supersix2

I came across this article today on cnn.com and actually I heard my dad talking about this last week when I was on vacation. I really can't believe all of the angst and uproar surrounding this. I liked to think that people in this country weren't really this fearful and reactionary toward anything Muslim but that belief is slowly starting to fade the more and more I see.

Here's the link to the article In battle to build mosque near Ground Zero, opponents ask 'why there?' - CNN.com

Basically this group of American Muslims would like to build a Mosque in New York City in the area near where the World Trade Center used to be. The reactions of the opposition to this are at times downright racist. I can't believe it.


My thoughts on the whole thing is that there are plenty of regular Muslims out there who would simply like to practice their religion and culture without harming anyone or anything. Sadly a small radical group gives them a bad name. I really doubt the reaction would be this great if a Christian organization wanted to build a church or even a Jewish organization wanted to build a Synagogue near that site. But because it was a Mosque and radical Muslim terrorists were responsible this is all of a sudden a big deal. Opponents are trying to get legislation to block the construction by trying to declare one of the buildings there a historic landmark. In my opinion this flies in the face of everything America was founded on. These Muslims are Americans and should have the same rights to practice their religion freely without having a legal process blocking it.

Now I am speculating that no one would have an issue with this if it was another religions building, heck I doubt anyone would care if Burger King wanted to build something there...but I truly believe because it is a Mosque people are having serious heartburn over this.

Reading some of the comments people left in that article on CNN...it just makes sad for America that people can still be that bigoted.


I am trying to see the other side of this as well, I was not personally affected by the 9/11 attacks and I did not lose anyone in those towers, maybe I would feel differently if I had experienced a loss there. I do understand why those people might have an problem with it. However, they are merely expressing a human emotion due to their loss but that is why we have laws and a Constitution so that human emotion does not govern us. I believe in this case that allowing emotions to spill over into this issue we are denying this group of people their rights as Americans to practice religion free of persecution.

Anyone else have any thoughts?

Pearl Trade

The CNN comments are just trolls saying the most extreme thought possible to get a reaction. It's like that in every single CNN story, no matter what the issue.

They are not being persecuted, they're just being told to put it somewhere else. I don't see why they can't put the mosque in another, less controversial area. The leading imam says he wants this to be peaceful, but if he truly wanted that then he wouldn't even attempt to put his mosque there.

I realize that in an ideal world everyone should be free to put their house of worship wherever they want, but we don't live in an ideal world. I also realize that 99.999% of Muslims are against what the terrorists are doing, just as 99.999% of all Americans are the same way.

If you had a family member who was killed by an extreme Muslim, would you want to drive by a mosque every day on the way to work? I wouldn't want that, even though I know the true peaceful nature of Islam. Call me a hypocrite, but that's how it is.

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Seaver

Screw legislation... if they want to stop the building of the cultural center they need to pony up cash to buy it.

If they don't have the support of the people enough to put down their own cash they shouldn't have any right to get the state to stop it.

As for the whole "their religion spawned this!" b.s. argument, we should respect our own country enough to allow this to happen. Open tolerance of law abiding citizens is a cornerstone of our country, hatred and demagoguery is a staple of the fundies that caused 9/11.

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Baraka_Guru

Islamophobia'd!


Terrorism works.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Derwood

I wish they'd stop calling the site "ground zero".

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FuglyStick

1000 internets to you, sir.

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guy44

If you had a family member who was killed by a black guy, would you want to drive by a black church every day on the way to work? I wouldn't want that, even though I know the true peaceful nature of blacks. Call me a hypocrite, but that's how it is.

If you had a family member who was killed by a Jewish guy, would you want to drive by a synagogue every day on the way to work? I wouldn't want that, even though I know the true peaceful nature of Jews. Call me a hypocrite, but that's how it is.

If you had a family member who was killed by a NRA member, would you want to drive by a NRA office every day on the way to work? I wouldn't want that, even though I know the true peaceful nature of NRA members. Call me a hypocrite, but that's how it is.

Need I go on?

This is a free country. Anyone who thinks Muslims need to stay away from public places just because of 9/11 needs to seriously reexamine their commitment to foundational American values.

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hiredgun

Here is what I find ironic:

Cordoba House is not really a mosque. It includes a prayer space, yes, but it's primarily a cultural center - and not even an exclusively Muslim cultural center. Take a look at their mission statement:

The entire Cordoba initiative seems to me to be exactly what the shrillest commentators have spent the last nine years claiming does not exist: a Muslim constituency genuinely and publicly devoted to tolerance and interfaith understanding.

So the choice of Lower Manhattan is meaningful; the whole point is to juxtapose a monument to understanding in the shadow of a scar of hatred and war.

Also, it's really not at ground zero, but a few blocks away on Park Place.

I think political opposition to this project is the cheapest, basest form of grandstanding, and I genuinely hope that the truth of the matter wins the day and calms the hearts of those who are sincerely upset.

Wes Mantooth

""It would be a terrible mistake to destroy a 154-year-old building in order to build a monument to terrorism," one woman said." Yeah, I think that just about sums things up nicely doesn't it?

I find it sad that this is even an issue and I often wonder how many people really, truly value what this country stands for and the rights we've worked so hard to preserve. Its so easy to take freedom for granted when you're in the majority, your own rights aren't the ones being trampled and your not being told you have to leave because people find you and your way of life offensive merely because of association or are just too stupid to understand it. I don't know, I think a lot of people in this country just don't have the balls to live in a free society where everyone is treated equally, its too hard, too uncomfortable, too much fear of whats different, too easily offended, too fucking scared.

Maybe someday we as a whole will actually understand and appreciate what this freedom thing really means but when I read about stuff like this it sure sounds like a lot of people are still a long way from getting it.

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Daniel_

"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

as long as they're not wogs, niggers, spics or ragheads?

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Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

Shauk

just how close is it really? cuz I mean unless it's like directly across the friggin street I suspsect this is much hype about nothing.

and cmon, it's been almost 10 years, build a bridge, get over it.

Wes Mantooth

I think its a couple of blocks, Shauk, which makes it all that much worse in my opinion.

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powerclown

Then why not also build a church, a synagogue, a mosque, a buddhist monastery, a shinto shrine, a hindu temple, a rastafarian house, a greenpeace headquarters etc etc etc in a ring surrounding ground zero physically interconnected by hallways with trams and people movers and make it truly interfaith encompassing all religions and nationalities. Having just a mosque (a really big one too) seems too much like its having your cake and eating it too.

dippin

Is anyone stopping any other religious group from building in lower Manhattan?

freeload

I think India has the solution here in the form of the Lotus Temple.


(Image from Lucky Pennies blog)
....

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Hektore

I realize this post has already been seconded, but it really sums up the way I feel so well that it needed to be thirded

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hiredgun

... but it's not a mosque? and it's open to all, like the Lotus Temple in the post below yours? Can you point to what you think could be offensive in their mission statement (quoted in my post)?

dlish

i dont see an issue with anyone building a place a worship wherever they want, as long as they are built in accordance with the zoning and planning regulations - it's fair game.


Pearl, my family was directly affected by the hezbollah-israeli war of 2006. my wife was in lebanon at the time, and she and her family went through hell with warplanes and bombings heard above, even in north lebanon. i lost contact with her for about a week because the israeli planes took out communication towers and bombed bridges. i had no idea if my wife was dead or alive.

Going by what you're saying, i should have an enraged hatred of jews. But i dont. in fact i'm a fan of many of our jewish TFPers here, and i wouldnt have it any other way. They didnt bomb my country, jewish warplanes did, and that a moral that americans need to realise when they apply this to themselves.

THAT's the difference between you and I.

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filtherton

I was going to chime in with some brilliantly funny and caustic comment, but I see that all of what would have been its main points have been addressed. Kudos Seaver, dlish.

This whole issue is so fucking ridiculous.

roachboy

i agree with what hiredgun's said already in this thread.

its yet another non-issue from the conservative set.

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spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

I agree with Powerclown and especially like Freeload's example of the Lotus Temple.

I also am confused because those that say it's a non issue, how dare those racists (and it wouldn't be racism, it would be a religious prejudice... but I guess "racism" sounds better and it's use gets more attention)... and so on. I think this is more of a study on how the press controls the minds and thinking of those on the left.

Yet, I could almost guarantee, if some of these Left leaning news agencies such as CNN, Time, and so on found out a synagogue or Pat Robertson decided to put a huge Christian church there, these same people would be talking about how wrong, ignorant and prejudiced it would be to build such a thing.

Especially, if those news agencies brought out all these left leaning protest groups saying how this was a slap to the Muslim faith, and how dare they and how can there ever be peace when we allow racists and religious phobes to do such a thing.

If the Left can't step back and see their own hypocrisy and how the press controls their thinking... it will only keep getting worse.

All in the agenda and the perspective the press wants you to have. So easily led. (And no, the Right isn't much different, but right now I'm talking about the Left)....


My point is it's all in how the Left get their marching orders from the press. How the press spins it and the agenda pushing it. It seems watching thread after thread after thread here, the left doesn't really have much of a debate except regurgitating "racism" "some phobia" "old white ignorant angry men" "how dare you hate.... we hate but we have reason to because you are small minded".... the Left want to come off more intellectually superior and patting each other on the back because they slammed an opponent but never really debated the issue.... but it all boils down to the marching orders they get from their news.

The saddest part of all this isn't the debate over the mosque being there...and debate should be had. It's the fact that the press can so easily get the leftists to support without thinking and to attack mercilessly any thoughts outside of what they want....

Look at it this way... the Left say they are compassionate and try to understand (well in my day it was both sides) today it's whatever minority group is affected.... You don't care about the feelings of those who are being offended, instead you ridicule and berate them for those feelings.... Is that truly what you want in your heart, that kind of hatred? Again, if roles were reversed and it was Pat Robertson building a huge Christian Church and the press told you to fight against that... you would be what you hate right now.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

dc_dux

I agree that it is a non-issue, contrived by those with little tolerance.

And, contrarty to powerclown's assertion, it is not a "really big one" (not that size matters), but it is a small mosque within a larger community center.

Oh, and Pan, I dont march to anyone's orders.

---------- Post added at 10:19 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

Should the planners of the Cordoba House have met with 9/11 survivors and families? Perhaps.

But it is ignorance and intolerance that is the threat, not the Cordoba House.

As hiredgun pointed out and those who make claims of it being a "really big (mosque)" and "marching orders (for the left)" appear to ignore:

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Baraka_Guru

Hm...that doesn't sound like a monument to terrorism at all....


Okay, I understand that many in NYC carry a burden of pain when it comes to the events of 9/11. I'm sure there are several triggers that are particularly painful. Planes flying overhead, fireworks, seeing a Muslim in the street, etc.—I'm sure any or all of these could trigger post-traumatic stress. However, it appears the resistance to this cultural centre is based on this kind of emotional reaction. It's based on the fact that the attack was carried out "in the name of Islam." It was carried out with planes, and it happened to cause explosions and the collapsing of skyscrapers.

None of that should have much bearing on whether a group should build a community/cultural centre that will serve the city in several ways. That people are emotionally broken by a terrorist attack and that this centre is associated with Islam are the main reasons why there is opposition. I hear people in their outrage saying things such as "This is hallowed ground," or, "This is sacred ground," which to me is blatantly ignorant. It suggests to me that it is hallowed and sacred in that closed Christian context, where the dead should be respected and honoured and so those Muslims should be kept away from it, lest they disgrace the place and the memory of those who died. It suggests that Muslims cannot hope to sympathize or otherwise relate to those who died. It suggests that Muslims are outside of the shock, pain, and grief caused by 9/11. It marginalizes Islam. It blames Islam.

The centre itself is a positive force and it would be a shame if it gets blocked. I would even go as far as to say that it would be damaging to the city and to Americans as a whole. It would be giving in to Islamophobia and it would be a demonstration of the efficacy of terrorism. The blocking of this centre could very well mean an ideological victory for the likes of Al-Qaeda, where they could very well say, "Look at how American hegemony resists and marginalizes Muslim culture."

I would like to hope Americans are strong enough to bear this painful emotional recovery rather than let it get the best of them.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

guy44

pan, do you seriously think the left would be upset if a church or synagogue was being built there instead? That's totally, totally nuts.

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"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'"

Wes Mantooth

I would like to hope for the same thing as well, I know we're better then this....or at least I'd hope we are.

__________________

Cynthetiq

personally, I work in SoHo, and most of my time is spent in the Lower East Side where I live. I don't care if they build it or where they build it. Just fucking build the damned building already. I'm more outraged about that since the when the 10 year mark comes, it's still going to be pretty much a hole in the ground.

Yet there are many other buildings that have broke ground, been built, and people moved into them.

That pisses me off more than a mosque being built.

shit they just found a 1700 ship when doing my diging... that's going to delay it again.
18th-Century Ship Found at Trade Center Site

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powerclown

Did I say anything about the mission statement being offensive? I think that its your progressive synapses barking to attention like pavlovs dog drooling over the smell of a corned beef sandwich. I think the whole thing is tacky...why not build a 13-story Benihanas right next to Pearl Harbor, I love Benihanas.

Baraka_Guru

I'm pretty sure he was asking you a question, rather than insinuating anything.

Good question. Why not? Lots of people like teppanyaki. Thirteen storeys might be a little much though. One or two would probably do, maybe three if demand warranted it.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

loquitur

I kinda understand what the objections are - the 9/11 terrorists acted in the name of Islam, and this is an Islamic house of worship. But that presumes the 9/11 terrorists were correct in how they were behaving under Islamic law. From what I understand, that is not necessarily correct. We should not allow the 9/11 hijackers to define matters for us. IIRC, a fair number of Muslims were killed in the WTC. I live in NY, and I encounter many Muslims every day - driving cabs, running news stands, selling fruit, etc. Those people are trying to live their lives just like everyone else. If they want to have a house of worship, they should have the same right as anyone else to put their house of worship wherever they want. I have a mosque near my home, and so far as I can tell they are very good neighbors -- and this in a heavily Jewish neighborhood, mind you. Gotta love America.

Some of the objectors have pointed to some objectionable stuff the imam of this proposed mosque has been involved with. Well, if he did stuff that's illegal, he shou.d be investigated. If not, then don't treat him differently than anyone else.

ring

I find this to be a rather poignant discovery.
One that reminds us that time & history will keep on paving
over us, no matter how much we fuss about current slights,
& imagined phantoms.

Seaver

Well because it's still Government property... but if it was private property and they had the cash to do it by all means.

Honestly all of this "it's too close!" is complete bs. It's Manhattan, throw a dart at the map and you'll be "only a few blocks" from ground zero.

__________________
"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

pan6467

I think if CNN found a group that would be highly offended by it, then without a doubt. Especially, if Pat Robertson were involved.

With a synagogue, I'm not sure... but I'm sure there'd be some group out the CNN would pick up on and use.

If this were either being built, there be cries of racism, how religiously intolerant not to put something there that ALL faiths could enjoy.

I believe that wholeheartedly. I believe that people on the left have been so manipulated and brainwashed by the press, the media and our own government they believe that everything America once stood for and the principles of this country that made us great are wrong, racist, intolerant, prejudicial and so on.... that when the reverse prejudices are used it is more than ok. Which makes me sick because intolerance no matter what you want to call it, is still very much intolerance and wrong.

A group of black panthers standing inside 50' of a polling place using racial epithets and banging batons is every bit as wrong as the kkk, jewish anti defamation league or anyone else doing it... but the Left make excuses for it being ok and how ignorant people are because "that is not what really happened".... lol but it is.

This whole race/religion/whatever the prejudice is being such a fucking issue keeps the country divided and from truly working on the real solutions to get us up again. Let's see this energy go towards figuring out how to bring businesses and manufacturing back so we have a tax base and employment again, lets see this energy used to stop defending the ultra rich while they ship jobs overseas.... let's see all prejudice end and let's move on.... but that ain't going to happen. As long as we can have one side playing prejudices against another for votes and to get agendas passed it'll never happen.

So YES, I believe it whole heartedly and in every fiber of my body... that if it were a jewish or christian house of worship... the press would be all over it and telling us how wrong it is. And that is just sad.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Baraka_Guru

Hmm...what could possibly help...?

Oh, right:
There are already at least three churches in the same area (just as close or closer than the proposed site), so the idea would be kind of silly.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

...

Baraka_Guru

I'm always a little peeved by these "what if" inverse or otherwise contrasted scenarios, whether it's about Japanese restaurants or Christian houses of worship. It's a bit annoying because the situation isn't about the Japanese cuisine or Pearl Harbor or Christians, or even the minority liberal media.

Well, here's a "what if" for you all:

What if there were already a thirteen-storey mosque and cultural centre in that site since before 9/11? Would you support its forced removal/relocation away from the "sacred hallowed ground"?

I think my "what if" scenario is much fairer and sincere than the ones I've seen otherwise.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

silent_jay

...

pan6467

Why are you putting this here. If I were arguing against the construction, and made my claims I could understand.

The point I am making isn't what WILL be there, it's the prejudices being used NOW to put forth an agenda and to take focus of the truly more serious issues this country needs to focus on.


And so that property should not be turned into another one just because there are so many there already? Even though Christianity itself has at least 10 different denominations recognized by the government... Baptist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Catholicism, Lutheran, Seventh Day Adventist, Jehovah's Witness, Presbyterian, Calvinist, Greek Orthodox... and then there are the many divisions of each of those groups, each wanting their own church.

So saying there are "at least three" putting more there would be kind of silly... is kind of like saying... "all you denominations that don't have one of those 3 churches... aw fucking well, there's enough of your Christian kind represented here."

Sounds kind of ignorant put that way, but isn't that pretty much what you said?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

roachboy

so what we have here is pan making up a media scenario so he can complain about a phantom group relative to which he has all kinds of paranoid issues: "the left"

and here i thought this thread was about a proposal to build a islamic community center a few blocks from the trade center site. silly me.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

POST 21..... want to make accusations again about me that have no merit?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Baraka_Guru

So you only oppose the opposition?

No. I was implying that it wouldn't matter if it were a church because there are already three in the area. The current opposition is "OMG a mosque is going to be next to Ground Zero!"

If a church were to be built instead, people wouldn't react nearly as badly, considering it wouldn't be the only one there. It's not like building a church is a controversial thing in the U.S. Am I wrong?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot