PUB DISCUSSION Rancher sued, another killed. Can't we defend ourselves? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Anonymous Member · 03-31-2010, 03:50 PM

Just thought it would be interesting to juxtaposition all three of these articles. (I'll cut and paste them at the end of the post.) A few years back, a rancher was sued by people, shall we say, "not of this country" because he detained them. This article tells the story.

This past weekend, this occurred. Also about the murder and adding to it is this article from the area.

In my opinion, it appears that the real victims are the United States citizens that live along the border. Yes, some real tragedy occurs with the illegal aliens, but isn't it also tragic that people in this country have to be concerned whether or not they could lose their homes or even lives, by way of defending their property and persons, to someone who shouldn't even be here in the first place?

And what has to happen before something is finally done about this issue? Like a terrorist sneaking in a dirty bomb through the Mexican border perhaps? I mean, if large numbers of old men, women and children and insane quantities of drugs can sneak in, it wouldn't be too far a stretch for someone really motivated to do the same.

Just curious to everyone's take on this.....Yes, I posted anonymously, and no, I'm not going to dive into any flame wars. Say what you want, I'm only reading this thread (or not) once it's posted.

Rancher Killed....

Quote:

Cochise County Rancher Murdered
Posted by Jimmy Boegle on Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:11 PM

Leo W. Banks, who has been covering border issues for years, brings us news that Rob Krentz was killed yesterday in the Chiricahua Corridor.

Leo—who has written about the Krentz family before (see here)—says:

Cochise County rancher Rob Krentz was shot and killed on his ranch some time Saturday, presumably by a drug smuggler. (Poster's note...They tracked the suspect 20 miles to the Mexican border. Draw your own conclusions as to that persons citizenship. See the next article...)

The death, which being investigated as a homicide, occurred in the San Bernardino Valley, part of the Malpais region. The event has rocked the towns of Douglas and Portal, and the ranches in between, both of which have been under siege by cross-border smugglers for years.

As the Weekly has reported, the situation in the so-called Chiricahua Corridor has deteriorated lately, leaving residents fearful that an episode of this kind was inevitable. The grief is great for the Krentz family and their many friends throughout Southeast Arizona; Krentzes have been ranching in Cochise County for more than a century.

The Weekly has received word that a representative for Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords has placed calls to Cochise County, trying to set up a community meeting, either Monday or Tuesday at 11 a.m., possibly at the Apache School. The Giffords' rep making the arrangements said it is possible she will ask the president to place military units in the besieged area

A source tells the Weekly the practical impact of Giffords' actions might be small, but at least she is paying attention. The source said, "Kolbe laughed at us when we complained, and McCain worries about getting his patent leather shoes dirty when he's down here."

Ranchers worried...

Quote:

Slaying stokes border worries
Crime: Stats may show rise in illegals
By Derek Jordan
Herald/Review

SIERRA VISTA — The east edge of Cochise County, including the area where a local rancher was killed, has seen in increase in illegal immigrant activity in the past year, Cochise County Sheriff’s Office officials say.

In an area stretching from Douglas in the south to San Simon in the north, authorities say the type and volume of burglaries indicates an increase in illegal immigrant traffic. Burglary cases include the Feb. 8 report of the theft of $100 in food from a home on Skeleton Canyon Road. And the Feb. 20 report of clothing stolen from a home on Owl Butte Trail. Cases in which people peer inside windows and then run when they’re seen or enter a home and track in mud but take nothing.

Similarities in the cases point toward illegal immigrants being responsible, said Carol Capas, spokeswoman for the sheriff’s office.

“Items that are stolen are specifically food and clothing,” she said. “For the most part, the residents have not been home for some time, or it’s a second home that they have in the area.”

There is a “direct relationship” between these cases and the increasing amount of illegal immigrants coming into the country by way of that area, Capas said.

Robert Krentz was found shot dead Saturday on his 35,000-acre ranch between Douglas and Apache. Krentz, 58, was believed to have been killed by an illegal immigrant.

According to the sheriff’s office, Krentz’s brother, Phil Krentz, reported receiving a radio phone transmission from his brother between 10 a.m. and 10:30 a.m. Saturday morning, but all Phil Krentz could understand were the words “illegal alien” and “hurt.”

Asked if during the course of the investigation the possible meaning of these words had become clear, Capas said, “We are not going to speculate on that.” She added “There is no way for us to know whether or not that means he caught up to someone who was injured or that he caught up to someone and that now (Robert Krentz) was injured.”

Phil Krentz was to meet with his brother at another area of the ranch at noon later that day. When the time came and went and Robert Krentz was nowhere to be found, family and friends organized a search for him but were unsuccessful and contacted the sheriff’s office at 6:20 p.m. The sheriff’s was joined by ground and air support from the U.S. Border Patrol and the Department of Public Safety.

The body was found, along with his dog, in his all-terrain vehicle shortly before midnight.

Investigators followed the tracks of the vehicle approximately 1,000 feet back to where they determined Krentz came upon an individual. Krentz was apparently shot while in the vehicle.

Foot tracks at the scene were followed by a number of tracking teams until the Mexico border, about 20 miles south. No one had been apprehended for the death of Krentz as of Tuesday.

As the investigation continues, authorities are releasing few details, including any possible connection to an incident involving a gun that occurred within 24 hours of Krentz’s death. Sheriff Larry Dever mentioned the incident during a press conference on Monday. “They’re not willing to discuss that any further,” Capas said.

Separately, Border Patrol has said that eight drug smugglers were apprehended Friday night as they were crossing the Krentz ranch. The smugglers and 290 pounds of marijuana were taken into custody by border agents.

Several officials have called for an increased federal presence at the border.

On Monday, Gov. Jan Brewer renewed her call for National Guard soldiers to be deployed to the border. Also Monday, Sen. John McCain sent a letter to Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano calling for Guard troops on the border.

On Tuesday, U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords made a similar request when she sent a letter to President Barack Obama and Napolitano. “I urge you to take bold and immediate action to protect our citizens by deploying the National Guard to our southern border,” she wrote.

Giffords also asked that more Border Patrol agents, particularly horseback units, be sent to the border and that a forward operating base, a rural outpost for Border Patrol agents, be established between Douglas and the New Mexico border.

Giffords to visit

U.S. Rep. Gabriel Giffords has called a meeting with ranchers today in Apache to discuss safety issues regarding illegal immigrant and drug smuggling traffic across their lands. The meeting will begin at 6 p.m. at Apache Elementary School on Skeleton Canyon Road northeast of Douglas, Giffords’ office said.

Reward offered

The Arizona Cattle Growers’ Association is offering a $15,000 reward for information leading to the arrest of rancher Robert Krentz’s killer and has set up a memorial fund at Wells Fargo Bank to help Krentz’s family.

And finally, Rancher Sued.... (A few years old.)

Quote:

16 illegals sue Arizona rancher
Claim violation of rights as they crossed his land

By Jerry Seper

An Arizona man who has waged a 10-year campaign to stop a flood of illegal immigrants from crossing his property is being sued by 16 Mexican nationals who accuse him of conspiring to violate their civil rights when he stopped them at gunpoint on his ranch on the U.S.-Mexico border.

Roger Barnett, 64, began rounding up illegal immigrants in 1998 and turning them over to the U.S. Border Patrol, he said, after they destroyed his property, killed his calves and broke into his home.

His Cross Rail Ranch near Douglas, Ariz., is known by federal and county law enforcement authorities as "the avenue of choice" for immigrants seeking to enter the United States illegally.

Trial continues Monday in the federal lawsuit, which seeks $32 million in actual and punitive damages for civil rights violations, the infliction of emotional distress and other crimes. Also named are Mr. Barnett's wife, Barbara, his brother, Donald, and Larry Dever, sheriff in Cochise County, Ariz., where the Barnetts live. The civil trial is expected to continue until Friday.

The lawsuit is based on a March 7, 2004, incident in a dry wash on the 22,000-acre ranch, when he approached a group of illegal immigrants while carrying a gun and accompanied by a large dog.

Attorneys for the immigrants - five women and 11 men who were trying to cross illegally into the United States - have accused Mr. Barnett of holding the group captive at gunpoint, threatening to turn his dog loose on them and saying he would shoot anyone who tried to escape.

The immigrants are represented at trial by the Mexican American Legal Defense and Educational Fund (MALDEF), which also charged that Sheriff Dever did nothing to prevent Mr. Barnett from holding their clients at "gunpoint, yelling obscenities at them and kicking one of the women."

In the lawsuit, MALDEF said Mr. Barnett approached the group as the immigrants moved through his property, and that he was carrying a pistol and threatening them in English and Spanish. At one point, it said, Mr. Barnett's dog barked at several of the women and he yelled at them in Spanish, "My dog is hungry and he's hungry for buttocks."

The lawsuit said he then called his wife and two Border Patrol agents arrived at the site. It also said Mr. Barnett acknowledged that he had turned over 12,000 illegal immigrants to the Border Patrol since 1998.

In March, U.S. District Judge John Roll rejected a motion by Mr. Barnett to have the charges dropped, ruling there was sufficient evidence to allow the matter to be presented to a jury. Mr. Barnett's attorney, David Hardy, had argued that illegal immigrants did not have the same rights as U.S. citizens.

Mr. Barnett told The Washington Times in a 2002 interview that he began rounding up illegal immigrants after they started to vandalize his property, northeast of Douglas along Arizona Highway 80. He said the immigrants tore up water pumps, killed calves, destroyed fences and gates, stole trucks and broke into his home.

Some of his cattle died from ingesting the plastic bottles left behind by the immigrants, he said, adding that he installed a faucet on an 8,000-gallon water tank so the immigrants would stop damaging the tank to get water.

Mr. Barnett said some of the ranch´s established immigrant trails were littered with trash 10 inches deep, including human waste, used toilet paper, soiled diapers, cigarette packs, clothes, backpacks, empty 1-gallon water bottles, chewing-gum wrappers and aluminum foil - which supposedly is used to pack the drugs the immigrant smugglers give their "clients" to keep them running.

He said he carried a pistol during his searches for the immigrants and had a rifle in his truck "for protection" against immigrant and drug smugglers, who often are armed.

A former Cochise County sheriff´s deputy who later was successful in the towing and propane business, Mr. Barnett spent $30,000 on electronic sensors, which he has hidden along established trails on his ranch. He searches the ranch for illegal immigrants in a pickup truck, dressed in a green shirt and camouflage hat, with his handgun and rifle, high-powered binoculars and a walkie-talkie.

His sprawling ranch became an illegal-immigration highway when the Border Patrol diverted its attention to several border towns in an effort to take control of the established ports of entry. That effort moved the illegal immigrants to the remote areas of the border, including the Cross Rail Ranch.

"This is my land. I´m the victim here," Mr. Barnett said. "When someone´s home and loved ones are in jeopardy and the government seemingly can´t do anything about it, I feel justified in taking matters into my own hands. And I always watch my back."

ASU2003 · 03-31-2010, 04:10 PM

We need to do something to stop the undocumented immigration. It might be to heavily fine anyone who hires them, it might be to put our national guard along the border, it might be to help Mexico with some of their problems to keep the people from coming here illegally. We've been talking about this for decades, we should have done something by now.

I support the ranchers rights to perform citizens arrests on trespassers or defend themselves from violent attacks.

dippin · 03-31-2010, 04:14 PM

I'm not sure about the relationship between the first and second issues. Yes, something needs to be done about illegal immigration. Part of it is making immigration easier, as there is a clear labor shortage in certain sectors. Yes, something needs to be done about the drug cartels, and I generally think that legalization of drugs would go a long way towards that.

But the idea that any of those things make Roger Barnett's actions justified is bullshit. He didn't stop drug lords or anything like that. And he didn't simply stop them and waited for the border patrol.

This guy is a douchebag who once held and threatened US-born Mexican-Americans and their three children. In this particular case, people like to say that he was sued simply because he stopped the immigrants. That is false. Most of the charges and lawsuits were dropped or dismissed. All of the charges related to the violation of civil rights were dismissed. He was found guilty of assault. And you know why? Because he kicked a woman while she was on the ground. Catching someone entering the country illegally is not a pass to treat them however you please.

ObieX · 03-31-2010, 06:14 PM

If the government is serious about stopping illegal immigration they should just start carpet-bombing people as they cross the border in the desert. Just stop being nice about the whole thing. Everyone complains, but nothing ever gets done. Turn a few people into a fine red mist and things will change rather quickly.

Until this stuff starts to happen its just another talking point for politicians to get elected on. There's no point in discussing it. Businesses will continue to get their cheap labor and everyone will go on doing what they're doing.

dogzilla · 04-01-2010, 04:10 AM

The only right an illegal immigrant has is the right to be safely transported back to the border and be told not to come back until he has legal immigration papers.

As far as this rancher who is being sued for $32 million, if it can be proven he kicked one of the women he should be prosecuted for that. But the $32 million lawsuit is beyond absurd.

Property owners in that area have the right to defend themselves and protect their property. So as long as they aren't shooting illegal immigrants in the back, I have no problem with them being armed or detaining anyone they find on their property.

If it takes US military to protect our borders, so be it. That's one of the valid things the federal government should be spending our tax dollars on.

As far as making legal immigration easier, let's talk about that once we get unemployment back to the 5% or so range.

Rekna · 04-01-2010, 06:41 AM

I married an illegal immigrant. Not all illegals are bad, there are many illegals who are good people and just want to make a better life for themselves. The problem with illegal immigration starts at our immigration laws. We need to have ways for honest hard working people to be able to come here with relative ease. It shouldn't be as difficult as it is for honest people. Once we open up our boarders to allow the good people in then I'm all for coming down with a hammer on people crossing illegally.

dksuddeth · 04-01-2010, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

I'm not sure about the relationship between the first and second issues. Yes, something needs to be done about illegal immigration. Part of it is making immigration easier, as there is a clear labor shortage in certain sectors.

pure, unadulterated, bullshit. Unemployment is over 10%. there is no labor shortage anywhere. There's only wage issues.

dippin · 04-01-2010, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

pure, unadulterated, bullshit. Unemployment is over 10%. there is no labor shortage anywhere. There's only wage issues.

The fact that there is 10% unemployment means jack shit for the specific sectors illegals work in.

There are simply no Americans willing to pick tomatoes for even minimum wage, nevermind the wages illegals make. Or busing tables. And we don't need to imagine "what if." We just need to look at tomato farms in states where there was a crack down on illegal immigration.

KirStang · 04-01-2010, 09:24 AM

I don't think force is the proper method for dealing with illegal immigration. Once you confront the realities of the economic incentives between the two countries, then you see why so many undocumented migrants cross the Mexican-US border (dream of better wages, better working conditions, a real career, an education, etc.). Perhaps the best way would be to eliminate or align such economic incentives to decrease deaths and conflicts on the border.

With regards to violence from drug cartels and other violent illegal immigrants, well, I hope the national guard or some legal domestic law enforcement force can prevent needless deaths.

Cimarron29414 · 04-01-2010, 09:57 AM

A colleague just walked in and said there was a call to arms in a Texas town because the Feds decided not to send any troops to defend their border. I am still trying to find a news source. Stand by...

...later...there was no official call to arms. Just a media recorded discussion where some people were being overly dramatic in their frustration to the government's response. (surprise, surprise)

roachboy · 04-01-2010, 12:08 PM

so to make sense of the op i had to do a bit of research into the bizarre-o political world that appears to have taken shape on the arizona/mexico border, which seems to have benefited very few people outside some militia groups and the straighter politicos who attempt to benefit from their support and the hysteria machine that both rely on to keep the whole nativist/fascist thing from getting too far forward. in that peculiar world, the words "mexican" "illegal immigrant" and "drug smuggler" appear to be interchangeable, and this despite certain problems like...o i dunno....take for example the footprints that were tracked going away from the murder scene outlined in the first article toward mexico. like leaving. like...

well, this is the least of it, really. in the paranoid militia-space occupied by bloggers like those who write from the arizona sentinel

The Arizona Sentinel

there's some kind of invasion going on and it is only the heroic action of gun-toting army-playing militia vigilantes that gives nativist folk a fighting chance well hell the governments done let them down by not turning the border into a fortress and not mowing down these people who come streaming across looking for work (THE HORROR) or who move back and forth running contraband commodities (perhaps us drug laws are a Problem? )

and there have been certain...um...excesses as well carried out by these vigilantes, which explains why the minutemen dissolved themselves over the past days following on an ugly little dust-up involving the group's leaders and killing a 9 year old latina girl. but hey, as long as the ultra-right feel "safer.."

of course there's an ugly "legitimate" politics side to all this, the nativist-to-merely reactionary political and law enforcement types that you can read about here:

Phoenix News - Feathered Bastard - Phoenix New Times

now i do all this knowing that as a "pub discussion" there should be no real information. but the op is set up in a fundamentally misleading way, acting as though the information it uses is not problematic, as if the issues that information frames are not **really** particular, only resolvable as the op makes them out to be from a **Very** particular and ultra-rightwing viewpoint, as if the conclusions drawn make sense outside that context. because they don't. not really.

context matters.

it is not at all obvious that there is an "invasion" of the us of a by "illegals"----but it is politically expedient for alot of ultra-rightwing groups and politicos to act as though this is the case.

it is not at all obvious that the category of "immigrant" really makes sense when characterizing these informal transnational labor flows. in more documented flows, the outflow can be as high as 80%...so for every 100 people who enter, 80 leave. are they the same people? impossible to say. but there's very considerable fluidity---it's not a flow of people who are coming into the united states to stay in the main.

it is not obvious that drug trafficking and these labor flows have much to do with each other--but it sure makes for inflammatory copy and that helps ultra-rightwing politicians sell surreal pieces of legislation like you can read about in the weekly blog linked above.

it is not obvious that there's any rational link between individuals having and using guns and this ultra-rightwing non-issue. the details of the murder are not obvious at all. nothing about that case is obvious except that someone ended up killed. whether that death can be exploited to make some larger case of petit-bourgeois conservative victimization is not obvious.

what **is** obvious is that there are conservatives out there for whom the story of their own victimization never, ever gets tired. and that is amazing to me.

there's more that could be said about this.
and i don't live in arizona.
it'd be nice to have folk closer to that space speak to it/about it.

yournamehere · 04-01-2010, 02:04 PM

As a long-time Arizonan, I can tell you two things: illegal immigration is a problem; and it is blown out of proportion by every right wing racist here from Nogales to Page. Everything here is blamed on illegal immigration. The truth of the matter is, whenever these people say "illegal alien," they really mean "those damn brown people."

Whenever I get the chance, I tell them, "You'd have really hated living here 150 years ago - everybody was a Mexican."

Not that the killing of Rob Krentz isn't a tragedy - of course it is, and every indication shows he was killed by someone here illegally.

But 95% of illegal immigrants are peaceful people who only want to make a decent living. That doesn't justify them being here - they should wait their turn like legal immigrants, but to hear some people talk, you'd think they were responsible for all the crime in the U.S. They're not.

It's the drug trade that's fueling the violence, and there's a simple solution to that. Stop doing illegal drugs, and the bad guys who bring them here and fight over the right to sell them in your neighborhood will eventually go away if they're not making any money.

In the meantime, join and support an organization that's working to get them legalized.

dogzilla · 04-01-2010, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I married an illegal immigrant. Not all illegals are bad, there are many illegals who are good people and just want to make a better life for themselves. The problem with illegal immigration starts at our immigration laws. We need to have ways for honest hard working people to be able to come here with relative ease. It shouldn't be as difficult as it is for honest people. Once we open up our boarders to allow the good people in then I'm all for coming down with a hammer on people crossing illegally.

My father in law married moved to Mexico. married someone from Mexico and completed the process for her to get legal immigration status. My brother in law married someone from the former USSR who also went thru the legal immigration process. Why should someone be able to jump ahead in line because the legal process is 'too difficult'? They should complete the legal immigration process just like the others did.

Nobody has the right to sneak across the border illegally because life is too hard in their own country.

---------- Post added at 06:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:27 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

The fact that there is 10% unemployment means jack shit for the specific sectors illegals work in.

There are simply no Americans willing to pick tomatoes for even minimum wage, nevermind the wages illegals make. Or busing tables. And we don't need to imagine "what if." We just need to look at tomato farms in states where there was a crack down on illegal immigration.

So the unemployed American gets to collect unemployment for close to two years because unemployment is so high and he's too good for certain kinds of work.

The illegal immigrant now gets legal status.

Since the newly legal immigrant is most likely working a low paying job that no American would want, he now has to buy health insurance. But since his income is too low, he gets a government subsidy.

Unemployment remains around 10% and the unemployed guy gets his unemployment extended again because the job market is so bad.

And everybody lived happily ever after, except for the long suffering middle class taxpayer who sees his taxes go up again to pay for this nonsense.

KirStang · 04-01-2010, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

My father in law married moved to Mexico. married someone from Mexico and completed the process for her to get legal immigration status. My brother in law someone from the former USSR who also went thru the legal immigration process. Why should someone be able to jump ahead in line because the legal process is 'too difficult'? They should complete the legal immigration process just like the others did.

Nobody has the right to sneak across the border illegally because life is too hard in their own country.

Actually, the fastest way to immigrate is to marry a US citizen (no limit on immigrant visas for foreign nationals married to US citizens; other immigrant visas based on family, work, and the like are heavily limited ). For people who are not married to a US citizen, the wait time to become eligible to immigrate can be as long as 18 years. So, it's not really fair to compare those two anecdotal spouses to your average Mexican. (Source: Visa Bulletin: Visa Bulletin for March 2010)

IMHO, the immigrations system could use some reform.

Quote:

The illegal immigrant now gets legal status.

Since the newly legal immigrant is most likely working a low paying job that no American would want, he now has to buy health insurance. But since his income is too low, he gets a government subsidy.

Unemployment remains around 10% and the unemployed guy gets his unemployment extended again because the job market is so bad.

And everybody lived happily ever after, except for the long suffering middle class taxpayer who sees his taxes go up again to pay for this nonsense.

Where do you get this info from? I have to date YET to see an illegal immigrant get status simply because he is in the United States, or has worked here for too long. The Gov't got rid of things like that in 1986. In contrast with many other modernized Western nation, American immigration law is actually harsher than your average industrialized nation...Please, for everyone's sake, try not to spread too much disinformation.

yournamehere · 04-01-2010, 06:50 PM

Dogzilla, I can assure you that illegals are not collecting Unemployment, nor will they be covered under the new health care bill. Whoever tells you different is lying.

And - Unemployment is not Welfare. I paid into the system for forty years; I'm not going to apologize for collecting for a year and a half.

dippin · 04-01-2010, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

The only right an illegal immigrant has is the right to be safely transported back to the border and be told not to come back until he has legal immigration papers.

As far as this rancher who is being sued for $32 million, if it can be proven he kicked one of the women he should be prosecuted for that. But the $32 million lawsuit is beyond absurd.

Property owners in that area have the right to defend themselves and protect their property. So as long as they aren't shooting illegal immigrants in the back, I have no problem with them being armed or detaining anyone they find on their property.

If it takes US military to protect our borders, so be it. That's one of the valid things the federal government should be spending our tax dollars on.

As far as making legal immigration easier, let's talk about that once we get unemployment back to the 5% or so range.

Just to set the record straight, the piece in the OP is outdated. The case has already been tried. The suits regarding civil rights violations and so on were either dismissed or he was found not guilty. He was found guilty of kicking the woman.

dogzilla · 04-02-2010, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yournamehere

Dogzilla, I can assure you that illegals are not collecting Unemployment, nor will they be covered under the new health care bill. Whoever tells you different is lying.

And - Unemployment is not Welfare. I paid into the system for forty years; I'm not going to apologize for collecting for a year and a half.

What I wrote was that the illegal immigrant gets legal status because immigration rules are relaxed. Then he gets health care coverage at taxpayer expense.

---------- Post added at 05:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

Where do you get this info from? I have to date YET to see an illegal immigrant get status simply because he is in the United States, or has worked here for too long. The Gov't got rid of things like that in 1986. In contrast with many other modernized Western nation, American immigration law is actually harsher than your average industrialized nation...Please, for everyone's sake, try not to spread too much disinformation.

That was in response to dippin's comment that immigration rules should be relaxed. At least until unemployment returns to the normal 5% range, there should be no relaxation of immigration rules, and people that are caught who are here illegally should be deported.

kutulu · 04-02-2010, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by yournamehere

As a long-time Arizonan, I can tell you two things: illegal immigration is a problem; and it is blown out of proportion by every right wing racist here from Nogales to Page. Everything here is blamed on illegal immigration. The truth of the matter is, whenever these people say "illegal alien," they really mean "those damn brown people."

Whenever I get the chance, I tell them, "You'd have really hated living here 150 years ago - everybody was a Mexican."

Not that the killing of Rob Krentz isn't a tragedy - of course it is, and every indication shows he was killed by someone here illegally.

But 95% of illegal immigrants are peaceful people who only want to make a decent living. That doesn't justify them being here - they should wait their turn like legal immigrants, but to hear some people talk, you'd think they were responsible for all the crime in the U.S. They're not.

It's the drug trade that's fueling the violence, and there's a simple solution to that. Stop doing illegal drugs, and the bad guys who bring them here and fight over the right to sell them in your neighborhood will eventually go away if they're not making any money.

In the meantime, join and support an organization that's working to get them legalized.

THIS

As an AZ resident this state is full of racists and teabaggers. Turn on the radio and they are always bitching about illegals.

ottopilot · 04-02-2010, 11:27 AM

well... it appears there's more than enough irrational bigotry to go around for everyone!

Rekna · 04-03-2010, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

What I wrote was that the illegal immigrant gets legal status because immigration rules are relaxed. Then he gets health care coverage at taxpayer expense.

---------- Post added at 05:11 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:08 AM ----------

That was in response to dippin's comment that immigration rules should be relaxed. At least until unemployment returns to the normal 5% range, there should be no relaxation of immigration rules, and people that are caught who are here illegally should be deported.

You sure have a sense of entitlement don't you? If they were legal they would be paying taxes and should be able to get health care. If they are illegal then they may be paying taxes but we don't cover their health care.

dogzilla · 04-03-2010, 01:06 PM

What sense of entitlement? In the 35 years I have been supporting myself, I've never qualified for any government program. The only deductions I claim are for state taxes and charitable deductions. I paid off my mortgage in half the time it written for since I saw no point to paying interest to a bank and getting a fraction of it back as a tax deduction. On the other hand, between income tax, Social Security tax and Medicare tax, the government takes a little more than 20% of my paycheck. Add in the money the government taxes my employer for Social Security and unemployment that could just as well be in my paycheck and it's closer to 30%? Do I get benefits from the feds equivalent to even 20% of my pay? Absolutely not. Then the state and local governments take theirs.

I did some quick calculations. If someone earns $10.00/hr full time, their gross income is $20K. If single, their taxes are $1724. If married, their taxes are $863. If their income is under $13,440(married) or $18440(single) they start to qualify for earned income credit.

2009 poverty thresholds are $10830 or $14570. So if they are paying anything for health care it's not much. I'm picking up the tab for the balance.

So no, I don't want any illegal immigrants to have an easier path to immigration, especially while unemployment is around 10% and I'm paying for people to be unemployed as well.

If an illegal immigrant is paying taxes, not my problem. Nobody made them come here and nobody is forcing them to stay.

Rekna · 04-03-2010, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

What sense of entitlement? In the 35 years I have been supporting myself, I've never qualified for any government program. The only deductions I claim are for state taxes and charitable deductions. I paid off my mortgage in half the time it written for since I saw no point to paying interest to a bank and getting a fraction of it back as a tax deduction. On the other hand, between income tax, Social Security tax and Medicare tax, the government takes a little more than 20% of my paycheck. Add in the money the government taxes my employer for Social Security and unemployment that could just as well be in my paycheck and it's closer to 30%? Do I get benefits from the feds equivalent to even 20% of my pay? Absolutely not. Then the state and local governments take theirs.

I did some quick calculations. If someone earns $10.00/hr full time, their gross income is $20K. If single, their taxes are $1724. If married, their taxes are $863. If their income is under $13,440(married) or $18440(single) they start to qualify for earned income credit.

2009 poverty thresholds are $10830 or $14570. So if they are paying anything for health care it's not much. I'm picking up the tab for the balance.

So no, I don't want any illegal immigrants to have an easier path to immigration, especially while unemployment is around 10% and I'm paying for people to be unemployed as well.

If an illegal immigrant is paying taxes, not my problem. Nobody made them come here and nobody is forcing them to stay.

Did you attend public school? Do you have children and do or did they ever attend public school?

yournamehere · 04-03-2010, 02:06 PM

Dogzilla, as someone who's been unemployed for 16 months now, and about to be forced from my home - I would gladly trade problems with you. I think, like a lot of people, you might be confusing good fortune with "hard work."

Don't worry - when you retire, you'll get your Social Security. When you turn 65, you'll get your Medicare. And if you're ever unfortunate enough to lose your job, your Unemployment will be there for you, too. In the meantime, don't bitch about being too young, too healthy, and too employed.

Sheesh - give some people a bucket of gold, and they'll bitch about how heavy it is.

dogzilla · 04-03-2010, 02:34 PM

I don't know what that has to do with any rights illegal immigrants might have, but yes, both me and one of my kids have attended public school. Also, just in local property taxes alone, I pay about 2% of my income in school tax even though neither me and my kid have been in school for more than 20 years.

dc_dux · 04-03-2010, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

I don't know what that has to do with any rights illegal immigrants might have, but yes, both me and one of my kids have attended public school. Also, just in local property taxes alone, I pay about 2% of my income in school tax even though neither me and my kid have been in school for more than 20 years.

The Social Security Administration estimates that about 2/3 of undocumented workers or illegal immigrants pay FICA taxes....to the tune of $billions/year.

Rekna · 04-03-2010, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

I don't know what that has to do with any rights illegal immigrants might have, but yes, both me and one of my kids have attended public school. Also, just in local property taxes alone, I pay about 2% of my income in school tax even though neither me and my kid have been in school for more than 20 years.

Well I don't have any kids in public schools so why do I need to pay for your children to go to school?

---------- Post added at 12:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:23 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

The Social Security Administration estimates that about 2/3 of undocumented workers or illegal immigrants pay FICA taxes....to the tune of $billions/year.

Yeah Illegals actually help SS because they pay in but are legally barred from pulling out.

dogzilla · 04-03-2010, 04:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Well I don't have any kids in public schools so why do I need to pay for your children to go to school?

I still don't see what that has to do with illegal immigrants, but if you're under 30, then I've probably helped pay for your education since I've been employed and paying taxes for the last 35 years.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Yeah Illegals actually help SS because they pay in but are legally barred from pulling out.

From what I've read, the reason for this is that illegal immigrants don't have valid Social Security numbers, so when they apply for a job they make up a Social Security number or steal someone's, causing problems for that person. If they weren't here illegally, they wouldn't have that problem, would they?

The feds could fix that problem by a few more crackdowns on illegal immigrants and the companies that hire them, but I don't see Obama doing a whole lot about that either.

Rekna · 04-03-2010, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

I still don't see what that has to do with illegal immigrants, but if you're under 30, then I've probably helped pay for your education since I've been employed and paying taxes for the last 35 years.

From what I've read, the reason for this is that illegal immigrants don't have valid Social Security numbers, so when they apply for a job they make up a Social Security number or steal someone's, causing problems for that person. If they weren't here illegally, they wouldn't have that problem, would they?

The feds could fix that problem by a few more crackdowns on illegal immigrants and the companies that hire them, but I don't see Obama doing a whole lot about that either.

Nope, I went to private school so you didn't pay for my education. This is relevant because you said you are against letting more legal immigrants in the country because they won't get paid enough thus you would subsidize their health care. So you are against giving help to others but you are perfectly fine receiving it for your own family. And that makes you a hypocrite. If you were truly against government subsidies you would put your own kids in private school.

Also illegal immigrants are propping up social security to the tune of $7 billion a year not to mention what they pay into medicare. Many of them also pay taxes but don't file for refunds giving another surplus of tax revenue. Cracking down on illegal immigration would actually hurt this country in the form of less tax revenue, more legal costs, less low paid workers (hence rising costs of goods).

I'll be the first to admit that there are portions of the economy that get hurt by illegal immigrants but I also know there are many parts the benefit. Will you admit the same?

dogzilla · 04-03-2010, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Nope, I went to private school so you didn't pay for my education. This is relevant because you said you are against letting more legal immigrants in the country because they won't get paid enough thus you would subsidize their health care. So you are against giving help to others but you are perfectly fine receiving it for your own family. And that makes you a hypocrite. If you were truly against government subsidies you would put your own kids in private school.

Actually, no. Since there's no way I can get back every single penny of tax money that I pay into the public education system, there's no hypocrisy. If I sent my kid to a private school, not only would I be paying her tuition, but I would still be paying taxes for public schools. Now if the system actually supported a 100% exemption from public school taxes if your kid went to private school, I'd support that since that's yet another place I think the feds should be keeping their noses out.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

Also illegal immigrants are propping up social security to the tune of $7 billion a year not to mention what they pay into medicare. Many of them also pay taxes but don't file for refunds giving another surplus of tax revenue. Cracking down on illegal immigration would actually hurt this country in the form of less tax revenue, more legal costs, less low paid workers (hence rising costs of goods).

Until some do-gooder files a lawsuit forcing the government to give these illegals their money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I'll be the first to admit that there are portions of the economy that get hurt by illegal immigrants but I also know there are many parts the benefit. Will you admit the same?

Granted the illegals are holding down labor expenses. However, these illegals are also likely to be showing up in emergency rooms because their employers are unlikely to be covering their medical. They are also affecting unemployment to some extent. Stories about construction crews picking up day laborers off street corners in larger cities have been common for years. Also, there were US construction workers being displayed by illegal immigrant labor. So I'm in the camp that counts them as a net loss.

Rekna · 04-04-2010, 08:10 AM

If you are worried about the costs of them showing up in emergency rooms perhaps the health care should cover them so they don't have to go to the emergency rooms.

dogzilla · 04-04-2010, 02:35 PM

I don't think there's any reason I should have to either pay for their ER visit or for them to be covered by the health care coverage. There is a third option. The government should uphold the law, penalize companies hiring illegal immigrants and deport anyone who is here illegally. Which brings us full circle back to the original post on this thread.

Rekna · 04-04-2010, 08:08 PM

So you go into an emergency room with your appendix about to burst. If you do not get it removed soon you will die. The hospital then asks you to please produce a birth certificate, social security card and 2 forms of picture ID.

This sounds like a great idea! Hospitals should have to verify people are here legally before they treat them!

ASU2003 · 04-04-2010, 09:46 PM

When someone goes to the ER, they aren't worrying about their immigration status.

Now, I would like to see us bill Mexico for this expense.

And you pay taxes for things you may never see, but has improved your life.

dogzilla · 04-05-2010, 01:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

So you go into an emergency room with your appendix about to burst. If you do not get it removed soon you will die. The hospital then asks you to please produce a birth certificate, social security card and 2 forms of picture ID.

This sounds like a great idea! Hospitals should have to verify people are here legally before they treat them!

I wasn't suggesting verifying citizenship at the hospital. I was suggesting the government do the job it is supposed to and deport illegal immigrants when they are found. But what the heck, our nanny state has enough resources to sustain 10% unemployment and invite more people to come to this country illegally because there's some jobs that unemployed Americans are too good for, like construction.

dc_dux · 04-06-2010, 06:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogzilla

I wasn't suggesting verifying citizenship at the hospital. I was suggesting the government do the job it is supposed to and deport illegal immigrants when they are found. But what the heck, our nanny state has enough resources to sustain 10% unemployment and invite more people to come to this country illegally because there's some jobs that unemployed Americans are too good for, like construction.

In fact, more illegal immigrants were deported in Obama's first year in office than in any previous recent year.

I'm all for providing due process and deporting illegal immigrants, particularly those that pose a threat or committed a crime while in the US.

In the long run, it is far more cost effective to provide a path to citizenship (with a fine) for most of the millions already here; those working and contributing to the economy and the social fabric of the country.

And, I dont support sweeping raids on work places that round up some who are legal residents or citizens and hold them w/o cause, which was the more common practice in the recent past.

ottopilot · 04-06-2010, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

I'm all for providing due process and deporting illegal immigrants, particularly those that pose a threat or committed a crime while in the US..

illegal - contrary to law; unlawful.
immigrant - A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.
tresspassing - the criminal act of entering another person's land or property without the permission of the owner or lessee

It's really that simple.

dc_dux · 04-08-2010, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

illegal - contrary to law; unlawful.
immigrant - A person who leaves one country to settle permanently in another.
tresspassing - the criminal act of entering another person's land or property without the permission of the owner or lessee

It's really that simple.

Thanks, otto. I didnt know that.

Now how do you propose rounding up 12 million illegal immigrants w/o providing due process? Or perhaps, due process does not matter.

KirStang · 04-10-2010, 09:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Thanks, otto. I didnt know that.

Now how do you propose rounding up 12 million illegal immigrants w/o providing due process? Or perhaps, due process does not matter.

It's funny because I'm writing on that subject right now. Do you know that Miranda warnings and unreasonable search and seizure don't apply absent egregious circumstances? see Lopez-Mendoza; Navia-Duran v. INS. The rationale being that deportation is a 'civil administrative proceeding' and not criminal as you expect. Funny, because most defendants in civil cases aren't locked up and shipped around the country like cattle.

Nonetheless, due process in the immigration sense encompasses agencies following their own regulations, which, may or may not be in step with the constitution's requirement of due process.

dc_dux · 04-11-2010, 04:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

It's funny because I'm writing on that subject right now. Do you know that Miranda warnings and unreasonable search and seizure don't apply absent egregious circumstances? see Lopez-Mendoza; Navia-Duran v. INS. The rationale being that deportation is a 'civil administrative proceeding' and not criminal as you expect. Funny, because most defendants in civil cases aren't locked up and shipped around the country like cattle.

Nonetheless, due process in the immigration sense encompasses agencies following their own regulations, which, may or may not be in step with the constitution's requirement of due process.

I agree with you in terms of all Constitutional "due process" rights.

Poor choice of words on my part, but are not illegal immigrants facing deportation guaranteed certain rights....even after enactment of the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 that made deportation easier?

The right to to a hearing before an administrative judge. The right to representation (but not paid by govt). The right to be presented with proof of the cause for deportation. The right to an interpreter (for non-English speaking) immigrants, the right to a "speedy" hearing (or at least not to be held indefinitely).....

And the question still remains to those who want to "round them up and throw them out".....how would you accomplish that w/o violating these rights?

---------- Post added at 08:53 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:29 AM ----------

Interesting report published last week on the impact of providing a path to citizenship for the 12+ million illegal immigrants:

Quote:

This report finds that legalizing most currently unauthorized immigrants would not lead to dramatic changes in the labor market, either for unauthorized immigrants or for native workers. We also find little evidence to support the view that such a step would have significant effects on the broader economy, particularly on tax revenues or public assistance programs.

Immigrant Legalization: Assessing the Labor Market Effects

If you thought the health reform debate was divisive and loaded with fear mongering, wait for the upcoming immigration reform debate in Congress.

KirStang · 04-12-2010, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

If you thought the health reform debate was divisive and loaded with fear mongering, wait for the upcoming immigration reform debate in Congress.

I can't wait

. Working in immigration defense, yet being a firearms enthusiast allows me to see both sides of the picture. It's scary how easily people will jump to confirm their biases. One post on a right-leaning gun website spoke of how immigrants "get benefits, medical care, welfare etc. etc." when it is DECIDEDLY not so (unless you jump through a ton of hoops and are somehow eligible for some help--i.e. asylum).

Some of the undocument migrants I know are the hardest working, moral and upstanding people I know.

I wish this country wasn't so divisive and would actually collaborate to achieve greater ends.

03-31-2010, 06:14 PM	#4 (permalink)
ObieX Pickles Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)	If the government is serious about stopping illegal immigration they should just start carpet-bombing people as they cross the border in the desert. Just stop being nice about the whole thing. Everyone complains, but nothing ever gets done. Turn a few people into a fine red mist and things will change rather quickly. Until this stuff starts to happen its just another talking point for politicians to get elected on. There's no point in discussing it. Businesses will continue to get their cheap labor and everyone will go on doing what they're doing. __________________ We Must Dissent.

04-01-2010, 09:57 AM	#10 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	A colleague just walked in and said there was a call to arms in a Texas town because the Feds decided not to send any troops to defend their border. I am still trying to find a news source. Stand by... ...later...there was no official call to arms. Just a media recorded discussion where some people were being overly dramatic in their frustration to the government's response. (surprise, surprise) __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 04-01-2010 at 01:51 PM..

04-01-2010, 12:08 PM	#11 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so to make sense of the op i had to do a bit of research into the bizarre-o political world that appears to have taken shape on the arizona/mexico border, which seems to have benefited very few people outside some militia groups and the straighter politicos who attempt to benefit from their support and the hysteria machine that both rely on to keep the whole nativist/fascist thing from getting too far forward. in that peculiar world, the words "mexican" "illegal immigrant" and "drug smuggler" appear to be interchangeable, and this despite certain problems like...o i dunno....take for example the footprints that were tracked going away from the murder scene outlined in the first article toward mexico. like leaving. like... well, this is the least of it, really. in the paranoid militia-space occupied by bloggers like those who write from the arizona sentinel The Arizona Sentinel there's some kind of invasion going on and it is only the heroic action of gun-toting army-playing militia vigilantes that gives nativist folk a fighting chance well hell the governments done let them down by not turning the border into a fortress and not mowing down these people who come streaming across looking for work (THE HORROR) or who move back and forth running contraband commodities (perhaps us drug laws are a Problem? ) and there have been certain...um...excesses as well carried out by these vigilantes, which explains why the minutemen dissolved themselves over the past days following on an ugly little dust-up involving the group's leaders and killing a 9 year old latina girl. but hey, as long as the ultra-right feel "safer.." of course there's an ugly "legitimate" politics side to all this, the nativist-to-merely reactionary political and law enforcement types that you can read about here: Phoenix News - Feathered Bastard - Phoenix New Times now i do all this knowing that as a "pub discussion" there should be no real information. but the op is set up in a fundamentally misleading way, acting as though the information it uses is not problematic, as if the issues that information frames are not really particular, only resolvable as the op makes them out to be from a Very particular and ultra-rightwing viewpoint, as if the conclusions drawn make sense outside that context. because they don't. not really. context matters. it is not at all obvious that there is an "invasion" of the us of a by "illegals"----but it is politically expedient for alot of ultra-rightwing groups and politicos to act as though this is the case. it is not at all obvious that the category of "immigrant" really makes sense when characterizing these informal transnational labor flows. in more documented flows, the outflow can be as high as 80%...so for every 100 people who enter, 80 leave. are they the same people? impossible to say. but there's very considerable fluidity---it's not a flow of people who are coming into the united states to stay in the main. it is not obvious that drug trafficking and these labor flows have much to do with each other--but it sure makes for inflammatory copy and that helps ultra-rightwing politicians sell surreal pieces of legislation like you can read about in the weekly blog linked above. it is not obvious that there's any rational link between individuals having and using guns and this ultra-rightwing non-issue. the details of the murder are not obvious at all. nothing about that case is obvious except that someone ended up killed. whether that death can be exploited to make some larger case of petit-bourgeois conservative victimization is not obvious. what is obvious is that there are conservatives out there for whom the story of their own victimization never, ever gets tired. and that is amazing to me. there's more that could be said about this. and i don't live in arizona. it'd be nice to have folk closer to that space speak to it/about it. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 04-01-2010 at 12:19 PM..

04-01-2010, 02:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
yournamehere Invisible Location: tentative, at best	As a long-time Arizonan, I can tell you two things: illegal immigration is a problem; and it is blown out of proportion by every right wing racist here from Nogales to Page. Everything here is blamed on illegal immigration. The truth of the matter is, whenever these people say "illegal alien," they really mean "those damn brown people." Whenever I get the chance, I tell them, "You'd have really hated living here 150 years ago - everybody was a Mexican." Not that the killing of Rob Krentz isn't a tragedy - of course it is, and every indication shows he was killed by someone here illegally. But 95% of illegal immigrants are peaceful people who only want to make a decent living. That doesn't justify them being here - they should wait their turn like legal immigrants, but to hear some people talk, you'd think they were responsible for all the crime in the U.S. They're not. It's the drug trade that's fueling the violence, and there's a simple solution to that. Stop doing illegal drugs, and the bad guys who bring them here and fight over the right to sell them in your neighborhood will eventually go away if they're not making any money. In the meantime, join and support an organization that's working to get them legalized. __________________ If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors: "If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too." It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

04-01-2010, 06:50 PM	#15 (permalink)
yournamehere Invisible Location: tentative, at best	Dogzilla, I can assure you that illegals are not collecting Unemployment, nor will they be covered under the new health care bill. Whoever tells you different is lying. And - Unemployment is not Welfare. I paid into the system for forty years; I'm not going to apologize for collecting for a year and a half. __________________ If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors: "If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too." It won't hurt your fashion sense, either. Last edited by yournamehere; 04-01-2010 at 06:54 PM..

03-31-2010, 04:10 PM	#2 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	We need to do something to stop the undocumented immigration. It might be to heavily fine anyone who hires them, it might be to put our national guard along the border, it might be to help Mexico with some of their problems to keep the people from coming here illegally. We've been talking about this for decades, we should have done something by now. I support the ranchers rights to perform citizens arrests on trespassers or defend themselves from violent attacks.

03-31-2010, 04:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	I'm not sure about the relationship between the first and second issues. Yes, something needs to be done about illegal immigration. Part of it is making immigration easier, as there is a clear labor shortage in certain sectors. Yes, something needs to be done about the drug cartels, and I generally think that legalization of drugs would go a long way towards that. But the idea that any of those things make Roger Barnett's actions justified is bullshit. He didn't stop drug lords or anything like that. And he didn't simply stop them and waited for the border patrol. This guy is a douchebag who once held and threatened US-born Mexican-Americans and their three children. In this particular case, people like to say that he was sued simply because he stopped the immigrants. That is false. Most of the charges and lawsuits were dropped or dismissed. All of the charges related to the violation of civil rights were dismissed. He was found guilty of assault. And you know why? Because he kicked a woman while she was on the ground. Catching someone entering the country illegally is not a pass to treat them however you please.

04-01-2010, 04:10 AM	#5 (permalink)
dogzilla Junkie Location: New York	The only right an illegal immigrant has is the right to be safely transported back to the border and be told not to come back until he has legal immigration papers. As far as this rancher who is being sued for $32 million, if it can be proven he kicked one of the women he should be prosecuted for that. But the $32 million lawsuit is beyond absurd. Property owners in that area have the right to defend themselves and protect their property. So as long as they aren't shooting illegal immigrants in the back, I have no problem with them being armed or detaining anyone they find on their property. If it takes US military to protect our borders, so be it. That's one of the valid things the federal government should be spending our tax dollars on. As far as making legal immigration easier, let's talk about that once we get unemployment back to the 5% or so range.

04-01-2010, 06:41 AM	#6 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I married an illegal immigrant. Not all illegals are bad, there are many illegals who are good people and just want to make a better life for themselves. The problem with illegal immigration starts at our immigration laws. We need to have ways for honest hard working people to be able to come here with relative ease. It shouldn't be as difficult as it is for honest people. Once we open up our boarders to allow the good people in then I'm all for coming down with a hammer on people crossing illegally.

04-01-2010, 09:24 AM	#9 (permalink)
KirStang Future Bureaucrat	I don't think force is the proper method for dealing with illegal immigration. Once you confront the realities of the economic incentives between the two countries, then you see why so many undocumented migrants cross the Mexican-US border (dream of better wages, better working conditions, a real career, an education, etc.). Perhaps the best way would be to eliminate or align such economic incentives to decrease deaths and conflicts on the border. With regards to violence from drug cartels and other violent illegal immigrants, well, I hope the national guard or some legal domestic law enforcement force can prevent needless deaths.

04-02-2010, 11:27 AM	#19 (permalink)
ottopilot let me be clear Location: Waddy Peytona	well... it appears there's more than enough irrational bigotry to go around for everyone! __________________ "It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

04-03-2010, 01:06 PM	#21 (permalink)
dogzilla Junkie Location: New York	What sense of entitlement? In the 35 years I have been supporting myself, I've never qualified for any government program. The only deductions I claim are for state taxes and charitable deductions. I paid off my mortgage in half the time it written for since I saw no point to paying interest to a bank and getting a fraction of it back as a tax deduction. On the other hand, between income tax, Social Security tax and Medicare tax, the government takes a little more than 20% of my paycheck. Add in the money the government taxes my employer for Social Security and unemployment that could just as well be in my paycheck and it's closer to 30%? Do I get benefits from the feds equivalent to even 20% of my pay? Absolutely not. Then the state and local governments take theirs. I did some quick calculations. If someone earns $10.00/hr full time, their gross income is $20K. If single, their taxes are $1724. If married, their taxes are $863. If their income is under $13,440(married) or $18440(single) they start to qualify for earned income credit. 2009 poverty thresholds are $10830 or $14570. So if they are paying anything for health care it's not much. I'm picking up the tab for the balance. So no, I don't want any illegal immigrants to have an easier path to immigration, especially while unemployment is around 10% and I'm paying for people to be unemployed as well. If an illegal immigrant is paying taxes, not my problem. Nobody made them come here and nobody is forcing them to stay.

04-03-2010, 02:06 PM	#23 (permalink)
yournamehere Invisible Location: tentative, at best	Dogzilla, as someone who's been unemployed for 16 months now, and about to be forced from my home - I would gladly trade problems with you. I think, like a lot of people, you might be confusing good fortune with "hard work." Don't worry - when you retire, you'll get your Social Security. When you turn 65, you'll get your Medicare. And if you're ever unfortunate enough to lose your job, your Unemployment will be there for you, too. In the meantime, don't bitch about being too young, too healthy, and too employed. Sheesh - give some people a bucket of gold, and they'll bitch about how heavy it is. __________________ If you want to avoid 95% of internet spelling errors: "If your ridiculous pants are too loose, you're definitely going to lose them. Tell your two loser friends over there that they're going to lose theirs, too." It won't hurt your fashion sense, either.

04-03-2010, 02:34 PM	#24 (permalink)
dogzilla Junkie Location: New York	I don't know what that has to do with any rights illegal immigrants might have, but yes, both me and one of my kids have attended public school. Also, just in local property taxes alone, I pay about 2% of my income in school tax even though neither me and my kid have been in school for more than 20 years.

04-04-2010, 08:10 AM	#30 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	If you are worried about the costs of them showing up in emergency rooms perhaps the health care should cover them so they don't have to go to the emergency rooms.

04-04-2010, 02:35 PM	#31 (permalink)
dogzilla Junkie Location: New York	I don't think there's any reason I should have to either pay for their ER visit or for them to be covered by the health care coverage. There is a third option. The government should uphold the law, penalize companies hiring illegal immigrants and deport anyone who is here illegally. Which brings us full circle back to the original post on this thread.

04-04-2010, 08:08 PM	#32 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	So you go into an emergency room with your appendix about to burst. If you do not get it removed soon you will die. The hospital then asks you to please produce a birth certificate, social security card and 2 forms of picture ID. This sounds like a great idea! Hospitals should have to verify people are here legally before they treat them!

04-04-2010, 09:46 PM	#33 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	When someone goes to the ER, they aren't worrying about their immigration status. Now, I would like to see us bill Mexico for this expense. And you pay taxes for things you may never see, but has improved your life.