roachboy

i wasn't going to touch this issue, but this afternoon a column appeared in the washington post that rehearsed the positions being taken by all the usual populist rightwing talking heads on the fact that npr fired juan williams....and it has a transcript of williams' remarkably stupid interaction with bill o-reilly that got him fired.

it's just really clear from this how the right works at the moment:

Under God: Sarah Palin, citing Juan Williams' firing, says it's time to 'defund' NPR - Elizabeth Tenety

i think this speaks for itself.

here's npr's weblink on this:

Juan Williams: My Words Were 'Not A Bigoted Statement' : The Two-Way : NPR

and here a washington post overview:

washingtonpost.com


it seems to me that there are several things that converge on this matter.

from conservative-land, the williams thing turns is another occasion to repeat its main identity politics memes, to renew the old "culture war" that has served them so well in displacing political speech away from statements about the world and onto statements made by conservatives about their version of the world as they prefer to imagine it exists.


but out in the wider world, it seems that this is being conflated with a free speech question.

is this one?

freedom of speech means you cannot be prosecuted for statements you make short of shouting fire in a theater.
it does not mean that there are no consequences to speech acts.
it simply means those consequences are not legal.

but there are news organizations which are conflicted. for example, you can read editorials in the washington post that argue npr acted too quickly.

this seems a guild response, like people are thinking that they could say something stupid at any point, just explode with pent-up stupid, and loose their jobs.

is that a freedom of speech matter?

what do you think?

is this an issue for you at all?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

samcol

I don't think it's a freedom of speech matter from the bill of rights standpoint as he's not facing charges for his speech.

However, it kinda goes against the idea of free speech. I consider this in the same boat as an employer firing someone for the type of political bumper sticker they have.

It's not a freedom of speech issue, but it looks pretty bad on NPR's part.

____

some more thoughts: why doesn't NPR drop the minuscule amount it indirectly gets from federal funding? then this becomes a non issue really.

also why is what he said even remotely offensive? honestly i think it's a normal reaction when you look at the bombardment of security at the airport with all the big brother warnings on the loudspeakers and the constant threat level warnings. that combined with reports of the government daily that says al qaida plans to attack blah blah blah...

it doesn't take a racist to be afraid of a muslim on a plane when we are getting bombarded with this propaganda. and i'm saying this as a person who doesn't even believe radical muslims attacked us on 9/11 (yup a tr00fer).

__________________
It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

Cimarron29414

Psst: your company can fire you for things you do in public which they believe reflects poorly on their judgement of employing you. Once hired, you are not guaranteed a job, regardless of the stupid things you say in life.

If I went to a bar with a company shirt on, got drunk, got arrested, got my mug shot put on the news in my company's shirt - uh, yep, I'd be fired. It just works that way, and thank God it does.

I understand what Juan was doing - giving an overly honest and very personal glimpse into his knee jerk reaction upon seeing something that makes him uncomfortable. But, that's why God gave us lips - to keep those impulsive thoughts in our heads and our person safely employed. In my household, we call it "the filter". The filter is good.

Upon reading the story that he was fired, I thought to myself, "Fox will hire him by the end of the week." It was the end of the day, actually.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

filtherton

I know I'm not the first to say this, but it's interesting how the usual suspects have reacted to his firing compared to how they reacted to the firing of Helen Thomas. I guess Williams is lucky he didn't say anything bad about Jewish folk.

I don't think that NPR should have fired him. I thought that the idea behind NPR is that it's listeners were intelligent enough to consider ideas on their merits and not whether the idea's proponent is scared of people who dress funny on airplanes.

Seems to be working out well for him though. I can't imagine NPR could match his new Fox salary.

Rekna

Does NPR even receive federal money? I don't think they do.

Tully Mars

I think it's like 10% federal and 6-8% other governmental funding (cities, states etc...)

For the record I don't think Williams should have been fired for stating his opinion. I think it was stupid and honestly not very logical. I think if terrorist get on a plane with ill intent they're going to be doing their best to blend in and not be in "Muslim garb."

The rights been calling to end federal funding for NPR and PB for years, doesn't report stuff the way they'd like.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

mixedmedia

I don't care much one way or the other about his firing. It happens to good people every day for much less public, much less stupid behavior. (And yes, I am saying that what he said was stupid.)
It's not as if he had no options afterward (as it has been pointed out). Plus, a lot of people that never heard of Juan Williams will now call him a personal hero for having the courage to be a moron on Fox News. Everybody wins.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Rekna

Was the right equally upset when Rick Sanchez got canned for degrading Jews?

Baraka_Guru

So....how about that culture war, eh?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

hiredgun

After reading that exchange, the thing that most pops out for me is that O'Reilly claims that the "whole nations" of (let's focus on) Afghanistan and Pakistan are essentially terrorist. A curious point of view when you consider that a hundred times more Pakistanis and Afghans have been killed by Islamic fundamentalists in recent years than non-Muslims who have been killed by them.

On-topic, I actually am a little surprised at NPR's reaction. I will go out on a limb and say it was an overreaction. Look at what Williams actually says in this interview. First, he actually lays out two points of view - first he seems to argue that there is a war on Islam, but then he counters O'Reilly by making the common analogy to Timothy McVeigh.

Second, look at the content of his statement. He isn't really saying that he's scared of Muslims (he goes on to point out that there are good Muslims - not exactly a mind-blowing realization, but hey). He says he worries when he sees people riding airplanes 'who choose to identify first and foremost as Muslims' even on airplanes. I disagree with his assessment but in the scheme of things, this is actually not far out there in unreasonable-land.

So I'm not sure whether the reason I react this way is because of where Williams sits in the _spectrum_ - that is to say, normalizing for American public opinion, he is actually on the liberal side, even if that says more about our politics than it does about Williams - or maybe because I just don't see the public good in marginalizing 'centrist' voices when there are so many crazies out there commanding huge audiences. Don't we need every voice we can get?

No, I don't see it as a free speech issue.

roachboy

for what it's worth, i am not personally interested in juan williams at all. i thought what he said was stupid and banal---he's not the baroque lunatic racist that o-reilly is---instead at worst he seems a tepid bigot. i think he got fired mostly for saying something that was really stupid. and i never cared for his npr work. i thought him consistently lame and one-dimensional.

what interested me, in a kinda train wreck way, was the attempts to reframe this from an uninteresting incident involving a b-list celebrity into a confrontation in the conservative identity-reinforcement spill-over zone they call the "culture wars"---which forced palin and gingrich and the other main populist spokesmodels to (a) defend the statement is if it were racist and not merely stupid, (b) invoke the right's paranoid huntington thesis worldview to justify the racism, make it "necessary" by making it a "Recognition of Reality" then (c) to duplicate that us/them business (war on "terror" anyone?) with another version in which the Heroic Conservatives Stand Up to Political Correctness and Say What It Is.

by the end of that, juan williams being an idiot is framed as an act of heroism of some bizarre kind.
and this topped with a nice steaming bonbon in the shape of a canard about that bastion of "leftism" npr---which had it's insitutional spine removed during the reagan period because of the exact same canard-usage, but hey, whipping boys are whipping boys and why let go of a good one?

the frame that these conservatives place around this is really curious.
you have to wonder what they're thinking.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

hiredgun

I see. Well, it _is_ election season, and nothing gets out the vote like imagined persecution

aceventura3

Van Jones was fired (or resigned) because liberals feared Fox News. Shirley Sherrod was fired because liberals feared Fox News. Juan Williams was fired because liberals feared Fox News. Seems to be a pattern of liberals firing liberals because of a fear of Fox news. Seems to be a pattern. Perhaps, liberals should stop fearing Fox News.

And I still don't get the liberal obsession with Palin and now the obsession with O'donnell. Was this a non-issue with Roach until Palin Tweeted about it??? Is that the take from his OP?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

first off, that nonsense about "fearing fox news" is as astonishing a misstatement of reality as i've ever seen you manage, ace.

do you warm up before you invert the world? like stretch or something? or do you just plunge right into it?



i'm interested in conservative rhetoric, ace & this is an instances that allow us to peer into the populist right's hall of mirrors and see a new little self-enclosed and self-enclosing rhetoric machine taking shape, watch it being cobbled together through the recycling and reorganizing of already existing conservative-memes. in that respect, palin is a collage-maker.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Call'em the way I see'em. Even Rev. Wright was kicked to the curb because liberals feared Fox News. How else do explain this stuff. 20 years with a spiritual guider and Fox News starts a campaign, and the association ends. Van Jones, was who he was, never pretended, never changed before or after getting fired. Introduce Fox News and he gets kicked to the curb. Ms. Sherrod, not even given a change to drive home was fired on the roadside because liberals feared the release of a report on Fox News. William's debating with a host on Fox News after a blow up on The View with the same Host, shares a personal feeling (not really why he got fired, was it?), gets fired.

I am astonished you don't see it!

I plunge right in. The world needs to warm up for me.

Williams should have been a hero to liberals for going toe to toe with the folks at Fox News. Williams has respect in conservative circles because of it. Like O'Rielly said last night, getting fired by NPR was good for his career. I have seen Williams on Fox news more than I have seen Palin - I would argue Williams' voice is as influential as Palin's. William, being liberal, talking to conservatives can actually change views. Palin talks to an audience that shares her views - liberals obsessed with her don't get that.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

Ace, you're plainly confused if you think the cowardly PR moves taken by the Obama admin have anything to do with liberalism. Williams' firing makes sense within the context of the explanation given by NPR. I still don't agree with it.

supersix2

When I first saw he was fired for comments he made I thought "hmm that doesn't seem right" then I realized I can't just go around and say whatever I want to say with respect to my job and expect to remain employed.

Then I saw what he actually said...and I thought "wow how stupid, he is afraid of people dressing a certain way." I think it was stated above but I had the same thought, a radical Islamic terrorist intent on committing a terrorist act in the US is most likely going to dress like American's in order to blend in and not be hassled.

Honestly, I have no problem with what NPR did, Juan Williams should realize that as a "journalist" he can't just say whatever he feels like and expect his agency to keep him employed. Unless of course you work for Fox News then you can say as much stupid stuff as you want and they will probably give you your own show.

aceventura3

The context of NPR's explanation??? That was as clear as mud to me. Then we have the quotes from the NPR CEO about Williams personally attacking him - it seems to me the focus was his appearances on Fox News, the liberal war against Fox News, and not what he said.

The PR on all these matters, described, follow a pattern including the Williams termination - an over-reaction to Fox News. I think it is a reaction based on fear. I believe if Williams said the very same things on MSNBC or another outlet, this would have been a non-issue to them. So, if Fox News is the key variable, why?

---------- Post added at 06:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:11 PM ----------

No doubt NPR has the right to fire Williams, and Williams certainly is not going to be harmed, but the key question remains - why do liberals fear Fox News to the point where they act in irrational ways?

I would challenge you on this. If I got to know you, I bet I can find some things that will create a fear response, even in areas where you bear no conscious prejudice. Terminating people for sharing their honest views, seems wrong to me and I would rather live in a world where people openly discuss biases that they have. Seem to me that is the only way to get beyond them.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

i think it's good that npr fired williams for being a bonehead.

williams today is saying that he thinks npr wanted to fire him for a while because he appeared regularly on the infotainment shows like o-reilly and hannity.
i think it's the case that being involved with fox news undermines one's credibility.
espousing views like those espoused on fox news undermines one's credibility.

so i agree with npr. you cannot possibly be taken as neutral or even competent if you espouse the views that williams did. because they're stupid.




it's a shame that we are saddled with a conservative movement in the states that is able to survive only by undermining the standards of rational discourse.
not all views are the same simply because they're views.


of course, the response will be the same as it always is. conservative politics are not about the world, it's not about being coherent or making things better...it's about conservatives being victimized.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

liberal war

One can't help but laugh (considering there is no such thing as a liberal war) while conservatives shadowbox with those nasty old fire-breathing liberals. (I hear they eat babies, too!)

Yet we are the ones who are afraid.

Poor Juan Williams. Not just a dumbass who said something, not only stupid, but also irrational on television and lost his job over it, but a casualty in the liberal war against Fox News.

Bring in the violins, Percy Faith. I think this one needs a soundtrack.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

ottopilot

What do you call it? Philanthropy?

It looks like liberal George Soros has been busy in the past week with millions in open donations (finally not hidden or laundered) to liberal organizations like NPR, the HuffPost, Media Matters, etc. for the specific purpose to bring down FOX News (Yes, he was very specific in the terms of usage for these "donations")...


... instead of the usual funneling money through organizations like the Tides Foundation. Until now, George's war of progressive influence has been chiefly distributed by Tides Foundation and various "other channels":

It's good to see the Liberal war... I mean Philanthropy... is no longer lurking in the shadows.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

filtherton

Yep, clearly George Soros is using the Harlem Children's Zone and the Center for Sensible Marijuana Policy (and apparently some of his relatives) as secret proxies in his war to take down Fox News.

The addition of visuals doesn't make your argument any more compelling, especially when it's obvious that you haven't taken the two seconds required to actually understand them yourself.

aceventura3

I guess a difference is that conservatives know when they are in a war (figurative, if that actually need be said). I use the term "liberal war" because I am a conservative. I think the current "war" started during the Clinton administration and escalated when Bush "stole" the election from Gore. The events in this period have not been a laughing matter.



Yet, you don't explain the actions of liberals. Why dump Wright? Why dump Jones? Why dump Sherrod? Why dump williams? In each case, and there are more, liberals over-react in an irrational manner based on fear in my opinion. If it is something else, tell me what it is.

I am betting most did not hear the full segment on the Factor. Just like with Sherrod, Williams was actually making and taking an anti-discriminatory stand. He was the liberal voice arguing against O'Riely's position.

NPR simply does not have the guts to give the real reason they fired Williams. Liberals everywhere should be offended and respond in his defense similar to the dependable position Sherrod had.

{added} I looked for a clip of the full segment that I could attach here, the best I found was a link:

http://radio.foxnews.com/2010/10/21/...#axzz1384Jvrsz

Like I stated, Williams should be honored by liberals (and like I stated many conservatives, including me, have a great deal of respect for Williams) for going toe to toe with O'Reilly on this issue and I think some of you here who came to conclusions before seeing the whole segment should be embarrassed.

---------- Post added at 10:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:19 PM ----------

In the 80's "community outreach" was commonly used by big time drug dealers to gain favor in the inner city. This is not a new tactic used to control people.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

Well, I guess since it happened in the 80s then it's what's happening now. No need to think too deeply on this. Just go with our guts. It's best not to define our opinions in too much detail. That way, when potentially conflicting details emerge we can adapt without having to rethink our original perspective.



I suppose his contributions to "Quantum Fund" mean he's part of the vast conspiracy that's tried to kill James Bond in the last two Bond movies.

aceventura3

I don't know what he is trying to do, I only point out the fact that the tactic of giving out a few turkey's during the holiday season or doing some superficial stuff for the poor urban children is a tactic that has been used for nefarious reasons. His intentions may be pure, I don't know, but let's not be naive.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

And you may have raped and murdered a young girl when you were younger. It's happened before, it'll happen again. I'm not saying that you did or you didn't, just that doing so is in the scope of possible human behavior and that you are a human. So, you know, maybe you did. I'm agnostic on it, though. Because if it was the case that you raped and murdered a young girl, it isn't like you'd admit it on here. Nope, you's probably just deny, deny, deny. Shit, that's what I'd do. I just think that it's entirely possible that you did rape and murder a young girl.

Willravel

That meme will never get old.

boink

Roachboy
but this is exactly what fox news does every day, is is their raison detre. rattling the cages of the misinformed masses with more misinformation, to the point of inciting violence even. it's near criminal if it's not out and out criminal. fox exists for the sole reason to control the minds of the sheeple to the benefit of the PTB/corporate oligarchy.

so for Juan Williams to lower himself to engage in the yelling matches that go on on fox is pretty egregious behaviour imho. he's imho giving fox a talking point to badmouth NPR in return for a 2+ million dollar contract, in effect selling out the American public for a fat payday. how fucking foul is that ?!? he fucking BELONGS on fox the fucking piece of dogshit. he did this on purpose, he knew he was crossing the line. how could he not ? I would even go as far as saying fox, and all it's owners/backers would be more than happy to buy themselves a fake controversy like this just to argue defunding NPR.
I had no idea Juan was even on fox, I don't care what he said on fox, the mere fact he apears on this network is totally unacceptable and damning to his credibility. pay me and you can stick your had up my ass and I'll say anything you want all day long. I can't watch fox cause it makes me angry, which is is exactly what they they work to do. rattle people up with a bunch of false hyperbole, I know when I'm being conned/played and if Juan wants to join these scumbags, fuck him.

if there is a hell, I hope he burns in it. he is a very cheap whore indeed.

Juan Williams
well Juan maybe they arn't fucking AMERICANS !?!? or maybe only Americans take plane rides ??? whatever man, it's all a bunch of scripted crap.

filtherton
yeah, NPR listeners, but he's moonlighting on the fox clown show yapping at FOX watchers, who don't think like NPR listeners. he's validating all the fears of the ignorant. fanning fires of irrational thought. this is the total antithesis of NPR. fuck yes fire him.

__________________
when you believe in things that you don't understand, then you suffer. Superstition ain't the way.

mixedmedia

To assume that you are right, Ace and otto, I would have assume that there is a real, substantial and influential liberal power base in this country with the power to make changes in accordance with liberal ideals. I don't. I don't think there has been that kind of liberal power in the US in many decades. I think there is just exactly the amount of liberal influence in this country that is allowed to be. Therefore the idea of a 'liberal war' against anything having to do with the status quo is ridiculous.

It seems to me, rather, that conservatives need a 'liberal war' (much like they have needed all wars) in order to keep moving the status quo further and further to the right - which is exactly what is happening.

Honestly, I don't know who George Soros is. I hear the name a lot, but I don't know anything about him. But I do know that one man promoting powerless progressive organizations in an effort to dilute the preponderance of corporate-sponsored conservative influence in the US does not a 'liberal war' make. It's ridiculous.

You guys are suckers. But hey, you're on the winning team so have fun fighting your 'liberal wars' and 'socialist threats.' I won't be playing along.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

supersix2

I'm not sure I can answer this question...I can't really believe that liberals fear fox news. I think this may just be a perception of certain people...but then again perception is reality so sure why not, liberals fear fox news.

The problem I have with Fox is just how blatantly terrible they are. I used to watch Fox news a few years ago when it was a little more reasonable but it has gotten way out of hand now. There is no journalism there it's just people spouting off their own gut feelings about stuff and making it seem like a news story. Just report the facts of the story and leave it at that. I'm tired of all news agencies really, give me the facts relevant to the event and move on.


Look I'm not saying I don't have my own personal prejudices about certain people...but if I were a journalist on a news network I would have to be careful about what I say so I don't influence others with my prejudices. NPR may have certain standards for its employees and if they feel an employee is no longer living up to their standards because of that person's actions or words then they have the right to fire that employee. Any other job is going to have similar codes of conduct.

I could face disciplinary action in my job if I talk on my cell phone while driving on official company business or driving a car provided by my company. That's a fairly intrusive policy, but guess what...I don't have a right to a job its a privilege to have a job and if my company, who pays for my health insurance doesn't want to assume the risk of me driving and talking on my phone then they have a right to make that policy.

I don't know if talking about biases is the only way to get beyond them, I think it is a way as long as its done responsibly. But I also think its a way to pass biases on to other people. I mean look at all the anti-Muslim stuff that goes on on Fox News, those people aren't constructively talking about biases against Muslims. Instead they are doing it in a way that promotes and enhances people's biases. Even comments like "there are good Muslims out there" aren't constructive because that makes it sound like Muslims are inherently bad and its rare that you will find a good one. That might not be what you meant when you said it but statement does contain some negative connotation. It's like when people would say a black person was "very well spoken" making it sound like most black people are illiterate and aren't expected to speak well. It's bullshit and it should stop, especially in news organizations.

roachboy

ace, your pet theory about "liberal fear" is like the sweet nothings you might say to yourself as you choke the bishop.
"o you are so big and so mighty, you are so manly and strong. all others tremble before you...."

it takes that kind of imagination to conflate contempt for faux news and everything it stands for with fear.
a hyperbolic imagination.

i think fox news is a travesty. it was a significant professional blunder for williams to appear on fox programs because on the one hand it legitimates a conservative travesty and on the other it undermines the professional image of npr as a news gathering organization.
williams did not appear on news programs, but rather on sideshows like hannity and o-reilly. frequently.
it just happened that this time he said a boneheaded thing and got himself fired.

there's no "fear" in that and the action is far from "irrational".

williams will likely fit right in with the other idiots at fox.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

My response was to your quote here:

The position you took along with the sarcasm, seems naive to me. I don't know what the guy's intent is, you don't either - but to pretend that his motives can't be for reasons other than altruism prompted me to respond. I used the example given because of direct personal experience. I did some anti-gang volunteer work with some pre-teens in a drug and gang infested area. The kids idolized the gang leaders and big time drug dealers. They thought those were the guys that cared, even-though those were the same guys who would kill their fathers, turn their mothers out, and get them killed - all because those guys may have given them some shoes, or fixed up a b-ball court, etc. And, yes I am a cynic.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Baraka_Guru

Apparently, he was warned before about making statements on other media outlets that he wouldn't make on his own.

It seems he crossed the line---again---and was fired for it this time.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

On a serious note, the use of the term "war" is a bit of hyperbole, however given two opposing ideologies regardless of which one holds the advantage there is an inherent conflict. The conflict is going to be most volatile where the two meet. For example DADT - 20 years ago the issue was not a volatile issue for most now it is. another one of those issues that is prominent today is the conflict between religious freedom and religious extremist who want to exploit those freedoms in the context of 9/11 and Muslims. Hence the problem with the Juan Williams termination. Was he terminated for honestly having conflicted feelings, feelings shared by many, or was he terminated because he shared those feelings? It is my view that unless people can openly talk through issues, those issues can never be resolved. Also, in my view another one of those issues is the irrational response liberals have to Fox News. Williams was in the lions den, so to speak, and he held his own he made a difference. More liberals should take this approach rather than doing what they do.

If true, why does Obama single out Fox News and other conservative outlets. If liberals are above the conflict why do they over-react? Why doe some members in Congress want to restrict conservatives on radio or as they would say offer balance? Seems to me they are trying to put up a good fight.

---------- Post added at 04:12 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:07 PM ----------

I don't think it is possible for a journalist or anyone else to ignore their personal biases and be truly objective. Do you?

I have listened to NPR and they clearly have a left bias, they are not objective. what standards are we really talking about?

---------- Post added at 04:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:12 PM ----------

I gave what I thought. I illustrated the pattern I see. I gave the conclusion I drew from the information available to me. If you disagree, or have a different point of view, share it.

Like imagination is a bad thing???The ability to see what is not clearly evident has often served me well, try it. It does take courage to share with others what you can see but others can not. It will subject you to ridicule, but I must say, when the image becomes clear to everyone and you where the first to see it - it is a good feeling.

Who knew Williams did work for NPR? Who cared? However, him being on Fox News was meaningful.

---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:23 PM ----------

And now perhaps tax payers will get their say and end any public funding.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

you assume that "taxpayers" agree with you, ace.
i pay taxes.
there's lots and lots of people like me who pay taxes and support npr.
i would wager alot more like me than there are people like you who work through conservative talking points.


for those talking points to make any sense, the idea that williams was fired for being conservative has to hold.
but that is fucking lunacy.
he was a conservative on npr.

he was fired for being a bonehead.
but apparently conservatives think they're entitled to be boneheads, to say bonehead things.
if there's pressure not to be a bonehead, conservatives are oppressed.

that's the argument you're effectively making, ace.

it's really kinda funny.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

FoolThemAll

They do it - Obama especially - because Fox News is an easy target that even Republicans and Conservatives will view with disdain. They overreact - when they do - because it's an easy way to be less ambiguously in the right, to get more people on your side. Make a bigger issue of the issues on which a greater number of people will concur. You'll get more good press out of attacking Fox News than, say, attacking something less known or more respectable.

It needn't be fear at all. Opportunism is enough reason.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

No one is pretending that he can't have ulterior motives. Everyone has ulterior motives. The thing is that we don't really have any evidence either way. Your issue is that you assume that I'm being naive for not insinuating something for which I have no evidence. I admit it, I think that it is unlikely that Soros views contributions to the Harlem Children's Zone as a viable means of waging war on Fox News. That doesn't make me naive. It makes me sane and rational. What power does the Harlem Children's Zone have over Fox News?

Furthermore, if Soros were attempting to buy off poor people (as you seem to be insinuating that he is, or at least that he might be, you don't know, but you know that he could so it's obviously worth mentioning as though it's plausible), the fact that he contributes to a limited-scope child educational program in New York would be one of the least efficient ways of doing so. So your "I'm not sayin', but I'm just sayin'" accusatory nonsense doesn't even make sense.

ASU2003

I pay taxes and I support a free press. One where they need to back up their statements with actual, provable facts. Not opinion polls of selected groups, what certain politicians think is wrong without explaining what their solution is and how it would be better, and what the talking heads they pay way too much think.

Anyway, I would be more worried about having to sit next to these people on the plane...

aceventura3

Are you making the point that they don't need any government funding? If people support it, what is the big deal?

---------- Post added at 04:27 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:25 PM ----------

I noticed you used the word "more" above, why?

Williams did not give a ranking nor did he quantify his amount of worry. Are you actually different than he is on this point?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

roachboy

so wait....now finding fox news contemptible is another example of how the big bad Other victimizes conservatives? that's hilarious.

this following on a spirited defense of ones god-given right to be stupid from the ultra-right punditocracy.

this conservo-tempest just gets better and better. hopefully there's a kind of maximum velocity of stupid that it'll achieve such that the right eats itself before the midterms.

and no, ace. that's not even close to what i was arguing.

private ownership should be eliminated from broadcasting.
the airwaves (and cable-waves) are a public good.
information is fundamental to a democracy.
information relay is too important to be left to the likes of rupert murdoch or roger ailes.
private capital is the blight at the center of the american media apparatus.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite