The end of Operation Iraqi Freedom - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Willravel · 08-18-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

US ends combat operations in Iraq
The US has ended combat operations in Iraq two weeks ahead of a self-imposed deadline

The last brigade of US combat has withdrawn from Iraq, bringing combat operation to an end in a war that has lasted more than seven years and claimed the lives of more than 4,000 US troops.

The brigade left the country in the early hours of Thursday morning, two weeks before an August 31 deadline for the end of Operation Iraqi Freedom pledged by Barack Obama on taking office.

Over the course the week soldiers from the 4th Stryker brigade, 2nd Infantry Division, have driven hundreds of vehicles from Camp Victory near Baghdad airport to Camp Virginia in Kuwait.

Their withdrawal brings to an end a controversial and bloody operation that began with the American "shock and awe" bombing campaign of Baghdad in March 2003, and saw the US military endure some of the heaviest fighting it had seen for a generation.

Captain Christopher Ophardt, a spokesman for the 4th Stryker Brigade of the 2nd
Infantry Division, said the last of the unit's vehicles will cross the border into Kuwait early on Thursday.

Iraqi concerns

Most of the brigade's 4,000 soldiers have been driving out of Iraq in their armoured Vehicles, with a few hundred members staying behind to finish administrative and logistical duties. They will be flying out of Baghdad later on Thursday.

About 50,000 US troops will remain in the country in an advisory capacity, helping to train Iraqi forces in a new mission codenamed Operation New Dawn, which will run until the end of 2011.

Al Jazeera's Rawya Rageh reporting from Baghdad said many Iraqis are concerned that Iraqi security forces are still lacking in terms of training and equipment, and particularly in intelligence gathering.

"Years of sanctions have made the population politically-savvy and many Iraqis are questioning the timing of the draw down five months after national elections ended in a political vacuum," our correspondent said.

"Many were worried about the possible increase in sectarian violence and the ability of Iraqi security forces to take the lead in the absence of US troops, and don't think this is a good time to be left alone without US military backing."

Al Jazeera's Josh Rushing reporting from the Iraq-Kuwait border said the question now is whether the drawdown, which is being touted as a milestone, will go down in history as the end of the war or the beginning of a period of violence.

"This is not the end of it. In fact, it will be a long military relationship between the United States and Iraq long after all US troops have pulled out of Iraq as scheduled in December next year.

"Iraqi military are using all US equipment and so their security forces will still need US trainers, technicians and links with the US military industrial complex in the years ahead."

Our correspondent said while the western media and history will consider the US war in Iraq a success, most people will be waiting to see what happens in the country in the coming months and years.

Campaign promise

Obama had made ending the Iraq war a central policy of his presidential campaign, and after taking office he immediately announced plans to bring combat troops home by the end of August this year.

He inherited around 144,000 troops in Iraq, 30,000 fewer than the peak levels of 2007, when the Bush administration ordered a so-called surge in an effort to improve Iraq's atrocious security situation.

After becoming president, Obama immediately set about transferring responsibility for security from the US military to Iraqi forces, gradually pulling US troops out of the country.

Generals approved the final tranche of the drawdown in May this year, despite a rise in violence following inconclusive parliamentary elections in March.

The war, which began when a US-led coalition invaded Iraq in 2003 and overthrew the government of Saddam Hussein, has proven costly to America both in terms of dollars and human life. Operation Iraqi Freedom has cost more than $900 billion and seen 4,415 US troops die.

That figure has been dwarfed by the number of Iraqi civilians killed, estimated at more than 100,000, according to the Iraq Body Countwebsite.

At the height of the violence in 2006, Iraq was brought to the brink of all-out civil war between the Sunni and Shia communities, with bombings and sectarian murders becoming a deadly part of day-to-day life many parts of the country.

In 2007, President Bush ordered a controversial surge of more than 30,000 combat troops in an effort to improve the situation.

That, combined with improved cooperation with the Iraq's Sunni population, led to a substantial improvement in security that allowed US troops to begin transferring responsibility to Iraqi forces.

'Too Early'

While the end of combat operations will be welcomed by many ordinary Iraqis, US troops leave behind a country with a far from certain future.

Iraq has had no government for the past five months following the elections, and the security situation remains volatile, with a sharp spike in civilian deaths in July underlining the fragility of the situation.

Concerns have been raised that the US is pulling out of the country too soon, most notably by Lt Gen Babaker Zebari, Iraq's most-senior army officer, who warned last weekthat his forces would not be ready to take control of security until 2020.

Zebari predicted that "problems will start after 2011", referring to the Obama administration's deadline for the full withdrawal of US troops from Iraq.

In a graphic illustration of his point, a blast this weekat an army recruitment centre in Baghdad left at least 60 people dead and more than 100 wounded, in one of the worst attacks to hit Iraq for months.

The Obama adminstration has defended its plans to withdraw from Iraq, insisting that it is satisfied with progress in the country, despite recent setbacks.

Source

It seems like only yesterday when the previous president announced an end to combat operations in Iraq. Unfortunately, it wasn't yesterday, but rather over 7 years ago, under a banner which brazenly and incorrectly read "Mission Accomplished". Since then, Iraqi casualties have possibly been as high as 1.2 million or more (accurate casualty estimates are virtually impossible between restriction of access and lies from the military and government; the 1.2m number is based on a study by Opinion Research Business survey), along with thousands of coalition deaths and the changing of Iraq from a functional state under a tyrannical ruler to a third world country with millions displaced and a civil war which is largely due to the foolish disbanding of the Republican Guard. al Qaeda and other radical fundamentalist organizations used the destabilization as an opportunity to move into Iraq, something Saddam Hussein, despite all of his horrific actions, prevented. The United States, which was more popular than ever because of sympathy for 9/11, managed to use up any political capital we had and have subsequently become hated and again verified as imperial and colonial. The current price tag for the war stand at around $742b, with more being spent every day.

While combat missions are officially over, over 50,000 US troops will be staying in Iraq, but not in combat roles but rather in support roles for the still-inadequate Iraqi police forces.

This doesn't feel like a victory. This doesn't even feel like relief. Relief, imho, would have been never going in, or pulling out as soon as it was discovered there were no WMDs or links to al Qaeda. Relief would have been extensive investigations and prosecution for lying us into an unnecessary war of aggression. There's nothing in what happened to prevent the next Iraq invasion, which is quite obvious based on the fear-talk coming from Washington about Iran and it's nonexistant (according to the IAEA) nuclear program.

I wish I could celebrate today. I really do.

dlish · 08-18-2010, 08:42 PM

i remember the day Dubya announced a resounding victory in military operations for the US troops in Iraq. It seems a distant memory with everything thats happened in the last 7 or so years.

The americans leave achieving nothing of the 3 things declared in Bush's speech for the start of the war. Quite namely "to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger".

What they will be leaving behind is a political vacuum, a military vacuum, and a nation riddled by sanctions which makes for fertile ground for Al Qaeda militants. I cant wait for Iraqi War III

i wish i could celebrate the liberation of my iraqi brothers, but sadly we have nothing to celebrate but a grim future. the next few months will be critical. i just hope some of the neighbouring states will come to Iraq's aid. I know Iran will...

ottopilot · 08-25-2010, 08:44 PM

Just some FYI regarding the "last combat forces" exiting the Iraqi theater...

The US has been simultaneously deploying substantial "training" forces back to Iraq which include full armor battalions, expeditionary forces, special ops, infantry and more. Switching "combat troops" with "training forces" is simply an unfortunate bait-and-switch (hope-and-change?) to appease the President's hacked off base before the November mid-terms. Sorry to say, but we are in Iraq for the long-run.

Willravel · 08-25-2010, 09:34 PM

Really the only way to get out of Iraq at this point would be to elect a liberal. So it's impossible.

Tully Mars · 08-26-2010, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Just some FYI regarding the "last combat forces" exiting the Iraqi theater...

The US has been simultaneously deploying substantial "training" forces back to Iraq which include full armor battalions, expeditionary forces, special ops, infantry and more. Switching "combat troops" with "training forces" is simply an unfortunate bait-and-switch (hope-and-change?) to appease the President's hacked off base before the November mid-terms. Sorry to say, but we are in Iraq for the long-run.

Yep, this is nothing more then telling the people what they want to hear.

Baraka_Guru · 08-26-2010, 04:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Really the only way to get out of Iraq at this point would be to elect a liberal. So it's impossible.

Silly Willravel....there are no liberals in U.S. politics....

Up here in Canada, we're still working on getting out of Afghanistan with conservatives in power. Even then there is hope because it's a minority government. Yet, we will still be there in support roles in typical Canadian fashion. Many of us want combat operations to end. We're used to doing the support roles.

powerclown · 08-26-2010, 05:59 AM

3 words: World's Largest Embassy.

roachboy · 08-26-2010, 06:09 AM

it's funny reading these snide posts from our conservative comrades who in the main supported these bush administration gifts that keep on giving and the neo-con foreign policy ideology that made these debacles seem somehow reasonable, something edifying to get into, something with a Point, the sort of thing a military hegemon should be doing in order to solidify its military hegemon-ness. and iraq, why that was sold in the way world war 1 was, just a little military adventure kids, nothing to worry about, the locals will be grateful.

remember?

and iraq is a gift that keeps on giving. it'll keep on giving for a long time, sadly. thanks, george w bush and everyone who supported him.

Baraka_Guru · 08-26-2010, 06:15 AM

Hey, it helps keep the American economy going. And you can just get the taxpayers to pay for it.

It's not just the world's largest embassy, or even just a gift that keeps on giving..... it's the world's largest stimulus package that keeps on giving.

roachboy · 08-26-2010, 06:27 AM

nothing like spreading a little drone democracy to make a conservative feel all hopey-changey.

plus the conservative patronage system gets to have money thrown at it and no-one complains about throwing money at it. i mean, 23% of federal expenditures, 4.9% of gdp last year, more money than the rest of the world combined the right has plowed into their buddies in the military.

edit: it's been obvious to anyone who's looked past the confines of the pentagon's pool of relatively soporific images for the advantageous packaging of war that ending operations in iraq was not going to be as simple as one would perhaps have imagined.

Baraka_Guru · 08-26-2010, 07:04 AM

Perhaps it's not so much an ending of operations as it is a closing of curtains on them...clearing the stage for the next play.

The show must go on.

Derwood · 08-26-2010, 07:06 AM

Obama's decision to re-deploy troops is being trumpeted by some of my peers as some sort of victory for Bush, as Obama has (in their words) "admitted that Bush's policies on Iraq were right and has quickly gone back on his promise to withdraw troops from the area".

I feel like banging my head against a wall.

roachboy · 08-26-2010, 07:16 AM

right. apparently in the odd little world of conservativeland, a place i had hoped dead and gone, if you're a republican and your fuck up is giant enough it ceases to be a fuck up at all. it's misunderstood. it's mis-characterized. it's the tea party. and complexity that's encountered in trying to deal with your giant fuck-up that's so big it isn't one any more isn't complexity. it's vindication.

i just wrote that down to see if i could follow the steps.

Plan9 · 08-26-2010, 07:39 AM

Mild threadjack:

I'd say WWI and Iraq are a little different. Something to do with the motivation of the players involved, the technology... stuff like mass media.

I can get down with generalizations, though. My Norman Rockwell life is almost entirely made from them. Especially the part I spent in uniform.

Iraq. It remains a fun little vacation spot and there are plenty of numbnuts out there willing to "go fight for their country." Whatever that means.

roachboy · 08-26-2010, 07:45 AM

just to straighten out this particularly bizarre confusion:

if you remember from the factoid books, when parallel numbnuts in 1914 were sent out to fight for their various motherlands, all were assured that "the boyz will be home by christmas."

which i think was assumed to refer to christmas of that same year, 1914, and not to another that would be 16 million dead, 21 million wounded and 4 years later.

Plan9 · 08-26-2010, 07:54 AM

Gotcha. I was just worried about scale. I mean, comparing WWI to the GWOT is like comparing the hydrogen bomb to a fart.

powerclown · 08-26-2010, 08:42 AM

Yes, the United States is there for the long haul, China too and many others. I am curious to see if the 'Iraqis' will ever be allowed to actually govern themselves and what kind of government takes shape. I was reading that China just signed something like a 5 billion oil contract and in a sense control southern Iraq for the foreseeable future while the local landlords are kept happy with a few sheckels thrown their way every now and then. Energy, don't you know. Everyone needs it to keep their hamster collections in line. And the internet where they are closely monitored and allowed to blow their collective loads all day everyday then fall back asleep and meanwhile the mainstreets across America remain calm and tranquil. Getting sleeepy....

Baraka_Guru · 08-26-2010, 09:02 AM

Well, yeah. It was just a matter of time before the key players in Iraq started donning the golden straitjacket.

mixedmedia · 08-26-2010, 09:40 AM

I was always skeptical of the 'pulling out of Iraq' claim - all sexual innuendo gladly (and appropriately) accepted here.

What's more, I've never been convinced that it is the right thing to do. Sure it would be ideal if we were never there, but that doesn't mean necessarily that the next best thing is to leave and pretend we were never there. Support the war or not, it is our fuck-up and it is a fuck-up that is far from resolved. Granted, maybe there are ways we can improve things there without a military presence, but I've seen no reason at this time to believe that the security situation for the people wouldn't devolve even more if our troops were removed. And ultimately those are the people forefront in my mind when I think about the Iraq situation.

Plan9 · 08-26-2010, 09:43 AM

The whole "pulling out" thing is deceptive. It refers only to the military. The US and its allies will still be there in the form of both government agencies and private companies. They're just trying to get the big green bull out of the ceramics shop because when it breaks stuff it makes big nasty headlines.

I disagree with the idea that we should continue to fuck the Iraqi chicken. Sometimes you fuck up and cut your losses. There is no way to make this a positive. Whether we leave now or a decade from now won't prevent the inevitable civil war. In the throes of "freedom," Iraqis will beat on each other.

We didn't belong there. We don't belong there. And it doesn't take a genius to see that they're not buying what the Great White Cowboy is selling.

mixedmedia · 08-26-2010, 09:48 AM

I don't get you. Feds and private companies are going to do what?

Plan9 · 08-26-2010, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

I don't get you. Feds and private companies are going to do what?

Provide infrastructure and security through training, logistics, staffing. Basically the stuff they've been doing the whole time Big Army has been there.

Baraka_Guru · 08-26-2010, 10:34 AM

That's what I was referring to with the golden straitjacket.

mixedmedia · 08-26-2010, 10:34 AM

You went back and added more later. You're always doing that, lol.

I can't share your 'cut your losses' attitude.
1) We are talking about people dying by the hundreds of thousands and I'm not apt to be dismissive of that fact
2) I'm not talking about selling democracy or any of that horseshit and if any entity is is going to be 'selling a Great White Anything" it's apt to be 'feds and private companies' rather than the military
and 3) How can you be sure that we will be cutting any losses by leaving?

roachboy · 08-26-2010, 11:15 AM

http://www.kentlaw.edu/jicl/articles...k_Calaguas.pdf

this is an interesting article that provides a brief overview of private contractors/mercenaries in their post-cold war form(s) and the arguments for and against using them. it's not definitive but it's one of those useful quick read secondary processing bits...

just to situate the discussion.

o yeah: you can find some infotainment on p. 18 of that article which indicates just how much mercenaries and other private "defense" contractors like republicans.

and the entire dynamic results in (again) this problem being raised:

http://wikileaks.org/wiki/CIA_Red_Ce...22,_2_Feb_2010

which is (to repeat) what happens if people either figure out that the u.s. in fact is or begin to see the u.s. as exporting "terror"?

uh oh.

because one of the central "advantages" of these mercenaries is that the allow countries like, for example, the united states to circumvent those pesky legal restrictions on actions and adherence to those "quaint" human rights rules. unless of course they get caught. think abu ghraib. but i digress.

Tully Mars · 08-26-2010, 11:36 AM

How can anyone be sure we're not cutting losses by leaving? Sorry we've done all we can there in my opinion and staying is nothing more then a never ending, very expensive game, of whack-o-mole.

It's a shit hole now and it will likely be a shit hole when we leave, whether that's in the next year or the next 20 years.

Baraka_Guru · 08-26-2010, 12:29 PM

Is it too late to put Saddam and the Ba'ath Party back?

I mean...why were we so against a secularist ruling party in the Middle East during a war against Islamic terrorism?

mixedmedia · 08-26-2010, 12:41 PM

The question of whether it is a shithole is irrelevant.
Was your objection to the war based simply on the legal aspects of it, or was it also based on the fate of the people living in said shithole?
Maybe the reason for my divergence is that my opinion on how this debacle should culminate is not primarily swayed by America's best interest. It's just not the way I think. Particularly since we are the ones who turned a basically functioning nation that we really didn't have to think about into a 'shithole' that we will never forget about.

Wes Mantooth · 08-26-2010, 12:57 PM

And since we are largely responsible for Iraq becoming a bigger shithole what responsibility do we have towards making it a better shithole?

I can see both sides of it. Should we just wash our hands of it, back off and let the Iraqis work towards getting there own nation back on track (they probably couldn't do any worse) or do we bare some responsibility in fixing what we messed up in the first place? What "fixing it" means is entirely up for debate of course.

I'm not sure Iraq is something we can just shrug our shoulders over, leave and pretend the last couple of decades never happened. Our finger prints are all over what Iraq has become today.

Plan9 · 08-26-2010, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

How can anyone be sure we're not cutting losses by leaving? Sorry we've done all we can there in my opinion and staying is nothing more then a never ending, very expensive game, of whack-o-mole.

It's a shit hole now and it will likely be a shit hole when we leave, whether that's in the next year or the next 20 years.

Whoa, deja vu.

loquitur · 08-26-2010, 02:20 PM

I find it relevant that (according to, IIRC, a poll in the NY Times), something on the order of 62% of Iraqis don't think the Americans should be leaving so soon.

I'm a believer in "you broke it, you fix it."

Plan9 · 08-26-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

I find it relevant that (according to, IIRC, a poll in the NY Times), something on the order of 62% of Iraqis don't think the Americans should be leaving so soon.

I'm a believer in "you broke it, you fix it."

You mean: "Let's fix it so good that it'll stand on its own after we leave," right?

That's like saying a little kid on a bicycle will stay upright on the first solo try without training wheels.

If we're going to "fix" Iraq, it'll be helping them fix themselves. Duh, I know. We're doing it to the degree we can and the degree they'll accept it.

It's messy. And expensive.

And at the end of the day they're poor people that enjoy our money and have far too many groups vying for power the second we leave.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixedmedia

You went back and added more later. You're always doing that, lol.

1) We are talking about people dying by the hundreds of thousands and I'm not apt to be dismissive of that fact
2) I'm not talking about selling democracy or any of that horseshit and if any entity is is going to be 'selling a Great White Anything" it's apt to be 'feds and private companies' rather than the military
and 3) How can you be sure that we will be cutting any losses by leaving?

I know; I'm sorry. I edit the hell outta my posts. It's the ADHD. That and I'm the least intelligent person posting in this thread so I have to tread water.

re1) People have been dying when we weren't there (Kurds), when we showed up ("war," insurgents), and they're gonna die when we leave (insurgents, civil unrest, etc.). You can cry for them or you can just deal with the fact that it's a shitty time for Iraq. When is it ever enough?

re2) We're always selling democracy. It's what we do. We set up puppet governments that are largely unpopular with the locals because they're not primitive thugs down with some holy scripture handed down from a make-believe supernatural being. We're McDonalds and blue jeans and they dislike us for reasons that I can't really argue with... we go sticking our obese fingers into their dirt pies whenever they do something we don't like.

re3) I know we're cutting losses by leaving. How much money do we spend every day simply transporting food and water in Iraq?

Willravel · 08-26-2010, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

I'm a believer in "you broke it, you fix it."

We broke Iran by overthrowing the democratically elected government. And we've broken Saudi Arabia by supporting their monarchy. And we've broken Palestine by backing Israel even when they commit terrible acts. And we've broken Mexico with the war on drugs. Columbia, too. We've broken Cambodia. We broke countless Pacific islands. If you really do believe this "you broke it, you fix it", what about all of the other places we've broken? Should we fix Panama? Or Haiti? Or Cuba?

Plan9 · 08-26-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

We broke Iran by overthrowing the democratically elected government. And we've broken Saudi Arabia by supporting their monarchy. And we've broken Palestine by backing Israel even when they commit terrible acts. And we've broken Mexico with the war on drugs. Columbia, too. We've broken Cambodia. We broke countless Pacific islands. If you really do believe this "you broke it, you fix it", what about all of the other places we've broken? Should we fix Panama? Or Haiti? Or Cuba?

So what if it is true?

roachboy · 08-26-2010, 06:23 PM

well, the reality is that the approach is to create an administrative transfer of the iraq theater (in all senses) from explicit combat to some kind of peculiar Ädvisory role in a context where this transfer obviously does not coincide with a deceleration of violence--although it's also possible that the level of violence has been kind of constant but the way its reported has varied it's hard to say really---either way it seems clear that there's a volatile-to-civil war-ish situation and the space seems really open for private military contractors to play a predominant war. i hope this doesn't become a mercenary theater. like angola or something. bad bad bad. very bad.

but looking at how the situation appears, quite apart from what i might prefer to see, i'm kinda unclear about what is happening.

what i wonder about is the extent of political opposition to the drawdown whatever you call it within the military and the possibility that brings with it of variation in what's being reported, so the creation of the impression that this is a strategically bad idea. part of the theater of public opinion dontcha know. i wonder the extent to which faction fights happen across information flows, don't you? makes watching the news kinda exhilirating. but i digress.

FuglyStick · 08-26-2010, 07:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

what i wonder about is the extent of political opposition to the drawdown whatever you call it within the military and the possibility that brings with it of variation in what's being reported, so the creation of the impression that this is a strategically bad idea. part of the theater of public opinion dontcha know. i wonder the extent to which faction fights happen across information flows, don't you? makes watching the news kinda exhilirating. but i digress.

At least you're consistent, RB.

mixedmedia · 08-27-2010, 03:00 AM

Seems he's not the only one.

Tully Mars · 08-27-2010, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by loquitur

I find it relevant that (according to, IIRC, a poll in the NY Times), something on the order of 62% of Iraqis don't think the Americans should be leaving so soon.

I'm a believer in "you broke it, you fix it."

Wonder what the poll was on invading before we invaded?

We can not "buy" friends in that region, at any cost. Currently we're sending some 50 million to Pakistan to help flood victims. Will they like us more after doing so? I highly doubt it. We'll still be the evil "American Satan" to much of the population.

To some degree I agree with you and thought Powell was right when he stated you break it you own it (probably not a direct quote, but close.) Was one of many, many reasons I thought it was a stupid idea to begin with. However we keep building and building and people there who hate us keep blowing up what we just built. Whether it's a building or an alliance, the goal of far too many there is to destroy what ever we do. I don't see any end to that, ever.

Baraka_Guru · 08-27-2010, 05:56 AM

It might seem silly at first, but if you make an analogy between American foreign policy and the current shifting structure of much of global society, you will see a very distinct difference.

Looking at communication, technology, and economy within the context of education, industry, business, and even leisure time, you will see a huge shift has occurred since the 20th century. What was once a predominantly limited, one-way (or at best two-way), and authoritarian structure for all of these things are now moving into the realm of open source, collaborative, and citizen-driven structures.

Whereas before research, knowledge, power, and communication were controlled by the few, these things are now accessible and influenced by masses. The barriers to entry in most realms of human endeavor have dropped if not disappeared completely. We have citizen journalists, amateur scientists, and nationless (yet global) group politics all contributing to how we shape our individual societies and our international relationships. We now have more connections to politics, whether direct or indirect. The masses generally have more influence now than they ever have before.

If you take a look at the big picture, and look at the long view, you will see America's policies abroad as brontosaurian. The image of the unilateral, neoliberal, authoritarian superpower is looking rather dated. It looks as though it's about to enter an age in which it cannot survive. Much like the dinosaurs.

One argument behind why the dinosaurs died out is because they were too specialized. Look at the T-rex. It was probably the most devastating hunter in the history of biology. But it didn't survive. Why? Because it couldn't adapt fast enough to a changing environment. It was too good at what it did and not good enough at doing other stuff—the kind of stuff that was required to thrive in a changing world.

Is America like the T-rex? I dunno. Maybe I'm just being silly.

Tully Mars · 08-27-2010, 06:51 AM

T-Rex, not really. More like Rome.

08-18-2010, 08:42 PM	#2 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	i remember the day Dubya announced a resounding victory in military operations for the US troops in Iraq. It seems a distant memory with everything thats happened in the last 7 or so years. The americans leave achieving nothing of the 3 things declared in Bush's speech for the start of the war. Quite namely "to disarm Iraq, to free its people and to defend the world from grave danger". What they will be leaving behind is a political vacuum, a military vacuum, and a nation riddled by sanctions which makes for fertile ground for Al Qaeda militants. I cant wait for Iraqi War III i wish i could celebrate the liberation of my iraqi brothers, but sadly we have nothing to celebrate but a grim future. the next few months will be critical. i just hope some of the neighbouring states will come to Iraq's aid. I know Iran will... __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

08-25-2010, 08:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	Just some FYI regarding the "last combat forces" exiting the Iraqi theater... The US has been simultaneously deploying substantial "training" forces back to Iraq which include full armor battalions, expeditionary forces, special ops, infantry and more. Switching "combat troops" with "training forces" is simply an unfortunate bait-and-switch (hope-and-change?) to appease the President's hacked off base before the November mid-terms. Sorry to say, but we are in Iraq for the long-run. __________________ "It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

08-26-2010, 06:09 AM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	it's funny reading these snide posts from our conservative comrades who in the main supported these bush administration gifts that keep on giving and the neo-con foreign policy ideology that made these debacles seem somehow reasonable, something edifying to get into, something with a Point, the sort of thing a military hegemon should be doing in order to solidify its military hegemon-ness. and iraq, why that was sold in the way world war 1 was, just a little military adventure kids, nothing to worry about, the locals will be grateful. remember? and iraq is a gift that keeps on giving. it'll keep on giving for a long time, sadly. thanks, george w bush and everyone who supported him. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-26-2010, 06:15 AM	#9 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Hey, it helps keep the American economy going. And you can just get the taxpayers to pay for it. It's not just the world's largest embassy, or even just a gift that keeps on giving..... it's the world's largest stimulus package that keeps on giving. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-26-2010, 06:27 AM	#10 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	nothing like spreading a little drone democracy to make a conservative feel all hopey-changey. plus the conservative patronage system gets to have money thrown at it and no-one complains about throwing money at it. i mean, 23% of federal expenditures, 4.9% of gdp last year, more money than the rest of the world combined the right has plowed into their buddies in the military. edit: it's been obvious to anyone who's looked past the confines of the pentagon's pool of relatively soporific images for the advantageous packaging of war that ending operations in iraq was not going to be as simple as one would perhaps have imagined. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-26-2010 at 06:52 AM..

08-25-2010, 09:34 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Really the only way to get out of Iraq at this point would be to elect a liberal. So it's impossible.

08-26-2010, 05:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	3 words: World's Largest Embassy.

08-26-2010, 07:04 AM	#11 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Perhaps it's not so much an ending of operations as it is a closing of curtains on them...clearing the stage for the next play. The show must go on. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-26-2010, 07:06 AM	#12 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Obama's decision to re-deploy troops is being trumpeted by some of my peers as some sort of victory for Bush, as Obama has (in their words) "admitted that Bush's policies on Iraq were right and has quickly gone back on his promise to withdraw troops from the area". I feel like banging my head against a wall. __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

08-26-2010, 07:16 AM	#13 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	right. apparently in the odd little world of conservativeland, a place i had hoped dead and gone, if you're a republican and your fuck up is giant enough it ceases to be a fuck up at all. it's misunderstood. it's mis-characterized. it's the tea party. and complexity that's encountered in trying to deal with your giant fuck-up that's so big it isn't one any more isn't complexity. it's vindication. i just wrote that down to see if i could follow the steps. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-26-2010, 07:39 AM	#14 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Mild threadjack: I'd say WWI and Iraq are a little different. Something to do with the motivation of the players involved, the technology... stuff like mass media. I can get down with generalizations, though. My Norman Rockwell life is almost entirely made from them. Especially the part I spent in uniform. Iraq. It remains a fun little vacation spot and there are plenty of numbnuts out there willing to "go fight for their country." Whatever that means. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

08-26-2010, 07:45 AM	#15 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	just to straighten out this particularly bizarre confusion: if you remember from the factoid books, when parallel numbnuts in 1914 were sent out to fight for their various motherlands, all were assured that "the boyz will be home by christmas." which i think was assumed to refer to christmas of that same year, 1914, and not to another that would be 16 million dead, 21 million wounded and 4 years later. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-26-2010, 07:54 AM	#16 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	Gotcha. I was just worried about scale. I mean, comparing WWI to the GWOT is like comparing the hydrogen bomb to a fart. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

08-26-2010, 08:42 AM	#17 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Yes, the United States is there for the long haul, China too and many others. I am curious to see if the 'Iraqis' will ever be allowed to actually govern themselves and what kind of government takes shape. I was reading that China just signed something like a 5 billion oil contract and in a sense control southern Iraq for the foreseeable future while the local landlords are kept happy with a few sheckels thrown their way every now and then. Energy, don't you know. Everyone needs it to keep their hamster collections in line. And the internet where they are closely monitored and allowed to blow their collective loads all day everyday then fall back asleep and meanwhile the mainstreets across America remain calm and tranquil. Getting sleeepy....

08-26-2010, 09:02 AM	#18 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Well, yeah. It was just a matter of time before the key players in Iraq started donning the golden straitjacket. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-26-2010, 09:40 AM	#19 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I was always skeptical of the 'pulling out of Iraq' claim - all sexual innuendo gladly (and appropriately) accepted here. What's more, I've never been convinced that it is the right thing to do. Sure it would be ideal if we were never there, but that doesn't mean necessarily that the next best thing is to leave and pretend we were never there. Support the war or not, it is our fuck-up and it is a fuck-up that is far from resolved. Granted, maybe there are ways we can improve things there without a military presence, but I've seen no reason at this time to believe that the security situation for the people wouldn't devolve even more if our troops were removed. And ultimately those are the people forefront in my mind when I think about the Iraq situation. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-26-2010, 09:43 AM	#20 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	The whole "pulling out" thing is deceptive. It refers only to the military. The US and its allies will still be there in the form of both government agencies and private companies. They're just trying to get the big green bull out of the ceramics shop because when it breaks stuff it makes big nasty headlines. I disagree with the idea that we should continue to fuck the Iraqi chicken. Sometimes you fuck up and cut your losses. There is no way to make this a positive. Whether we leave now or a decade from now won't prevent the inevitable civil war. In the throes of "freedom," Iraqis will beat on each other. We didn't belong there. We don't belong there. And it doesn't take a genius to see that they're not buying what the Great White Cowboy is selling. __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake." Last edited by Plan9; 08-26-2010 at 09:54 AM..

08-26-2010, 09:48 AM	#21 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	I don't get you. Feds and private companies are going to do what? __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-26-2010, 10:34 AM	#23 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	That's what I was referring to with the golden straitjacket. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-26-2010, 10:34 AM	#24 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	You went back and added more later. You're always doing that, lol. I can't share your 'cut your losses' attitude. 1) We are talking about people dying by the hundreds of thousands and I'm not apt to be dismissive of that fact 2) I'm not talking about selling democracy or any of that horseshit and if any entity is is going to be 'selling a Great White Anything" it's apt to be 'feds and private companies' rather than the military and 3) How can you be sure that we will be cutting any losses by leaving? __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-26-2010, 11:15 AM	#25 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	http://www.kentlaw.edu/jicl/articles...k_Calaguas.pdf this is an interesting article that provides a brief overview of private contractors/mercenaries in their post-cold war form(s) and the arguments for and against using them. it's not definitive but it's one of those useful quick read secondary processing bits... just to situate the discussion. o yeah: you can find some infotainment on p. 18 of that article which indicates just how much mercenaries and other private "defense" contractors like republicans. and the entire dynamic results in (again) this problem being raised: http://wikileaks.org/wiki/CIA_Red_Ce...22,_2_Feb_2010 which is (to repeat) what happens if people either figure out that the u.s. in fact is or begin to see the u.s. as exporting "terror"? uh oh. because one of the central "advantages" of these mercenaries is that the allow countries like, for example, the united states to circumvent those pesky legal restrictions on actions and adherence to those "quaint" human rights rules. unless of course they get caught. think abu ghraib. but i digress. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 08-26-2010 at 11:28 AM..

08-26-2010, 11:36 AM	#26 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	How can anyone be sure we're not cutting losses by leaving? Sorry we've done all we can there in my opinion and staying is nothing more then a never ending, very expensive game, of whack-o-mole. It's a shit hole now and it will likely be a shit hole when we leave, whether that's in the next year or the next 20 years. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

08-26-2010, 12:29 PM	#27 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Is it too late to put Saddam and the Ba'ath Party back? I mean...why were we so against a secularist ruling party in the Middle East during a war against Islamic terrorism? __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

08-26-2010, 12:41 PM	#28 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	The question of whether it is a shithole is irrelevant. Was your objection to the war based simply on the legal aspects of it, or was it also based on the fate of the people living in said shithole? Maybe the reason for my divergence is that my opinion on how this debacle should culminate is not primarily swayed by America's best interest. It's just not the way I think. Particularly since we are the ones who turned a basically functioning nation that we really didn't have to think about into a 'shithole' that we will never forget about. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-26-2010, 12:57 PM	#29 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	And since we are largely responsible for Iraq becoming a bigger shithole what responsibility do we have towards making it a better shithole? I can see both sides of it. Should we just wash our hands of it, back off and let the Iraqis work towards getting there own nation back on track (they probably couldn't do any worse) or do we bare some responsibility in fixing what we messed up in the first place? What "fixing it" means is entirely up for debate of course. I'm not sure Iraq is something we can just shrug our shoulders over, leave and pretend the last couple of decades never happened. Our finger prints are all over what Iraq has become today. __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

08-26-2010, 02:20 PM	#31 (permalink)
loquitur Junkie Location: NYC	I find it relevant that (according to, IIRC, a poll in the NY Times), something on the order of 62% of Iraqis don't think the Americans should be leaving so soon. I'm a believer in "you broke it, you fix it."

08-26-2010, 06:23 PM	#35 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well, the reality is that the approach is to create an administrative transfer of the iraq theater (in all senses) from explicit combat to some kind of peculiar Ädvisory role in a context where this transfer obviously does not coincide with a deceleration of violence--although it's also possible that the level of violence has been kind of constant but the way its reported has varied it's hard to say really---either way it seems clear that there's a volatile-to-civil war-ish situation and the space seems really open for private military contractors to play a predominant war. i hope this doesn't become a mercenary theater. like angola or something. bad bad bad. very bad. but looking at how the situation appears, quite apart from what i might prefer to see, i'm kinda unclear about what is happening. what i wonder about is the extent of political opposition to the drawdown whatever you call it within the military and the possibility that brings with it of variation in what's being reported, so the creation of the impression that this is a strategically bad idea. part of the theater of public opinion dontcha know. i wonder the extent to which faction fights happen across information flows, don't you? makes watching the news kinda exhilirating. but i digress. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

08-27-2010, 03:00 AM	#37 (permalink)
mixedmedia has all her shots. Location: Florida	Seems he's not the only one. __________________ Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

08-27-2010, 05:56 AM	#39 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	It might seem silly at first, but if you make an analogy between American foreign policy and the current shifting structure of much of global society, you will see a very distinct difference. Looking at communication, technology, and economy within the context of education, industry, business, and even leisure time, you will see a huge shift has occurred since the 20th century. What was once a predominantly limited, one-way (or at best two-way), and authoritarian structure for all of these things are now moving into the realm of open source, collaborative, and citizen-driven structures. Whereas before research, knowledge, power, and communication were controlled by the few, these things are now accessible and influenced by masses. The barriers to entry in most realms of human endeavor have dropped if not disappeared completely. We have citizen journalists, amateur scientists, and nationless (yet global) group politics all contributing to how we shape our individual societies and our international relationships. We now have more connections to politics, whether direct or indirect. The masses generally have more influence now than they ever have before. If you take a look at the big picture, and look at the long view, you will see America's policies abroad as brontosaurian. The image of the unilateral, neoliberal, authoritarian superpower is looking rather dated. It looks as though it's about to enter an age in which it cannot survive. Much like the dinosaurs. One argument behind why the dinosaurs died out is because they were too specialized. Look at the T-rex. It was probably the most devastating hunter in the history of biology. But it didn't survive. Why? Because it couldn't adapt fast enough to a changing environment. It was too good at what it did and not good enough at doing other stuff—the kind of stuff that was required to thrive in a changing world. Is America like the T-rex? I dunno. Maybe I'm just being silly. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 08-27-2010 at 05:58 AM..

08-27-2010, 06:51 AM	#40 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	T-Rex, not really. More like Rome. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club