Raising them crazy and stupid in the Lone Star State - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

FuglyStick · 05-21-2010, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Texas Cooks the Textbooks
NEWSWEEK's guide to the 10 silliest changes that will likely be in the new Texas textbook curriculum.
By Barrett Sheridan | Newsweek Web Exclusive
May 21, 2010
Who says school is boring? The Texas State Board of Education will make a final vote today on a long list of controversial changes to its textbook standards. The 15-person board, dominated by 10 Republicans, is expected to approve many alterations that give a conservative slant to the study of U.S. history and economics. Fittingly, today's meeting opened with a prayer by board member Cynthia Dunbar, who "used the opportunity to lay out her views that the Bill of Rights and the constitutional founding of America were divinely inspired by her Lord Jesus Christ," according to the Texas Tribune.
Liberals across the country fear that, because of the state's size and buying power, Texas's new requirements will influence textbooks sold in other states. Below, 10 of the conservative, reactionary, or just plain bizarre changes the board is likely to adopt:
1. Many of the proposed changes come from Don McLeroy, a creationist, former school board member, and dentist from Bryan, Texas. One of his gems: students must learn to "evaluate efforts by global organizations to undermine U.S. sovereignty." To clarify, he's referring to the United Nations, not Goldman Sachs.
2. You've got to give McLeroy credit for long-term thinking, though. He also expects students to be able to "discuss alternatives regarding long-term entitlements such as Social Security and Medicare, given the decreasing worker-to-retiree ratio." Presumably the favored alternatives will not include national health care or raising taxes.
3. Religion, of course, makes its way into the curriculum. McLeroy wants students to "contrast the Founders' intent relative to the wording of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause and Free Exercise Clause, with the popular term, 'Separation of Church and State.'" It's a veiled way of asserting that America is, indeed, a Christian nation.
4. Currently, Texan students are expected to learn about "the impact of muckrakers and reform leaders" such as Upton Sinclair and W.E.B. DuBois. McLeroy instead wants students to "contrast the tone" of such people "versus the optimism of immigrants including Jean Pierre Godet as told in Thomas Kinkade's The Spirit of America." Kinkade is the schlocky, sentimental painter popular in malls everywhere.
5. McLeroy also wants to clear the name of Joseph McCarthy. In sections of history books that deal with McCarthyism and the House Un-American Activities Committee, McLeroy wants to emphasize first and foremost "the extent and danger of Soviet agent infiltration of the U.S. government as revealed in Alger Hiss' guilt and confirmed later by the Venona Papers."
6. Some of the changes aren't political; they're just random. Thanks to a successful lobbying effort by a Republican from suburban Houston, Texas textbooks will now include a reference to 1920s singer and composer Julius Bledsoe. "How could any of us forget his rendition of 'Old Man River' in Showboat?" Cargill said.
7. Doublespeak alert! There's no longer such a thing as U.S. "imperialism"—it's "U.S. expansionism." It's only imperialism when the Europeans do it, naturally. And when the Soviets did it, it was "aggression."
8. A new history requirement for high schoolers: understanding "the conservative resurgence of the 1980s and 1990s," including the role of the Heritage Foundation, the Moral Majority, and the NRA. Sounds like a wild afternoon!
9. A meta-lesson: never miss an opportunity to stick it to a Democratic president. A section on "political scandals" including Teapot Dome and Watergate, now includes "Bill Clinton's impeachment."
10. A new addition to world history: "Explain how Arab rejection of the State of Israel has led to ongoing conflict." Now that's not at all a loaded statement, is it?

Texas Cooks the Textbooks - Newsweek.com

Yee-haw! We'll just write history however we fucking want! We're Texas, dammit!

That promise to secede that pops up anytime you don't get your way? DO IT, GOD DAMMIT. And take Arizona with you.

Seaver · 05-21-2010, 03:07 PM

Fugly, while I applaud your activity, please understand starting threads like this is no way to start or continue good debates.

I'm a Texan and I oppose these measures, but to sum up the debate in your "DO IT, GOD DAMMIT. And take Arizona with you" does not belong. I'm pointing this out to help you, as it's identical to someone saying "speak English or get out of MY country!".

Idyllic · 05-21-2010, 03:27 PM

Yea, here we go again, haven't we done the schoolbook thread already...... I'm always willing to go here again though, but it all boils down to, imo, read the damn books yourself before you let some far winger convince you their doing your kids a disservice. As this has already been highly publicized I would think most educators have already read the changes and accepted them, or maybe every single teacher and parent living TX is just not as American as the rest of us. Gimme a break.

FuglyStick · 05-21-2010, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Fugly, while I applaud your activity, please understand starting threads like this is no way to start or continue good debates.

I'm a Texan and I oppose these measures, but to sum up the debate in your "DO IT, GOD DAMMIT. And take Arizona with you" does not belong. I'm pointing this out to help you, as it's identical to someone saying "speak English or get out of MY country!".

Seaver, I respect your opinion more than many of the liberals on this board, because you are always willing to back up your position rather than regurgitate talking points fed to you by some partisan hack. But I fail to see the correlation between telling Americans to get out of the country if they don't like the politics and taking up Gov. Perry's threat that Texas would leave on it's own accord. Of course not everyone in Texas voted the douchebag into office, but he is the executive head of the state, and as such "speaks" for Texas. Hey, I'm from Illinois, and had a scumbag governor run out of office recently; for better or worse, the governor of a state is representative of the politics of that state.

Pearl Trade · 05-21-2010, 05:01 PM

I'm a Texan too, and everyone knows we'll never secede. I doubt you even believe we will at some point, you're just saying it because you can.

I oppose the textbook changes they want to make, but what they're trying to add in/subtract is just as valid as what's already in it. No matter how crazy or stupid it is.

Seaver · 05-21-2010, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Seaver, I respect your opinion more than many of the liberals on this board, because you are always willing to back up your position rather than regurgitate talking points fed to you by some partisan hack. But I fail to see the correlation between telling Americans to get out of the country if they don't like the politics and taking up Gov. Perry's threat that Texas would leave on it's own accord. Of course not everyone in Texas voted the douchebag into office, but he is the executive head of the state, and as such "speaks" for Texas. Hey, I'm from Illinois, and had a scumbag governor run out of office recently; for better or worse, the governor of a state is representative of the politics of that state.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz0ocJqzQp4

The talk of secession in Texas is complex. It has to do with the state pride which, having lived in many other states including Illinois, simply doesn't exist elsewhere. It originates being that Texas was the only independent country to willingly join the US (California was NOT a country, despite what they say) won in a very bloody war. People talk about their state pride in the same way people from Boston/Milwaukee claim no other city can drink like them. It's just boastful way of showing pride. In addition, Governor Perry fought off 3 other Republican nominees to keep his Governor position (none of which were tea baggers). He is not well liked in this state for many reasons, including how he deals with the House/Senate of the state. When he was saying that, it was simply to get a small jump in the Gubernatorial run... no sane person in Texas actually wants it.

The way our state is also put together by the constitution re-written post-Civil War is also unlike any other state. The Senate/House are only allowed to meet for 3 months every 2 years, and the entire budget must be settled and without any debts outside of war waged by the State.

The people in the Board of Education are generally appointed, not elected. The appointments are usually simply thank-you's for campaign assistance. This causes a lot of weird situations where they set down rules that all schools must follow, but on a local level they work completely around or ignore. For example: they ruled that evolution must be treated as a theory, and other competing theories must be taught as well. In actuality, they spend 2min on creationism, 2min on bump-on-log theory (13th century theory on how fungus grows), and then 2 months on evolution.

Have faith, no History teacher will ever ignore Thomas Jefferson. In addition, he's on the TASK Test (state wide test required to graduate) as well as Nationalized tests so he must be taught.

dippin · 05-21-2010, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Idyllic

Yea, here we go again, haven't we done the schoolbook thread already...... I'm always willing to go here again though, but it all boils down to, imo, read the damn books yourself before you let some far winger convince you their doing your kids a disservice. As this has already been highly publicized I would think most educators have already read the changes and accepted them, or maybe every single teacher and parent living TX is just not as American as the rest of us. Gimme a break.

It is simply false that "most educators" have accepted these changes.

Idyllic · 05-21-2010, 09:00 PM

Hi dippin, it's true, I have no proof, I have not spoken to any teachers, nor have I heard any teachers speak out of their “like” of these new text books. However, with the knowledge that there were more than 310,000 teachers in the state of Texas in 2005-6, and the fact that we have yet to hear from more that a small handful who adamantly disapprove of the text book changes, I am led to believe that either they just don’t give a damn about their country, their students and their profession or they are just not that worried over the textbook changes, I’m more inclined to believe the later.

I did try to find some positives about these changes and all I could find is negative attacks, derogatory remarks and party line innuendo, actually blatant “it’s all the Christian conservatives changing history” fault, a lot of left indignant posturing, and quite a bit of “whoa is me, the end of our children’s intelligence is upon us”, spewed mostly by the far left about the same 12 or 13 items they started the original “Oh my gosh, Texas is going to hell in a hand basket, and taking our kids with them, sky is falling”, blame the Christians, blame the conservatives, rhetoric from the far left wing and clearly liberal media outlets.

I am hard pressed to believe that 300,000 + teachers and the parents are just so stupid or just don’t care so much, that they are willing to allow the children of Texas to be considered “raised crazy and stupid”. It would appear that this really is not as big an issue as the extreme leftists would have us believe, seems like a lot of sensationalism and posturing, but that’s to be expected when a vote falls along “party lines” in any debate.

p.s. I guess in the end, I have a great deal of pride in my countrymens ability to stand up for themselves, and their children and in the fact that had this been the issue the far left liberals are making it out to be, we would know exactly what all the changes were, and we would all be involved, as opposed to the pretty small handful that are crying foul so vocally.

If you hear any different, say more than 3% or so of teachers and parents coming out in opposition and protest, please let me know, though I read my sons text books with them, It is good to be prepared and anticipate the areas were I need to insure to include perspective of my own, just as your parents did for you and their parent for them. (That 3% needs to be people who have actually read the textbooks, not just people who have merely read all this rhetoric and then join in to support the far left wing because the media makes this issue seems like TX is teaching some form of christian/conservative indoctrination in their public schools). Talk about sensationalism.

dippin · 05-21-2010, 09:19 PM

Just because you didn't hear from the teachers doesn't mean that they support these changes.

The National Council for History Education, it's Texas branch, teacher's unions and so on have all come out against the changes.

And in the end, is your argument that anything that wins a vote is necessarily good? So popular appeal, especially when it comes to education, determines what is right?

Skitto · 05-22-2010, 01:24 AM

Sooo... what I'm hearing is that Texas has an Education Administration that is far from perfect, and are possibly made up of people who got thank you letters for a $50 contribution to a campaign one time? Dude, if I could get a job like that for $50 or more then I'd be scraping cash together like crazy trying to get into the Superintendent slot.

Strange Famous · 05-22-2010, 04:47 AM

People arent idiots... and in a nation such as America so saturated with information sources and free communication, I think it is unlikely that will create a populous in any image they want to by manipulating the education agenda. Personally I think more people would rebel against it than follow it... in school they taught us about lots of biased things about English history (for example portraying the perverted and heretic Harald the Oath Breaker as the "rightful" king of England in place of our true king, Duke William of Normandy!) - but I am able to make up my own mind.

Seaver · 05-22-2010, 05:07 AM

Quote:

Sooo... what I'm hearing is that Texas has an Education Administration that is far from perfect, and are possibly made up of people who got thank you letters for a $50 contribution to a campaign one time? Dude, if I could get a job like that for $50 or more then I'd be scraping cash together like crazy trying to get into the Superintendent slot.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz0ofASg24m

It's no different than how the President picks ambassadors. You think the ambassador to Bermuda got that job by being good at international relations? No... they got the job by managing grass roots campaigns and getting on the bandwagon long before everyone else.

Quote:

in school they taught us about lots of biased things about English history (for example portraying the perverted and heretic Harald the Oath Breaker as the "rightful" king of England in place of our true king, Duke William of Normandy!) - but I am able to make up my own mind.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz0ofB1pO00

Um... not to go off on a tangent but William the Bastard had no claim whatsoever to the throne when he invaded. Even if the throne was promised to him by the exiled king, the kingship was voted on by the Barons so the prior king had no authority to do so regardless. Historically, he simply got lucky on a battle he in all reality should have lost.

Strange Famous · 05-22-2010, 06:59 AM

Yes, it is off topic - but in fact Duke William's right to the crown of England was confirmed by the Pope, and Harald the Perfidious himself promised to support William's bid for the crown in 1064, but then broke his word.

The_Dunedan · 05-22-2010, 07:49 AM

Harald only broke his word to William The Bastard when the Saxon, Danish, and Anglish nobility voted him in as King instead. Being a Dano-Saxon, the vote of the Allthing and the opinions of the Fyrdmen mattered much more to him (and everyone else on the island at the time) than did the plainly bought-and-paid-for endorsement of the Pope -or- the word of William Of Normandy who, besides having a reputation for unpredictability, heresy, and molesting every choirboy who didn't run faster than he did (good ol' Catharism) was -also- widely viewed as a likely impediment to the English continental trade in wool and tin.

William Of Normandy was an illegitimate invader and usurper with excellent luck in picking archers. Nothing more. You might as well try to claim that Henry II was the rightful Ard Ri (High King) of Ireland because his invasion was sanctioned by Pope Adrian!

Strange Famous · 05-22-2010, 08:51 AM

Well, I will argue about it in another thread if you like, but I dont want to take this too far off track.

But it does show that people can form their own opinions, no matter what they are educated. The Texan state can teach children that the UN wants to usurp US soveriegnty, but people who are interested can decide for themselves. There are nations like Saudi or Iran where information is restricted and education can be an indoctrination... in America no one has an excuse for accepted what they are spoon fed in school (I remember, for example, at school we regularly forced to sing along to the capitalist propoganda hymn "all things bright and beautiful - other than the one Muslim girl who had to stand outside staring at the wall while we all sang hymns, I expect most people envied her)

Rekna · 05-22-2010, 03:18 PM

I wonder if the federal government could put forth text book guidelines and then tell the states if they want federal money for public schools they have to follow these guidelines....

Pearl Trade · 05-22-2010, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I wonder if the federal government could put forth text book guidelines and then tell the states if they want federal money for public schools they have to follow these guidelines....

So it'd be like the drinking age law? Where any state the lowers the drinking age will lose 10% of federal money for their highways?

Quote:

Congress voted in 1984 to penalize states that set the drinking age below 21 with forfeiture of 10% of their federal highway funds.

Rekna · 05-23-2010, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pearl Trade

So it'd be like the drinking age law? Where any state the lowers the drinking age will lose 10% of federal money for their highways?

Exactly, the problem is the standards would need to be set in a non-partisan way.

genuinegirly · 05-23-2010, 04:21 PM

Threadjack:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

... It has to do with the state pride which... simply doesn't exist elsewhere.

I contest that the same state pride exists in California. Which was coincidentally its own country before a state. California doesn't think about succeeding because many Californians (including me) believe strongly that the United States wouldn't be a prosperous country without it.

Back to the topic of the thread:
I'm sick of Texas getting so much bad press.

Seaver · 05-23-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

I contest that the same state pride exists in California. Which was coincidentally its own country before a state. California doesn't think about succeeding because many Californians (including me) believe strongly that the United States wouldn't be a prosperous country without it.

Read more: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...#ixzz0oo4rrZj5

Having lived in California (El Centro Valley), I would have to disagree. How many Californians do you know that have tattoos of the state, state flag, or state symbols? I can't even count my friends with both hands and feet. You see "Texas Born and Bred" or "Wasn't born here, but got here as soon as I could", and similar sayings as bumper stickers/shirts/etc. Finally, ask Californians if they consider themselves Californians or Americans first... here you would find probably half see themselves as Texas first.

Don't get me wrong, California is a great place and they do have state pride. It's the most wealthy state and include some of the best landmass in the continent. There's plenty to feel pride about, and many do. However trust me when I say I haven't seen state pride on the same level anywhere else in the US.

Finally... California was not a country before it was a state. Three dozen people making a flag and declaring themselves a country does not a country make. They had no real standing army, no tax system, no governmental departments, etc. It was simply a group of settlers who tried to push forward the dream of Manifest Destiny. If you want evidence, simply look at the rules in state vs. US flag. Texas is the only flag allowed to fly on the same height as the US flag as it was the only independent country to willingly join. Incidentally, Texas is also the only state which can legally secede.. written in treaty while joining the Union.

Pearl Trade · 05-23-2010, 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seaver

Having lived in California (El Centro Valley), I would have to disagree. How many Californians do you know that have tattoos of the state, state flag, or state symbols? I can't even count my friends with both hands and feet. You see "Texas Born and Bred" or "Wasn't born here, but got here as soon as I could", and similar sayings as bumper stickers/shirts/etc. Finally, ask Californians if they consider themselves Californians or Americans first... here you would find probably half see themselves as Texas first.

Don't get me wrong, California is a great place and they do have state pride. It's the most wealthy state and include some of the best landmass in the continent. There's plenty to feel pride about, and many do. However trust me when I say I haven't seen state pride on the same level anywhere else in the US.

Finally... California was not a country before it was a state. Three dozen people making a flag and declaring themselves a country does not a country make. They had no real standing army, no tax system, no governmental departments, etc. It was simply a group of settlers who tried to push forward the dream of Manifest Destiny. If you want evidence, simply look at the rules in state vs. US flag. Texas is the only flag allowed to fly on the same height as the US flag as it was the only independent country to willingly join. Incidentally, Texas is also the only state which can legally secede.. written in treaty while joining the Union.

Seaver speaks the truth.

genuinegirly · 05-23-2010, 07:19 PM

I feel like I have to contribute to this thread if I'm going to detract from it so much...

But I really can't relate to the real point of this thread.

Wow. Sorry, Seaver and Pearl Trade, but I'm going to have to call both of you a bit biased. Does the California Lone Star Flag mean nothing to you? Surely you can relate, seeing as how it's older, but similar in design to your Burnet Flag. I won't even get into all of the Nor-Cal tattoos, California grizzly belt buckles and "Hella" paraphernalia I've encountered. As for this drivel about Manifest Destiny, the (largely European) settlers didn't want Russia to lay claim. You can't blame them, can you?

Derwood · 05-24-2010, 03:31 AM

Texas sounds even worse after you guys have described it

Seaver · 05-24-2010, 07:59 AM

I honestly didn't mean to turn this into a pissing contest. I grew up as a Navy brat and have lived all over the US and Canada. It wasn't intended as a contest about who has more state pride, not in the least. It was my attempt to get people to understand the mindset when Governor Perry talked about secession, and why talk like that helped him keep his seat even though no sane Texan actually wants it to happen.

As I said, I loved California too. When I first moved to Texas from Cali I hated it because of the awesome state I lived in before. I lived in Chicago, Ottawa, etc and loved them all. So please don't get offended when I simply state in my experience the pride to call oneself a Texan seems to mean more here than when others attach themselves to their state. For example, people in Chicago have as much City pride as I've seen anywhere else (probably matched only by NYC), though the pride in being an Illini (or NY Stater) seemed non existent.

Derwood · 05-24-2010, 10:16 AM

and all I'm saying is that someone who considers themselves a Texan first an American a distant second is not someone I can relate to (or am really interested in involving myself with).

and I'm about the least jingoistic, rah-rah American guy you'll find around here.

SecretMethod70 · 05-24-2010, 11:08 AM

I'm with Derwood.

SecretMethod70 · 05-25-2010, 12:44 AM

Predictably, Stephen Colbert had a decent segment on the subject...

I's on Edjukashun - Texas School Board | March 16, 2010

raging moderate · 06-03-2010, 11:07 AM

Actually as someone who as also moved around a lot, i will whole-heartedly back up Seaver's premise that Texas has by-far more state pride than anywhere else I've ever been. People in many states are proud of where their from, etc. but Texans take it to a whole new level. If you haven't spent significant time living in Texas, it's somewhat hard to grasp. It's not about putting Texas over America or anything like that (although they are the only state that legally can fly their flag that way), it's just a fierce pride of a land and a way of life.

As far as the textbook debate goes....

History has always been written by the victors and those with influence/money. While it is terrifying to me to think that creationism legally has to be taught and given equal time to actual science, it isn't that far behind to say that Columbus "discovered" America or that the American government had "no involvement" with 9/11.

05-21-2010, 03:07 PM	#2 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	Fugly, while I applaud your activity, please understand starting threads like this is no way to start or continue good debates. I'm a Texan and I oppose these measures, but to sum up the debate in your "DO IT, GOD DAMMIT. And take Arizona with you" does not belong. I'm pointing this out to help you, as it's identical to someone saying "speak English or get out of MY country!". __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

05-21-2010, 03:27 PM	#3 (permalink)
Idyllic Psycho Location: My House	Yea, here we go again, haven't we done the schoolbook thread already...... I'm always willing to go here again though, but it all boils down to, imo, read the damn books yourself before you let some far winger convince you their doing your kids a disservice. As this has already been highly publicized I would think most educators have already read the changes and accepted them, or maybe every single teacher and parent living TX is just not as American as the rest of us. Gimme a break. __________________ you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

05-21-2010, 05:01 PM	#5 (permalink)
Pearl Trade Addict Location: Houston, Texas	I'm a Texan too, and everyone knows we'll never secede. I doubt you even believe we will at some point, you're just saying it because you can. I oppose the textbook changes they want to make, but what they're trying to add in/subtract is just as valid as what's already in it. No matter how crazy or stupid it is. __________________ Our revenge will be the laughter of our children. Give me convenience or give me death!

05-21-2010, 09:00 PM	#8 (permalink)
Idyllic Psycho Location: My House	Hi dippin, it's true, I have no proof, I have not spoken to any teachers, nor have I heard any teachers speak out of their “like” of these new text books. However, with the knowledge that there were more than 310,000 teachers in the state of Texas in 2005-6, and the fact that we have yet to hear from more that a small handful who adamantly disapprove of the text book changes, I am led to believe that either they just don’t give a damn about their country, their students and their profession or they are just not that worried over the textbook changes, I’m more inclined to believe the later. I did try to find some positives about these changes and all I could find is negative attacks, derogatory remarks and party line innuendo, actually blatant “it’s all the Christian conservatives changing history” fault, a lot of left indignant posturing, and quite a bit of “whoa is me, the end of our children’s intelligence is upon us”, spewed mostly by the far left about the same 12 or 13 items they started the original “Oh my gosh, Texas is going to hell in a hand basket, and taking our kids with them, sky is falling”, blame the Christians, blame the conservatives, rhetoric from the far left wing and clearly liberal media outlets. I am hard pressed to believe that 300,000 + teachers and the parents are just so stupid or just don’t care so much, that they are willing to allow the children of Texas to be considered “raised crazy and stupid”. It would appear that this really is not as big an issue as the extreme leftists would have us believe, seems like a lot of sensationalism and posturing, but that’s to be expected when a vote falls along “party lines” in any debate. p.s. I guess in the end, I have a great deal of pride in my countrymens ability to stand up for themselves, and their children and in the fact that had this been the issue the far left liberals are making it out to be, we would know exactly what all the changes were, and we would all be involved, as opposed to the pretty small handful that are crying foul so vocally. If you hear any different, say more than 3% or so of teachers and parents coming out in opposition and protest, please let me know, though I read my sons text books with them, It is good to be prepared and anticipate the areas were I need to insure to include perspective of my own, just as your parents did for you and their parent for them. (That 3% needs to be people who have actually read the textbooks, not just people who have merely read all this rhetoric and then join in to support the far left wing because the media makes this issue seems like TX is teaching some form of christian/conservative indoctrination in their public schools). Talk about sensationalism. __________________ you can tell them all you want but it won't matter until they think it does p.s. I contradict my contradictions, with or without intention, sometimes.

05-22-2010, 01:24 AM	#10 (permalink)
Skitto Crazy Location: Westernmost Continental U.S.	Sooo... what I'm hearing is that Texas has an Education Administration that is far from perfect, and are possibly made up of people who got thank you letters for a $50 contribution to a campaign one time? Dude, if I could get a job like that for $50 or more then I'd be scraping cash together like crazy trying to get into the Superintendent slot. __________________ Yeah, well, you're just that awesome, I guess. It's not like I guessed so anyways.

05-21-2010, 09:19 PM	#9 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	Just because you didn't hear from the teachers doesn't mean that they support these changes. The National Council for History Education, it's Texas branch, teacher's unions and so on have all come out against the changes. And in the end, is your argument that anything that wins a vote is necessarily good? So popular appeal, especially when it comes to education, determines what is right?

05-22-2010, 04:47 AM	#11 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	People arent idiots... and in a nation such as America so saturated with information sources and free communication, I think it is unlikely that will create a populous in any image they want to by manipulating the education agenda. Personally I think more people would rebel against it than follow it... in school they taught us about lots of biased things about English history (for example portraying the perverted and heretic Harald the Oath Breaker as the "rightful" king of England in place of our true king, Duke William of Normandy!) - but I am able to make up my own mind. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-22-2010, 06:59 AM	#13 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Yes, it is off topic - but in fact Duke William's right to the crown of England was confirmed by the Pope, and Harald the Perfidious himself promised to support William's bid for the crown in 1064, but then broke his word. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-22-2010, 07:49 AM	#14 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	Harald only broke his word to William The Bastard when the Saxon, Danish, and Anglish nobility voted him in as King instead. Being a Dano-Saxon, the vote of the Allthing and the opinions of the Fyrdmen mattered much more to him (and everyone else on the island at the time) than did the plainly bought-and-paid-for endorsement of the Pope -or- the word of William Of Normandy who, besides having a reputation for unpredictability, heresy, and molesting every choirboy who didn't run faster than he did (good ol' Catharism) was -also- widely viewed as a likely impediment to the English continental trade in wool and tin. William Of Normandy was an illegitimate invader and usurper with excellent luck in picking archers. Nothing more. You might as well try to claim that Henry II was the rightful Ard Ri (High King) of Ireland because his invasion was sanctioned by Pope Adrian!

05-22-2010, 08:51 AM	#15 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Well, I will argue about it in another thread if you like, but I dont want to take this too far off track. But it does show that people can form their own opinions, no matter what they are educated. The Texan state can teach children that the UN wants to usurp US soveriegnty, but people who are interested can decide for themselves. There are nations like Saudi or Iran where information is restricted and education can be an indoctrination... in America no one has an excuse for accepted what they are spoon fed in school (I remember, for example, at school we regularly forced to sing along to the capitalist propoganda hymn "all things bright and beautiful - other than the one Muslim girl who had to stand outside staring at the wall while we all sang hymns, I expect most people envied her) __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-22-2010, 03:18 PM	#16 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I wonder if the federal government could put forth text book guidelines and then tell the states if they want federal money for public schools they have to follow these guidelines....

05-23-2010, 07:19 PM	#22 (permalink)
genuinegirly Eat your vegetables Super Moderator Location: Arabidopsis-ville	I feel like I have to contribute to this thread if I'm going to detract from it so much... But I really can't relate to the real point of this thread. Wow. Sorry, Seaver and Pearl Trade, but I'm going to have to call both of you a bit biased. Does the California Lone Star Flag mean nothing to you? Surely you can relate, seeing as how it's older, but similar in design to your Burnet Flag. I won't even get into all of the Nor-Cal tattoos, California grizzly belt buckles and "Hella" paraphernalia I've encountered. As for this drivel about Manifest Destiny, the (largely European) settlers didn't want Russia to lay claim. You can't blame them, can you? __________________ "Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq "violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy Last edited by genuinegirly; 05-23-2010 at 07:26 PM..

05-24-2010, 03:31 AM	#23 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Texas sounds even worse after you guys have described it __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

05-24-2010, 07:59 AM	#24 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	I honestly didn't mean to turn this into a pissing contest. I grew up as a Navy brat and have lived all over the US and Canada. It wasn't intended as a contest about who has more state pride, not in the least. It was my attempt to get people to understand the mindset when Governor Perry talked about secession, and why talk like that helped him keep his seat even though no sane Texan actually wants it to happen. As I said, I loved California too. When I first moved to Texas from Cali I hated it because of the awesome state I lived in before. I lived in Chicago, Ottawa, etc and loved them all. So please don't get offended when I simply state in my experience the pride to call oneself a Texan seems to mean more here than when others attach themselves to their state. For example, people in Chicago have as much City pride as I've seen anywhere else (probably matched only by NYC), though the pride in being an Illini (or NY Stater) seemed non existent. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

05-24-2010, 10:16 AM	#25 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	and all I'm saying is that someone who considers themselves a Texan first an American a distant second is not someone I can relate to (or am really interested in involving myself with). and I'm about the least jingoistic, rah-rah American guy you'll find around here. __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

05-24-2010, 11:08 AM	#26 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	I'm with Derwood. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

05-25-2010, 12:44 AM	#27 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Predictably, Stephen Colbert had a decent segment on the subject... I's on Edjukashun - Texas School Board \| March 16, 2010 __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

06-03-2010, 11:07 AM	#28 (permalink)
raging moderate Insane Location: Whatever house my keys can get me into	Actually as someone who as also moved around a lot, i will whole-heartedly back up Seaver's premise that Texas has by-far more state pride than anywhere else I've ever been. People in many states are proud of where their from, etc. but Texans take it to a whole new level. If you haven't spent significant time living in Texas, it's somewhat hard to grasp. It's not about putting Texas over America or anything like that (although they are the only state that legally can fly their flag that way), it's just a fierce pride of a land and a way of life. As far as the textbook debate goes.... History has always been written by the victors and those with influence/money. While it is terrifying to me to think that creationism legally has to be taught and given equal time to actual science, it isn't that far behind to say that Columbus "discovered" America or that the American government had "no involvement" with 9/11. __________________ These are the good old days... formerly Murp0434