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-   -   israeli navy kills gaza activists (https://thetfp.com/tfp/tilted-politics/154662-israeli-navy-kills-gaza-activists.html)

The_Dunedan 06-01-2010 01:01 PM
I also find it interesting that so many people seem so willing to just take Israel's word on this.

I find this odd because the United States has, itself, been a victim of Israeli Piracy (as distinct from Privateering or Acts Of War) in the attack on the USS Liberty in 1967. While this action did not involve boarding of the targeted ship (USS Liberty) it was conducted in international waters, outside the scope of the declared conflict, against a non-combatant vessel and for concrete gain. As a result, I classify it as Piracy; YMMV.

The reason I find this odd is that the same people (right-Statist "conservatives") who insist that we take Israel's word on this current (and that previous) act of Piracy are also the same people who usually demand "blood for blood, and by the gallons!" when US assets, ships, personell or facilities are attacked.

Attacking American warships in international waters is bad, and the attackers must be vigorously punished....unless the attackers are Israeli.

Boarding foreign-flagged vessels in international waters by force of arms is Piracy, and Pirates must be punished....unless the Pirates are Israeli.

I'm personally in favour of issuing Letters Of Marque And Reprisal against Pirates and hunting them down to the last man (if possible.) I'm also in favour of any crew which finds itself being boarded by Pirates mowing those Pirates down with belt-fed machinegun and shotgun fire if possible, and simply throwing them overboard to feed the sharks if not. I can't see anything in this incidence which would cause me to modify my position on this.

Idyllic 06-01-2010 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlish (Post 2794186)
sorry idyllic, but you dont know that. Youre making an emoptive assumption based on the defensive actions of a ship that is threatened in international waters and iilegally taken over by israel.

wait, do i hear you calling for israel to be charged with piracy?


please name one person, or one shred of evidence to show that these activists were alqaida, hamas or hezbollah. sources please.
dlish, I called them animals. I said they were not kindly activists, I did not label them as hamas, al-qaeda or hezbollah, I did make a statement about the 500+ deaths in the last few months attributed to these terrorist however, but I did not say these terrorist were on the ship, but I wouldn't be surprised, thanks for the connection.

Here is what I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyllic (Post 2794183)
They were just kindly activists, right? They were told to turn around, they were told not to do this, they insisted to continue, they were the provokers also. There are other ways of delivering aid to gaza, they did this intentionally to provoke Israel and then to provoke the soldiers and finally to draw the attention of the world while attempting to demonize Israel. Do we no longer talk of the 500+ citizens and innocents killed in the past few months by terrorist (hamas, al-qaeda, hezbollah, et.al.) suicide bombers, bull shit. These were no activists, they were hate filled animals.

silent_jay 06-01-2010 01:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyllic (Post 2794197)
dlish, I called them animals. I said they were not kindly activists, I did not label them as hamas, al-qaeda or hezbollah, I did make a statement about the 500+ deaths in the last few months attributed to these terrorist however, but I did not say these terrorist were on the ship, but I wouldn't be surprised, thanks for the connection.

Here is what I said:
You called them 'hate filled animals', not animals.
Quote:
These were no activists, they were hate filled animals.
You always seem to have some excuse or something when you get called on things you type, you may not have said it directly, but you sure did imply it, and now you start the usual back peddle.
Quote:
but I did not say these terrorist were on the ship, but I wouldn't be surprised, thanks for the connection.
Like you hadn't already made that connection.

The_Dunedan 06-01-2010 01:26 PM
The problem, Idyllic, is that Israel specifically forbids the importation to Gaza of certain materials which they insist are "dual use" and would be appropriated by, stolen by, or simply -given to- Hamaz/Hezb'Allah/Al-Q, etc.

Among these prohibited "dual use" materials are cement, concrete, all types of iron or steel (including rebar and hardware cloth), aluminum, copper wiring of any type, etc.

Can you use these things to build bunkers and make shrapnel for bombs? Of course you can, but you can also use sand-bags and carpet-tacks. What these materials are -usually- used for is construction...as in replacing the hundreds of civilian homes and businesses which the Israelis have destroyed and not permitted to be rebuilt. That's what was allegedly on these vessels: construction materials. When the several tonnes of rebar are "discovered," as they will be, the Israeli Gov't will predictably claim that they interdicted a huge shipment of weapons (pre-shrapnel, maybe?) bound for Hamas/Hezb'Allah terrorists and all but primed for launch. It's how they've reacted to such "contraband" in the past, and they've given no indication of being willing to stop dealing with Gaza in this way.

Essentially, Israel will only allow stuff into Gaza that has no -possible- use, not even a theoretical ability, as a weapon. Given the amount and kinds of HME* that can be cooked up with the contents of a medicine cabinet, garage, or kitchen cupboard, you can see how this excessively broad definition might be problematic for the people of Gaza.


*Home-Made Explosive

dlish 06-01-2010 01:27 PM
i made that connection for you huh? the connection was all yours idyllic.

lets not play silly buggers here. you know as well as i do what you meant. the fact that you rephrased two of your own words speaks for itself.

'kindly activist's was originally ' activists'

'hate filled animals' became 'animals'

softening the blow are we?

still waiting on those sources...

Baraka_Guru 06-01-2010 02:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay (Post 2794198)
You called them 'hate filled animals', not animals.
Either way, that's strong language for a Holocaust survivor and a Nobel Peace Prize winner, among others.

* * * * *

And here's an interesting bit I read in a Globe and Mail article:
Quote:
[...]

“We may see something very rare,” said Michael Byers, Canadian Research Chair in global politics and international law at the University of British Columbia: “a Security Council resolution that condemns Israel and that the U.S. doesn’t veto.”

Unthinkable? Not any more. Just this past weekend the Obama administration voted with an international coalition of Arab and developing nations and against Israel over the issue of bringing Israel’s nuclear program under international inspection.

In the current matter of Israel’s boarding of the six ships bound for Gaza, the Security Council dealings could lead to an internationally mandated inquiry, and even to the lifting of the blockade on Gaza.

Indeed, the issue of the blockade has begun to create fissures in the international Quartet that has overseen the Israeli-Palestinian peace process for almost a decade.

Formed in 2002, the group that consists of the United States, Russia, the European Union and the United Nations has decreed that no one should deal with Hamas until it meets three conditions: the recognition of Israel’s right to exist, a renunciation of violence, and a willingness to accept past agreements the Palestinians have accepted.

On Monday, however, Catherine Ashton, the EU’s high representative for foreign affairs, called for “an immediate, sustained and unconditional opening of the crossing for the flow of humanitarian aid, commercial goods and persons to and from Gaza.” With such an approach, dealing with Hamas may not be far off.

[...]
Israel's status slips as governments around world condemn raid - The Globe and Mail

roachboy 06-01-2010 02:52 PM
here's the passenger list from each of the 9 voyages organized by free gaza.
have a look.

Freegaza - Passengers

not at all what you might think, who you might think, if you rely on the israeli right/ultra-right and it's pretty massive us media spin machine for your infotainment.

aceventura3 06-01-2010 03:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dunedan (Post 2794195)
The reason I find this odd is that the same people (right-Statist "conservatives") who insist that we take Israel's word on this current (and that previous) act of Piracy are also the same people who usually demand "blood for blood, and by the gallons!" when US assets, ships, personell or facilities are attacked.

Attacking American warships in international waters is bad, and the attackers must be vigorously punished....unless the attackers are Israeli.

Boarding foreign-flagged vessels in international waters by force of arms is Piracy, and Pirates must be punished....unless the Pirates are Israeli.
I have not come to any conclusions on this matter and I still have an open mind. I am also conservative and I generally support Israel.

What do you think was Israel's motivation in this matter?
Do you think it was premeditated? Insitgated?
What does Israel have to gain, given what happened?
Do you think all Israelis support the action taken?
Who should conduct the investigation?
If Israel is guilty of violating international law what should the punishment be?

ASU2003 06-01-2010 03:09 PM
So, did Israel find any weapons on board besides the ones they carried on (and may have been taken)?

The Israeli navy should have stopped them, but allowed a third party search the boats for any illegal substances before letting it go. Israel is going to have a hard time spinning this one. And making people live in realy bad conditions won't get them to think they voted for the wrong people in 2007. They will just hate them more, which isn't what is needed in that region.

roachboy 06-01-2010 03:51 PM
i think israel made a serious political error. as one of the ministers in netanyahu's cabinet argued last week (it's in an article from haaretz above) it would've made a whole lot more sense to let the flotilla land and get the press because it woulda gone away in a few days.

and this is the 9th such flotilla, btw. did you hear much about the other 8?

i've already answered all these questions above....

Willravel 06-01-2010 03:54 PM
Just my take:

What do you think was Israel's motivation in this matter?
The IDF's policies tend to revolve around asymmetrical warfare as a method of psyops, in order to intimidate enemies or possible enemies into thinking twice. Bearing that in mind, this was probably a strong response intended to deter further aid ships from trying to run their blockade. It would be devastating politically if the IDF was having to stop aid ship after aid ship from getting to Gaza. At least that's how I see it.

You have to bear in mind that a lot of policy in the Israeli government and military revolves around fear. I don't mean to offend anyone, in fact fear is a logical response to attempted genocide. The problem is that the fear in some Israeli officials and upper echelon military leads them to lose some objectivity. This has lead to common instances of asymmetrical warfare such as the attack on Gaza last year and the attack on Lebanon in 2006 (among many others). I would imagine it's the same phenomena you can see in children who were physically abused.

Do you think it was premeditated? Insitgated?
This was premeditated by both sides, though somehow I don't think the humanitarians on the flotilla knew there would be risk of fatality. they both instigated and a lot of it was premeditated by both sides.

What does Israel have to gain, given what happened?
Scaring the shit out of future flotillas. I consider myself to be a brave man, but I don't know if I'd be willing to be shot in order to get building materials to Gaza. I want to help them, but there are, as I see it, reasonable limits on my charity and aid.

Do you think all Israelis support the action taken?
They're not of one mind on anything. Some Israelis support this and others do not. I suspect there are even some that don't care.

Who should conduct the investigation?
NATO, Turkey, Israel, and perhaps the UN should all hold independent investigations.

If Israel is guilty of violating international law what should the punishment be?
Ending the blockade on Gaza.

dippin 06-01-2010 04:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dunedan (Post 2794199)
The problem, Idyllic, is that Israel specifically forbids the importation to Gaza of certain materials which they insist are "dual use" and would be appropriated by, stolen by, or simply -given to- Hamaz/Hezb'Allah/Al-Q, etc.

Among these prohibited "dual use" materials are cement, concrete, all types of iron or steel (including rebar and hardware cloth), aluminum, copper wiring of any type, etc.

Can you use these things to build bunkers and make shrapnel for bombs? Of course you can, but you can also use sand-bags and carpet-tacks. What these materials are -usually- used for is construction...as in replacing the hundreds of civilian homes and businesses which the Israelis have destroyed and not permitted to be rebuilt. That's what was allegedly on these vessels: construction materials. When the several tonnes of rebar are "discovered," as they will be, the Israeli Gov't will predictably claim that they interdicted a huge shipment of weapons (pre-shrapnel, maybe?) bound for Hamas/Hezb'Allah terrorists and all but primed for launch. It's how they've reacted to such "contraband" in the past, and they've given no indication of being willing to stop dealing with Gaza in this way.

Essentially, Israel will only allow stuff into Gaza that has no -possible- use, not even a theoretical ability, as a weapon. Given the amount and kinds of HME* that can be cooked up with the contents of a medicine cabinet, garage, or kitchen cupboard, you can see how this excessively broad definition might be problematic for the people of Gaza.


*Home-Made Explosive
Israel even bans stuff that have no possible use as a weapon.

This is a list of items that are prohibited, compiled by an Israeli organization:

http://gisha.org/UserFiles/File/Hidd...trip060510.pdf


They not only ban stuff that could theoretically be used in weapons, but stuff that could be made into stuff that Israel exports into Gaza. Goats, cattle, etc. for example, are banned. But frozen meats produced by Israeli farmers is not. Empty containers are prohibited, but those same containers filled with Israeli produced goods are allowed.

Sun Tzu 06-01-2010 08:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dlish (Post 2794174)
my reporter friend is fine, but is still in israel under some sort of arrest. he's due out tomorrow so ill hear his story first hand if any of you guys are interested.

Thank you. Please do. What a great source of information (terrible whats happening). Thanks again for sharing.

hiredgun 06-01-2010 11:34 PM
I feel like this is the sort of thread in which I should like to contribute, but I'm having difficulty thinking of something original or meaningful to say.

We can argue over the specific circumstances of this incident, most of which are already quite clear. (This would include tactical-level questions like: who initiated violence? was the ship in int'l waters? what was onboard? did the israelis offer to deliver the flotilla's aid themselves?) I'm happy to engage on that, though I don't think it's terribly interesting. For what it's worth, I'm indirectly connected to some of the protesters, and I think the leadership knew what it was getting into. Provocation is part of the game, though I don't think they expected things to escalate this far.

But to my mind, these are of minor importance when compared with the backdrop to the story; the fact that Israel has unilaterally enforced a blockade of basic supplies into Gaza (with the aim of deprivation just short of mass starvation) while simultaneously claiming that they 'freed' Gaza and were rewarded with Hamas rockets. It is an outrageously disingenuous narrative. A prison is still a prison so long as the outer walls are guarded by men with guns.

Drawing global attention to these facts has been the aim of the Free Gaza Movement. It is tragic that it took an incident like this for them to succeed there.

Idyllic 06-02-2010 05:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy (Post 2794238)
i think israel made a serious political error. as one of the ministers in netanyahu's cabinet argued last week (it's in an article from haaretz above) it would've made a whole lot more sense to let the flotilla land and get the press because it woulda gone away in a few days.

and this is the 9th such flotilla, btw. did you hear much about the other 8?

i've already answered all these questions above....
O.k. so now we are on something to peruse, why it is, do you think, that Israel allowed 8 flotillas to pass and yet at the ninth one they interced before the ships hit waters near the palestine/gaza arena of play. Why do you think they would take such risks to approach a ship that had been o.k.ed by Turkey and still they board her, why.....? Why do you think other ships connected with the flotilla outside the port, ships meeting in open water after they had been searched for contraband, why do you all think that Israel did not have a reason to do what they did? Why do you think the ship that returned to a port happened to drop all its passengers onto the Mavi Marmara, more bodies to fight in this preplanned confrontation, maybe?

I can’t imagine why Israel might want to insure the flotillas are not carrying anything that can be lobed at them, like what they have experienced for the last 10 years of daily terror from a regime that is known for its cruelty.

Quote:
1.The main objective of this study is to analyze the terrorist organizations’ use of rocket and mortar shell fire between 2000 and 2007, the years of the terrorist campaign initiated by the Palestinians (called the Al-Aqsa intifada). The study examines the extent of the fire, the policies employed by the various organizations, the factors influencing those policies, trends of escalation or lulls in the attacks, the impact on the residents of the western Negev settlements.

2. Rocket fire began in 2001 and during the confrontation gradually became one of primary threats coming from the Palestinian terrorist organizations. As of the end of November 2007, there has been a total of 2,383 identified rocket hits in and around the western Negev settlements, with the southern city of Sderot as a priority and drawing 45% of the rockets which landed on inhabited areas.

3. For the Palestinian terrorist organizations, rockets and mortars serve as an asymmetric response to Israel’s military superiority. They are simple, available and cheap. That response, from their point of view, even though there are problems and disadvantages, allows them to disrupt the life and rend the social fabric of the civilian population living with range, to bypass the security fence Israel constructed in the Gaza Strip and to create a kind of balance of terror to hamper the Israeli security forces’ counterterrorist activities. That strategic conception was primarily inspired by Hezbollah’s Lebanese model, which was regarded as successful before the Israeli withdrawal from the security zone and during the second Lebanon war. Syria and Iran support the terrorist The official Hamas announcement of the firing of a Qassam rocket at Sderot was made on November 1, 2001. It had been fired a few days previously. organizations’ efforts to copy the Lebanese model in the Palestinian Authority with know-how, training and the purchase of standard rockets.

4. Since 2001 rocket fire has been directly responsible for the deaths of ten Israeli civilians, nine of them Sderot residents. In addition, 433 individuals have been wounded, the overwhelming majority of them civilians, and during the past year and a half more than 1,600 instances of stress were reported. Mortar fire has been responsible for the deaths of ten individuals, eight civilians and two IDF soldiers. Of the 150 wounded, 80 were civilians and 70 soldiers.

5. The damage to the civilian populace is not only measured statistically in terms of the number killed and wounded or the extent of property damage. The continued attacks have an accumulated psychological impact on the population and destroy the sense of security previously had by more than 190,000 people, who now live under the potential threat of daily rocket and mortar shell attacks. They also disrupt the routine of daily life in all the western Negev settlements, cause residents to move away (especially from Sderot), and expose the political echelons and the IDF to harsh criticism. The continuing fire hampers efforts to advance a peace
treaty between Israel and the Palestinians by creating a situation of constant rocket fire and constant Israelis countermeasures.

6. In addition, between 2001 and November 2007, more than 2,500 mortar shells were fired. Their short range made them effective before the disengagement, especially when they were aimed at the IDF forces which operated in the Gaza Strip and at the Israeli settlements there. In the absence of Israeli targets after the disengagement there was a sharp decrease in the number of rockets fired. However, since April 2007 the terrorist organizations have begun to make greater use of mortar shells, especially Hamas, which does not directly participate in rocket fire. In recent months As of October 2007. the fire has been aimed at IDF forces operating in the Gaza Strip and along the security fence, at the crossings (especially Kerem Shalom) and at the Israeli settlements close to the security fence, such as Netiv Ha’asara, Kibbutz Kerem Shalom and Kibbutz Nahal Oz.

7. This study concentrated all the data and examined the Palestinian terrorist organization policy of rocket and mortar fire, beginning when confrontation started in 2000 and going through October 2007. An examination of the following graph shows the number of attacks gradually grew (2001- 2004) until the disengagement (2005), when there was a temporary drop. However, in the two following years (2006-2007) there was a sharp increase and rockets became the main weapons in the hands of the Palestinian terrorist organizations.
2001 to 2007 is 6 to 7 years of rocket and mortar fire, not to mention suicide bombers, anyway 2,383 confirmed rocket hits and 2,500 mortar rounds in (365 x 7) 2,555 days, so we are looking at about 1 rocket and 1 mortar every single day for 7+ years from the gaza strip region have been lobbed over into the homes and businesses of the Israelis people, when does this stop? What do you suggest they do to stop the bombers and the rockets and the mortars, what should they do, how should they protect their own people?

Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay (Post 2794198)
You called them 'hate filled animals', not animals.

You always seem to have some excuse or something when you get called on things you type, you may not have said it directly, but you sure did imply it, and now you start the usual back peddle.

Like you hadn't already made that connection.
Yes jay, I called them hate filled animals, (my initial statement was what it is, I never changed it, I even quoted it, no edits, jay and no back peddling either) watch the video, the soldiers came down the lines and were immediately attacked, this was not the first boarding, they boarded five other ships in the flotilla and did not meet this kind of resistance, these "activists” knew the drill, IDF will search, will seize, will take you to a port, unload and deliver non contraband aid over roadways and send the “activists” home, or prison for resistance or contraband. But these “activists” had knives and metal poles and beat them, threw them off the deck, stabbed them, so they defended themselves.

Listen, we may never know until the release of information what was the true justification behind this move to board the flotilla in international waters, but we have seen, as rb points out, 8 or so flotillas pass without this same form of issue, why do you think that NOW this occurs, what do you think lead Israel to respond to the flotilla not turning around, and why didn't they....? There is more to this than what we a privy to, more to the underlying issue than can be shared until links are connected and issues resolved to a varying degree of comprehension.

I know Israel is powerful, I know Israel can be seen as aggressive, but they have reason to protect themselves, this cannot be denied or forgotten, as we all wish to stop the terrorist attacks, we still have to recognized the mentality of the terrorist and the drive they feel to murder Jews and infidels, you cannot be blinded to the inherent discord within the foundations of the terrorists’ minds, these terrorist will use whatever means to bring about their souls' purpose and that is the death of Israel, the death of Jews, the death of infidels, it is their way, they live and breath it.

I do not want to see any people persecuted or harmed especially killed, but tolerance of terrorism is not permitted, there is no justification for blowing oneself up in a public place surrounded by innocents, there is no justification for using your own country men, women and children as shields and weapons, the reality is that the hamas is linked to al qaeda is linked to many brands of terror encampments within and without the arab communities, the Muslim communities, it is by the nature of their beliefs in the Koran, as shaped by fundamental extremist, that these "terror" attacks persist and will continue to do so until the mentality of a broken people, who are reared in death and maiming, ends. Until that time, there can be no trust; there can be no complacency, for it is the acknowledged intent of the hamas to destroy Israel and the Jews, period.

Quote:
IDF forces met with pre-planned violence when attempting to board flotilla, 31 May 2010

The Israel Navy warned the flotilla that the Gaza region is closed to maritime traffic. During a search aboard the Mavi Marmara, IDF forces uncovered a cache of weapons used to violently attack the soldiers. Flotilla leaders stated (Sunday, May 30) that violence was premeditated
(Communicated by the IDF Spokesperson)

Early Monday morning (31 May), IDF naval forces intercepted six ships attempting to break the naval blockade of the Gaza Strip. This happened after numerous warnings from Israel and the Israel Navy that were issued prior to the action. The Israel Navy requested the ships to redirect toward Ashdod where they would be able to unload their aid material which would then be transferred over land after undergoing security inspections.
During the boarding of the Mavi Marmara, the demonstrators onboard attacked the IDF naval personnel with live fire and light weaponry including knives and clubs. Additionally two of the weapons used were grabbed from an IDF soldier. The demonstrators had clearly prepared their weapons in advance for this specific purpose. In fact, flotilla leaders stated (Sunday, May 30) that violence was premeditated.

- IDF forces: "We came to speak, they came to fight."
- Israeli Navy soldier describes the violent mob aboard Mavi Marmara
Pistols found on flotilla activists: According to reports from sea, on board the flotilla that was seeking to break the maritime closure on the Gaza Strip, IDF forces apprehended two violent activists holding pistols. The violent activists took these pistols from IDF forces and apparently opened fire on the soldiers as evident by the empty pistol magazines.
As a result of this life-threatening and violent activity, naval forces first employed riot dispersal means, followed by live fire. Reports from IDF forces on the scene are that it seems as if part of the participants on board the ships were planning to lynch the forces.

Update on injuries and casualties on board the Mavi Mamara:
A total of seven soldiers were wounded - four soldiers were moderately wounded, of which two were initially in critical condition, as well as an additional three soldiers who were lightly wounded. Among the violent activists, there were nine casualties as a result of the soldiers defending themselves.

June 1: One soldier told Prime Minister Netanyahu that he had taken a bullet in the stomach and pointed out the entry and exit wounds.
A captain told Prime Minister Netanyahu that people on the ship seized the rope and tried to prevent soldiers from coming down, and that only the soldiers' resourcefulness led to its release. "I came down second and as I did, they shot at me. Seven or eight fighters jumped on me and began to beat me with a bar. I was hit on the head and neck. Another man attacked me with a knife. I lost consciousness for 45 minutes and when I came to it was already light. My friends came and saved me."
Another soldier said that as soon as he descended, he was set upon and thrown to a lower deck. He received a severe skull fracture as a result.
Another naval soldier, who participated in the interception of the Mavi Marmara ship and sustained a broken arm while under attack by the ship’s passengers, described how the soldiers were shot at from the entrance to the ship’s corridor.

"We came with the intention of stopping the ship and taking it to Ashdod, and we did not come with the weapons we usually have, we came for something entirely different."
In the coming hours, the ships will be directed to the Ashdod port, while IDF naval forces will perform security checks in order to identify the people on board the ships and their equipment. The IDF Spokesman conveys that this event is currently unfolding and further details will be provided as soon as possible.
The IDF naval operation was carried out under orders from the political leadership to halt the flotilla from reaching the Gaza Strip and breaching the naval blockade.

The interception of the flotilla followed numerous warnings given to the organizers of the flotilla before leaving their ports as well as while sailing towards the Gaza Strip. In these warnings, it was made clear to the organizers that they could dock in the Ashdod sea port and unload the equipment they are carrying in order to deliver it to the Gaza Strip in an orderly manner, following the appropriate security checks. Upon expressing their unwillingness to cooperate and arrive at the port, it was decided to board the ships and lead them to Ashdod.
IDF naval personnel encountered severe violence, including use of weaponry prepared in advance in order to attack and to harm them. The forces operated in adherence with operational commands and took all necessary actions in order to avoid violence, but to no avail.

Weapons recovered on the Mavi Marmara during a search aboard the maritime vessel Mavi Marmara, IDF forces uncovered a cache of weapons including many knives, slingshots, rocks, smoke bombs, metal rods, improvised sharp metal objects, sticks and clubs, 5KG hammers, firebombs and gas masks in case IDF forces fired riot dispersal means at the activists as they violently attacked the soldiers. These weapons were used against Israeli Navy personnel as they attempted to board the ship.
Israel Navy warns flotilla: Gaza closed to maritime traffic

Text:
Israel Navy: "Mavi Marmara, you are approaching an area of hostilities which is under a naval blockade. The Gaza area coastal region and Gaza harbor are closed to all maritime traffic. The Israeli government supports delivery of humanitarian supplies to the civilian population in the Gaza Strip and invites you to enter the Ashdod port. Delivery of supplies in accordance with the authorities' regulations will be through the formal land crossings and under your observation, after which you can return to your home ports on the vessels on which you have arrived."

Response: "Negative, negative."
You can see pictures of confiscated weapons and videos, impressive videos, at this site below:

IDF forces met with pre-planned violence when attempting to board flotilla 31-May-2010

This is not a game of who did what first or last or whenever, this is the reality of a mentality within the terrorist sect that will not be resolved until the moderate Muslims stand up to the extremist and the fundamental religious zealots and remove from the Arab people the glorification and martyrdom of hate and persecution and destruction they are feed from infancy in spoonfuls of xenophobic teachings found within their own religion.

This is a symptom of a far greater disease and one that will spread if you turn your back on it and will kill you from behind because it can and is taught to, is taught to children to kill and maim and destroy, it is the very words they grow by, it is an extension of their basic beliefs in their religious superiority and it will not stop, these fundamental radicals will not stop until they unite all under Allah, this is all they know, and it's terribly, terribly sad to watch a people struggle this way to find their own voice within a global community that does not view violence in the way they do.

This is a sad thing to witness for everyone involved, we are watching the death of an ancient culture, one rooted in antiquity and tyranny, but the culture itself is so valid and loved, it is the hate that must dissipate, but to many fundamental Muslims, hate is all they know when they look outside their own religion merely because their fundamental religious teachers fill them xenophobic hate, that is all they know. Allah help the youth of your faith grow in tolerance, teach them universal peace so they may find it also, or they will turn against you just as the crusaders turned against the Jews and the Protestants turned against the Catholics and the etc. turned against the etc. the nature of the world as taught by intelligence demands an eventual end to violence, no parent wants to see their child suffer or die, no parent of a cohesive and tolerance loving world would strap a bomb on a child and use them to murder innocent people.. ?

Baraka_Guru 06-02-2010 05:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyllic (Post 2794329)
O.k. so now we are on something to peruse, why it is, do you think, that Israel allowed 8 flotillas to pass and yet at the ninth one they interced before the ships hit waters near the palestine/gaza arena of play.
It didn't quite happen like that.

December 30, 2008: Gaza relief boat damaged in encounter with Israeli vessel - CNN.com

January 15, 2009: Gaza-bound ship abandons journey due to Israeli warnings

June 30, 2009: Six journalists detained after Israel boards Gaza boat - Press Gazette

Idyllic 06-02-2010 06:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dunedan (Post 2794199)
The problem, Idyllic, is that Israel specifically forbids the importation to Gaza of certain materials which they insist are "dual use" and would be appropriated by, stolen by, or simply -given to- Hamaz/Hezb'Allah/Al-Q, etc.

Among these prohibited "dual use" materials are cement, concrete, all types of iron or steel (including rebar and hardware cloth), aluminum, copper wiring of any type, etc.

Can you use these things to build bunkers and make shrapnel for bombs? Of course you can, but you can also use sand-bags and carpet-tacks. What these materials are -usually- used for is construction...as in replacing the hundreds of civilian homes and businesses which the Israelis have destroyed and not permitted to be rebuilt. That's what was allegedly on these vessels: construction materials. When the several tonnes of rebar are "discovered," as they will be, the Israeli Gov't will predictably claim that they interdicted a huge shipment of weapons (pre-shrapnel, maybe?) bound for Hamas/Hezb'Allah terrorists and all but primed for launch. It's how they've reacted to such "contraband" in the past, and they've given no indication of being willing to stop dealing with Gaza in this way.

Essentially, Israel will only allow stuff into Gaza that has no -possible- use, not even a theoretical ability, as a weapon. Given the amount and kinds of HME* that can be cooked up with the contents of a medicine cabinet, garage, or kitchen cupboard, you can see how this excessively broad definition might be problematic for the people of Gaza.


*Home-Made Explosive
I can't say that I blame them for being a bit sensitive to things that can be made to go boom..... can you? But here is some of what they do, do.

Quote:
Building for the future: Infrastructure and economic aid

Building materials

While the import of cement and iron has been restricted into Gaza since these are used by the Hamas to cast rockets and bunkers, monitored imports of truckloads of cement, iron, and building supplies such as wood and windows are regularly coordinated with international parties. Already in the first quarter of 2010, 23 tons of iron and 25 tons of cement were transferred to the Gaza Strip.

On 13 May 2010, Israel allowed approximately 39 tons of building material into Gaza to help rebuild a damaged hospital. The construction material for al Quds hospital was transferred after safeguards in place and French assurances ensured that the construction material would not be diverted elsewhere.

On 24 May 2010 Israel opened the Kerem Shalom crossing to 97 trucks loaded with aid and goods, including six trucks holding 250 tons of cement and one truck loaded with five tons of iron for projects executed and operated by UNRWA.

Electricity

According to the UN report of May 2010, 120 megawatts (over 70%) of the Strip's electricity supply comes from the Israeli electric grid, while 17 MWs come from Egypt and 30 MWs are produced by the Gaza city power station. Since January 2010, there has been deterioration in the supply of electricity to the Gaza Strip since the Hamas regime is unwilling to purchase the fuel to run the Gaza City power station.

Throughout 2009 Israel transferred 41 trucks of equipment for the maintenance of Gaza's electricity grid.

Israel facilitates the transfer of fuel through the border, and maintains that the diversion of fuel from domestic power generators to other uses is wholly a Hamas decision. Over 133 million liters of fuel entered Gaza from Israel over the last 18 months.

Sewage

During the first quarter of 2010, the UN coordinated with Israel the transfer of equipment for UNWRA to upgrade the sewage pumping station. In 2009, 127 trucks containing more than 3,000 tons of hypochlorite entered the Gaza Strip for water purification purposes. Moreover, 48 trucks of equipment for improving the sanitation infrastructure led to a substantial reduction in the Beit Lahya facility's waste levels.

Economy

The United States, Israel, Canada, and the European Union have frozen funds to the Palestinian Hamas government since 2006, recognizing it as a terror organization. Israel has taken measures to support trade and commerce, the banking system, and the existing financial market in the Gaza Strip.

Gazans produce much of their own food products including olives, citrus, vegetables, Halal beef, and dairy products. Primary exports from Gaza are cut flowers and citrus, with trade partners being Israel, Egypt and the West Bank. During 2009, 7.5 million tons of flowers and 54 tons of strawberries were exported from Gaza with Israeli cooperation.

In 2009, 1.1 billion shekels (about $250 million) were transferred to the Gaza Strip for the ongoing activity of international organizations and to pay the salaries of Palestinian Authority workers. 40 million damaged bank notes were traded for new bills, and at the request of the Palestinian Monetary Fund, 282.5 million shekels were transferred from Gazan to Israeli banks.

In February 2010, an agreement was reached with the Palestinian Authority's National Insurance Department to ensure that pensions reached those formerly employed in Israel. The funds were deposited in banks in Judea and Samaria, while the Palestinian Authority was given the responsibility of distributing the funds to the pensioners in Gaza.
Israel does not want to kill anyone, they want to befriend them, they have no problem with the Palestinians, it is the hamas they want thrown out, they are doing everything they can to end the deaths of not only their own people but the people of gaza outside the tyrannical hamas and other terror affiliates. The Gazans, the Palestinians themselves should run the tyrannical hamas out of gaza, they could push out extreme fundamental religious zealots, couldn't they, if they are so willing and able, wouldn't you run a tyrannical regime, that butchers people and mails body parts, out of power, but they are willing (or forced) to allow the hamas to put IED's at their doorsteps, why do you think that is, would you allow a regime to put a bomb at your doorstep?

---------- Post added at 10:21 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru (Post 2794337)
Dec. 09' - Two sides to that story, I don't know what to believe, except that no one died, Thank God.

January 09' - So they listened and turned back, as well they should considering that gaza is presently a closed military area...... you know, the whole bombing and terror thing right, the denial of Israel and the "death to the infidels" thing, the missiles and the mortars and the suicide bombings and things, right?

June 09' - Have you seen some of the videos where all they portray is pain and anguish supposedly always perpetrated by Israel, not by the hamas against it's own people to tyrannize them or to control them with fear and religion as a means to their own diabolical end.

Whatever happened to these journalist, especially the "non-biased" Al Jazeera, were they released or detained longer, did they finish and go on to gaza. I don't see any blockade of ships as inappropriate during this time of hamas controlled gaza, I just don't, the hamas (and all terror affliates) must be removed, their mentality of the total destruction of Israel is the crux of this embargo as well their xenophobic intolerance and their antiquated view on reality steeped in religious doctrines that are interpreted to teach and promote hate and death of all infidels is their own damnation. I believe Israel is doing what it must to protect itself and its people, what else are they supposed to do?

I should say, I don't necessarily like or agree with any of this, I wish none of this were happening, but it is. I will not, however, tolerant terrorism, or tyranny and I just don't see Israel as the conductors of despair in this land, I see the hamas, al qaeda, hezbollah, taliban (insurgents), et al. as the main destruction of peace and tolerance in a land hurting for a voice that does not scream "Death to the Infidels" at the same time they bow to mecca.....It is tiring the reality of hate that fills the hearts and minds of the extremist xenophobic zealots, and I do not believe that all Muslim feel the way the extremists do, I believe the average Muslim is being tyrannized over too, by their own people, and it is sad and very painful to hear and view these atrocities.

roachboy 06-02-2010 06:26 AM
first off, i don't think israel is like a person. it doesn't "want to do" things. it is a nation-state like any other. it's well past time that people thought of it as a nation-state like any other. because there are rules for nation-states.

second, the idf's obviously false cover story is coming undone:

Quote:
12.07pm:
The Israeli army has all but admitted that the activists did not have guns of their own before the raid. Army spokeswoman Avital Leibovich said two pistols were seized from activists but these had been taken from the troops raiding the boat. She claimed the magazines of both weapons had been emptied before they were seized back.

Speaking to al Jazeera she insisted that the force used by the troops was proportionate. "Any metal bar pointing at someone's head can kill," she said.

Asked to list weapons on board she said there were knives, scissors, night vision binoculars, many metal bars and sharp objects. She claimed they had been prepared in advance and added that throwing soldiers off the boat was not the actions of a humanitarian organisation.
Israel releases Gaza flotilla activists ? live coverage | World news | guardian.co.uk


the center of this is the siege of gaza. it is a brutal and wholly reprehensible affair predicated on the collective punishment of an entire population for electing hamas 3 years ago. it has turned out to be a disastrous political choice that has since boxed in the israelis into this right-wing circularity the culmination of which was the massacre of last winter. it's obvious what the intent of the siege is: to prevent hamas from being able to deliver basic services to the population as a way of delegitimating the organization. it's obvious that the israelis were hoping somehow that fatah would benefit from this. neither has worked out at all. so since the massacre of a couple years ago, conditions have worsened.

personally if i was of any international political stature and thought it would do any good, i would be on one of these boats. i think anyone who sees this siege for what it is opposes it. i think most israelis oppose it.


from a rightwing viewpoint, what the idf/navy managed is an extraordinary blunder that made martyrs of 10 or so activists and has drawn levels of attention to the siege of gaza beyond the wildest hopes of the free gaza activists.

from my viewpoint it's exposed israel to a level of pressure not seen since they began their massacre in december 2007 of people in gaza to dismantle the siege.
and i think that's a fine thing.

aceventura3 06-02-2010 07:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2794239)
Just my take:

What do you think was Israel's motivation in this matter?
The IDF's policies tend to revolve around asymmetrical warfare as a method of psyops, in order to intimidate enemies or possible enemies into thinking twice. Bearing that in mind, this was probably a strong response intended to deter further aid ships from trying to run their blockade. It would be devastating politically if the IDF was having to stop aid ship after aid ship from getting to Gaza. At least that's how I see it.
I am still trying to have an open mind on this issue. Do we know the ship was trying to "run their blockade"? If they were what was their motivation?


Quote:
Do you think it was premeditated? Insitgated?
This was premeditated by both sides, though somehow I don't think the humanitarians on the flotilla knew there would be risk of fatality. they both instigated and a lot of it was premeditated by both sides.
Why would reasonable people with no guns, attack people with guns?

Quote:
What does Israel have to gain, given what happened?
Scaring the shit out of future flotillas. I consider myself to be a brave man, but I don't know if I'd be willing to be shot in order to get building materials to Gaza. I want to help them, but there are, as I see it, reasonable limits on my charity and aid.
Israel's support from the US has been weakened. They have virtually no support in the ME. Iran is developing nuclear weapons. Hamas wants Israel destroyed. Iran wants Israel destroyed. Do you think they put the future of their country at risk to scare innocent relief workers by killing some of them indiscriminately?

Quote:
Do you think all Israelis support the action taken?
They're not of one mind on anything. Some Israelis support this and others do not. I suspect there are even some that don't care.
Another way to phrase the question - Given the circumstances on the ship as things occurred is it possible that the soldiers reacted in a manner not consistent with standing orders from the chain of command? If that is true how should it be handled by the rest of the world?

Quote:
Who should conduct the investigation?
NATO, Turkey, Israel, and perhaps the UN should all hold independent investigations.
Is it possible to get an objective investigation report from any source at this point, seems to me that no matter who or how it is done the response will include charges of bias?

Quote:
If Israel is guilty of violating international law what should the punishment be?
Ending the blockade on Gaza.
Should weapons be allowed in? If not how should that be controlled? If yes, are we a step closer to WWIII?

silent_jay 06-02-2010 07:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyllic (Post 2794329)
Yes jay, I called them hate filled animals, (my initial statement was what it is, I never changed it, I even quoted it, no edits, jay and no back peddling either)
No back peddle? You sure did try to feed us a line like 'oh thanks for making the connection dlish', when it's obvious to anyone what you were implying in your post, hell you're still implying it, of course with no actual facts to back it up, why is "activists” typed like that if you're not implying they're terrorists? Still no proof either, I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for that.

dippin 06-02-2010 07:59 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyllic (Post 2794329)
O.k. so now we are on something to peruse, why it is, do you think, that Israel allowed 8 flotillas to pass and yet at the ninth one they interced before the ships hit waters near the palestine/gaza arena of play. Why do you think they would take such risks to approach a ship that had been o.k.ed by Turkey and still they board her, why.....? Why do you think other ships connected with the flotilla outside the port, ships meeting in open water after they had been searched for contraband, why do you all think that Israel did not have a reason to do what they did? Why do you think the ship that returned to a port happened to drop all its passengers onto the Mavi Marmara, more bodies to fight in this preplanned confrontation, maybe?

I can’t imagine why Israel might want to insure the flotillas are not carrying anything that can be lobed at them, like what they have experienced for the last 10 years of daily terror from a regime that is known for its cruelty.



2001 to 2007 is 6 to 7 years of rocket and mortar fire, not to mention suicide bombers, anyway 2,383 confirmed rocket hits and 2,500 mortar rounds in (365 x 7) 2,555 days, so we are looking at about 1 rocket and 1 mortar every single day for 7+ years from the gaza strip region have been lobbed over into the homes and businesses of the Israelis people, when does this stop? What do you suggest they do to stop the bombers and the rockets and the mortars, what should they do, how should they protect their own people?



Yes jay, I called them hate filled animals, (my initial statement was what it is, I never changed it, I even quoted it, no edits, jay and no back peddling either) watch the video, the soldiers came down the lines and were immediately attacked, this was not the first boarding, they boarded five other ships in the flotilla and did not meet this kind of resistance, these "activists” knew the drill, IDF will search, will seize, will take you to a port, unload and deliver non contraband aid over roadways and send the “activists” home, or prison for resistance or contraband. But these “activists” had knives and metal poles and beat them, threw them off the deck, stabbed them, so they defended themselves.

Listen, we may never know until the release of information what was the true justification behind this move to board the flotilla in international waters, but we have seen, as rb points out, 8 or so flotillas pass without this same form of issue, why do you think that NOW this occurs, what do you think lead Israel to respond to the flotilla not turning around, and why didn't they....? There is more to this than what we a privy to, more to the underlying issue than can be shared until links are connected and issues resolved to a varying degree of comprehension.

I know Israel is powerful, I know Israel can be seen as aggressive, but they have reason to protect themselves, this cannot be denied or forgotten, as we all wish to stop the terrorist attacks, we still have to recognized the mentality of the terrorist and the drive they feel to murder Jews and infidels, you cannot be blinded to the inherent discord within the foundations of the terrorists’ minds, these terrorist will use whatever means to bring about their souls' purpose and that is the death of Israel, the death of Jews, the death of infidels, it is their way, they live and breath it.

I do not want to see any people persecuted or harmed especially killed, but tolerance of terrorism is not permitted, there is no justification for blowing oneself up in a public place surrounded by innocents, there is no justification for using your own country men, women and children as shields and weapons, the reality is that the hamas is linked to al qaeda is linked to many brands of terror encampments within and without the arab communities, the Muslim communities, it is by the nature of their beliefs in the Koran, as shaped by fundamental extremist, that these "terror" attacks persist and will continue to do so until the mentality of a broken people, who are reared in death and maiming, ends. Until that time, there can be no trust; there can be no complacency, for it is the acknowledged intent of the hamas to destroy Israel and the Jews, period.


You can see pictures of confiscated weapons and videos, impressive videos, at this site below:

IDF forces met with pre-planned violence when attempting to board flotilla 31-May-2010

This is not a game of who did what first or last or whenever, this is the reality of a mentality within the terrorist sect that will not be resolved until the moderate Muslims stand up to the extremist and the fundamental religious zealots and remove from the Arab people the glorification and martyrdom of hate and persecution and destruction they are feed from infancy in spoonfuls of xenophobic teachings found within their own religion.

This is a symptom of a far greater disease and one that will spread if you turn your back on it and will kill you from behind because it can and is taught to, is taught to children to kill and maim and destroy, it is the very words they grow by, it is an extension of their basic beliefs in their religious superiority and it will not stop, these fundamental radicals will not stop until they unite all under Allah, this is all they know, and it's terribly, terribly sad to watch a people struggle this way to find their own voice within a global community that does not view violence in the way they do.

This is a sad thing to witness for everyone involved, we are watching the death of an ancient culture, one rooted in antiquity and tyranny, but the culture itself is so valid and loved, it is the hate that must dissipate, but to many fundamental Muslims, hate is all they know when they look outside their own religion merely because their fundamental religious teachers fill them xenophobic hate, that is all they know. Allah help the youth of your faith grow in tolerance, teach them universal peace so they may find it also, or they will turn against you just as the crusaders turned against the Jews and the Protestants turned against the Catholics and the etc. turned against the etc. the nature of the world as taught by intelligence demands an eventual end to violence, no parent wants to see their child suffer or die, no parent of a cohesive and tolerance loving world would strap a bomb on a child and use them to murder innocent people.. ?

Please tell me how whatever Hamas did justifies what was done to a Turkish vessel. Also, please tell me how the rocket attacks and all that justify the banning of the import of notebooks, seeds, construction material, and so on.

Idyllic 06-02-2010 08:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by silent_jay (Post 2794369)
No back peddle? You sure did try to feed us a line like 'oh thanks for making the connection dlish', when it's obvious to anyone what you were implying in your post, hell you're still implying it, of course with no actual facts to back it up, why is "activists” typed like that if you're not implying they're terrorists? Still no proof either, I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for that.
jay, I really had not read that much into the idea of an actual linked terrorist on the ship because they used clubs, poles, chairs, and knives as opposed to guns, so no, I did not make that initial jump. I referred to them as “activist” because an activist, in my opinion, tries to change something for the betterment, as these people who immediately attacked the IDF were changing nothing except their own fate, they should be activist against the hamas, or at the least trying to convince the hamas to accept Israel and then the embargo would end. If I were a true activist who wanted to see my people freed I would take my problems to the hamas who will not acknowledge the rights of Israelis and who wish the demises of all Israelis, that is the axis to the ends of this embargo. But since you brought up the issue and are determined for me to reply, I shall, with a little, very little, looking, low and behold:
Quote:
IDF: Global Jihad links on flotilla
By YAAKOV KATZ
06/01/2010 22:41

Fifty 'Mavi Marmara' passengers tied to global jihad network.

Dozens of passengers who were aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger ship are suspected of having connections with global jihad-affiliated terrorist organizations, defense officials said on Tuesday, amid growing concerns that Turkish warships would accompany a future flotilla to the Gaza Strip.

According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups.

RELATED:
Editorial: A turning point for Turkey
What is the IHH?

During its searches of the Mavi Marmara on Tuesday, the military also discovered a cache of bulletproof vests and night-vision goggles, as well as gas masks. On Monday morning, at least nine foreign activists were killed during the navy’s takeover of the Mavi Marmara, which was trying to break Israel’s blockade of the Gaza Strip.

The group of over 50 passengers with possible terror connections have refused to identify themselves and were not carrying passports. Many of them were carrying envelopes packed with thousands of dollars in cash.

The military is working to identify the passengers and is looking into the possibility that some of them have been involved in terror attacks. Some of them are apparently known Islamic extremists.

“This is the group that was behind the violent lynch against the naval commandos,” a defense official said. “They came on board the ship prepared and after they had trained for the expected navy takeover.”

Late Tuesday, there were reports that Issam al-Budur, Jordan’s consul in Israel, reached an agreement with Israel according to which another group of 124 detained flotilla activists would be taken by bus to Jordan and sent from there to their home countries. The detainees are Jordanian, Mauritanian, Moroccan, Kuwaiti, Pakistani, Indonesian and Syrian.

Meanwhile Tuesday, Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan warned Israel not to test Ankara’s patience.

“Turkey’s hostility is as strong as its friendship is valuable,” he said. “Israel in no way can legitimize this murder, it cannot wash its hand of this blood.”

This comment, officials said, could signify a change in Turkish military posture in the event that another flotilla is dispatched to the Gaza Strip. One official said that the chances that Turkey would send navy ships were slim – due to its membership in NATO – but that the issue was of great concern.

“This is a definite possibility that we need to prepare for,” a senior defense official said.

The flotilla that arrived late on Sunday night comprised six ships, and another two ships, including the Rachel Corrie, are expected to attempt to enter Israeli waters in the coming days.

Greta Berlin of the Free Gaza Movement, which organized the flotilla, said that two vessels, one a cargo ship and another carrying about three dozen passengers, would arrive in the region late this week or early next week.

“This initiative is not going to stop,” she said from the group’s base in Cyprus. “We think eventually Israel will get some kind of common sense. They’re going to have to stop the blockade of Gaza, and one of the ways to do this is for us to continue to send the boats.”

Irish Prime Minister Brian Cowen described the Rachel Corrie as Irish-owned and said it should be allowed to finish its mission, according to Reuters. The ship was carrying 15 activists, including a northern Irish Nobel Peace laureate.
“The government has formally requested the Israeli government to allow the Irish-owned ship... to be allowed to complete its journey unimpeded and discharge its humanitarian cargo in Gaza,” Cowen told members of parliament in Dublin.

Navy sources said that the ships sailing toward Gaza would be intercepted the same way the flotilla was stopped on Monday morning, although it had yet to be decided if the operation would be carried out by Shayetet 13, the navy’s commando unit.

“We are tracking the ships and are under orders to stop them,” a top navy officer said.

According to the sources, in a future operation, the navy would use more force.

“We boarded the ship [the Mavi Marmara] and were attacked as if it were a war,” one officer said. “That will mean that we will have to come prepared in the future as if it were a war.”
I wonder why they refuse to identify themselves, don’t you jay?

You know this brings up a whole new round of questions, like what, if any, did Turkey have to do in this, since they did say the ships had been searched and now they are saying they will possibly send their navy to protect any more flotillas, wow? They have been going through some command changes lately, I wonder if Turkey is becoming more sympathetic to the, well, just to….. interesting?

roachboy 06-02-2010 08:18 AM
i don't see any logical connection between people acting to pressure israel to end the siege of gaza and others, maybe like yourself, who would bring pressure on hamas. it's like saying that people who opposed the war in iraq should have been for it. it's goofy.

there's myriad reasons to oppose the continuation of the siege of gaza. if you like israel in that rah team kinda way, the fact that it's a stupid policy extension the results of which are exactly the opposite of what was intended might be reason enough to think ending the siege a good idea, yes?

silent_jay 06-02-2010 08:20 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyllic (Post 2794381)
jay, I really had not read that much into the idea of an actual linked terrorist on the ship because they used clubs, poles, chairs, and knives as opposed to guns, so no, I did not make that initial jump.
Sorry, you may not have meant it that way, but you're post sure implied it, and I'm not quite buying you hadn't made that connection before, your post just doesn't show it.

Quote:
I wonder why they refuse to identify themselves, don’t you jay?

You know this brings up a whole new round of questions, like what, if any, did Turkey have to do in this, since they did say the ships had been searched and now they are saying they will possibly send their navy to protect any more flotillas, wow? They have been going through some command changes lately, I wonder if Turkey is becoming more sympathetic to the, well, just to….. interesting?
From your own article:
Quote:
According to the defense officials, the IDF has identified about 50 passengers on the ship who could have terrorist connections with global jihad-affiliated groups.
Could have, could, doesn't mean does have, means could have, which hasn't been proven, and it's from Israeli defense officials so take it with a grain of salt, but you seem to believe anything they say as gospel, so of course, they must be terrorists.

Idyllic 06-02-2010 08:32 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dippin (Post 2794378)
Please tell me how whatever Hamas did justifies what was done to a Turkish vessel. Also, please tell me how the rocket attacks and all that justify the banning of the import of notebooks, seeds, construction material, and so on.
"Turkey's Islamic supremacist Prime Minister fulminates about Israel's acts of defense against the Hamas-linked Jihad Flotilla."

Quote:
Turks irked: Islamic supremacist Turkish PM says "Israel's behavior should definitely, definitely be punished...Today is the beginning of a new age. Things will never be the same again."

As Turkey embraces, and attempts to lead, the latest jihad against Israel, Turkey's Islamic supremacist Prime Minister fulminates about Israel's acts of defense against the Hamas-linked Jihad Flotilla. "Turkey's PM says Israel should be punished," by Pinar Aydinli and Tulay Karadeniz for Reuters, June 1:

ANKARA (Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan called Tuesday for Israel to be punished for storming a Turkish aid ship and said "nothing would ever be the same" in relations between the two allies.

Turkey was infuriated by the killing of nine people, including four Turks, during the Israeli assault Monday to stop a convoy of six vessels delivering aid to the Gaza Strip, and 368 Turks were still being held in Israel.

"Israel's behavior should definitely, definitely be punished," a spirited Erdogan told a meeting of his parliamentary deputies broadcast on live television.

"No one should try to test Turkey's patience," he said.

"The time has come for the international community to say 'enough'," he said. "The United Nations must not stop at its resolution condemning Israel, but stand behind its resolution."...

"Israel should lift the inhumane embargo on Gaza right away. Killing innocent people is a wicked recklessness," he said.

Erdogan has become popular throughout the Islamic world for his trenchant criticism of Israeli policies toward the Palestinians. With an election due by July next year, Erdogan could bolster support for his Islamist-leaning AK Party....

"Today is the beginning of a new age. Things will never be the same again," he declared. "We will never turn our back on the Palestinians."...
This is from Jihad Watch..... Back read for information about the hamas and their tyrannical regime and denial of Israel as a people or a nation-state of Israelis and Palestinians and Christians, et al. The involvement of Turkey and their apparent sympathetic tone for the hamas is frightening. I am beginning to wonder just how innocent these people on this ship really were and if this whole thing wasn't some conspiracy to attempt to force an end to the blockade in which allowing things like bulletproof jackets and night vision goggles and 50 unnamed cash ridden men into gaza, with possible terrorist links, with the full intent of more if they somehow get their way and the blockade does end, is just the minutest icing on the cake of what will enter into the hands of the hamas and it's terrorist affiliates, scary.

as for aid:

Quote:
Behind the Headlines: The Israeli humanitarian lifeline to Gaza
25 May 2010
Despite attacks by Hamas, Israel maintains an ongoing humanitarian corridor for the transfer of food and humanitarian supplies to Gaza, used by internationally recognized organizations including the United Nations and the Red Cross.

Fostering hope and trust - Quality of life in Gaza

The cycle of life

* Projected life expectancy in the Gaza Strip (2010) is 73.86, greater than Estonia, Malaysia, Jamaica and Bulgaria.
* The infant mortality rate in Gaza is 17.71 per 1000, lower than that of China, Jordan, Lebanon and Thailand.
* Fertility rates are about five children per family, equal to many African nations such as Rwanda and Senegal.

Healthcare

Palestinian families receive the same subsidized healthcare as Israelis, about 10% of the cost for the same treatment in the United States.

Schoolchildren

Israel transfers school equipment supplied by UNRWA including notebooks, school bags, writing implements and textbooks. Israel is currently coordinating the transfer of 200,000 laptops for Gaza schoolchildren and the shipment of 74 maritime containers for conversion into Gaza classrooms.

In the first quarter of 2010, Israel transferred 250 trucks with equipment for the UNWRA summer camp, including arts-and-crafts equipment, swimming pools, inflatable toys, ice cream machines, musical instruments, clothing, sports equipment.

Electronic life

About 20% of the population in Gaza owns a personal computer - this is more than Portugal, Brazil, Saudi Arabia or Russia. They have access to ADSL and dial-up Internet service, provided by one of four providers.

About 70% of Gazans own a TV and radio and have access to satellite TV or broadcast TV from the PA or Israel.

Gaza has well-developed telephone landlines, and extensive mobile telephone services provided by PalTel (Jawwal) and the Israeli provider Cellcom.

According to USAID report, 81% of households in Gaza have access to a cell phone. The PA-owned cell phone provider Jawwal has more than 1 million cellular subscribers.

Travel

Despite the inherent dangers involved, Israel permits Gazans and visitors to travel between Gaza and Israel, from Gaza to Judea and Samaria (the West Bank), and even abroad for medical treatment, religious pilgrimages, and business trips. Whenever possible Israel allows for diplomatic activities and trade and commerce with the Gaza Strip.

In additional to medical travel, 21,200 activists from international organizations and over 400 diplomatic delegations were permitted entry into Gaza, while 2,200 Palestinians employed by international organizations were given exit permits from the Gaza Strip.

147 permits were given to Palestinian students for academic studies around the world and special permission was given to Gazan footballers to train in Judea and Samaria and compete in international matches abroad.

During the Christmas holiday, approximately 400 permits were given to visit Bethlehem from Gaza as well 100 permits to travel abroad. In addition, 257 permits were given to businessmen from Gaza to facilitate business operations.

roachboy 06-02-2010 09:01 AM
you cannot be serious about your characterization of the prime minister of turkey.
but if you're going to take your information from jihad watch, a program of the david horowitz information center, then i suppose facts are secondary to ideology a priori.

it's a shame though because these flights of paranoid fantasy are making anything like a coherent discussion impossible.

Baraka_Guru 06-02-2010 09:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy (Post 2794388)
you cannot be serious about your characterization of the prime minister of turkey.
but if you're going to take your information from jihad watch, a program of the david horowitz information center, then i suppose facts are secondary to ideology a priori.

it's a shame though because these flights of paranoid fantasy are making anything like a coherent discussion impossible.
You could have stopped at "Robert Spencer," but whatever.

Cimarron29414 06-02-2010 09:21 AM
Idyllic,

My best friend is Turkish. His father is ex-special forces from the Turkish military. Turkey's constitution is secular, to the extreme. As a matter of fact, it has been written into their Constitution that if the government attempts to inject Islam into the running of the nation, the military will take over the country, retire the entire government and hold new elections (with completely new people). This has happened twice in his life, once the government was re-elected, the other time the government withdrew the proposed law and remained. In short, to call Turkey's PM an Islamic supremacist is simply false. If there was even an inkling of truth in that, he'd be thrown out on his ear by an entire tank division.

I recognize that you were quoting, but be suspicious of everything you read, not just the stuff you disagree with - especially when it comes to the middle east. Everyone writing about the middle east has an agenda.

aceventura3 06-02-2010 10:22 AM
I would like to see how people posting here answer:

Does Israel have a right to exist?

My answer is - yes.

My gut tells me that there is nothing Israel could do, nothing they could concede, nothing they could compromise would be good enough. I would love to see evidence or something that would contradict my gut feeling.

Cimarron29414 06-02-2010 10:33 AM
Does Israel have a right to exist? - Yes

Do the Palestinian people have the right to self-rule?

Idyllic 06-02-2010 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy (Post 2794388)
you cannot be serious about your characterization of the prime minister of turkey.
but if you're going to take your information from jihad watch, a program of the david horowitz information center, then i suppose facts are secondary to ideology a priori.

it's a shame though because these flights of paranoid fantasy are making anything like a coherent discussion impossible.
“flights of paranoid fantasy are making anything like a coherent discussion impossible”

What are you saying here rb, are you implying I am paranoid, what would I be paranoid for, are you implying I live in a fantasy world where my views alone are so far fetched as to be flighty? Is this what you consider a discussion, let alone coherent to imply these things of me? If my discussion is not coherent enough for you, then please don’t read my posts, I have a right to my opinions, slandering the Turkey PM was not one of them. I was interested in the quotes of Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, you know, the things he was saying about this issue, and I found them, I tried CNN, but to no avail so reuters would have to do (via jihad watch as they had condensed to his quotes alone), I found it interesting the turn of Erdogan in not accepting any responsibility for this incident on HIS ships, by his people, but in no way did I slander him.

rb, you did notice it was put in quotes right, "like this" and repeated from the quote box, you did see that, right? Look the whole Turkey connection is coming about from the intense animosity the PM is displaying and his insistence on the U.S. solidarity bit but no acknowledgment of the possible terror links of some of the unnamed aggressive passengers and the reason for so much contraband which was supposed to have been checked before it left Turkey on that there Turkey boat to begin with.

I can quote from anywhere and not find full agreement with such and I think it is a bit trivial to take something I quote and apply it to me personally unless I say, YES, I AGREE WITH THIS..... or do you always agree with what you quote out? But for arguments sake let’s say I quote directly from Reuters:

Quote:
(Reuters) - Turkish Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan called Tuesday for Israel to be punished for storming a Turkish aid ship and said "nothing would ever be the same" in relations between the two allies.
Turkey was infuriated by the killing of nine people, including four Turks, during the Israeli assault Monday to stop a convoy of six vessels delivering aid to the Gaza Strip, and 368 Turks were still being held in Israel.
"Israel's behavior should definitely, definitely be punished," a spirited Erdogan told a meeting of his parliamentary deputies broadcast on live television.
"No one should try to test Turkey's patience," he said.
"The time has come for the international community to say 'enough'," he said. "The United Nations must not stop at its resolution condemning Israel, but stand behind its resolution."
The Turkish leader said he had spoken to German Chancellor Angela Merkel and British Prime Minister David Cameron, and would deliver the same message when he speaks to U.S. President Barack Obama in a telephone call later Tuesday.
"Israel should lift the inhumane embargo on Gaza right away. Killing innocent people is a wicked recklessness," he said.
Erdogan has become popular throughout the Islamic world for his trenchant criticism of Israeli policies toward the Palestinians. With an election due by July next year, Erdogan could bolster support for his Islamist-leaning AK Party.
ESTRANGED ALLIES
Speaking in Washington, Foreign Minister Ahmet Davutoglu said the Israeli action damaged wider Middle East peace efforts.
"How can we rely that we have a real counterpart who wants peace even if they do not respect the citizens of a friendly country?" he told reporters at a breakfast meeting in Washington. "If they don't act, how can we convince Syria or other countries in the region that they want peace?"
Relations between Turkey and Israel have deteriorated sharply because of Erdogan's stand over the Palestinians over the past year, and there was some expectation that the Turkish leader could finally break an increasingly awkward alliance.
Erdogan demanded the release of Turkish nationals and the ships being held in Israel, but stopped short of announcing immediate measures, while making it clear that the Israel-Turkey relationship had been irreparably damaged.
"Today is the beginning of a new age. Things will never be the same again," he declared. "We will never turn our back on the Palestinians."
Monday, Turkey recalled its envoy to Israel, canceled joint military exercises, and successfully called for an emergency meeting of the U.N. Security Council to condemn the Jewish State's actions.
Israel and Turkey have had a close military alliance and economic relationship for more than a decade. Senior ministers and military chiefs from both countries have been in contact since the crisis erupted.
But Energy Minister Taner Yildiz signaled ties were under review.
"We have examined the dimensions of our energy cooperation with Israel, a strategic decision may be taken on the prime minister's instruction," Yildiz told reporters.
Bilateral trade reached $2.5 billion in 2009, with Turkey buying military hardware from the Jewish state.
Aside from the bilateral trade, there are plans for projects in energy, agriculture and water between Turkey and Israel that would involve billions of dollars.
But Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul said the diplomatic storm would not affect the planned delivery of Israel-made Heron drone aircraft to Turkey. Earlier this year, the two countries wrapped up the purchase of 10 Heron drones in a deal worth $180 million.
(Writing by Simon Cameron-Moore; Editing by Ralph Boulton
I just don’t think that helped any, but if it helps you to NOT see me, or attempt to portray me, as some xenophobic, paranoid, delusional flights of fantasy girl, wait lets’ not forget Islamophobic, (thanks Baraka) then I hope you understand now. The only phobic I am is cryophobic, being the hot-blooded bitch I am. :)

Thank You, Cimarron29414, my intent is not to step on too many toes and yet still be able to dissect this issue from many perspectives. I apologize if I have offended anyone, that is definitely not what I am about. And I am still learning too. It was absolutely not my intention to label him an Islamic supremacist (nor did I), if I came across that way, however, then I am truly sorry, I don't know enough about the Turkey connection except what I am uncovering as I read along.

Willravel 06-02-2010 10:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3 (Post 2794401)
Does Israel have a right to exist?
Sure.

Not as a theocracy, though. Theocratic rule has demonstrated that it's fundamentally undemocratic and seems to me to be antithetical to freedom and equality. And not without consequences for human rights violations. And not with financial aid from my country (we're in a pretty bad way with money at the moment). And within the borders they agreed to in the 1960s.

But sure, Israel can exist.

silent_jay 06-02-2010 10:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyllic (Post 2794404)
I just don’t think that helped any, but if it helps you to NOT see me, or attempt to portray me, as some xenophobic, paranoid, delusional flights of fantasy girl, wait lets’ not forget Islamophobic, (thanks Baraka) then I hope you understand now. The only phobic I am is cryophobic, being the hot-blooded bitch I am. :)
You do know BG was calling Robert Spencer an Islamophobe right? I mean that was pretty obvious just by reading is post.
Quote:
You could have stopped at "Robert Spencer," but whatever.
Quote:
....I don't know enough about the Turkey connection except what I am uncovering as I read along.
So, you don't know enough about the Turkey connection, but you know you want their President to acknowledge 'possible terrorist links to some unnamed people on the ships', well for someone who doesn't know enough about it, you sure do seem convinced there were 'terrorists' on these ships, or are they back to being 'hate filled animals'.

Idyllic 06-02-2010 10:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cimarron29414 (Post 2794403)
Does Israel have a right to exist? - Yes

Do the Palestinian people have the right to self-rule?
I agree the Israelis have a right to exist.

I very much agree that the Palestinians have absolutely a right to self-rule.

I am not talking about the Palestinians, I am talking about the hooded terrorist affiliated hamas that tyrannize the Palestinians too. If the Palestinians, the Gazans, could exile the terror linked hamas, and I wish they could and would, I think this is what Israel wants also, as do I believe many of the Palestinians that are being demoralized at the hands of hamas and the additional terrorists who will be coming to assist the hamas in their chaos and disorder which is what the embargo is attempting to prevent, note the unnamed men with all the monies and the bulletproof vests and the night goggles and the knives and etc....

hiredgun 06-02-2010 10:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by aceventura3 (Post 2794401)
I would like to see how people posting here answer:

Does Israel have a right to exist?

My answer is - yes.

My gut tells me that there is nothing Israel could do, nothing they could concede, nothing they could compromise would be good enough. I would love to see evidence or something that would contradict my gut feeling.
Ace - though I think the question is usually a red herring, my answer is yes, Israel has a right to exist.

But I have to disagree in the strongest terms with your gut feeling about the amenability of Palestinians to compromise.

Exhibit A is the excellent work of OneVoice, an Israeli/Palestinian/International organization that aims to dispel myths on both sides that the other side's population is 'not a partner for peace'.

OneVoice has conducted extensive grassroots work and hammered out a set of proposals (starting from the Clinton Parameters of 2000) that have 74% support among Palestinians and 78% support among Israelis. This is not just a simple "do you support a two-state solution?" poll, but a concrete set of ideas about what should happen with respect to Jerusalem, refugees, borders, etc. There are a lot of thorny issues, but the idea that there is no plausible middle ground acceptable to both populations is patently false.

OneVoice - Programs: Public Polling Results


Exhibit B is the current prime minister, Salam Fayyad.

Op-Ed Columnist - Fayyad's Road to Palestine - NYTimes.com

Quote:
Fayyad, 58, is a small, precise, U.S.-educated man with a very ordered mind. He builds long, intricate sentences with an academic bent and is given to words like “axiomatic” or “purview.” For almost a decade his home was the World Bank; he’s hardly a political firebrand. Armed struggle has never been his thing. But right now he is a man with a mission.

That mission is a two-year program, begun last August, to ready Palestine for statehood by the second half of 2011. It represents a break with past Palestinian failure in that it espouses nonviolence — “an ironclad commitment, not a seasonal thing,” he said — and is focused on prosaic stuff like building institutions (police, schools, a justice system, roads and an economy) rather than exalted proclamations.
Unknown to most casual observers, there is a quiet revolution going on in the West Bank right now. GDP growth is in double-digits and there is a real chance - maybe the last chance - to transform the West Bank into a viable economic entity. But the life-shattering blockade of Gaza poses a long-term threat both to Israeli security and to the future of a Palestinian state - this aside from the sheer human cost.

The_Jazz 06-02-2010 10:50 AM
Idyllic, you certain implied that you were sticking him with that label with the way you constructed your post. I'll admit that way you put together information often leaves me guessing as to what you really mean. If you'd like help figuring how to construct posts so that less is left to reader interpretation, I'm a PM away. As it stands, you're hurting whatever argument it is you're trying to make.

As for the topic, it seems to me that Israel had a legal blockade under international law and these cats ran it. Israel was within their rights to respond. That said, the use of deadly force was stupid.

And in the greater picture, the blockade is a crime against humanity.

roachboy 06-02-2010 10:52 AM
idyllic...all i'll say is that i am wary about sourcing and try not to make uninformed choices in terms of what i choose to post as informational bits. david horowitz is a problematic source. robert spenser is a problematic source. self-evidentially false statements about well-known political figures are problems. they just are. they play into the rhetorical game you're running in this thread. and you're aware that you're doing it, so there's no need to rehearse its outlines.

the idf infotainment about "aggressive passengers" has been effectively discarded by the israeli military itself.

you can scroll through this if you like:

Israel releases Gaza flotilla activists ? as it happened | World news | guardian.co.uk

there was more here, but i think i'll leave it at this for the moment as others have posted in the meantime.


and to answer the question above:

israel exists.
palestine should rule itself.

post-67, the central obstacles to peace start with the israeli settlements which are a motor for israeli colonialism. that's why self-rule for palestine is such a problem.

there's more of course.

Cimarron29414 06-02-2010 11:05 AM
Idyllic,

No worries. Generally, Turkey is our friend. Some further insight into our strained relationship with Turkey. Turkey is a member of NATO and has the second largest military in NATO. The following is a Turkish perspective, I am just repeating it. I don't really know the Kurdish side of this issue, but I recognize that there is one: The Turks also have a "terrorism problem" in the Kurds. Much like the Palestinians, the Kurds want self-rule. Through the technique of geographic ethnic concentrations, they are attempting to carve out a piece of land in eastern Turkey, northern Iraq and Western Iran (there are some other countries up there which are included, Armenia and such) and create a nation called Kurdistan. Generally, this term is already being accepted by world media. When the concentration is high enough and the Kurds hold enough power in local governments, they will break away and form their own country, thus taking land away from those countries. The Turks know this and resist losing their territory. Saddam knew this and put unspeakable acts of violence against the Kurds (chem attacks).

If you recall, in the 2003 Iraq invasion, the US made nice with the Northern Alliance of Iraq (Kurds) in order to have those guys do a lot of the land battles in the north, taking the pressure off of our troops. We guaranteed them a degree of autonomous rule and control over the northern oil fields (thus giving them a huge bank roll for their future country.) This was an offense to Turkey, because the Kurds were doing suicide bombings into eastern Turkey much the way the Palestinians do in Tel Aviv. So, to Turkey, we were choosing their enemy over our NATO ally. This is why the Turkish parliament rejected our use of their land and air space to raid Iraq from the north. Consequently, if you recall, all of our ships in the Med and Black Seas had to drive all the way around, delaying the battle by weeks.

Now back to my opinion. This was the start of the degradation in relations between the US and Turkey. I believe it was a mistake by the Bush administration to disrespect their NATO ally and the only Muslim nation in NATO during that battle. One could never know the rationale behind this decision, obviously the Northern Alliance brought something compelling to the table. I personally believe that your treaty partners must always come before other deals.

So, what does all of this have to do with the thread?

1) Turkey is a NATO ally and we publicly humiliated them in 2003.
2) Turkey is a victim of terrorism from muslims and has empathy for us and Israel.
3) Turkey is/was a friend to Israel.
4) If we side with Israel on this, it is going to be considered further disrespect to the Turks.

I'm inclined to let Israel sort this one out on their own. I seriously doubt they called the WH before performing this operation, so they should face the consequences alone. They could defuse this situation with the least amount of mea culpa. The fact that they are not, is strategically a poor choice, in my opinion.

Idyllic 06-02-2010 11:18 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willravel (Post 2794406)
Sure.

Not as a theocracy, though. Theocratic rule has demonstrated that it's fundamentally undemocratic and seems to me to be antithetical to freedom and equality. And not without consequences for human rights violations. And not with financial aid from my country (we're in a pretty bad way with money at the moment). And within the borders they agreed to in the 1960s.

But sure, Israel can exist.
You mean like half of the Arab nations that are so entrenched in the Islamic faith, those kind of theocracies?

But I absolutely agree with you Willravel, NO nation, no peoples, should EVER be forced to suffer under autocracy and/or theocracy, and when combined they form the most anti-humane, self-indulgent form of tyranny know to mankind.

---------- Post added at 03:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:07 PM ----------

O.K. let me just ask this so I can understand, why is the hamas not looked upon as the aggressor here, as the tyrannical dictatorship over the Palestinian people, why are we not seeing the forest through the trees, imo, what am I missing that I seem to be the only one that talks about the hamas' role in all of this?

silent_jay 06-02-2010 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Idyllic (Post 2794415)
O.K. let me just ask this so I can understand, why is the hamas not looked upon as the aggressor here, as the tyrannical dictatorship over the Palestinian people, why are we not seeing the forest through the trees, imo, what am I missing that I seem to be the only one that talks about the hamas' role in all of this?
It's Hamas, not 'the Hamas', sorry but every time I read 'the Hamas' I keep hearing it in a George Bush voice, or Dana Carvey not too sure which it is.

They're not seen as the aggressor here because they had nothing to do with the ship, show us one person with connection to Hamas who was on this ship, or even terrorist connections as you seem to keep implying. I mean you've already implied there were terrorists on board, yet you can't show any proof of this, so that's my answer as to why Hamas isn't the aggressor in this situation. Also as Dunedan says, they won free and fair elections, and the Israelis didn't like it, so they took their ball and went home.


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