Left/Right Segregation - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

genuinegirly · 10-15-2010, 04:38 PM

Do you think there's social or economic segregation in the United States today?

After noticing the left vs. right argument developing in other threads, I thought it would be interesting to see where people go with this one. Here is an opinion article from Politico which discusses the great divide that continues to develop between US communities. The article mentions a few different ways we are becoming more and more divided:
- Life expectancy
- Education
- Political stance
- Suicide rates
- Military service
- Linguistics (regional dialects)

A few questions to get the conversation moving:
Have you lived in two or more very different parts of the country?
Have you moved from one side of town to another?
If yes, what socioeconomic differences have you noticed along the way?
Are there specific differences you have noticed from one community to another?
Do you feel that you are dissimilar from those living in the next town or neighborhood?
What other divisions have you seen?
Do you think technology is deepening these differences, or smoothing them?
How much change do you expect to see in regards to these inequalities within your lifetime?

I have included snippets of Bill Bishop's opinion below, but you can find the full article with this link: Opinion: United? Yes. But ever more divided - Bill Bishop - POLITICO.com

Quote:

United? Yes. But ever more divided
By: Bill Bishop
October 14, 2010 04:45 AM EDT

From 1961 until the early 1980s, all U.S. counties reported that their residents were living longer. Communities weren’t equal, though; some people were healthier. But differences in life expectancy from place to place were getting smaller. Everyone expected that the next generation would grow older than the one before. In 1983, however, this steady, nationwide improvement stopped. By 2000, the difference in the average age at death between the best and worst counties increased to more than 18 years for men and nearly 13 years for women.

If it seems the country can’t find a mutual purpose these days, one reason is that, each year, Americans have less in common with fellow citizens who may live only a few dozen miles down the road. In the ’70s, for example, people with B.A. degrees were “remarkably evenly distributed” across U.S. cities, according to Harvard economist Edward Glaeser. Over the past 40 years, however, people with college degrees have clustered in some places, while huge swaths of the country have seen their share of college-educated residents shrink. Places that gained college graduates now have higher incomes and lower unemployment than those that lost their share.

Since the mid-1970s, the U.S. political system has also polarized geographically, as most counties became increasingly Republican or Democratic in presidential elections. The 2008 election, billed as the end of the red and blue division, found the nation more politically segregated than in 2000 or 2004.

Suicide rates in rural and urban counties have been diverging since the ’70s. Rural counties continue to send a disproportionate number of their young into the armed forces. Linguist William Labov told National Public Radio that “the regional dialects of this country are getting more and more different.”

The past generation has produced a new kind of segregation. We’re divided not just by how we look but by the way we live and what we think. And, like all segregation, this kind has consequences. There is now a mismatch between our problems and our politics. The issues we face — global warming, worldwide recession, international conflicts — grow larger while our public lives shrink to the size of our specific communities.

I'll add my perspective in a bit.

StanT · 10-15-2010, 06:02 PM

Have you lived in two or more very different parts of the country?
rural Northern Illinois and rural Colorado

Have you moved from one side of town to another?
Only in a small town.

If yes, what socioeconomic differences have you noticed along the way?
My income stayed the same, the socioeconomics around me didn't vary much.

Are there specific differences you have noticed from one community to another?
Crazy assed liberals here, crazy assed conservatives there

Do you feel that you are dissimilar from those living in the next town or neighborhood?
I'm a bit odd, regardless of where I live. I like living in the mountains, any town in 15-20mi would work for me. Boulder is a bit odd by anyone's definition.

What other divisions have you seen?
I see differences, not divisions.

Do you think technology is deepening these differences, or smoothing them?
Neither and both, technology is just a tool.
Technology allows me and others to do a job that used to be restricted to an urban environment from a rural home. To some extent, I'm averaging out the employment options.

How much change do you expect to see in regards to these inequalities within your lifetime?
I'm not sure I agree with the premise. For the most part, the differences that I see are voluntary.

Willravel · 10-15-2010, 09:02 PM

Have you lived in two or more very different parts of the country?
Yes.
Have you moved from one side of town to another?
Yes.
If yes, what socioeconomic differences have you noticed along the way?
Economically, folks around my new neighborhood have jobs and consistant incomes that put them around middle class for the area whereas my previous location was full of students, only a fraction of whom had jobs and most of whom spent the majority of their money on school.
Are there specific differences you have noticed from one community to another?
Nothing important. People may espouse different political ideologies or a particular religious sect may be more prevalent in one location than the other, but really people are surprisingly similar. Most of the divides we talk about are imposed by things like the media and aren't real.
Do you feel that you are dissimilar from those living in the next town or neighborhood?
No.
What other divisions have you seen?
I've been to a few of the political rallies, I've been to a few town halls and I've been to a few churches. It seems like divisions are a lot easier to see when you seek out your own kind to establish community based on exclusion. Work and school, on the other hand, seem to do the opposite, at least in my experience. I found out I have a ton in common with Latino immigrants when I did landscaping in high school. I found out I had a ton in common with Japanese kids my age when I was in high school. I found out I have a lot in common with Germans and British when I got my first job out of college. I suppose if I concentrated I could see the differences, but they weren't readily apparent in friendships.
Do you think technology is deepening these differences, or smoothing them?
Both. Technology is a tool that can be used to bring people together or rip them apart. It's how people use it that determine its consequence.
How much change do you expect to see in regards to these inequalities within your lifetime?
More for a while, then less.

Plan9 · 10-15-2010, 10:55 PM

It is a fact that there is socioeconomic segregation in the United States. It isn't debatable.

The research has been done, books have been written, and crappy films by Michael Moore illustrate it.

When I was in school I took an entire class on nothing but the origin and current state of socioeconomic segregation in America.

Somebody help me out; what is the point of the poll? It's like doing a poll asking if the world is round or flat.

Perhaps the correct question should be, "Are you comfortable with the state of socioeconomic segregation in the US?"

...

I'll add my answer list in a bit.

roachboy · 10-16-2010, 06:04 AM

there is considerable and quite brutal class stratification in the states.
one of the characteristics of american class warfare is spatial segregation.
an instrument of this class warfare is local control of funding for public education, which makes of it a mirror of the class structure.
another characteristic of american class warfare is a hegemonic discourse that requires people say there isn't class warfare in america.
this is not the same as a political divide that separate the right from other people.
that works more along the lines of how one thinks about or analyzes class stratification, whether one look, say, for institutional factors or decides that poverty is the fault of the poor so fuck em.
with that said...

A few questions to get the conversation moving:
Have you lived in two or more very different parts of the country?

boston, suburban philadelphia, upstate new york, san fransisco, paris, philadelphia, chicago, a small coastal town in massachusetts

Have you moved from one side of town to another?
yes.

If yes, what socioeconomic differences have you noticed along the way?

everyplace has a particular geography of class.
philly's was in block by block, so the range was visible.
chicago more segregated in every sense.
the bay area still more (think east palo alto)
the geographies of class are pretty complex internally as well.
so there's alot that could be said about any given community.

Are there specific differences you have noticed from one community to another?
see above.

Do you feel that you are dissimilar from those living in the next town or neighborhood?

they are there. i am here. when i go there there is here and when they come here here is here. so no. not really. as human beings? wait. i'm confused.

Do you think technology is deepening these differences, or smoothing them?

depends on the technology you're talking about
99% of the households in the united states have a teevee.
so there's a technology access to which cuts across class that creates division because of the stupid ways it treats information and, by extension, people. but on the other hand, if everyone is a Consumer, everyone is the Same.
but i assume you're talking about computer and net access, yes?

How much change do you expect to see in regards to these inequalities within your lifetime?

well, the past 30 yeas have seen the most radical concentration of wealth yet recorded anywhere thanks to conservative economic policies. so anything is possible.
but i think that unless politics changes and people wake up to the fact that class stratification is class war and is, most of all, unnecessary, is the result of policy and/or organization choices, inequality will continue to get worse.

snowy · 10-16-2010, 07:51 AM

I live in a college town of about 50k+ people (variable depending on students). The median home price here is outrageous even after the bubble burst. There are distinct lines between neighborhoods here, yet because of the presence of the university, some of this is muddled close to campus. Student housing segues into larger homes for professors and other professionals. Our top two employers in town are the university and Hewlett-Packard, both of which contribute to a high standard of living here. The presence of both attracts other engineering and science firms to set up shop here. Despite this, there are some lower income neighborhoods, and they are very well-known to residents here. If you say, "Little Mexico", the other person will invariably reply, "You mean that neighborhood off of Highland?"

I grew up in a small town and then moved to the suburbs of Portland as a teenager. In my suburban town, there are distinct geographic boundaries between neighborhoods where people of a certain income range and skin color don't live. When we moved there, we were warned that white people did not go into x and y neighborhoods after dark because of the presence of Latino gangs. The same went for downtown, but thanks to economic revitalization and a major transportation project, this is not the case anymore. While there, I moved from a neighborhood considered lower middle class to one considered upper middle class, as we were renting a house for a while before we found one to buy.

roachboy is right: wherever you go, there are differences in socioeconomic geography. Even in my small town growing up, a classmate once asked where I lived. "I live on the Island," I replied. "Oh--the Island. You must be rich!" he declared. "Only rich people live out there." I didn't realize at the time just how comfortable my family was compared to others, but now when I go back there, I do notice that the houses for the upper middle class there are all the ones with views--those with less live on the interior of the island.

I think roachboy covered a lot of what is going on and what can happen. I had to write this prediction about political power in this country for a class last spring, and it's very similar: just as wealth is very concentrated in this country, so is political power, and they are hand-in-hand with each other. So long as this is the case, nothing will change.

View Poll Results: Are left/right politics linked to the socioeconomic segregation in the US today?
Yes	1	33.33%
No	2	66.67%
Other	0	0%
Voters: 3. You may not vote on this poll

10-15-2010, 10:55 PM	#4 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	It is a fact that there is socioeconomic segregation in the United States. It isn't debatable. The research has been done, books have been written, and crappy films by Michael Moore illustrate it. When I was in school I took an entire class on nothing but the origin and current state of socioeconomic segregation in America. Somebody help me out; what is the point of the poll? It's like doing a poll asking if the world is round or flat. Perhaps the correct question should be, "Are you comfortable with the state of socioeconomic segregation in the US?" ... I'll add my answer list in a bit. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 10-15-2010 at 10:59 PM..

10-16-2010, 06:04 AM	#5 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there is considerable and quite brutal class stratification in the states. one of the characteristics of american class warfare is spatial segregation. an instrument of this class warfare is local control of funding for public education, which makes of it a mirror of the class structure. another characteristic of american class warfare is a hegemonic discourse that requires people say there isn't class warfare in america. this is not the same as a political divide that separate the right from other people. that works more along the lines of how one thinks about or analyzes class stratification, whether one look, say, for institutional factors or decides that poverty is the fault of the poor so fuck em. with that said... A few questions to get the conversation moving: Have you lived in two or more very different parts of the country? boston, suburban philadelphia, upstate new york, san fransisco, paris, philadelphia, chicago, a small coastal town in massachusetts Have you moved from one side of town to another? yes. If yes, what socioeconomic differences have you noticed along the way? everyplace has a particular geography of class. philly's was in block by block, so the range was visible. chicago more segregated in every sense. the bay area still more (think east palo alto) the geographies of class are pretty complex internally as well. so there's alot that could be said about any given community. Are there specific differences you have noticed from one community to another? see above. Do you feel that you are dissimilar from those living in the next town or neighborhood? they are there. i am here. when i go there there is here and when they come here here is here. so no. not really. as human beings? wait. i'm confused. Do you think technology is deepening these differences, or smoothing them? depends on the technology you're talking about 99% of the households in the united states have a teevee. so there's a technology access to which cuts across class that creates division because of the stupid ways it treats information and, by extension, people. but on the other hand, if everyone is a Consumer, everyone is the Same. but i assume you're talking about computer and net access, yes? How much change do you expect to see in regards to these inequalities within your lifetime? well, the past 30 yeas have seen the most radical concentration of wealth yet recorded anywhere thanks to conservative economic policies. so anything is possible. but i think that unless politics changes and people wake up to the fact that class stratification is class war and is, most of all, unnecessary, is the result of policy and/or organization choices, inequality will continue to get worse. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-16-2010, 07:51 AM	#6 (permalink)
snowy Kick Ass Kunoichi Location: Oregon	I live in a college town of about 50k+ people (variable depending on students). The median home price here is outrageous even after the bubble burst. There are distinct lines between neighborhoods here, yet because of the presence of the university, some of this is muddled close to campus. Student housing segues into larger homes for professors and other professionals. Our top two employers in town are the university and Hewlett-Packard, both of which contribute to a high standard of living here. The presence of both attracts other engineering and science firms to set up shop here. Despite this, there are some lower income neighborhoods, and they are very well-known to residents here. If you say, "Little Mexico", the other person will invariably reply, "You mean that neighborhood off of Highland?" I grew up in a small town and then moved to the suburbs of Portland as a teenager. In my suburban town, there are distinct geographic boundaries between neighborhoods where people of a certain income range and skin color don't live. When we moved there, we were warned that white people did not go into x and y neighborhoods after dark because of the presence of Latino gangs. The same went for downtown, but thanks to economic revitalization and a major transportation project, this is not the case anymore. While there, I moved from a neighborhood considered lower middle class to one considered upper middle class, as we were renting a house for a while before we found one to buy. roachboy is right: wherever you go, there are differences in socioeconomic geography. Even in my small town growing up, a classmate once asked where I lived. "I live on the Island," I replied. "Oh--the Island. You must be rich!" he declared. "Only rich people live out there." I didn't realize at the time just how comfortable my family was compared to others, but now when I go back there, I do notice that the houses for the upper middle class there are all the ones with views--those with less live on the interior of the island. I think roachboy covered a lot of what is going on and what can happen. I had to write this prediction about political power in this country for a class last spring, and it's very similar: just as wealth is very concentrated in this country, so is political power, and they are hand-in-hand with each other. So long as this is the case, nothing will change. __________________ If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

10-15-2010, 06:02 PM	#2 (permalink)
StanT © Location: Colorado	Have you lived in two or more very different parts of the country? rural Northern Illinois and rural Colorado Have you moved from one side of town to another? Only in a small town. If yes, what socioeconomic differences have you noticed along the way? My income stayed the same, the socioeconomics around me didn't vary much. Are there specific differences you have noticed from one community to another? Crazy assed liberals here, crazy assed conservatives there Do you feel that you are dissimilar from those living in the next town or neighborhood? I'm a bit odd, regardless of where I live. I like living in the mountains, any town in 15-20mi would work for me. Boulder is a bit odd by anyone's definition. What other divisions have you seen? I see differences, not divisions. Do you think technology is deepening these differences, or smoothing them? Neither and both, technology is just a tool. Technology allows me and others to do a job that used to be restricted to an urban environment from a rural home. To some extent, I'm averaging out the employment options. How much change do you expect to see in regards to these inequalities within your lifetime? I'm not sure I agree with the premise. For the most part, the differences that I see are voluntary.

10-15-2010, 09:02 PM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Have you lived in two or more very different parts of the country? Yes. Have you moved from one side of town to another? Yes. If yes, what socioeconomic differences have you noticed along the way? Economically, folks around my new neighborhood have jobs and consistant incomes that put them around middle class for the area whereas my previous location was full of students, only a fraction of whom had jobs and most of whom spent the majority of their money on school. Are there specific differences you have noticed from one community to another? Nothing important. People may espouse different political ideologies or a particular religious sect may be more prevalent in one location than the other, but really people are surprisingly similar. Most of the divides we talk about are imposed by things like the media and aren't real. Do you feel that you are dissimilar from those living in the next town or neighborhood? No. What other divisions have you seen? I've been to a few of the political rallies, I've been to a few town halls and I've been to a few churches. It seems like divisions are a lot easier to see when you seek out your own kind to establish community based on exclusion. Work and school, on the other hand, seem to do the opposite, at least in my experience. I found out I have a ton in common with Latino immigrants when I did landscaping in high school. I found out I had a ton in common with Japanese kids my age when I was in high school. I found out I have a lot in common with Germans and British when I got my first job out of college. I suppose if I concentrated I could see the differences, but they weren't readily apparent in friendships. Do you think technology is deepening these differences, or smoothing them? Both. Technology is a tool that can be used to bring people together or rip them apart. It's how people use it that determine its consequence. How much change do you expect to see in regards to these inequalities within your lifetime? More for a while, then less.