My two sons have not seen the same doctor twice in 7 years..... 7 years for two boys. I have gone to the same hospital the whole time, i personally have not seen the same doctor twice. This outside of specialist who you must demand and then wait until they can fit you in. I have waited for the appt I am having next mon for 45 days, that was the soonest avail he had, the soonest.

I meant no disrespect. I don't know what it is like in Canada, but it apparently isn't all that great here, congratulations on your fantastic country seriously, I am jealous of your free health care system and how proud you all are of it, I'm just not trusting our government to get it right, and the way they have pushed this bill doesn't help with that trust. Maybe I should try it, Canada that is. Wait, I hate snow, although I think we got more here in MD than ya'll did. I did love the Olympics though, that was awesome, I loved the four tribal nations, that was way cool.

---------- Post added at 11:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 PM ----------

Please enlightenment with your wisdom oh fingered one. I await with bated breathe to be shown the err of my ways by one so noble.



No prob. rahl, I've got a trampoline, apparently I've put myself on that same limb a couple times, as everyone seems to be so graciously pointing out. Ah, the taste of defeat, it sucks. But I'm not done spitting. fsst, fsst, fsst....

I USED to have the utmost respect for Dennis Kucinich. Sure at times he was nutty Denny, but you had to respect the way he would dig his heels in and right or wrong would never break or change his vote. I have seen and heard interviews with him since announcing his change. He looks and sounds beaten and tired. I truly hope the Dem leadership likes what it did to people like Dennis and Sherrod Brown. Not only has it destroyed many careers of otherwise good people, but the leadership has destroyed Congress people that actually cared about their constituents and this nation.

FUCK YOU DEM PARTY GO TO HELL AND I WILL LAUGH WHEN YOU LOSE COME NOVEMBER..... FUCK YOU PELOSI, OBAMA, AND ALL YOU POWER HUNGRY EGOTISTICAL SELF RIGHTEOUS IDOTS WHO ONLY CARE ABOUT THE POWER. FUCK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So sad..... Dennis was truly a good person and you destroyed him...

Wonder when the markets crash tomorrow, what's going to be your spin??????

ps: I DEEPLY APOLOGIZE IF MY LANGUAGE OFFENDS... IT IS THE PASSION SPEAKING AND WATCHING WHAT THIS PARTY I ONCE SO LOVED HAS DONE TO NOT ONLY DENNIS AND GOOD PEOPLE BUT TO THE COUNTRY AS A WHOLE.

The absurd overreactions are astonishing.

Well that was annoying, guess pan figured if caps don't work to get his point across, use really annoying huge lettering.
No worries, things are different all over I know you meant no disrespect, it's all good.

Yes the Olympics were quite the even, the opening ceremonies were great, aside from the one cauldron malfunctioning. You probably did have more snow than us, we had a rather mild winter compared to normal it seemed.

Speaking only for myself, I'm not offended.

I do think it is unfortunate when passion gets in the way of the facts.

I look forward to the day when someone actually posts something factual against the current reform. Rage is no substitute to reason.

Oh rahl, I might be showing my aces here, but I'm going to have to agree with pan6467 here, just not so loudly, though I want too, Please don't be to disappointed with me, you knew me all along, I feel so naughty. Oh Shut up Obama. I am smiling deep down inside somewhere, In my happy place, and right now for the first time in my life, America ain't it. So disappointed with you Obama.

Why would you be disappointed in Obama? It ain't like this is a shocker. Unless you're disappointed that he didn't go as far as he said he would during the campaign? Because that's why I'm disappointed in him.

I wasn't specifically referring to you. Just everyone who has no idea what is really in the bill. I hated it at first, partly because I'm in the insurance industry but mostly because I didn't read the bill. Now I have, and it's going to be a good thing for the country and won't hurt my business personally. It will likely increase sales. (supplemental market)

dc-dux I'll be watching you, you better check and double check all your facts, regardless of where your passions lie and whether the facts you detail are lies that where told to you, lies you trusted or believed in. Facts are sometimes what people convince you to believe. I will continue to believe this was wrong, that is a fact.

I said it earlier, but this doesn't go far enough to help people become healthier and reduce health expenses in that way.

And I get annoyed when they say it's 1/6th of our economy. It shouldn't be. In most other countries it's not. Health expenses in my yearly budget are 1/50th to 1/40th of my income.

That's cool! You do that.

I try to check my facts very carefully and have no problem acknowledging when I am wrong and I dont post links to partisan opinions that are misleading or factually incorrect. That comes with 20+ years of working on public policy issues.

It is unfortunate that you were not able to do the same throughout this discussion.

I have always been disappointed with Obama, from the first moment he decided it would be o.k. to acknowledge a withdrawal date, like a sucker punch to our kids over there. Just lost all respect for the man.

I can say this: Dennis himself in interviews has said he was browbeaten and truly had no choice but to vote the way party leaders told him. His voice is cracking, he's showing his age..... I truly feel sorry for the man. I may not have always agreed with him but again, I reiterate, I HAD THE UTMOST RESPECT FOR HIM. Dennis in his heart always showed he cared about his district and now, watching him, listening to him.... he's a fucking shadow of himself... THAT IS WHAT PELOSI, OBAMA AND THE FUCKING POWER HUNGRY LEADERS OF THE DEM PARTY HAVE DONE.

Sorry, but I just find it very sad for the country when they have to do this to someone who actually cared. It's all about POWER.

Today, the US has officially become late stage Rome with Barrack Room Emperors.

Post a link to ONE such interview, please....where Kucinich said he was "browbeaten" or "had no choice"

Every interview I saw, he explained why he changed his vote even though he does not believe the bill is perfect.

I just wanted what you said repeated, I wholeheartedly agree, this administration is a joke, and the American people's new "heath care" will be the butt of it.

If this is what made you lose all your respect for him, then I would suggest that perhaps you haven't been paying attention. The same could be said of anyone who felt "sucker punched" by the announcement of a withdrawal date. He's been pretty clear about his goals as president. It sounds to me like you're disappointed with the fact that he was able to follow through with his goals.

I'm just saying, it you're disappointed with anyone, it should be the leadership of the Republican party for its inability to muster up enough blind, seething, misplaced, fearful, misinformed enmity to successfully stymie the president's efforts. You should be disappointed that they couldn't come up with something more plausible and more fear inducing than "death panels". You should be disappointed that they couldn't come up with something scarier and less familiar than socialism to use as a motivator. You should be disappointed that the Republican party fucked up the country so badly when they were in power that they couldn't help but put the Democrats in a position to pass this legislation. The last person you should be disappointed in is Obama.

I know you disagree with the mandated coverage part, which I adressed in the auto insurance comparisson. But what specifically about the "new" health care do you have a problem with?

is it the 30+million who will now have access to coverage?
is it the pre-ex exclusion?
is it the fact that now all health premiums will go down due to increased risk pool?
is it the fact that it is budget nuetral?
is it the fact that you can keep the insurance you have, or choose from a plethera of other private carriers?

Go to WTAM.com look under Trivisonno and play the interview.

I held out hope that Kucinich would stand up and change back. I find it sadly funny you care more about where I say he said he was browbeaten and had no choice than the fact the party destroyed the man. How pathetic.

Get what you want at any cost, huh?


Isn't that what we stood against W for? Didn't we feel W did the same thing? And now, the leaders of this party are far worse and have done far more damage than W EVER DID. (And I have never been a W fan, so please don't go there.)

---------- Post added at 12:31 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:26 AM ----------

And again, I reiterate my OP: because of what you listed and other reasons, the GOP committed political suicide, maybe not as much as the Dems tho.

The Libertarian Party right now is probably salivating over the fact they will have a serious influx of people joining now.

I dont see any Kucinich interview saying he was browbeaten.

And I just disagree with your emotional rants that are without factual foundation about Obama and the Democrats.

But carry on in your bashing crusade! That is your right and I support that right.

Nowhere in that interview did he say he was browbeaten. He stated that though he didn't agree with the bill he did agree that if the bill was defeated any chance for any reform would take years and years to come about again and he couldn't be apart of that. Unless there is some other interview I missed, I don't see where you are coming from

I just listened to the interview. I think you're delusional if this is the impression you got from it. If anyone was trying to browbeat him, it was the host, repeatedly interrupting him, telling him he had to put a dress on. I suspect that you didn't think Kucinich sounded defeated until you heard the host tell Kucinich he sounded defeated. The host kept saying Kucinich sounded defeated, and he tried his damnedest to get Kucinich to admit defeat but it didn't work. If anything, Kucinich probably felt exhausted because he was being interviewed by a someone intent on acting like a loudmouthed douchebag.

Kucinich specifically said in the interview that he wasn't threatened by constituents or the party. Kucinich said repeatedly in the interview that he voted for a flawed bill because he thought it might make more significant reform possible.

And how did he sound Rahl? Like the Dennis of old? Did he sound happy and enthusiastic over it? If no one has ever heard Dennis talk they may not understand. But I have heard Dennis talk for as long as I can remember (going back to the days when he was Cleveland's youngest mayor ever and he fought corruption in the city and for City Power.

He's always been an idealist and up until the past week ALWAYS been energetic and very self assured in his views. That interview and others the past week, he has been a shell of himself. Broken, trembling voice.

I dare you to listen to older Dennis tapes and compare them and tell me that you can't hear the voice of a broken man in Dennis now.

He is on again with Triv today (Monday) at 4pm. Feel free to listen. I'm sure Triv will play the parts I am talking about.

So he didnt actually say he was brow beaten?

I agree he was not enthusiastic about the bill, which is not a perfect "progressive' bill..but his explanation was reasonable and rational and not a defeatest emotional response....of course, unless you wanted to be believe he was brow beaten.

You're a voice analyst now? All this emotion and rage is based on a percieved change in his 'voice' you may or may not hear? Jesus.....

Pan, he is an old man so clearly he isn't going to sound like he did in his earlier years. I'm sorry that the facts in which you yourself provided contradict your own posts, but there it is in plain english for everyone to listen to.

The host clearly said Kucinich sounded defeated, and his sidekick clearly agreed. Case closed. :expressionless:

Think I just answered that. I've heard him as long as I can remember. I have followed him because in the 80's and early 90's when I thought about going into politics there were 2 men in Ohio I looked at that I saw conviction from and liked, Sherrod Brown and Dennis Kucinich. I even respected and liked the part of Dennis that stated he'd seen UFOs and was hanging with Shirley McClaine. I felt he was honest and ALWAYS stuck by what he believed.

So don't tell me I DON'T KNOW Dennis.... I DO and Triv (as much as I love Triv) had NOTHING to do with my opinion over Dennis.

Ever think that maybe he's just tired? He's been through a lot lately....

So far everything in this statement is provably false. No amount of "thinking" you know him is going to change that.

The fact is he never said he was brow beaten...he never said he had no choice...he was not "bought" as others (FOX heads) allege.

He made a hard personal decision that a bill that is not perfect still has enough good at the foundation and is far better than no bill at all.

I'm just saying that I don't necessarily trust your judgment here, no offense. Also, do you think it may have something to do with all the legislating going on? I know that I probably "sound defeated" after a long day at work. And as others have mentioned, he never said he was browbeaten or forced to do anything by the party. His voice wasn't cracking and he even laughed when the host said he sounded defeated. So either you misremembered or you exaggerated.

I can link interviews and speeches he has given in recent weeks where his voice was as sharp as ever.

I love the Dennis bashing. "He's old".... lol 63 is not that old in congress.

Maybe this had something to do with it: from Wiki:

Dennis Kucinich - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Damn, dude.

You put words in his mouth that are not in any interview.

The rest is your interpretation... based on your own admitted emotional and passionate opposition to the bill, perhaps?

I doubt that as well as you "know him" that he confided in you personally about his own emotional state.

I'm too tired to keep arguing with you pan.
please feel free to post any links with time indexes of him specifically saying that he was browbeaten and strongarmed into voting, then maybe you will have a leg to stand on.

But as of now, the info you yourself posted put the lie to your claim.

Pan.. for guy that is full of hyperbole, this particular statement takes the cake.

The Obama administration has done more damage to American than Bush and his administration ever did? Really?

The mind boggles.

Sorry. But as an observer from the outside, I just can't agree.

So here we are, six pages seething with rage, and yet not one post about the specifics of the plan people disagree with. THEY DESTROYED AMERICA, SOCIALISM, ETC. ETC. and yet no specifics. For a bill that is apparently so terrible, it shouldn't be that hard, should it?

It is particularly surreal to see people at the same time buy into the "socialism" bullshit and be disappointed that Kucinich voted for this bill, when in reality he wanted (like I want) universal healthcare.

My bet is that in 2 years all these folks will be enjoying the tax breaks while still raging against Obama.

Pretty sure you can't complain that just a little more socialism in American politics is going to "destroy the American Way" and simultaneously be jealous of the much more socialist Canada. I think you'd be surprised at just how many of your fellow Americans would also welcome even more socialism in our policy. Regardless of what Sarah Palin may think, they are real Americans too, and their votes count just as much as yours when they vote for their representatives... who then vote for things like health care reform.

It's really alright to be sad that the government is not going in the direction you'd like. It's alright to think this is bad for the country (though it'd be nice if facts, not emotion were given as explanations when asked why). But, seriously, it's time to accept that there are a LOT of people out there who think otherwise, and part of living in a Democratic Republic - or any society for that matter - is accepting that, you know what, sometimes those "other people" are going to get what they want and you're not going to get what you want. All the while, the country will go on and life will go on. It's all part of behaving like a grown-up.

Smeth... I just read the article to which you linked. I can't believe that such a prominent GOP leader would actually say, "we think this is the beginning of the end for America."

America really is a mess. I can't imagine a politician, in such a high position, in any other Western nation, spewing forth such hyperbole. Wow.