Mosque planned to be built near Ground Zero
 

I came across this article today on cnn.com and actually I heard my dad talking about this last week when I was on vacation. I really can't believe all of the angst and uproar surrounding this. I liked to think that people in this country weren't really this fearful and reactionary toward anything Muslim but that belief is slowly starting to fade the more and more I see.

Here's the link to the article In battle to build mosque near Ground Zero, opponents ask 'why there?' - CNN.com

Basically this group of American Muslims would like to build a Mosque in New York City in the area near where the World Trade Center used to be. The reactions of the opposition to this are at times downright racist. I can't believe it.


My thoughts on the whole thing is that there are plenty of regular Muslims out there who would simply like to practice their religion and culture without harming anyone or anything. Sadly a small radical group gives them a bad name. I really doubt the reaction would be this great if a Christian organization wanted to build a church or even a Jewish organization wanted to build a Synagogue near that site. But because it was a Mosque and radical Muslim terrorists were responsible this is all of a sudden a big deal. Opponents are trying to get legislation to block the construction by trying to declare one of the buildings there a historic landmark. In my opinion this flies in the face of everything America was founded on. These Muslims are Americans and should have the same rights to practice their religion freely without having a legal process blocking it.

Now I am speculating that no one would have an issue with this if it was another religions building, heck I doubt anyone would care if Burger King wanted to build something there...but I truly believe because it is a Mosque people are having serious heartburn over this.

Reading some of the comments people left in that article on CNN...it just makes sad for America that people can still be that bigoted.


I am trying to see the other side of this as well, I was not personally affected by the 9/11 attacks and I did not lose anyone in those towers, maybe I would feel differently if I had experienced a loss there. I do understand why those people might have an problem with it. However, they are merely expressing a human emotion due to their loss but that is why we have laws and a Constitution so that human emotion does not govern us. I believe in this case that allowing emotions to spill over into this issue we are denying this group of people their rights as Americans to practice religion free of persecution.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

The CNN comments are just trolls saying the most extreme thought possible to get a reaction. It's like that in every single CNN story, no matter what the issue.

They are not being persecuted, they're just being told to put it somewhere else. I don't see why they can't put the mosque in another, less controversial area. The leading imam says he wants this to be peaceful, but if he truly wanted that then he wouldn't even attempt to put his mosque there.

I realize that in an ideal world everyone should be free to put their house of worship wherever they want, but we don't live in an ideal world. I also realize that 99.999% of Muslims are against what the terrorists are doing, just as 99.999% of all Americans are the same way.

If you had a family member who was killed by an extreme Muslim, would you want to drive by a mosque every day on the way to work? I wouldn't want that, even though I know the true peaceful nature of Islam. Call me a hypocrite, but that's how it is.

Screw legislation... if they want to stop the building of the cultural center they need to pony up cash to buy it.

If they don't have the support of the people enough to put down their own cash they shouldn't have any right to get the state to stop it.

As for the whole "their religion spawned this!" b.s. argument, we should respect our own country enough to allow this to happen. Open tolerance of law abiding citizens is a cornerstone of our country, hatred and demagoguery is a staple of the fundies that caused 9/11.

Islamophobia'd!


Terrorism works.

I wish they'd stop calling the site "ground zero".

1000 internets to you, sir.

If you had a family member who was killed by a black guy, would you want to drive by a black church every day on the way to work? I wouldn't want that, even though I know the true peaceful nature of blacks. Call me a hypocrite, but that's how it is.

If you had a family member who was killed by a Jewish guy, would you want to drive by a synagogue every day on the way to work? I wouldn't want that, even though I know the true peaceful nature of Jews. Call me a hypocrite, but that's how it is.

If you had a family member who was killed by a NRA member, would you want to drive by a NRA office every day on the way to work? I wouldn't want that, even though I know the true peaceful nature of NRA members. Call me a hypocrite, but that's how it is.

Need I go on?

This is a free country. Anyone who thinks Muslims need to stay away from public places just because of 9/11 needs to seriously reexamine their commitment to foundational American values.

Here is what I find ironic:

Cordoba House is not really a mosque. It includes a prayer space, yes, but it's primarily a cultural center - and not even an exclusively Muslim cultural center. Take a look at their mission statement:

The entire Cordoba initiative seems to me to be exactly what the shrillest commentators have spent the last nine years claiming does not exist: a Muslim constituency genuinely and publicly devoted to tolerance and interfaith understanding.

So the choice of Lower Manhattan is meaningful; the whole point is to juxtapose a monument to understanding in the shadow of a scar of hatred and war.

Also, it's really not at ground zero, but a few blocks away on Park Place.

I think political opposition to this project is the cheapest, basest form of grandstanding, and I genuinely hope that the truth of the matter wins the day and calms the hearts of those who are sincerely upset.

""It would be a terrible mistake to destroy a 154-year-old building in order to build a monument to terrorism," one woman said." Yeah, I think that just about sums things up nicely doesn't it?

I find it sad that this is even an issue and I often wonder how many people really, truly value what this country stands for and the rights we've worked so hard to preserve. Its so easy to take freedom for granted when you're in the majority, your own rights aren't the ones being trampled and your not being told you have to leave because people find you and your way of life offensive merely because of association or are just too stupid to understand it. I don't know, I think a lot of people in this country just don't have the balls to live in a free society where everyone is treated equally, its too hard, too uncomfortable, too much fear of whats different, too easily offended, too fucking scared.

Maybe someday we as a whole will actually understand and appreciate what this freedom thing really means but when I read about stuff like this it sure sounds like a lot of people are still a long way from getting it.

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

as long as they're not wogs, niggers, spics or ragheads?

just how close is it really? cuz I mean unless it's like directly across the friggin street I suspsect this is much hype about nothing.

and cmon, it's been almost 10 years, build a bridge, get over it.

I think its a couple of blocks, Shauk, which makes it all that much worse in my opinion.

Then why not also build a church, a synagogue, a mosque, a buddhist monastery, a shinto shrine, a hindu temple, a rastafarian house, a greenpeace headquarters etc etc etc in a ring surrounding ground zero physically interconnected by hallways with trams and people movers and make it truly interfaith encompassing all religions and nationalities. Having just a mosque (a really big one too) seems too much like its having your cake and eating it too.

Is anyone stopping any other religious group from building in lower Manhattan?

I think India has the solution here in the form of the Lotus Temple.

http://luckypennies.files.wordpress....log.jpeg?w=450
(Image from Lucky Pennies blog)
....

I realize this post has already been seconded, but it really sums up the way I feel so well that it needed to be thirded

... but it's not a mosque? and it's open to all, like the Lotus Temple in the post below yours? Can you point to what you think could be offensive in their mission statement (quoted in my post)?

i dont see an issue with anyone building a place a worship wherever they want, as long as they are built in accordance with the zoning and planning regulations - it's fair game.


Pearl, my family was directly affected by the hezbollah-israeli war of 2006. my wife was in lebanon at the time, and she and her family went through hell with warplanes and bombings heard above, even in north lebanon. i lost contact with her for about a week because the israeli planes took out communication towers and bombed bridges. i had no idea if my wife was dead or alive.

Going by what you're saying, i should have an enraged hatred of jews. But i dont. in fact i'm a fan of many of our jewish TFPers here, and i wouldnt have it any other way. They didnt bomb my country, jewish warplanes did, and that a moral that americans need to realise when they apply this to themselves.

THAT's the difference between you and I.

I was going to chime in with some brilliantly funny and caustic comment, but I see that all of what would have been its main points have been addressed. Kudos Seaver, dlish.

This whole issue is so fucking ridiculous.

i agree with what hiredgun's said already in this thread.

its yet another non-issue from the conservative set.

I agree with Powerclown and especially like Freeload's example of the Lotus Temple.

I also am confused because those that say it's a non issue, how dare those racists (and it wouldn't be racism, it would be a religious prejudice... but I guess "racism" sounds better and it's use gets more attention)... and so on. I think this is more of a study on how the press controls the minds and thinking of those on the left.

Yet, I could almost guarantee, if some of these Left leaning news agencies such as CNN, Time, and so on found out a synagogue or Pat Robertson decided to put a huge Christian church there, these same people would be talking about how wrong, ignorant and prejudiced it would be to build such a thing.

Especially, if those news agencies brought out all these left leaning protest groups saying how this was a slap to the Muslim faith, and how dare they and how can there ever be peace when we allow racists and religious phobes to do such a thing.

If the Left can't step back and see their own hypocrisy and how the press controls their thinking... it will only keep getting worse.

All in the agenda and the perspective the press wants you to have. So easily led. (And no, the Right isn't much different, but right now I'm talking about the Left)....


My point is it's all in how the Left get their marching orders from the press. How the press spins it and the agenda pushing it. It seems watching thread after thread after thread here, the left doesn't really have much of a debate except regurgitating "racism" "some phobia" "old white ignorant angry men" "how dare you hate.... we hate but we have reason to because you are small minded".... the Left want to come off more intellectually superior and patting each other on the back because they slammed an opponent but never really debated the issue.... but it all boils down to the marching orders they get from their news.

The saddest part of all this isn't the debate over the mosque being there...and debate should be had. It's the fact that the press can so easily get the leftists to support without thinking and to attack mercilessly any thoughts outside of what they want....

Look at it this way... the Left say they are compassionate and try to understand (well in my day it was both sides) today it's whatever minority group is affected.... You don't care about the feelings of those who are being offended, instead you ridicule and berate them for those feelings.... Is that truly what you want in your heart, that kind of hatred? Again, if roles were reversed and it was Pat Robertson building a huge Christian Church and the press told you to fight against that... you would be what you hate right now.

I agree that it is a non-issue, contrived by those with little tolerance.

And, contrarty to powerclown's assertion, it is not a "really big one" (not that size matters), but it is a small mosque within a larger community center.

Oh, and Pan, I dont march to anyone's orders.

---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

Should the planners of the Cordoba House have met with 9/11 survivors and families? Perhaps.

But it is ignorance and intolerance that is the threat, not the Cordoba House.

As hiredgun pointed out and those who make claims of it being a "really big (mosque)" and "marching orders (for the left)" appear to ignore:

Hm...that doesn't sound like a monument to terrorism at all....


Okay, I understand that many in NYC carry a burden of pain when it comes to the events of 9/11. I'm sure there are several triggers that are particularly painful. Planes flying overhead, fireworks, seeing a Muslim in the street, etc.—I'm sure any or all of these could trigger post-traumatic stress. However, it appears the resistance to this cultural centre is based on this kind of emotional reaction. It's based on the fact that the attack was carried out "in the name of Islam." It was carried out with planes, and it happened to cause explosions and the collapsing of skyscrapers.

None of that should have much bearing on whether a group should build a community/cultural centre that will serve the city in several ways. That people are emotionally broken by a terrorist attack and that this centre is associated with Islam are the main reasons why there is opposition. I hear people in their outrage saying things such as "This is hallowed ground," or, "This is sacred ground," which to me is blatantly ignorant. It suggests to me that it is hallowed and sacred in that closed Christian context, where the dead should be respected and honoured and so those Muslims should be kept away from it, lest they disgrace the place and the memory of those who died. It suggests that Muslims cannot hope to sympathize or otherwise relate to those who died. It suggests that Muslims are outside of the shock, pain, and grief caused by 9/11. It marginalizes Islam. It blames Islam.

The centre itself is a positive force and it would be a shame if it gets blocked. I would even go as far as to say that it would be damaging to the city and to Americans as a whole. It would be giving in to Islamophobia and it would be a demonstration of the efficacy of terrorism. The blocking of this centre could very well mean an ideological victory for the likes of Al-Qaeda, where they could very well say, "Look at how American hegemony resists and marginalizes Muslim culture."

I would like to hope Americans are strong enough to bear this painful emotional recovery rather than let it get the best of them.

pan, do you seriously think the left would be upset if a church or synagogue was being built there instead? That's totally, totally nuts.

I would like to hope for the same thing as well, I know we're better then this....or at least I'd hope we are.

personally, I work in SoHo, and most of my time is spent in the Lower East Side where I live. I don't care if they build it or where they build it. Just fucking build the damned building already. I'm more outraged about that since the when the 10 year mark comes, it's still going to be pretty much a hole in the ground.

Yet there are many other buildings that have broke ground, been built, and people moved into them.

That pisses me off more than a mosque being built.

shit they just found a 1700 ship when doing my diging... that's going to delay it again.
18th-Century Ship Found at Trade Center Site

Did I say anything about the mission statement being offensive? I think that its your progressive synapses barking to attention like pavlovs dog drooling over the smell of a corned beef sandwich. I think the whole thing is tacky...why not build a 13-story Benihanas right next to Pearl Harbor, I love Benihanas.

I'm pretty sure he was asking you a question, rather than insinuating anything.

Good question. Why not? Lots of people like teppanyaki. Thirteen storeys might be a little much though. One or two would probably do, maybe three if demand warranted it.

I kinda understand what the objections are - the 9/11 terrorists acted in the name of Islam, and this is an Islamic house of worship. But that presumes the 9/11 terrorists were correct in how they were behaving under Islamic law. From what I understand, that is not necessarily correct. We should not allow the 9/11 hijackers to define matters for us. IIRC, a fair number of Muslims were killed in the WTC. I live in NY, and I encounter many Muslims every day - driving cabs, running news stands, selling fruit, etc. Those people are trying to live their lives just like everyone else. If they want to have a house of worship, they should have the same right as anyone else to put their house of worship wherever they want. I have a mosque near my home, and so far as I can tell they are very good neighbors -- and this in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, mind you. Gotta love America.

Some of the objectors have pointed to some objectionable stuff the imam of this proposed mosque has been involved with. Well, if he did stuff that's illegal, he shou.d be investigated. If not, then don't treat him differently than anyone else.

I find this to be a rather poignant discovery.
One that reminds us that time & history will keep on paving
over us, no matter how much we fuss about current slights,
& imagined phantoms.

Well because it's still Government property... but if it was private property and they had the cash to do it by all means.

Honestly all of this "it's too close!" is complete bs. It's Manhattan, throw a dart at the map and you'll be "only a few blocks" from ground zero.

I think if CNN found a group that would be highly offended by it, then without a doubt. Especially, if Pat Robertson were involved.

With a synagogue, I'm not sure... but I'm sure there'd be some group out the CNN would pick up on and use.

If this were either being built, there be cries of racism, how religiously intolerant not to put something there that ALL faiths could enjoy.

I believe that wholeheartedly. I believe that people on the left have been so manipulated and brainwashed by the press, the media and our own government they believe that everything America once stood for and the principles of this country that made us great are wrong, racist, intolerant, prejudicial and so on.... that when the reverse prejudices are used it is more than ok. Which makes me sick because intolerance no matter what you want to call it, is still very much intolerance and wrong.

A group of black panthers standing inside 50' of a polling place using racial epithets and banging batons is every bit as wrong as the kkk, jewish anti defamation league or anyone else doing it... but the Left make excuses for it being ok and how ignorant people are because "that is not what really happened".... lol but it is.

This whole race/religion/whatever the prejudice is being such a fucking issue keeps the country divided and from truly working on the real solutions to get us up again. Let's see this energy go towards figuring out how to bring businesses and manufacturing back so we have a tax base and employment again, lets see this energy used to stop defending the ultra rich while they ship jobs overseas.... let's see all prejudice end and let's move on.... but that ain't going to happen. As long as we can have one side playing prejudices against another for votes and to get agendas passed it'll never happen.

So YES, I believe it whole heartedly and in every fiber of my body... that if it were a jewish or christian house of worship... the press would be all over it and telling us how wrong it is. And that is just sad.

Hmm...what could possibly help...?

Oh, right:
There are already at least three churches in the same area (just as close or closer than the proposed site), so the idea would be kind of silly.

...

I'm always a little peeved by these "what if" inverse or otherwise contrasted scenarios, whether it's about Japanese restaurants or Christian houses of worship. It's a bit annoying because the situation isn't about the Japanese cuisine or Pearl Harbor or Christians, or even the minority liberal media.

Well, here's a "what if" for you all:

What if there were already a thirteen-storey mosque and cultural centre in that site since before 9/11? Would you support its forced removal/relocation away from the "sacred hallowed ground"?

I think my "what if" scenario is much fairer and sincere than the ones I've seen otherwise.

...

Why are you putting this here. If I were arguing against the construction, and made my claims I could understand.

The point I am making isn't what WILL be there, it's the prejudices being used NOW to put forth an agenda and to take focus of the truly more serious issues this country needs to focus on.


And so that property should not be turned into another one just because there are so many there already? Even though Christianity itself has at least 10 different denominations recognized by the government... Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholicism, Lutheran, Seventh Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witness, Presbyterian, Calvinist, Greek Orthodox... and then there are the many divisions of each of those groups, each wanting their own church.

So saying there are "at least three" putting more there would be kind of silly... is kind of like saying... "all you denominations that don't have one of those 3 churches... aw fucking well, there's enough of your Christian kind represented here."

Sounds kind of ignorant put that way, but isn't that pretty much what you said?

so what we have here is pan making up a media scenario so he can complain about a phantom group relative to which he has all kinds of paranoid issues: "the left"

and here i thought this thread was about a proposal to build a islamic community center a few blocks from the trade center site. silly me.

POST 21..... want to make accusations again about me that have no merit?

So you only oppose the opposition?

No. I was implying that it wouldn't matter if it were a church because there are already three in the area. The current opposition is "OMG a mosque is going to be next to Ground Zero!"

If a church were to be built instead, people wouldn't react nearly as badly, considering it wouldn't be the only one there. It's not like building a church is a controversial thing in the U.S. Am I wrong?

I think that they're a subtle way of changing the focus of the subject away from something that actually happened and presumably has verifiable information surrounding it to something that only exists in someone's imagination and thus can't really be argued against.

For instance: Let's not talk about what's happening in reality, let's talk about those mean old libs that exist in Pan's imagination. Because the way they're acting is just shameful, so shameful that I have a hard time showing sympathy towards people who actually exist outside of Pan's imagination who may or may not have a legitimate gripe with things that are actually occurring in reality.

Subtle? I think you are being too kind.

I did stay on topic... I talked about how the roles would be reversed if a church or synagogue were going up and the media would be arguing against those going up.

Then my reply was to a post specifically addressing my beliefs. Which you totally ignore the fact that is what I was doing. So to insinuate that I tried to change focus or whatever.... I go back to where I once said it is easier to start pointing fingers at me than what i am saying. You can't debate what I am saying so let's just point a finger.....

...

Pan, try to steer clear of victim mode, please.

When you accuse CNN of being 'left leaning' it sends up all kinds of red baiting flags.
It reminds me of how children, decades ago,
who wrote left handed & were encouraged, (bullied) to write
right-handed, because writing left-handed was either a sign you were a devil-worshipper
or a communist.

That's how silly your conclusions appear.

No, I oppose the way the media portrays this and uses it to further divide. And agin, they would use this to divide if it were the other way around... I am simply trying to point that out.

First, how many mosques are in that area? You can tell me how many churches, how many mosques? How many synagogues, Buddhist temples, any Hindu houses of worship around there?

Secondly, if CNN could find opposition to it they would and use it... sounds like you pointed out a good point they would use... "There are 3 there why should another go up".

Thirdly, I don't understand the whole argument and maybe that's why I look at it the way I do. I don't care what goes up there and I find it foolish to argue about. Again, is this an issue because there was enough of a cry against it, or is it an issue because the press desired to make it such and build up a frothing?

Either way, it helps take focus off a war, off an economy falling apart, off high unemployment and all the issues that we truly should be focussed on.

But this is just a paranoidal rant against the pres....lol, me trying to take the focus off something that should truly be a non issue and is being made into one.

I don't think I've ever heard of someone protesting the building of a church, anywhere (I'm sure its happened but it isn't very common) and I certainly couldn't imagine a dust up over a group of Christians building a church 2 blocks from ground zero.

But that's not really the issue here, its about telling US citizens that because they choose to worship a certain way they don't deserve the right (which lets be honest would be afforded to other religions without a millionth of the hoopla) to build a temple of worship were they choose because it might be offensive to others. I could understand zoning problems or something like that causing them to find another location but simply because its in the vicinity of ground zero? That's wrong and it would be wrong no matter what the faith involved.

So let me get this straight: both the right and the left are guilty of being led by the media?

For the sake of this discussion, does that mean this talk of the right and the left and the media cancels itself out?

We're all just sheeple, aren't we? I'm angry at whatever CNN wants me to be!

Yeah, the Tower of Pisa is closer to the left than CNN.

Ok how about this: build the mosque near the crater, but local businesses must also be allowed to put a strip club on one side of it, a deli on the other and a 10-story bacon factory across the street. Any objections?

If it bleeds, it leads. If it doesn't bleed, stab it. Welcome to infotainment. I don't see this as a left or right issue.

I had a cursory glance using Google maps. I didn't see any other houses of worship. Though it's possible they are there, or maybe a bit further away. I would be a bit surprised to find something else that close.

This goes back to my point above.

Um, I'm not entirely sure who is responsible for the frothing. The media to me seems more like a vehicle than the cause.

Just like the World Cup!

If the strip club, bacon factory and deli aren't breaking any zoning laws or other regulations then they absolutely should be able to do that regardless of the mosque.

i'm really unclear what point you could possibly be trying to make, powerclown. is that what passes for humor in the world of the krach party? and you wouldn't have a Problem with folk who are muslim, now would you? just wondering, given your kahane-style views when it comes to questions that involve palestinians.

it's good to sort through different levels of Problems when the right is in a froth.

There is no Synagogue in that vicinity I can say that.

The Museum of Jewish Heritage - A Living Memorial to the Holocaust is not far.

Map showing Ground Zero and Museum location

closest one is in Battery Park, probably just several hundred yards from Ground Zero.

Welcome to bpsynagogue.org

and the other Beth Din Zedek-America DIN in the other direction.

synagogue lower manhattan - Google Maps

My bigger question is why can't they build anything at ground zero? I mean Dubai and other major cities have built huge skyscrapers in the past 9 years, we still have a hole in the ground.

Like building a vietnamese restaurant next door to a dog & cat shelter. Tacky. And tasteless...to westerners.

so you're not actually making any kind of point, powerclown.
you're just being stupid.
great.

this is a non-issue.

Well let's start telling Baptist churches they can not build, or should be moved away from, women clinics that have been bombed for providing abortions. Cause we all know that all baptists are christian soldiers willing to kill for their cause.

Point--Tully

"Islamic values in their truest form" what is that, what is Judaism in it's truest form, or Christianity for that matter? From what I understand of religion and human ideologies, any of them in their "truest" form is not something I find unifying for humanity in general AT ALL, most are more dehumanizing and segregating and fear inducing and hate breeding and tyrannical than any thing I have ever read, including fantasy.

Somebody define for me how any religion "in its truest form" can equal what a simply and smartly and scientifically non-religious community center for all Americans of any religion would not do better (if you really want to open the doors to all humanity, this is what you create and this is what you allow, NON-religious, non-ideological). Why create anything within the heart of the melting pot that leans in any direction other than a cohesive center that does NOT define itself within the confines of any religion.

I see organized religion in general as a leaning from one side to another, instead of a direction that leads people together, it tears people apart. Islam just as Christianity just as Judaism or any other ideology or faith dictates that believes BELIEVE in the teachings of "leaders", in the end these teachings are inherently from HUMAN leaders, with human perspectives and human desires and human needs for human fulfillment.

One would think in a place of freedom, such as Americans claim to be, one would either build a huge conglomeration that museums all faiths and religions together as one TFPer' has already mentioned (something like a Bahá'í House, but more like a religious/ideological museum) or you build nothing in the vicinity that draws or "leans" toward anything except freedom, FREEDOM from religion, freedom from others "truisms," freedom from others perspectives of their inherent reality that are defined within the history of their foundlings (and created as such, a museum of history and why and how humans have and continue to use these "religions" as tools of control). If you want to build a mosque, than build a synagogue, build a cathedral, better yet, build nothing, for in the reality of faith, God does not live inside walls at all, humans do.

Build a business complex where the real religion of humans is apparent, money, or better, build a simple garden, build a playground for the children of mankind, where people can sit together and watch their children play under the trees together in a park for lovers and friends. Nothing that defines mankind by a specific interpretation of ones "god" is going to "truly" bring a societies people together, at least not for long..... especially when the confines of ones gods' truisms negate the freedom of a humans right to be equal merely because of who, what or how they are themselves.

Leave the hole, remind us of what empty means, we are all empty when we feel one people controls another, for whatever reason, for whatever purpose, religion, money, gender, race, without freedom what does any of it matter. Religion removes freedom, Islam, Christianity, Judaism, etc. are religions. imho they "are" the hole, why fill the hole with something that brings humans together if you are only going to surround it with something that tears humans apart. No buildings of any "specific" religion should be built, doors for humans' unity should be open to all, build a house of freedom, freedom from each others judgments and condemnations, freedom from tyranny and freedom from segregation, freedom from racism and hatred and ignorance, freedom from persecution, freedom from fear, freedom for each other in recognizing ALL of humanities painful histories, what religion, what ideology can claim this freedom..... Build a Freedom House, and then mean it!

You do understand that this planned mosque isn't actually ON ground zero, right? And that there are other churches and temples of other religions that are as close if not closer to ground zero, right?

idyllic, i have no objection in other faiths building their centres and places of worship wherever the municipalities and councils deem fit. If it fits within the planning policies, and is passed through councils, then there really is no reason not to build whatever the private developer has invested into - be it a religious, commercial or residential building.

what people need to realise is the city needs to service the people that live within it. Refusing to acknowledge that there is a need for religious community centres will only drive those centres into ill-equipped and badly controlled underground centres in the hands of the wrong people.

So instead of having a transparent centre that is willing to engage in interfaith dialogue and speak to the community, you set the tone where a centre believes that they have been marginalised and this breeds resentment.

Freedom from everything leaves you with nothing. Dont deny the contituants of your city and they'll show that gratitude back.

I'm thinking that anything that isn't in all caps is subtle.

powerclown, there are already two strip clubs (new york dolls and wild west entertainment) very near the proposed site.

i would be shocked if there weren't a deli.

no idea about the bacon factory though...

On a more serious note, I am still having a hard time understanding what your objection to the project is - my earlier question was genuine. If your issue is not with their stated mission, then to what do you object?

Freedom from religion? After all, what is religion but a set of rules and limitations?

It defeats the purpose here. This is an issue of the Islamic community. Are you suggesting that Muslims shouldn't be Muslims in designing their community centre?

That this thread even exists is indicative that we are not the nation we claim to be. We either allow the free expression of religion or we don't.

Again, I simply ask, what is meant by the words "Islamic values in their truest form" as I go to the website Cordoba Initiative and move around the site I am greeted with many different perspectives of what this means, of the interests in the Shar’iah Project and how this will mesh with the secular perspectives of American society, will this new Mosque also become a place for Imams “rule” of Muslim American citizens based in a form of Shar’iah.

Another thing I found interesting is that this website, that has been in service for at least 2 years, has just now begun to recognize the necessity to include the “freedoms” of Muslim women and have yet to create a voice of their own in that interest, they instead steer one to another site, Home Page | Cordoba which makes me wonder why this aspect of it’s “congregation” and those it anticipates to serve didn’t involve women in general to begin with.

I have many questions as to the basic functioning of this mosque and whether is will truly permit equality of all faiths to enter and pray within its walls, it will house a pool, but will women be slowed to swim in it, and will they be required to wear certain garb to participate (burkinis), will they continue to be required to be segregated during prayer or to pray behind men or will they finally be able to kneel next to their brothers to pray, will they accept Bahá'í Faith members to participate in activities and will they promote Americanism as a means to unify citizens just as they promote Islam. And as base as this may sound, as simple and odd and whatever you think of this question, will they allow a woman who is on her period to carry a Quran (I know, this seems like a petty question, but it is about more than the question itself it is about the way women in general are viewed as being “clean” or “unclean” and why, it’s about the inherent self view that women take of themselves based in the Shar’iah perspectives), I would like to know the answers to these questions as to prevent a woman from touching a “holy” book in a “holy” house because she is “unclean” due to her menses and to allow this to be promoted as O.K. in the U.S. to me is a problem in any “house” of faith that is to be considered a public community forum atmosphere.

So these answers need to be put forth and understood by most who view many of the stricture and confines of Islam as creating a sense of inequality for humans in general, like building a house where rules of religion trump the freedom of the world that surrounds it, a haven from the reality that is the humanity of New York, I have questions and the website does not answer them. I realize that if they have the money, and the permits, in the American way I say build it, will it bring Islam to the NY people or maybe it will bring some NY/US/secular mentality to Islam, even better. Yes, build it, it is very hard to live in American Freedom and not become immersed in the sensations of what this freedom offers, and as generations grow within the multitudes of this freedom they will also progress towards basic freedoms outside religious “laws” because that IS the eventual evolution of mankind.

This is from the The Cordoba Inititive Website

Home Page | Cordoba
Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf: What Shariah Law Is All About

In the end, it's all very exciting to watch unfolding this progression of mankind in religious "smelting" take Bahá'í for example, they basically draw together all prior religions to form a new concept of religious evolution, interesting indeed. Smelt away all ye religions in the great melting pot, what better place than that. I still want to know the answers to the "unclean" woman thing.

---------- Post added at 11:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ----------

Until the religion is the law B_G, Shariah Law. If a religious sect begins to place the laws of their faith over the laws of man then it becomes an issue, when citizens become afraid to have pre-marital sex because the Imams can punish them, to these subjects the religion IS the law, no more no less that NYPD, it is Shariah. There can be no religious punishments that reach outside the walls of a building, if they wish to shut their doors to a member because the member does not conform that is one thing but to punish a member, for breaking a religious law is, imho, morally wrong. Shariah Law cannot be secular in it's very nature Shariah Law is the law of the Islamic faith, so yes, freedom from religion and its inherent "laws". A community center is for the community, everyone within that community, not specifically Muslims as that would be against the nature of improving the community altogether, unless of course this is a private community center that only permits Muslims, in which case how will this help their mission.

It is being built as a community center for all faiths B_G, not just the Islamic community, or is it? I am suggesting that a Community Center that is NON-religious or ALL-religions together would be better than one that conforms to a specific religion wherein the membership still lingers within one group as the defining genre.

It's my understanding that it's a Muslim-led initiative to allow interfaith communication and community so that people can learn more about the Islamic faith and that Muslims can learn more about other faiths.

I say the debate is an Islamic issue because it's a Muslim group wanting to share their religion and culture. The tack you're taking is that the centre should be either non-religious or fully multi-religious. The problem with that is it's like asking this Muslim group to go about their vision without being so Islamic about it. Why can't they either eschew their religion when it comes to building this centre or dilute the focus by making it a multi-religious museum?

The problem is that it's a Muslim initiative. It is instilled with Muslim values. And this is viewed as a threat.

That's the problem.

Once again, the conservatives show us that it's ok to be a bigot, just make sure the victim is a Muslim.

---------- Post added at 09:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:41 AM ----------

There is a St. Peter's Roman Catholic Church across the street from Ground Zero.

Kinda like racial profiling is ok, as long as you sweep up a few illegals.

It's not a good time to be brown.

But with the left it's ok if the victims are WASPs, Catholics, Jews, or people who do not see their views.

Same thing said just on the opposite side of the fence

What left are you talking about? Are these phantoms, or are you thinking of a group or two in particular?

...

Perhaps it's a swimmer's ear issue causing that list.

Hey silent-jay...I need your water reference, back! It didn't need to be edited in my opinion.

Oh heck.

...

Who, exactly, is ok with bigotry towards wasps, jews and catholics?

Can you substantiate any of that? Or is this more of the same bullshit as always?

We get this typical structural fallacy all the time on TFP: If something occurs, then the inverse would probably be true.

So, if we get a group of conservatives (Palin is the first to come to mind) opposing or otherwise attacking the idea of an Islamic cultural centre equipped with a mosque in the proximity of "Ground Zero," it must follow that the opposite is probably true.

In this case, Christians and Jews are the opposite or the inverse of Muslims, and "the left" is the opposite or the inverse of conservatives. So it must follow that the left would react much like the conservatives have if Christians and/or Jews tried to build a cultural centre equipped with either a chapel or a synagogue.

Well, duh. Of course it's true. The universe works this way all the time. That's how it's so easy to keep track of it.

I don't see it. I don't see how it would be a liberal or social democratic thing to oppose the peaceful social or cultural enrichment of a society, which is pretty much what this is sold as. It wouldn't matter what the religious group is, and that's the difference. But I don't speak for all liberals and social democrats. I'm just speaking towards their values. Multiculturalism being one of them. Religious tolerance another.

All I can sense is that Pan is speaking from a place of fear & paranoia,
because the current state of media that most folk rely on,
has done its job very well at whipping
a lot of people into a frenzied frothed state.

Keeping people in a state of fear & uncertainty is one of the top ten
identifiers that fascist regimes use to gain control.

I'm not saying I've ever been immune to these tactics. There have been times I've reacted, just how they wanted me to. Being able to recognize the tone & tempo
of orchestrated propaganda is a life lesson skill that's idyllically learned
at an early age.

I'm confused & disheartened that some people who seem to know better,
decide to keep mainlining the fear they've become accustomed to.

I never really understood the inverse argument anyway. "Sure we're doing something horrible...but..but...you guys are doing other horrible things!" As though that somehow excuses being a jackass? On either side of any issue there is going to be narrow minded idiots with an agenda but that shouldn't detract from the rest of us having a rational discussion over weather or not a group of Muslims should be able to build near ground zero.

It reminds me of: "Mom! she hit me first!"

Hopefully our planet will decide to keep us around for awhile in the hope
that we can grow up.

Do Mosques use incense?
I've had a lifelong question.
Every place of worship I have ever been in, (and there have been many different species) they all smell the same.

It's pleasant, whatever it is.

I hate to break this up guys, but if we don't leave soon we're going to be late for our waspcathojew hate group meeting. I'm bringing cupcakes!

This whole brouhaha is ridiculous. I've been happy to see a number of right-libertarian commentators come out against Mrs. Palin (understandable, if somewhat short-sighted perspective) and especially against Mr. Gingrich (complete reactionary nonsense) and his detestable hangers-on in the Hate All Muslims wing of the GOP. So long as no NITR* activity goes down in the centre in question, what's the big deal? If some bigoted morons can't be bothered to remember that Muslims died on 9/11 as well, and that the NITRs responsible hate and wish to eradicate moderate Muslims even -more- than us plain-ol-Infidels, they need what Dr. Paul would call a "refresher course." I wonder if Mr. Guiliani has gotten through his Summer Reading list yet?

Jeezus, people, nobody bitched about St. Pat's Cathedral because of the IRA's bullshit, or the various Synagogues and Jewish activist HQs because of the Irgun and the Stern Gang.

*Facepalm*



*Neo-Islamic Totalitarian Radical

Exactly. I think what bothers me about the inverse argument is it assumes that everybody on either the left or right thinks exactly the same and because some liberal somewhere may have said or done something against white Christians it renders any argument from the left (as though this is a left issue) invalid and easily dismissed. The same can be said about conservative issues as well.

All it does is detract from the issue and degenerate any debate into a left vs right pissing contest.

I, for one, would like to see a moratorium on the development of any and all houses of worship. And have them all replaced with micro-brewery strip clubs.

Idyllic, this is like my saying that the folks doing construction down the street from me ought to build a public library rather than another church.

It's a perfectly legitimate preference, but is it really grounds for the kind of outrage we've seen against the Cordoba project? Is it legal grounds for barring them from proceeding? Is it a moral grounds for objecting to the project itself? Or can we simply acknowledge that, for the reasons you've pointed out, the project is not perfect, but that they still have every right to build it?

So, those in opposition seem to believe that the terrorists have won if they can blow up "our" buildings and replace them with "their" buildings.

I sort of think that, if we let this center get built without a fuss, they actually lose. I know it's too late for that.

Hey, on a positive note, at least the U.S. government didn't go the route of Muslim American internment camps.

...much to the disappointment of a few Real Americans (TM), I'm sure.

*Ahem*

In Defense of Internment - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I'm shocked, SHOCKED, I say.

Well, at least there isn't an In Defense of Bombing Mecca and Medina.



EDIT:

Crap... :sad:

Let's see how many times we can say "Republican Presidential Hopeful" in three minutes.

Guy's a nutjob. Propaganda media.

I'm glad the GOP is fighting hard AGAINST a mosque near the 9/11 site, while also fighting hard AGAINST extending the promised health benefits to the first responders on 9/11.

Heckuva party they're running there

They're Republicans. They fight against things. That's what they do.

An update: It seems the ADL is now reversing its earlier position and coming out against the project. http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/31/ny...mosque.html?hp

It bothers me that in the terms of the public debate, we continue to call this project a 'mosque'.

Consider the way space is allocated in the proposed structure, the range of expected activities, and the primary function as expressed by those running the project. If Cordoba House is a mosque, then my alma mater is a Catholic church.

Kind of like Demoocrats who block shopping malls because they might affect the traffic in their precious little town.

Let the muslims build their mosque. It's not going to hurt anything.

Have they built anything there yet? I'm still trying to figure out why there isn't a skyscraper opening in 2011 there. 10 years should have been more than enough time to build everything.

more than enough time. WTC 7 is already open and rented out.

From what I understand isn't there just a whole slough of politics standing in the way of rebuilding? I seem to recall hearing a lot about that a few years ago...but yeah it is odd that seemingly nothing has been done yet, even Government doesn't usually run this slowly.