israeli navy kills gaza activists - Page 6 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Willravel · 06-04-2010, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

I'll forsake further comment in favor of our military members, but to say this: such wounds are easily achievable when dealing with a self-defense shooting at close and crowded quarters.

I could understand a few wounds in backs and backs of heads during the scuffle, but the majority of dead bodies (5/9) have bullets in the backs of their bodies. We don't even know yet the condition of many of those injured from being shot. If you were surrounded by people with pipes and sticks and kitchen knives, all of them facing you, and you started firing in any direction, you would hit faces, chests, torsos, arms, and legs, all from the front. Maybe a few stray bullets get through, but 5 out of 9? Forgive me, but I'm very skeptical.

As I stated above, with a link to eyewitness reports for verification, the IDF forces opened fire before repelling onto the vessel. It's arguably the most important piece of information in this situation. The commandos were not acting as rational actors in this situation, only defending themselves. They opened fire onto a defenseless vessel. That lone constitutes an attempted execution, does it not?

The_Dunedan · 06-04-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

excessive asymmetrical warfare tactics
that Will mentioned earlier?

In a gunfight, that's called winning. In a gunfight, you win or you die.

ring · 06-04-2010, 06:31 PM

but...only one side had guns.

The_Dunedan · 06-04-2010, 06:41 PM

In a close-quarters situation, where one side has guns, -both- sides have guns. A sidearm accessory which was popular all the way through WWII before falling out of favour (and now gaining re-acceptance) is the pistol lanyard: a length of rope or elastic or even steel chain fastened to the solider/policeman's belt and to the butt of the pistol itself. The idea, obviously, was to prevent the weapon being grabbed away from its' owner and used against him. Someone who grabs for your sidearm means to kill you with it. I have no no truck with Israel or their political/territorial designs, but the -13 commandos in question don't seem to have acted as anything other than professionals.

The problem lies in the fact that they -are- professionals: elite professional soldiers. Head-crackers, ass-kickers, and name-takers. You don't send this kind of person to interdict an unarmed flotilla of hippies. You send the Coast Guard and a few Deputies borrowed from the County Sheriff (or the local equivalent). If heads need breaking, they break 'em with sticks and sap gloves. If somebody gets legitimately life-threatening, they take a .38 to the forehead and take a dirt nap. You send in the likes of these commandos when you want people killed and toys broken and the wreckage deposited on the bottom of the Med without any signal or survivor getting off the boat. That's what they're best at, and sometimes that sort of thing needs doing. But you don't mix the two: you don't send cops to fight Kim Jong Il, and you don't send soldiers to arrest and prosecute petty smugglers, murderers and thugs.

ring · 06-04-2010, 07:16 PM

Just heard a quick blip that the Rachel Corrie ship has been captured.
No injuries.

The_Dunedan · 06-04-2010, 07:17 PM

Thank God. At least nobody died this time.

Edit: Nothing yet on AJ, CNN, Time.com, etc. Situation may be ongoing.

ring · 06-04-2010, 07:26 PM

Yeah.

Daily Kos: News Happening Now: IDF takes the Rachel Corrie

Willravel · 06-04-2010, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

In a close-quarters situation, where one side has guns, -both- sides have guns.

But, as I've been saying, it wasn't a close-quarters situation in the beginning. According to eyewitnesses, the IDF forces (seriously, what are they officially called? IDF commandos? IDF navy? I honestly don't know) opened fire on the vessel from the air before anyone repelled anywhere. The only close quarters when the thing started were the folks on the boat being shot at from above, many of whom were being hit. This, ultimately, is the most important thing to bear in mind in all of this. IDF forces opened fire before repelling onto the flotilla.

BTW, the Turkish government said that the next aid ship to leave port from Turkey would have military escort. That scares the living shit out of me. The whole Israeli blockade could easily take on a few Turkish escort vessels, but, based on my watching the military channel religiously and doing a bit more research lately, it seems Turkey has a much more powerful navy than Israel, meaning Israel would need to deploy its air force. Undoubtedly, this would REQUIRE a NATO response, something not even the Israel-enabling US government could prevent, meaning it's Israel vs. NATO minus the US. And if NATO attacks, you can bet Hezbollah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, PFLP, GIA and any other group that feels wronged by Israel will come out of the woodwork. Then nukes would go off. I'm not cool with any of that.

Idyllic · 06-04-2010, 07:40 PM

Quote:

'Guns may have been thrown overboard'
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/04/2010 12:43

Gun-sights, cartridges and coded plans found on 'Marmara.'
Talkbacks (18)

Firearms may have been thrown overboard by passengers of the Mavi Marmara, Israel Radio reported Friday, citing IDF sources.

According to the report, gun-sights and rifle cartridges not fitting IDF weapons were discovered upon inspection of the ship, leading defense officials to believe that there may have been weapons on board when the ship set out from Turkey aside from the knifes, rocks and slingshots found in the search.

Coded messages apparently alluding to scenarios of soldier-kidnapping and soldier fatalities were also found on board the ship.

Some of those aboard the ship recorded messages saying they intended to become shahids , martyrs for the cause of war against infidels.

A Reuters report appeared to corroborate on Friday claims of an attempt to kidnap a soldier during the raid of the ship.

Andre Abu Khalil, a Lebanese cameraman for Al-Jazeera TV who was aboard the Mavi Marmara, told Reuters that some 20 Turkish men had tried to prevent the boarding commandos from reaching the wheelhouse and commandeering the ship.

Using slingshots, metal pipes and bats they initially succeeded in wounding and overpowering four Israeli soldiers and dragging them below the deck.

After standoff lasting approximately ten minutes, the Israelis opened fire, the man said.

A makeshift hostage negotiation took place aboard the ship, according to the cameraman. One activist used a megaphone to tell the commandos the four captive soldiers were well and would be released if they provided medical help for the wounded passengers. An Israeli Arab MK - presumably Haneen Zuabi - was said to have mediated in the negotiations, and the soldiers acquiesced. The wounded were subsequently brought up to the top deck to be airlifted off the ship.

Rifle cartridges? Maybe like the one that was found in an activists head?

---------- Post added at 11:40 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:38 PM ----------

Quote:

'Rachel Corrie' boarded, no one hurt.
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/05/2010 06:08

Reported on Twitter at about 5:50 am. Three navy boats involved. Passengers under arrest.

At about 5:50 am on Saturday, the first reports came in over Twitter that the 'Rachel Corrie' had been boarded close to Gaza. Earlier the activists reported that their radar had been jammed, however their Twitter accounts continued to operate.

The activists reported that three boats were following them for about twenty minutes and then that they had been boarded.

The passengers are said to be under arrest.

A couple of hours before the ship was seized, a Malaysian NGO which was co-sponsoring the ship, "Perdana Global Peace Organization" stated on its website that the ship's passengers had agreed to let an international force search the ship, before it proceeded to Gaza. The statement said that, while the activists rejected Israel's right to blockade Gaza, the activists "request and invite for an independent international body, preferably inspectors from the the United Nations to board the ship and do the necessary to certify as to the nature of the cargo on board."

The Malaysian NGO described the ship as a joint Irish-Malaysian effort. The organization's website describes its mission as to "oppose war and champion peace and global understanding."

Before the ship made its offer, Irish Foreign Minister, Dr. Michael Martin reached an agreement with Israel, whereby the Rachel Corrie would proceed to Ashdod where its contents would be checked, unloaded and then shipped to Gaza under observation of representatives of the activists, the UN and the Irish government. The activists rejected this offer, insisting on breaking the Israeli blockade. They did however give assurances that they would not resist the IDF, should it decide to board the ship. The White House later expressed support for the agreement and called on the ship to dock at Ashdod.

On Monday morning, nine activists were killed during an IDF sea raid of the Free Gaza Movement's flotilla of six ships which had wanted to reach the Gaza shore.

The cabinet agreed that Israel must maintain the naval blockade of Gaza so that it could prevent Iran and terrorists groups such as Hizbullah from sending weapons to Hamas.

As the navy prepared to intercept the ship, Netanyahu instructed it not to harm the activists.

The Foreign Ministry said it hoped the activists on board would reconsider their position.

"We have no desire for a confrontation," said Spokesman Gal. "We have no desire to board the ship. If the ship decides to sail the port of Ashdod, then we will ensure its safe arrival and will not board it," he said.

"Israel is prepared to receive the ship and to offload its contents. After an inspection to ensure that no weapons and war materials are on board, we are prepared to deliver all of the goods to Gaza," Gal said.

"Representative of the people on board and relevant NGOs are welcome to accompany the goods to the crossings," he said.

Free Gaza co-founder: We won't cede to Israel's request

Greta Berlin, a co-founder of the Free Gaza movement, said those on board the ship had no intention of ceding to Israel's request. Nor, she said, were they impressed by Netanyahu's statements Thursday to UN Middle East envoy Tony Blair, in which he promised to increase the amount and variety of goods which could enter Gaza by land.

"We do not trust Israel anymore," said Berlin.

"Our mission is to break the blockade of Gaza," she told The Jerusalem Post. Unlike the six ship flotilla which had close to 700 people, the Rachel Corrie, she said, had only 20 people on board. These people are all non-violent, she added.

The Foreign Ministry in Ireland said it had been in touch with the Israeli government regarding the rights of its citizens on board the ship, but did not elaborate.

In Washington, the State Department said US officials had been in touch with "multiple" countries, including the Israeli and Irish governments, about this latest effort to reach Gaza by boat.

"Everyone wants to avoid a repetition of [Monday's] tragic incident," spokesman P.J. Crowley said. He added that the US had been in contact numerous times with Israeli authorities in recent weeks. "We urged caution and restraint," he said.

International condemnation continued Friday, with protests in Syria, Greece, Bahrain and Malaysia, where some demonstrators burned Israeli flags and carried mock coffins. In Norway, the military canceled a seminar scheduled for later this month because an Israeli army officer was to have lectured.

Nobel laureate, former UN assistant head on board ship

Israel has allowed ships through five times, but has blocked them from entering Gaza waters since a three-week military offensive against Gaza's Hamas rulers in January 2009.

Israeli claims that went it intercepted Monday's flotilla of ships activists on one of them, the Marmara, ambushed the soldiers after they descended onto the board from helicopters. The military and Turkish TV have released videotape that backs up that claim. Returning activists admitted fighting with the Israeli commandos but insisted their actions were in self-defense because the ships were being boarded in international waters by a military force.

The Marmara, which was carrying hundreds of activists sponsored by an Islamic aid group from Turkey, the Foundation for Human Rights and Freedom and Humanitarian Relief. Israel outlawed the group, known by its Turkish acronym IHH, in 2008 because of alleged ties to Hamas.

The Rachel Corrie is owned by the Free Gaza Movement. It set sail from Ireland. It is flying a Cambodian flag and is funded by money raised by a former prime minister of Malaysia. Among the passengers are two well known Irish citizens, Nobel Peace Laureate Mairead Maguire and Denis Halliday, a former UN assistant secretary-general. Also on board are Malaysian journalists, a member of its parliament and a former political secretary.

AP contributed to this report.

The_Dunedan · 06-04-2010, 07:46 PM

None of that matters, that's my point. This interdiction took place in International waters, outside of the Gaza Blockade zone, and was therefore illegal. The people on those ships had every right to, and should have, thrown the Israeli commandos over the side and used whatever additional force was needed to repel boarders. Automatic rifles would have been an excellent start. For whatever reason, they chose not to do so.

The Israeli soldiers, OTOH, were in a life-or-death fight. Don't believe me? Take a whack from a 3' hunk of rebar or galvanised steel pipe: you'll understand.

This was never going to end well, for -either- side. The Israeli Gov't, OTOH...cui bono.

Baraka_Guru · 06-04-2010, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

The problem lies in the fact that they -are- professionals: elite professional soldiers. Head-crackers, ass-kickers, and name-takers. You don't send this kind of person to interdict an unarmed flotilla of hippies. You send the Coast Guard and a few Deputies borrowed from the County Sheriff (or the local equivalent). If heads need breaking, they break 'em with sticks and sap gloves. If somebody gets legitimately life-threatening, they take a .38 to the forehead and take a dirt nap. You send in the likes of these commandos when you want people killed and toys broken and the wreckage deposited on the bottom of the Med without any signal or survivor getting off the boat.

At least one of them did something right, it seems: Israeli commando who shot six passengers in aid convoy in line for medal - Times Online

Willravel · 06-04-2010, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Firearms may have been thrown overboard by passengers of the Mavi Marmara, Israel Radio reported Friday, citing IDF sources.

But, like I've also been saying, the IDF and Israeli government have already been caught lying and editing evidence it's releasing. Quite frankly, the IDF has lost its credibility on this. Should an independent investigation turn up any evidence whatsoever of the flotilla people being armed, I might be willing to entertain the possibility, but for the time being it's just one more piece of information being released with propaganda.

roachboy · 06-04-2010, 08:52 PM

you know, it's pretty simple. the idf raided a flotilla of activists committed to non-violence in international waters. they fell into exactly the trap that non-violent actions set for state powers that have little regard for human life if that human life does not conform to certain rules. in that, the idf was totally, entirely chumped. and to that extent, i personally laugh at them. i mean, it's such a basic tactical error. jesus christ, it's not like ghandi's writings are hidden.

so this is a fundamental tactical error.
you want to know how to deal with this sort of action?
let it happen.
it'll disappear in 48 hours or so.

the israelis fucked up. there's little in the way of bigger lessons in this beyond something vaguely instructive about the pathological arrogance of colonial power.

rahl · 06-04-2010, 08:56 PM

Bottom line is that this is an act of PIRACY. These people were MURDERED. Israel had absolutely no right to board that ship in international waters, there is no excuse what so ever. The passengers rightfully defended themselves against piracy. All the arguing back and forth in this thread can not change the fact that it is both murder and piracy.

powerclown · 06-04-2010, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Dunedan

Hell, whack the leadership and a few firstborne sons, go Russian on their asses. Then make sure the next generation of Hamas/Fatah/whoever-takes-over gets the picture.

I agree...if they went Russian (or-gasp-Syrian) on Hamas and the Gaza Strip, this whole charade would be over within a week. Hamas is the latest in a line of unfortunate palestinian leadership more capable and concerned with terrorism and terrorist acts than governing. PLO, same thing. Nothing new there. But didn't Israel take out the top leaders/spiritual leaders/bombmakers of the PLO (minus Arafat)? They were simply replaced with the next goon in line. Look what happened with Fatah the minute they started making reasonable overtures towards Israel...Hamas spent their election victory party killing off as many members of Fatah as they could and taking over Gaza by force. These are the types of people to be dealt with rationally?

About the rockets and frog bombers...notice how few rockets and suicide bombers have gone off in Israel since the incursion and blockade. I believe that number is zero. Coincidence? It is unfortunate but what other options does Israel realistically have?

Willravel · 06-04-2010, 09:20 PM

If you think violent militant extremists in Palestine can be intimidated by Israeli aggression, I'm afraid you don't know much about this conflict. If Hamas is smart, they'll lay back and do absolutely nothing as more and more aid ships are intercepted and international investigations start. The again, Hamas doesn't exactly control every 14 year old kid with a rocket, as we saw at the beginning of Oslo.

IdeoFunk · 06-04-2010, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

The simple concept behind the asymmetrical response policy is deterrence. The Israeli government justifies the way it reacts to possible threats with the rationalization that it will deter further possible threats of a similar nature. Consider how it reacted to Lebanon in 2006 or Gaza in 2008. These were not proportional responses by any measure.

^^ Spot on. It's so plain to see that Israel is acting like a tyrant. Israel has been single-handedly carving up the Middle East ever since that fatcat Texan Bush and the US stopped giving a fuck about peace talks. I think it's more than evident that it's time for the UN to get step into this conflict if there's ever any hope for peace.

filtherton · 06-05-2010, 06:43 AM

With respect to statements from the IDF, or any other military organization: we all realize that these organizations exist ostensibly to advance the policy goals of their parent nations and not to provide the clear, unvarnished, enlightening truth about their activities, right?

So we should trust official statements from the IDF or the Pentagon as much as we should trust that guy on late night TV on the pretend talk show talking about how his book is full of things "the experts don't want you to know." None of these folks is necessarily lying about everything, but they have shown over and over that they have no qualms about telling really big lies when it suits their purposes.

roachboy · 06-05-2010, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Gaza flotilla attack: Autopsies reveal intensity of Israeli military force

• Victims found with up to six gunshot wounds
• Israel 'about to lose a friend' warns Turkey's US envoy

Robert Booth, Harriet Sherwood in Gaza City and Justin Vela in Istanbul
guardian.co.uk, Friday 4 June 2010 22.00 BST

The autopsy results released today by the Turkish authorities after the Israeli attack on the Gaza flotilla reveal in chilling detail the intensity of the military force unleashed on the multinational convoy.

Each of the nine victims on the Mavi Marmara in international waters off the coast of Israel in the early hours of Monday morning was shot at least once and some five or six times with 9mm rounds.

The results also reveal how close the fighting was. Dr Haluk Ince, chair of Turkey's council of forensic medicine (ATK), said: "Approximately 20cm away was the closest. In only one case was there only one entrance wound. The other eight have multiple entrance wounds. [The man killed by a single shot] was shot just in the middle of the forehead with a distant shot."

The details emerged as Turkey warned that it may reconsider its diplomatic ties with Israel unless it receives an apology.

The deputy prime minister, Bulent Arinc, warned: "We may plan to reduce our relations with Israel to a minimum."

Namid Tan, the ambassador to Washington, warned that Israel was "about to lose [a] friend". He repeated calls for an independent investigation of the raid and end its blockade against Gaza.

Asked if Turkey might break off relations, he said: "We don't want this to go to that point." But he added: "The government might be forced to take such an action."

Speaking at the funeral of the youngest activist, prime minister Tayyip Erdogan accused Israel of betraying its religion. "You killed 19-year-old Furkan Dogan brutally. Which faith, which holy book can be an excuse for killing him?" he asked.

According to the scientists at the ATK, Dogan, who held US and Turkish citizenship was shot five times – from close range in the right side of his nose, in the back of the head, in the back and twice in the left leg.

The oldest victim was 60-year-old Ibrahim Bilgen, a Turkish politician, engineer and activist who was married with six children. He had been shot once in the right temple, once in the right side of his chest, once in the back and once in the hip.

Cetin Topcuotlu, a 54-year old former Taekwondo champion who worked as a coach for the Turkish national team, was shot three times – once in the back of his head, once in his hip and once in his belly. His wife, Cigden, who was with him on the Mavi Marmara said at his funeral on Thursday she would take part in further flotillas to Gaza with her son.

The detail of the wounds came as yet more survivors returned to the UK and gave their account of the attacks.

In a hastily arranged press conference in central Londonshortly after his Turkish airlines plane touched down at Heathrow, Ismail Patel, the 47-year-old chairman of the Friends of al-Aqsa, condemned what he called "the cold-blooded murder and killing of our colleagues". He said: "These deaths were avoidable and I lay the blame squarely with the Israelis."

Israel has previously said its troops had been left with no choice after they came under attack from activists armed with knives and iron bars when they were dropped by helicopter on to the ship.

Patel claimed that as soon as the Israeli Defence Force helicopter appeared above the Mavi Marmara, "it started using immediately live ammunition" without any warning being issued.

After the first victim fell the white flag was raised, he said, but Israeli forces continued firing. "I think the Israeli soldiers were shooting to kill because most of the people who died were shot in the top part of their bodies," he said. He believed that later victims were injured in their legs after a "tactical move" by the commandos to wound rather then kill.

Alex Harrison, a Free Gaza activist who was on the smaller Challenger yacht, which was crewed mainly by women, said the Israelis used rubber bullets, sound bombs and tasers against them.

"Two women were hooded, they had their eyes taped," she said, describing how the yacht was quickly overwhelmed. "We stood and tried to obstruct the armed, masked men and maintained no other defence and still they used violence."

Harrison, 32, from Islington, north London, also witnessed the Mavi Marmara being stormed from above by helicopter and said the Israelis started firing before their troops touched down on the boat.

"I have seen some selective footage that the Israelis have chosen to put out suggesting that we responded with violence," she said. "You must remember that these are unarmed civilians on their own boat in the middle of the Mediterranean. People picked up what they could to defend themselves against armed, masked commandos who were shooting."

The violence was "initiated by the Israelis on a massive scale," she said, adding she was pleased her colleagues on the Rachel Corrie, an Irish vessel, were continuing to Gaza this weekend.

"I am thrilled they are going," she said. "They know exactly what risks they face. They are doing what our government's haven't and I thank them."

Both Harrison and Patel criticised the British authorities for failing to provide sufficient consular assistance while the activists were detained in an Israeli prison in Beersheva.

Patel said he was not visited by anyone from the British mission and Harrison said the consul told her that Israeli officials had prevented him visiting captured Britons.

"I did see the British consul," Harrison said. "He told me that he had sitting outside the prison all day ... asking for access and not been given it. I see that as an insult from Israel to the British, that they were denying the British consul the right that citizens have. I also see it as a sign that the British don't have the strength to stand up to Israel."

Foreign Secretary William Hague confirmed that a total of 34 of the activists on the aid flotilla were British, with all but two of them having been sent to Turkey by the Israeli authorities.

In Gaza City, the de facto Hamas prime minister, Ismail Haniyeh, told crowds of worshippers at Friday prayers that Israel's blockade was in its final stages.

"Now not only Gazans speak of the blockade, but also the [UN] security council and the international community. Everyone is demanding the siege be lifted."

The nine victims

Cengiz Alquyz, 42

Four gunshot wounds: back of head, right side of face, back, left leg

Ibrahim Bilgen, 60

Four gunshot wounds: right chest, back, right hip, right temple

Cegdet Kiliclar, 38

One gunshot wound: middle of forehead

Furkan Dogan, 19

Five gunshot wounds: nose, back, back of head, left leg, left ankle

Sahri Yaldiz

Four gunshot wounds: left chest, left leg, right leg twice

Aliheyder Bengi, 39

Six gunshot wounds: left chest, belly, right arm, right leg, left hand twice

Cetin Topcuoglu, 54

Three gunshot wounds: back of head, left side, right belly

Cengiz Songur, 47

One gunshot wound: front of neck

Necdet Yildirim, 32

Two gunshot wounds: right shoulder, left back

Gaza flotilla attack: Autopsies reveal intensity of Israeli military force | World news | The Guardian

edit (later): the narratives of what happened obviously cannot both be true at the same time. the idf is pretty sophisticated about manufacturing situationally appropriate reality replacement packages (as any military is) so....

but it is good that they managed to board the rachel corrie without anyone getting shot in the head, yes?

tifopron · 06-06-2010, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

If you think violent militant extremists in Palestine can be intimidated by Israeli aggression, I'm afraid you don't know much about this conflict. If Hamas is smart, they'll lay back and do absolutely nothing as more and more aid ships are intercepted and international investigations start. The again, Hamas doesn't exactly control every 14 year old kid with a rocket, as we saw at the beginning of Oslo.

This is correct.

If Hamas sat on their hands and let Israel run amok, it will be Israel in the negative spotlight, not Hamas,...as this past weeks events have shown. Proof being global protests against Israeli aggression today.

And Israel has to provoke Hamas into retaliating to keep up with claims of being pushed into the sea, wiped off the map etc.

The more Hamas shows restraint, the more aggressive Israel will become. This will not bode well for Israel

People are not stupid and are becoming more well rounded concerning the facts of this longstanding conflict,...and the never ending Israeli claims of being the eternal victims of terror is getting stale.

Peace and Palestinian statehood is not on the agenda for Israel. Having the Palestinian's given the right of statehood and be recognized as a people would be a collosal failure for Israel. To be seen as equals is unimaginable.

And for that the future of Israel is in the hands of Israel itself. It is theirs to lose. Unfortunately Israel is its own worst enemy and as long as they carry on the charade of being the eternal victim, their future will get dimmer and their bargaining power much more limited.

Idyllic · 06-06-2010, 08:41 PM

Quote:

June 6, 2010...20:53
Specific Flotilla Passangers Linked to Al-Qaeda, Hamas and Other Terror Organizations, 6 June 2010

Specific Flotilla Passengers are Active Terror Operatives Linked to Al-Qaeda, Hamas, and Other Organizations

6 June 2010

The following passengers on board the Mavi Marmara are known to be involved in terrorist activity. The Mavi Marmara attempted to break the maritime closure on the Gaza Strip on Monday, May 31st 2010, and was boarded by Israel Navy forces.

Fatimah Mahmadi (born 1979), is a United States resident of Iranian origin, and an active member of the organization “Viva Palestine”, she attempted to smuggle forbidden electronic components into the Gaza Strip.

Ken O’Keefe (Born 1969), an American and British citizen, is a radical anti-Israel activist and operative of the Hamas Terror organization. He attempted to enter the Gaza Strip in order to form and train a commando unit for the Palestinian terror organization.

Hassan Iynasi (born 1982), a Turkish citizen and activist in a Turkish charity organization, is known of providing financial support to the Palestinian Islamic Jihad Terror organization.

Hussein Urosh, a Turkish citizen and activist in the IHH organization, was on his way to the Gaza Strip in order to assist in smuggling Al-Qaeda operatives via Turkey into the Strip.

Ahmad Umimon (born 1959), is a French citizen of Moroccan origin, and an operative of the Hamas Terrorist organization.

Link- http://ht.ly/1UKDS

silent_jay · 06-06-2010, 09:01 PM

Still going at the 'terrorists' angle I see, well you're persistent I'll give you that much. Got a link to the story by the way, curious to see what source it came from.

dippin · 06-06-2010, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Still going at the 'terrorists' angle I see, well you're persistent I'll give you that much. Got a link to the story by the way, curious to see what source it came from.

The "source" for that is the IDF's spokesperson blog. And this after the own Israeli government has retracted it's al qaeda comment. Considering Idyllic has posted sources of every other copy and paste she's done, I wonder why this one was left without a source.

By the way, as always, that story is bull.

Ken O'keefe, for example, is a known anti War activist. Love him or hate him, I doubt he'd still be free if he were ever caught trying to enter Palestine to provide training to terror groups, or that he'd still be able to live in Ireland and fly around the world if this "known terrorist" tie had any truth to it.

But I must turn to Idyllic: what is your goal here? to debate things with people? or to ignore it when people question things you say to then just move on to the next copy and paste of information with questionable sources?

silent_jay · 06-07-2010, 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

The "source" for that is the IDF's spokesperson blog. And this after the own Israeli government has retracted it's al qaeda comment. Considering Idyllic has posted sources of every other copy and paste she's done, I wonder why this one was left without a source.

By the way, as always, that story is bull.

Ken O'keefe, for example, is a known anti War activist. Love him or hate him, I doubt he'd still be free if he were ever caught trying to enter Palestine to provide training to terror groups, or that he'd still be able to live in Ireland and fly around the world if this "known terrorist" tie had any truth to it.

I figured it was from some place like that, especially considering she never posted the link to the source.

dlish · 06-07-2010, 10:13 AM

ive been travelling through lebanon, so i havent had internet access to get on TFP.

ive come back to see that my reporter friend has posted his eye witness account. He is still in Oman with his family.

This is his eyewitness account.

Quote:

Part 1 of 3

From tear gas to bullets: Gunshots shattered call to prayer

"Everyone was crouching… I could hear louder bangs, see bright lights and hear helicopters," Gulf News reporter Abbas Al Lawati recounts flotilla attack horror

By Abbas Al Lawati, Staff Reporter

"Going to get some sleep. Action continues in a couple of hours. Hope we still have internet access."

That was one of my last few posts on Twitter before the partially successful Israeli media blackout on the Mavi Marmara, the biggest passenger ship on the Freedom Flotilla to Gaza which came under an Israeli attack that killed nine people.

The events since then have been a different experience for every person on the ship. As all reporters have been compiling their eyewitness accounts, here is my account of what happened.

After sending my last blog entry and Twitter post, I changed into jeans and decided to take about two hours of sleep before the action started. I woke up at around 4.30am with the simultaneous sounds of bangs and the call to prayers, the azzan.
Opening my eyes, I asked an Egyptian man beside me: "Are they attacking?" "Yes!" he said.

I rushed up to the press room, where everyone was crouching. I prepared my camera and went out to the deck, where I could hear louder bangs, see bright lights and hear helicopters.

Small Israeli speedboats were just meters away from me, flashing their lights at everyone in view. I kept trying to get out of the light, afraid of being exposed enough to be targeted. I lifted my camera as I filmed the boat so they would know that I was a journalist, but then decided that filming them was perhaps as likely to get me shot.
Struggling to keep my shirt from flying off because of the wind that was being whipped up by the helicopter propellers, I was reminded that I did not have my life jacket on, having taken it off to go to sleep.

When smoke started appearing, an activist handed me a handful of cut onions to smell, saying it would help in resisting the tear gas. I had no idea about the trick but continued sniffing on onion from one hand as I held my camera in the other.

I saw some impressively effective resistance. Men tasked with guarding the boat had resorted to using hosepipes to push trained Israeli commandos that were trying to climb the ship. Some were thrown into the sea by the pressure of the pipes. The pipes also briefly pushed away Israeli navy speedboats that had been firing tear gas canitsers and smoke bombs.
Other guards used any kind of makeshift weapon to defend themselves and their ship.

Some used iron rods that once made the railing on the ships while others used sling shots and chairs.

Those activists who had gas masks on were tasked with picking up smoke bombs and tear gas canisters and throwing them off board or back at the Israeli speedboats. That method, too, prolonged the battle and led to the commandos' use of more serious weapons.

I then decided that I was standing too close to the speedboats for my own safety, and decided to assess the situation inside. That is where I learned that two Israeli soldiers had been disarmed and held captive.

I felt a sense of euphoria upon realising how big a news story this would be, but then had a sense of reality and realised that events on the boat had taken a horrible turn.
Angry activists

As I saw angry activists drag one of the Israeli soldiers down the stairs and punch him, I lost my journalistic objectivity and found myself urging the activist to stop hitting the soldier.

Seeing the anger in the activist's eyes, I thought that he would kill him. I had images of the wars that Israel has waged over its captive soldiers, and the number of people that have died as a result of them. My thought was that if an Israeli soldier was to die on that ship, the entire flotilla would be bombed until it sank.

That was, of course, before I saw the bloodshed. The activists' anger was suddenly put in context when I saw a number of people carrying a dying man down the stairs. His face was unrecognisable, covered in blood. He was apparently one of the first to go down, after an Israeli gun targeted the centre of his forehead from a helicopter, spilling his brains into the hands of another activist who was trying to look after him.
Upon seeing his body I felt nauseous and had to take a step back and walk into the press room nearby. The Palestinian member of Israel's Knesset, Haneen Zoubi, walked into the press room, where everyone was ducking to avoid the windows as Israeli guns kept firing. Haneen had been on the deck outside where the battles were ongoing.

"What's going on outside?" I asked?
"What's going on? War is going on," she said.

I took a few deep breaths and went back to get some footage on my tiny HD camera. Still indoors, I remained by the staircase where, by now, the organisers of the flotilla had pushed aside activists and forbade them to hurt the soldiers.

I took a few steps down to film the other captive soldier, struggling to keep my balance with so much blood under my feet. He stood in a corner being attended by two medics onboard, in shock, crying.

It was surreal. I knew that that soldier could destroy the entire flotilla, and thought I would get some close up footage of him. I took my camera as close as possible to his face and asked his name twice. He was too traumatised to answer. I could see fear of death in his eyes. He was petrified. Then I heard women screaming. "They are coming!"
The Israelis had taken control of the upper deck and were moving to the lower floors. Their target was the press room, where most of us had been causing the bad PR that Israel had been getting. I was right next to the press room and had to rush down to one floor below as the commanders started coming down.

I left my backpack in the press room with my passport, two of my three phones, my laptop, my still camera, watch, car and home keys, wallet, press accreditation, and a lot of cash. As the Israelis took over the press room, I had a feeling I was never going to get any of that back.

---------- Post added at 04:13 AM ---------- Previous post was at 03:36 AM ----------

Part 2 of 3

Quote:

Abbas on Freedom Flotilla attack: 'I filmed the injured in horror'

Shocking events unfold after Israeli commandos storm the Freedom Flotilla heading towards Gaza

By Abbas Al Lawati, Staff Reporter

Muscat: As the Israeli commandos started advancing, we had to move a floor down. The floor there was covered in dark red footprints of different sizes.
Bleeding men had been placed in the centre of the floor being looked after by on board doctors and a couple of volunteers each, one of whom was constantly wiping the blood around them.

I filmed the injured in horror, pausing for a second to wonder if it was appropriate, and eventually deciding that I should film. I asked a passerby if any had lost their lives, and was told, "Three so far".
That was a shock. I kept thinking that this was not how I had expected events to unfold. That thought was distressing as I had prepared myself psychologically for the most extreme circumstances in advance — but not death. I had an uneasy sense of not knowing what to expect.

I could hear the Israelis coming close. They were on the floor above and I assumed that they had taken control of the press room. As they were expected to come down to the floor where all the civilians had been taking shelter, everyone was shoved into the seating room that had been used as makeshift sleeping quarters.

There, in front of the cafeteria window, lay three corpses with their faces uncovered. I just stared with an emotionless face as weeping friends paid their last respects. Most of the others too, were in a state of shock. A few men formed a makeshift curtain around the corpses as others took the blood-drenched clothes off the dead to drape their bodies in clean Palestinian flags.

Chilling
I walked further into the hall, only to find that Israeli soldiers had stationed on the deck outside, pointing their guns through the windows at the civilians outside. That was the first time I saw the armed Israeli presence on board, and it was chilling.

Through the window I could see a man of slight build nervously wielding a gun, his hand on its trigger. He must have been in his late teens, so young that some of those around us argued that it was a female soldier.

Every Israeli that boarded the ship, from the army and the commando units, wore ski masks with only their eyes exposed for the civilians to gauge his level of fear, anger or anxiety.

Beyond the window, the soldier gestured with his gun for the civilians to lower their heads. Most obliged. Those who did not got a laser beam pointed in the centre of their foreheads.

A tall and stout Bahraini man with a long beard and a short dishdasha proved to be a difficult hostage. Sitting on the U-shaped sofa closest to the window beyond which the soldier was pointing his gun, he sat comfortably facing the nervous soldier.

The boy gestured with his gun for the Bahraini to lie down. By this time, he was the only one sitting. The Bahraini, unmoved, continued as if oblivious to the presence of Israeli soldiers who were armed to the teeth.

The soldier continued his gesturing, thumping the window with his fist, and when he failed, he resorted to the laser beam. The beam landed in the centre of the man's forehead but he was undeterred. A few minutes later, seemingly annoyed at the beam, the man got up, and moved across to the other side of the U-shaped sofa with his back now facing the young soldier. The soldier gave up. A few minutes later, everyone was sitting.

Then the announcements on the ship started. Lubna Masarwa, an official from the Free Gaza Movement, addressed the Israeli soldiers, saying the ship had surrendered and its passengers would not confront the army. "You have blood on your hands. Four have died and we have many more critically injured. They need help," she shouted.

She must have repeated the message at least ten times in English, then a few times in Hebrew. No response.

Knesset member
After about half an hour, Knesset member Haneen Zoubi, armed with a white handkerchief, a message on a large piece of cardboard and her parliamentary immunity, risked her life to walk straight to the window. The soldier nervously raised his weapon and gestured for her to stop. She went ahead, stood there for a few seconds to ensure that the message was read, and walked back.

No response. The sun was up by then.
The announcements by Masarwa continued. Then, a British woman wrapped herself in the Union Jack and made the same move.

Approximately an hour and a half after the first call for help, a soldier shouted through the window in a heavy Hebrew accent: "Injured only! One by one!".

Slowly the injured were carried out. I was asked to help carry some, which led me to the second sitting hall on the floor where the injured were being treated.
I was shocked to see row after row of injured people lying down and waiting for help, some slowly losing consciousness.

About an hour later, after the injured had been unloaded, the Israelis told us to start moving towards the door at the back of the room. One by one we came out, with men being strip searched down to their underwear in full view of the women, then their hands tied with plastic handcuffs, some behind their backs and others in front.

We were pushed and shoved by the male and female soldiers, who kept saying "yalla" in poorly pronounced Arabic, and then ordered to march to the top deck where we were made to sit on the floor for the next four hours.

By one o'clock, in the heat of the scorching Mediterranean sun, the soldiers decided to move us back downstairs, saying we will now be allowed to go to the washrooms one by one. Downstairs, on each four-person sofa, the Israelis squeezed in eight people for the next nine to ten hours, all with their handcuffs intact.

The air conditioning was down and for the rest of our time on the ship we were packed like sardines; hot, sweaty, smelly and hungry, wondering when we'd reach the Israeli port of Ashdod. Some managed to pick up any food item lying around, open the wrapping with their teeth and distribute it. Most had not slept or eaten the whole time.

Any movement by the passengers resulted in an Israeli gun being pointed in their direction — except during prayers. Soldiers often tried to stop people from praying but that was one order most passengers will not take, and the soldiers eventually decided to tolerate it.

Throughout the long wait, only one person defied the Israeli soldiers successfully. That was Knesset member Haneen Zoubi. The petite woman was seen shouting in the soldiers' faces in Hebrew at times and trying to reason with them at other times. While everyone else was forbidden from moving, Haneen freely marched through the ship, reminding passengers of their rights and telling them to act in a unified manner.

By 11pm we were unloaded at Ashdod port, to see a sea of Israeli officials, mostly teenagers, waiting outside the tent that served as a makeshift interior ministry office, as they stared at handcuffed humanitarian relief workers who had been dragged to their country against their will from international waters.

aceventura3 · 06-07-2010, 10:22 AM

I think one of the fundamental problems preventing a peaceful solution to the Israeli and Palestinian issue is the fact that far too many refuse to acknowledge that there are millions of people (and some of them very motivated) in the world who care nothing about Palestinians, and only want to see the elimination of Israel. Israel is at war and they are acting like they are at war. This issue assumes a level of misunderstanding or lack of concern for Israel that I don't understand given no one here has openly said that Israel does not have a right to exist. How can there be productive dialog until there is honesty and a willingness to acknowledge an understanding of the consequences faced by Israel. Helen Thomas was finally honest about her views but how many years of subterfuge in her questions did we have to tolerate when all she wanted was for Jews to go back home.

dlish · 06-07-2010, 10:33 AM

Part 3 of 3

Quote:

Eyewitness account: Freedom Flotilla attacked (part 3)

Before hanging up, I gave my editor the final count of dead and injured, and told him to attribute it to an Israeli official, referring to the man sitting beside me, who had just told me.
• By Abbas Al Lawati, Staff Reporter
• Published: 00:00 June 6, 2010

Muscat: Almost half of the 550 or so passengers were disembarked from the Mavi Marmara one-by-one in the tent that served as the Israeli interior ministry's office.

I was taken off the ship with two handlers holding me firmly on each side as my hands were cuffed. I was filmed and photographed as I entered. Upon entering the tent, I was greeted by interior ministry officials. It was quite a relief to see real human faces after the robotic masked army men that we had faced for hours on the ship.

"Good evening. Name?" I introduced myself, said where I was from and pointed out that I was a journalist. That led them into a discussion into whether my cuffs should be removed. I was seated on a chair as a few officials discussed my situation in Hebrew.
One then looked at me and said, "Do you promise not to make trouble if we uncuff you?"
"I don't pose a threat to you," I said, reiterating that I was a journalist.
"Okay," he said, "We trust you."

I was searched down to my underwear for the second time that day, then taken for an official sitting at a computer. "Good evening sir, I am going to ask you a couple of questions," my interviewer said. I asked for a lawyer and was told there wasn't one available.

"Do you know that you have entered the state of Israel illegally?" he asked.
I almost let out a chuckle. "I'm not going to answer that."
"Do you know that the waters around Gaza are a closed military zone," he proceeded.
"I am not going to answer that," I said.
"Why were you on the boat," he asked.

"I am a journalist. I was doing my job," I said. He then asked a fourth question along the lines of whether I knew that it was illegal to enter Gaza, which I refused to answer too.
After the questions, he handed me a green piece of A4 paper and asked me to sign it. "Don't bother. I'm not signing that," I said.
"Fine. So you don't even want to read it?" he asked.

"Sure," I said. I looked over it and didn't understand half the legal jargon it contained, but understood that it was an admission of entering Israel illegally. Signing the paper would be a lie that would grant me instant freedom.

Common pledge

The man who claimed to want to help me said that most of the passengers had signed it. I did not believe him, of course, because we had reiterated time and again in the boat that no one would sign anything Israel gave them, considering that we had been brought to the country against our will from international waters.

But I had to be sure. "Can I consult with other flotilla members then?" I said, thinking of the Kuwaitis, who like me did not have the benefit of an embassy in Israel.

The request was refused and the official told me exactly what I had been thinking. "Look, it's fine if the others don't sign because they have embassies that will get them out. You don't."

"Then so be it. I am not signing a lie. My newspaper, too, has told me not to sign," I said.
Ten minutes later, the official came back telling me there is a piece of white paper that I could sign which would only indicate my willingness to leave the country within 72 hours and not admit to any crimes I had not committed. I agreed.

Chance to make a call

As I waited, the official offered me a phone call. I told him I needed to call my editor, who would confirm to my family that I was okay. I gave him the number, which he dialled to confirm who I was speaking to, then handed me the phone. My editor, who had earlier told me not to sign anything that was given to me, now insisted that I sign it as a last resort, saying that it might be difficult to get me out otherwise. I still refused, hoping that the Israeli official sitting beside me, an Arabic speaker, could not hear the conversation. Before hanging up, I also gave my editor the final count of dead and injured, and told him to attribute it to an Israeli official, referring to the man sitting beside me, who had just told me.

Upon hanging up, I was overcome by a feeling of gloom, thinking efforts to free me from Muscat and Dubai were failing. But I had to keep reminding myself of our strength in numbers, and the possible international repercussions of Israel's killings on the boat to reassure myself.

The official said that signing the white paper meant I could be deported, but would have to spend that night in prison. It was midnight and I had not had much besides biscuits to eat for almost 24 hours. I asked if I could get some food, as promised earlier. "Sure," said one official, who got me a pastrami sandwich.

I was then searched down to my underwear for the third time that day and put on a cage-bus that took us to a prison a couple of hours away.

Prison routine

We reached the prison and were given the freedom to choose our cell and cellmates. Each one of us was given a yellow tray that had a towel, change of underwear, socks, tooth brush, tooth paste, a cup, and a plastic spoon.

Each one of us was then seen by a doctor and social worker, both polite, and the latter of whom told me I was in Eda prison in Beer Sheba, south of Tel Aviv.

I then decided to take a much-needed shower. The water was cold, and its pressure was so high that my jeans kept nearby got wet. Since the only change of clothes we got was underwear, I had to put back on my unwashed clothes and head to my cell.

Prisoners had to take their own pillows, bedsheets and blankets from a stack in the corner. By the time I went in, there was only a pillow left, which I had to make do with.
I went to sleep, appreciating the luxury of sleeping in a bed after a long time.

I woke up next morning dizzy, with a headache, hungry, and shivering uncontrollably. I kept telling myself that I could not let myself get sick. If I did, I'd be left all alone. I asked a jail guard if I could get food. "Later," he said.
"How about a doctor then," I asked.

"Yes, later," he said. I asked him the time and he said it was 10.30am. I went back to sleep to wake up at about 12.30, still shivering. My jeans were still wet.

I asked for a doctor and was taken to one. I was greeted in the clinic with a female doctor in her fifties who politely assured me that she was there to take care of me. She later concluded that all I needed was rest and food, and gave me some pills.
I was late for lunch, and was left with a few bland pieces of fish to eat. Those who asked for more were told there was none. My cellmates offered me their rice, but I waited till they were done to take their leftovers.

Diplomatic assistance

After lunch, the diplomats started streaming in, mostly from Western states. After being shut out from the outside world for two days, that was the first time we heard about the repercussions of Israel's killings on the Mavi Marmara. A Western diplomat told us the events had created "an earthquake" for Israel.

Then, a Jordanian diplomat arrived and told me I was among those that were going to leave for Jordan via the King Hussain bridge that evening. I was glad, but hesitated to tell my Scottish cellmate, who had just been told by his embassy representative that he could be in prison for up to a week.

Later that night, we were held in a bigger cell with others who were scheduled to leave to Amman. They cramped about 20 of us in and it was getting hot and smelly.
An approximately 50-year-old Malaysian aid worker asked the guards repeatedly to go to the washroom, and his request was refused. He eventually had to urinate in a bottle and leave it behind as a "gift" for the prison guards.

Drive to Jordan border

We were then moved to caged police cars that could fit up to six prisoners each, and were driven to the bridge that connects the West Bank to Jordan.

It was dark and there was little I could see from the window beyond the cage, but despite dozing off every few minutes I ensured that my eyes were kept open to look outside for the entire duration of the drive. I was looking for the smallest glimpse of occupied Jerusalem, to see what it was about the city that has changed hands so many times. We eventually reached the crossing close to dawn, and moved to a Jordanian bus that took us across the bridge.

I breathed a sigh of relief when we crossed into Jordanian territory, as the passengers on the bus broke into applause. Perhaps I'll have to wait till Jerusalem changes hands again, if it happens in my lifetime.

- This is the last in the series of eyewitness accounts.

---------- Post added at 04:33 AM ---------- Previous post was at 04:22 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I think one of the fundamental problems preventing a peaceful solution to the Israeli and Palestinian issue is the fact that far too many refuse to acknowledge that there are millions of people (and some of them very motivated) in the world who care nothing about Palestinians, and only want to see the elimination of Israel. .

let me invert your comment if i may

Quote:

I think one of the fundamental problems preventing a peaceful solution to the Israeli and Palestinian issue is the fact that far too many refuse to acknowledge that there are millions of people (and some of them very motivated) in the world who care nothing about Israelis, and only want to see the elimination of Palestine.

you can look at it from both sides, or you can look at it from just one, as you have done. there are external forces at play on both sides here that dont allow this conflict to come to any sort of conclusion.

That said, there can not be any peace until there is honesty and willingness for both sides to want to understand the consequences faced by the palestinians.

am i making an sense here? it's a two way street.

Idyllic · 06-07-2010, 10:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Still going at the 'terrorists' angle I see, well you're persistent I'll give you that much. Got a link to the story by the way, curious to see what source it came from.

Sorry, silent_jay, it was not my intent to miss siting the location, dippin is correct it is the IDF spokesperson website, I have placed the link below the quote. It was late and I thought is stated the info in the quote, I should have reread it after posting better. It was not intentional.

dippin, I have no goal here, that would imply I would win something and their are truly NO WINNERS in this conflict, but the losers are innocents on both sides. I am tired of Israelis' being attacked for defending themselves and their neighbors, the Israeli citizens are just as innocent as the citizens of Gaza. The non-combatant citizens of both areas are the real ones suffering here, both the Palestinians of Gaza and the Israelis' suffer at the hands of those who would use them to promote their jihad agenda (the people of the world suffer as we watch this unfold, there is nothing good about war, except the end in which tyranny is defeated). There is far more to this conflict than what is apparent on the surface, we will see where the questions lead us but we may never know all the answers, as this is much deeper and will persist until the minds of many are educated beyond the narrowness of religion alone.

I will say, however, that the Israelis' beat the shit out of Kenneth for some reason, interesting, though I will not comment on whether he deserved it, for it will just leave me open for attack and I am tired of being attacked for educating myself further on this issue. I avoid speaking as it really does not benefit me and you can get the just of my thinking from the information I post.

More will be exposed, and I read everything you all post. Thank you.

silent_jay · 06-07-2010, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

Sorry, silent_jay, it was not my intent to miss siting the location, dippin is correct it is the IDF spokesperson website, I have placed the link below the quote. It was late and I thought is stated the info in the quote, I should have reread it after posting better. It was not intentional.

No worries as I said I was just curious as to where it came from.

Quote:

I will say, however, that the Israelis' beat the shit out of Kenneth for some reason, interesting, though I will not comment on whether he deserved it, for it will just leave me open for attack and I am tired of being attacked for educating myself further on this issue. I avoid speaking as it really does not benefit me and you can get the just of my thinking from the information I post.

Now this is where it gets interesting and the victim act starts again.

No one has attacked you, disagreeing with you position or calling 'bullshit' when you post something that can't be backed up is not an attack, like the 'hate filled animals' comment, or the implied terrorists comment, then acting like you never knew that connection was there in your post, that was on what page 1 that dlish asked for proof of that, we're now on page 6 and guess what still no proof, so this bullshit of being 'attacked' is just that bullshit, and honestly, the victim act is getting old really quickly.

You speak of educating yourself further, but it's evident from your first post on this topic you had your mind made up from the start as to who was to blame for this incident, even though you say 'passing judgement now is too soon', you've done nothing but pass judgement in this entire thread.

roachboy · 06-07-2010, 11:10 AM

idyllic: this is a contentious area. the fact that it is so the case never fails to surprise me because i assume there's a common factual starting point to some things at least relative to which one can argue one line or another but still with respect to something more or less agreed upon. when it comes to israel/palestine it seems that there are 2 distinct realities, that of the israeli right, which is also that of the dominant organization in the united states that speak in the name of israel, and that of the palestinian people. somewhere in between there is the israeli left, which represents a range of viewpoints that tend to get erased in us-based debates. which is a shame because that range of viewpoints is the most direct way to undo the either/or that is at the center of the contentiousness.

what makes this interesting i think despite the contentiousness and result that people rarely move in any given debate from the point they start from is the relation between starting point and information flows, the extent to which from one starting point you can, if you like, locate data that's entirely self-confirming of the viewpoint from which you start. you don't have to of course, but it's easy to fall into.

for what it's worth, i may argue from politcal viewpoints that are well to the left but i read around across the political spectrum. it's important to understand what the adversary is going to do, just in case the game gets interesting. but it rarely gets that interesting in debates like these, for the reasons i outlined above.

btw the israeli navy killed 4 palestinians seemingly for wearing diving gear. as usual there's mutually exclusive fogs of disinformation. but what i found strange was an idf spokesman who felt the need to mention the therapeutic value these killings would have for the idf itself. that seemed to speak volumes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...estinians-gaza

powerclown · 06-07-2010, 11:37 AM

What baffles me the most in this conflict is how even those who one would think most genuinely support the palestinians are typically the ones exploiting them the most and doing the very least to actually help them out. The Egyptians have a revolving blockade which they open and close depending upon which islamic extremist group they have to placate domestically, Jordan (after kicking them out of their country) and Saudi Arabia chime in when it is politically expedient to do so, Iran (who arent even arab) pledge their 'solidarity' with arab-palestinians yet have no problem killing 500,000 iraqi arabs in war and are obviously more interested in pulling strings and dominating the region. Instead of open and legitimate humanitarian support sent in from surrounding arab countries - supposed brother arab countries who never miss an opportunity to take a shot at Israel - we have rogue flotilla ships from Ireland filled with armed goons sponsored by shady third party operatives with extremist origins...the single unifying subcontext among all being the demise of Israel of course.

aceventura3 · 06-07-2010, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

let me invert your comment if i may

I have no objection to the presentation of that point of view and I acknowledge that the history of the Palestinian people as been a difficult on filled with occupation. I agree that there are some who would simply want them to go away as a means to, as they may perceive, to end conflict. I further believe that if Palestine existed as a nation without Israel in the picture they would have many enemies in the ME and would be at risk. Personally, I would like to see two independent, peaceful, self-sustaining nations.

I have given my honest point of view on what you presented.

Idyllic · 06-08-2010, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Friday, June 04, 2010
IDF: Mercenaries to blame for violence
YAAKOV KATZ
06/04/2010 05:06

Army says some 50 well-trained passengers were recruited in Turkey.

The IDF has identified one of the passengers aboard the Mavi Marmara , which navy commandos commandeered earlier this week, as the ringleader of a group of mercenaries who were recruited from a city in northwest Turkey, according to new details from the military’s ongoing investigation of the Gaza flotilla. The IDF identified a group of about 50 men – of the 700 on board – who were well-trained and were stationed throughout the ship, mostly on the upper deck, where they laid an ambush for the IDF soldiers who rappelled onto the deck from helicopters.

The members of this violent group were not carrying identity cards or passports. Instead, each of them had an envelope in his pocket with about $10,000 in cash. The defense establishment suspects the funding for the mercenaries may have come from elements within the Turkish government.

According to sources within the defense establishment, one member of the group, who appears to have been the ringleader, traveled to the city of Bursa in northwest Turkey and allegedly recruited mercenaries for the flotilla there.

In videos from the Marmara released this week by the IDF, this group of men can be seen preparing to confront IDF commandos. The videos, taken by the ship’s security cameras, show the group of activists brandishing metal bars, slingshots, and other assorted weaponry.

The group was split up into smaller squads that were distributed throughout the deck and communicated with one another with handheld communication devices. The men wore bulletproof vests and gas masks.

One video clearly shows a member of the group throwing a stun grenade onto the IDF commando vessel that pulled up alongside the Marmara. Another video shows how groups of at least four or five men swarmed each commando that landed on the top deck, beating them with metal bars, and in one case throwing a soldier off the third deck.

Soldiers testified that in at least two instances their sidearms were taken from them, as were their helmets and vests. Two soldiers jumped off the ship into the water to save themselves from being lynched.

On Wednesday, Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilna’i told a Knesset hearing that all nine men killed on the Marmara were “involved in the fighting.”

“There were no innocents among the dead,” Vilna’i said.

Meanwhile, Palestinian Media Watch reported Thursday that three of the four Turks killed on ship sought a martyr’s death.

PMW quoted from the official Palestinian Authority daily Al-Hayat al-Jadida:

“Three of the four Turks killed in the Israeli attack on the ‘Freedom Flotilla’ bound for the Gaza Strip wanted to die as martyrs, said their relatives and friends. The wife of one of them, Ali Haydar Bengi, told the Vatan daily: “He used to help the poor and the oppressed. For years, he wanted to go to Palestine. And he constantly prayed to Allah to grant him shahada (martyrdom).

“Ali worked at telephone repair shop in Diyarbakir, the largest city in southeastern Turkey. Sabir Ceylan, a friend of Ali, told the Milliyet newspaper: ‘Before embarking on this journey [to Gaza], he said he desired to become a martyr. He had a strong desire to die as a martyr.’

“Another Turkish victim was Ali Ekber Yaratilmis, a 55-year old pensioner. He was a father of five who lived in Ankara. Ali volunteered for the Turkish Aid and Human Rights Organization [IHH], which transfers aid to Gaza. A friend, Mehmet Faruk Cevher, told the Sabah daily that [Ali] ‘devoted his life to charity work, that’s why he went to Gaza. He always wanted to become a martyr.’

“The third victim was Ibrahim Bilgen, a 61-year old pensioner and father of six sons. He was a supporter of the Felicity Party, an Islamic movement in the southeastern city of Siirt, Anatolia news agency reported. His brother-in-law, Nuri Mergen, told the agency: He was an exemplary man and a truly good man. That’s why he was truly worthy of shahada (martyrdom). Allah granted him the death that he wished for.’”

Palestinian Media Watch reported in the last two days that participants on board were chanting Islamic battle cries and talking about their coming martyrdom during the days before the confrontation.

source: Doc's Talk: IDF: Mercenaries to blame for violence

Quote:

Netanayhu: Mercenaries aboard Gaza ship

June 6, 2010

By AMY TEIBEL

"Evidence shows separate group of violent Islamists boarded flotilla."

Accumulating evidence in the IDF’s investigation of the Gaza flotilla incident is pointing to the fact a separate group of Islamist radicals whose sole intention was to initiate a violent conflict was aboard the Mavi Marmara, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said at the opening of Sunday’s cabinet meeting.

He said that a group of street-fighters "boarded the ship at a separate port, did their own provisioning, and were not subject to the same security check of their luggage as all the other passengers.”

ccumulating evidence in the IDF’s investigation of the Gaza flotilla incident is pointing to the fact a separate group of Islamist radicals whose sole intention was to initiate a violent conflict was aboard the Mavi Marmara, Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu said at the opening of Sunday’s cabinet meeting.

He said that a group of street-fighters "boarded the ship at a separate port, did their own provisioning, and were not subject to the same security check of their luggage as all the other passengers.”

The prime minister's remarks followed IDF reports that a group of about 50 men – of the 700 on board – had been identified as being well-trained, and a ringleader who recruited them from the northwestern Turkey city of Bursa.

The group was split up into smaller squads that were distributed throughout the deck and communicated with one another with handheld communication devices. The men wore bulletproof vests and gas masks and laid an ambush for the Shayetet 13 soldiers as they rappelled onto the ship's deck from a helicopter.

The members of this violent group were not carrying identity cards or passports. Instead, each of them had an envelope in his pocket with about $10,000 in cash.

Videos from Mavi Marmara security cameras, released last week by the IDF, show the group of activists brandishing metal bars, slingshots, and other assorted weaponry.

source: The Woodward Report - Conservative News, Politics

These mercenaries (hate filled animals) boarded a ship of 700 people who were there for humanitarian reasons, had these mercenaries been able to push the IDF to the point of true retaliation, image the deaths that could have been attributed to their plan, to these selfish few in their violent mercenary provocation, image the damages that could have been done to the true innocents on this ship.... that is what terrorism is. Terrorist use innocent people, most of the ships passengers were truly attempting to help the Palestinians, the mercenaries changed the efforts of good people to coincide in a destructive "cause" and never actually cared if these innocent protesters got hurt or not, they would have simply served as collateral damage in just trying to make Israel look bad, in fact the more innocents these mercenaries could have gotten killed, the more negative attention for the IDF and Israel, the better for their jihad cause. I hate terrorism, it uses good people, it preys on innocence and the hungry, it IS tyranny in action and it resides within hamas' jihad mentality.

aceventura3 · 06-08-2010, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

These mercenaries (hate filled animals) boarded a ship of 700 people who were there for humanitarian reasons,...

Do you acknowledge that some may have had another agenda, other than humanitarian reasons?

Why didn't they use the path of least resistance if the only reason was humanitarian?

Didn't they anticipate there would be a conflict? Doesn't the eye witness account you provided show that they anticipated a conflict? Is it your position they were surprised that there was violence? Did they not know there was risks? Why was there violence on this one ship?

There are many simple questions that can help a person like me understand this situation from your point of view - why no answers?

silent_jay · 06-08-2010, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

These mercenaries (hate filled animals) boarded a ship of 700 people who were there for humanitarian reasons, had these mercenaries been able to push the IDF to the point of true retaliation, image the deaths that could have been attributed to their plan, to these selfish few in their violent mercenary provocation, image the damages that could have been done to the true innocents on this ship.... that is what terrorism is. Terrorist use innocent people, most of the ships passengers were truly attempting to help the Palestinians, the mercenaries changed the efforts of good people to coincide in a destructive "cause" and never actually cared if these innocent protesters got hurt or not, they would have simply served as collateral damage in just trying to make Israel look bad, in fact the more innocents these mercenaries could have gotten killed, the more negative attention for the IDF and Israel, the better for their jihad cause. I hate terrorism, it uses good people, it preys on innocence and the hungry, it IS tyranny in action and it resides within hamas' jihad mentality.

You believe everything that comes out of the IDF(hate filled animals)(see I can do it too, doesn't make it true), you say you're here to educate yourself, but you haven't shown that yet at all, you've had your mind made up from the beginning and are just looking for sources to back up your point of view, this is a wasted conversation, your mind is made up, anything the IDF says is true, utterly pointless to continue this song and dance, have fun 'educating' yourself.

Edit: You'd think such a big story like mercenaries on the boat would have hit actual new agencies rather than a blog that links back to the Jerusalem Post, or a site that has the header 'Conservative News, Politics'. A simple Google search and not a one actual news agency, look for yourself, so sorry Idyllic all this proves is you don't want to educate yourself, you just want to find sources to back up your stance and hope for the best.
http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&sa...otilla&spell=1

dlish · 06-08-2010, 10:50 AM

idyllic,still trying to make the connection with hamas i see?

ill wait for the source. probably an IDF article, but nontheless it's a source.

ace,

what would palestine be at risk of if it stepped on too many toes?

generally in the ME, they arent look upon with any sort of favouratism because of the negative effect the palestinian question has had on its arab neighbours...lebanon, jordan, syria, egypt in particular.

Baraka_Guru · 06-08-2010, 10:56 AM

The thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the information coming out of this incident will be based on IDF investigations and reports. Unless there is some kind of third-party investigation, you can assume that much of the information that comes out of this will have come from IDF sources.

I'm not going to hold my breath for them to release unedited footage, especially the unedited footage recorded by Al Jazeera journalists. I'm not going to hold my breath for third-party investigations either. Though it should be the case since the incident happened in international waters.

Oh, and Palestinian Media Watch.... yeah. It's good to have unbiased reporting.

silent_jay · 06-08-2010, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

I'm not going to hold my breath for third-party investigations either. Though it should be the case since the incident happened in international waters.

Oh, and Palestinian Media Watch.... yeah. It's good to have unbiased reporting.

Agreed, there should eb a third party investigation, but of course Israel doesn't want that, I mean you'd think since they were 'provoked' by what is it now 'mercenaries', Hamas, Al Qaeda, hate filled animals, they'd have no problem with such an investigation.

Quote:

Israel will reject a proposed international commission to investigate its deadly raid on a Gaza aid flotilla, its ambassador to the US has said.

Michael Oren told US broadcaster Fox News that Israel has the ability and the right to investigate its own military.

UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon had earlier telephoned Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu with the proposal.

Nine people died when Israeli commandos stormed the Turkish ship last week.

"We are rejecting an international commission. We are discussing with the Obama administration a way in which our inquiry will take place," Mr Oren told Fox News Sunday.

He said Israel would not apologise for the incident. Eight of those killed were Turkish, and the ninth had joint US-Turkish nationality.
Europe action

Mr Netanyahu was due to discuss Mr Ban's proposal with senior cabinet ministers on Sunday.

But Mr Oren said: "Israel is a democratic nation. Israel has the ability and the right to investigate itself, not to be investigated by any international board."

The proposed commission would have included representatives from the US, Turkey and Israel and could have been headed by former New Zealand Prime Minister Geoffrey Palmer.

The UK and France have urged Israel to accept an inquiry involving international oversight.

Speaking at a news conference with French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner, the UK Foreign Secretary William Hague said any investigation must be "credible and transparent".

"We believe there should be an international presence at minimum in that inquiry or investigation," he said.

Mr Kouchner, in response to criticism that Europe had not taken enough action, said the EU was willing to check cargo on ships going into Gaza, and play more of a role in controlling the Rafah crossing from Egypt to Gaza.
Activists deported

Meanwhile, Israel has been deporting activists who tried to sail another aid ship - the Rachel Corrie - to Gaza in defiance of Israel's blockade.
Unidentified Malaysian activist greeted in Jordan Activists from the Rachel Corrie are being reunited with friends and family

Six Malaysians and a Cuban national from the boat were deported to Jordan on Sunday.

Five Irish nationals - including Nobel Peace laureate Mairead Maguire - and six Filipinos as well as the ship's Scottish captain, were due to fly out later.

Mr Netanyahu has described those on board the Irish-owned Rachel Corrie as "peace activists", but labelled the other vessel - the Mavi Marmara - a "ship of hate organised by violent Turkish terror extremists".

Post-mortem examinations in Turkey revealed that 30 bullets had been found in the victims' bodies - one activist had four in the head.

The BBC's Jonathan Head, in Istanbul, says some of the details seem to contradict Israel's assertion that their commandos used minimum lethal force.

In another development on Sunday, a senior Iranian military figure said the country's elite Revolutionary Guards were ready to escort aid flotillas to Gaza if ordered to by Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei.

"The Revolutionary Guards' naval forces are fully prepared to escort freedom and peace flotillas carrying humanitarian aid from all over the world to the oppressed people of Gaza," Ali Shirazi, Ayatollah Khamenei's naval representative, told Mehr news agency.

Israel stepped up its blockade of Gaza in 2007, when the Islamist Hamas movement took control of the territory, and says its policies will not change while Hamas remains in power.

BBC News - Israel 'to reject international ship raid inquiry'

Baraka_Guru · 06-08-2010, 11:12 AM

Well, this is one of several things that will explain why Israel will be doing some hardcore wagging of the dog on this.

dlish · 06-08-2010, 11:22 AM

BG, just remember that with everyone on that boat taken in by the israelis, theres no way they'll let incriminating evidence back out.

all you have is testimonies like that of my reporter friend. he lost all his belongings and will never see them again

06-04-2010, 06:41 PM	#204 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	In a close-quarters situation, where one side has guns, -both- sides have guns. A sidearm accessory which was popular all the way through WWII before falling out of favour (and now gaining re-acceptance) is the pistol lanyard: a length of rope or elastic or even steel chain fastened to the solider/policeman's belt and to the butt of the pistol itself. The idea, obviously, was to prevent the weapon being grabbed away from its' owner and used against him. Someone who grabs for your sidearm means to kill you with it. I have no no truck with Israel or their political/territorial designs, but the -13 commandos in question don't seem to have acted as anything other than professionals. The problem lies in the fact that they -are- professionals: elite professional soldiers. Head-crackers, ass-kickers, and name-takers. You don't send this kind of person to interdict an unarmed flotilla of hippies. You send the Coast Guard and a few Deputies borrowed from the County Sheriff (or the local equivalent). If heads need breaking, they break 'em with sticks and sap gloves. If somebody gets legitimately life-threatening, they take a .38 to the forehead and take a dirt nap. You send in the likes of these commandos when you want people killed and toys broken and the wreckage deposited on the bottom of the Med without any signal or survivor getting off the boat. That's what they're best at, and sometimes that sort of thing needs doing. But you don't mix the two: you don't send cops to fight Kim Jong Il, and you don't send soldiers to arrest and prosecute petty smugglers, murderers and thugs. Last edited by The_Dunedan; 06-04-2010 at 06:51 PM..

06-04-2010, 07:17 PM	#206 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	Thank God. At least nobody died this time. Edit: Nothing yet on AJ, CNN, Time.com, etc. Situation may be ongoing. Last edited by The_Dunedan; 06-04-2010 at 07:20 PM..

06-04-2010, 08:52 PM	#213 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	you know, it's pretty simple. the idf raided a flotilla of activists committed to non-violence in international waters. they fell into exactly the trap that non-violent actions set for state powers that have little regard for human life if that human life does not conform to certain rules. in that, the idf was totally, entirely chumped. and to that extent, i personally laugh at them. i mean, it's such a basic tactical error. jesus christ, it's not like ghandi's writings are hidden. so this is a fundamental tactical error. you want to know how to deal with this sort of action? let it happen. it'll disappear in 48 hours or so. the israelis fucked up. there's little in the way of bigger lessons in this beyond something vaguely instructive about the pathological arrogance of colonial power. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-04-2010, 08:56 PM	#214 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	Bottom line is that this is an act of PIRACY. These people were MURDERED. Israel had absolutely no right to board that ship in international waters, there is no excuse what so ever. The passengers rightfully defended themselves against piracy. All the arguing back and forth in this thread can not change the fact that it is both murder and piracy. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it" Last edited by rahl; 06-04-2010 at 08:59 PM..

06-07-2010, 10:22 AM	#226 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	I think one of the fundamental problems preventing a peaceful solution to the Israeli and Palestinian issue is the fact that far too many refuse to acknowledge that there are millions of people (and some of them very motivated) in the world who care nothing about Palestinians, and only want to see the elimination of Israel. Israel is at war and they are acting like they are at war. This issue assumes a level of misunderstanding or lack of concern for Israel that I don't understand given no one here has openly said that Israel does not have a right to exist. How can there be productive dialog until there is honesty and a willingness to acknowledge an understanding of the consequences faced by Israel. Helen Thomas was finally honest about her views but how many years of subterfuge in her questions did we have to tolerate when all she wanted was for Jews to go back home. __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

06-04-2010, 06:31 PM	#203 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	but...only one side had guns.

06-04-2010, 07:16 PM	#205 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	Just heard a quick blip that the Rachel Corrie ship has been captured. No injuries.

06-04-2010, 07:26 PM	#207 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	Yeah. Daily Kos: News Happening Now: IDF takes the Rachel Corrie

06-04-2010, 07:46 PM	#210 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	None of that matters, that's my point. This interdiction took place in International waters, outside of the Gaza Blockade zone, and was therefore illegal. The people on those ships had every right to, and should have, thrown the Israeli commandos over the side and used whatever additional force was needed to repel boarders. Automatic rifles would have been an excellent start. For whatever reason, they chose not to do so. The Israeli soldiers, OTOH, were in a life-or-death fight. Don't believe me? Take a whack from a 3' hunk of rebar or galvanised steel pipe: you'll understand. This was never going to end well, for -either- side. The Israeli Gov't, OTOH...cui bono.

06-04-2010, 09:20 PM	#216 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	If you think violent militant extremists in Palestine can be intimidated by Israeli aggression, I'm afraid you don't know much about this conflict. If Hamas is smart, they'll lay back and do absolutely nothing as more and more aid ships are intercepted and international investigations start. The again, Hamas doesn't exactly control every 14 year old kid with a rocket, as we saw at the beginning of Oslo.

06-05-2010, 06:43 AM	#218 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	With respect to statements from the IDF, or any other military organization: we all realize that these organizations exist ostensibly to advance the policy goals of their parent nations and not to provide the clear, unvarnished, enlightening truth about their activities, right? So we should trust official statements from the IDF or the Pentagon as much as we should trust that guy on late night TV on the pretend talk show talking about how his book is full of things "the experts don't want you to know." None of these folks is necessarily lying about everything, but they have shown over and over that they have no qualms about telling really big lies when it suits their purposes.

06-06-2010, 09:01 PM	#222 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Still going at the 'terrorists' angle I see, well you're persistent I'll give you that much. Got a link to the story by the way, curious to see what source it came from.

06-07-2010, 11:10 AM	#230 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	idyllic: this is a contentious area. the fact that it is so the case never fails to surprise me because i assume there's a common factual starting point to some things at least relative to which one can argue one line or another but still with respect to something more or less agreed upon. when it comes to israel/palestine it seems that there are 2 distinct realities, that of the israeli right, which is also that of the dominant organization in the united states that speak in the name of israel, and that of the palestinian people. somewhere in between there is the israeli left, which represents a range of viewpoints that tend to get erased in us-based debates. which is a shame because that range of viewpoints is the most direct way to undo the either/or that is at the center of the contentiousness. what makes this interesting i think despite the contentiousness and result that people rarely move in any given debate from the point they start from is the relation between starting point and information flows, the extent to which from one starting point you can, if you like, locate data that's entirely self-confirming of the viewpoint from which you start. you don't have to of course, but it's easy to fall into. for what it's worth, i may argue from politcal viewpoints that are well to the left but i read around across the political spectrum. it's important to understand what the adversary is going to do, just in case the game gets interesting. but it rarely gets that interesting in debates like these, for the reasons i outlined above. btw the israeli navy killed 4 palestinians seemingly for wearing diving gear. as usual there's mutually exclusive fogs of disinformation. but what i found strange was an idf spokesman who felt the need to mention the therapeutic value these killings would have for the idf itself. that seemed to speak volumes. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...estinians-gaza __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 06-07-2010 at 11:12 AM..

06-07-2010, 11:37 AM	#231 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	What baffles me the most in this conflict is how even those who one would think most genuinely support the palestinians are typically the ones exploiting them the most and doing the very least to actually help them out. The Egyptians have a revolving blockade which they open and close depending upon which islamic extremist group they have to placate domestically, Jordan (after kicking them out of their country) and Saudi Arabia chime in when it is politically expedient to do so, Iran (who arent even arab) pledge their 'solidarity' with arab-palestinians yet have no problem killing 500,000 iraqi arabs in war and are obviously more interested in pulling strings and dominating the region. Instead of open and legitimate humanitarian support sent in from surrounding arab countries - supposed brother arab countries who never miss an opportunity to take a shot at Israel - we have rogue flotilla ships from Ireland filled with armed goons sponsored by shady third party operatives with extremist origins...the single unifying subcontext among all being the demise of Israel of course.

06-08-2010, 10:50 AM	#236 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	idyllic,still trying to make the connection with hamas i see? ill wait for the source. probably an IDF article, but nontheless it's a source. ace, what would palestine be at risk of if it stepped on too many toes? generally in the ME, they arent look upon with any sort of favouratism because of the negative effect the palestinian question has had on its arab neighbours...lebanon, jordan, syria, egypt in particular. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

06-08-2010, 10:56 AM	#237 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The thing to keep in mind is that a lot of the information coming out of this incident will be based on IDF investigations and reports. Unless there is some kind of third-party investigation, you can assume that much of the information that comes out of this will have come from IDF sources. I'm not going to hold my breath for them to release unedited footage, especially the unedited footage recorded by Al Jazeera journalists. I'm not going to hold my breath for third-party investigations either. Though it should be the case since the incident happened in international waters. Oh, and Palestinian Media Watch.... yeah. It's good to have unbiased reporting. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 06-08-2010 at 10:58 AM..

06-08-2010, 11:12 AM	#239 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	Well, this is one of several things that will explain why Israel will be doing some hardcore wagging of the dog on this. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

06-08-2010, 11:22 AM	#240 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	BG, just remember that with everyone on that boat taken in by the israelis, theres no way they'll let incriminating evidence back out. all you have is testimonies like that of my reporter friend. he lost all his belongings and will never see them again __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy