To begin, I'd like to thank you all for this reasonable, respectful discussion of a divisive topic that has been divisively presented. Major national issues often bring out heated emotions, but it's quite refreshing to see people NOT taking the hyperbolic bait and responding in kind. :)


My thoughts on the matter match most of yours - as soon as the Messiah talk appeared, I disengaged. But before that...

Pan, you clearly recognize that gratuitous insults/slights to the President and those who support him result in negative responses from the very people you're trying to convince:

We're left wondering what you hope to accomplish by using this tactic. It's certainly not a reasonable effort to find common ground.

The problem may lie with your interpretation of how to properly "speak out" against things you oppose. Your definition seems to require hyperbole and direct insults against those who do not agree with your position on this topic or your debate methods.

Isn't this exactly what our terrorist detractors do?

Aren't ya'll being a little harsh with Pan? As I see it, he's ranting...not with intentions of being devisive as you say, but rather he's "getting it off his chest". And this is a good place to do it. No? I thought it was a great opener for stirring up a good discussion.

...and, silent-jay, I understand what you're saying.

Peace :rose:

...

I do find it funny that so many people immediately discard the 'more troops' theory without ever having any military experience. I find that laughable indeed.

You don't need military experience to figure out if it's a good thing or bad, military experience has nothing to do with it, by that thinking the only people who should be your president should be people who have military experience. Also don't really see 'so many people' as you put it discarding the 'more troops' theory, all I'm saying is it isn't as simple as pans 1-2-3 simple decision, if putting troops lives in danger is that simple, then he really doesn't care about soldiers lives and all they are to him is cannon fodder.
Cool, I'm not always the best at putting what I mean into words, I can see where what I was trying to get at was foggy.

Does this require officer and/or administration military experience?

it would require some sort of military tactical training, yes.

I don't know, "more troops" by itself seems like the opposite of strategy.

This is what we would call 'a load of horseshit'. That is because presidents have advisors, both military and civilian. The fact that he can listen and then discard that info is irrelevant. At least he has someone to tell him what they think.

Would we have to go to Afghanistan as well?

Word of advice, if you know you're ranting, and being emotional instead of logical and playing with facts. I suggest using your blog instead. People can't complain that we disagree with this rant when it's clear as day factually incorrect and the written observations come from a perspective clouded by ulterior motives and personal agendas.

Yes he has advisors, yes he doesn't have to listen to them, you seem to discount peoples opinions on the subject simply because they don't have military experience, which to me is the 'load of horseshit' that you speak of. It is quite laughable indeed.

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

We have a winner, a blog post would have been the perfect place for this topic, not the politics section where pan must have known it was going to get picked apart like a dead deer.

Where are there falsehoods, please show me.... by all means.

And yes it is as easy as 1-2-3 in the example I gave. It may take a few days or a week to make a decision but not MONTHS. You have men and women over there needing help and our president puts them on hold.

do wait..8 years into the adventure in afghanistan well past the point where the united states became an element within a civil war, all that based on some strange conflation of the taliban and al-qeada, 8 years in to a conflict without a strategy and NOW you are complaining about it taking a bit of time to figure out what the next move should be?

that's a little peculiar dont you think?

You're asking me to apply reason to a rant. I don't want to ruin your thread.

Maybe he's using the Canadian men and women over there as a crutch.

And, you know, public opinion on the matter matters not. So that's not an issue.

What else could it be besides his hating America and military personnel? Right?

If he didn't, he would have done a Surge or something by now. Is that it?

Or maybe....what roachboy said.

Wow, you really have no understanding of how it works. A few days or a week? Seriously? As roachboy said "8 years into the adventure in afghanistan" and you start to complain now? Seems you have a hard on for Obama if you just start to complain now, at least that's how it looks to me. As I said before, you're blinded by emotion, it's quite apparent from this thread, and by your attitude that it should only 'take a few days or a week'.

Actually, it makes perfect sen.... OH, you're being glib. Well played, comrade.

Considering that the difficulty in Afghanistan is not winning battles, but setting up institutions that will generate stability in a religiously, linguistically and ethnically diverse country that has been at war, either internally or against foreign invaders for most of the past 300 years, I don't think first hand military experience is that important. Or at least it is certainly not more important than knowing the history of the country, its internal politics, and knowledge about political processes in general.


And I am surprised that you of all people think that the adequate solution to an unstable country is an ever growing number of foreign troops protecting that which has just been ranked as the 2nd most corrupt government in the world.

Depends. Are any of OJ's lawyers still alive? Besides, within 5 minutes, the trial will be about Bush and the CIA. Oh, I just saw the cost of security for the trial: $75 million. Paying that for some nebulous and insincere props from other countries sounds like a great deal! But then again, Obama supporters live to spend the money of other people.




Let me spell it out for you. Clinton and Janet Reno incinerated 80 men, women, and children, by illegally using military weapons, and illegally using CS. Yet you complain about pouring water up the noses of THREE people.


McVeigh did it because of Waco. Kill him, but give Clinton and Reno fat retirements. Makes perfect sense.

Great. I guess the economy is fine, then, and the country's deficit is gone. Oh, wait...

Said by the person who followed up with a post ridiculing the religions of others. Nice.


The reason nobody calls him the messiah anymore is that he hasn't fulfilled any of his promises. His sycophants still have to pay the portion of their rent and gas money that they can't get from other people's taxes.

What I wonder about is why no liberals seem to be upset that Obama is trading a war we could win (Iraq) for a war we can't win (Afghanistan). If only he were as intelligent as Bush, we wouldn't have this problem.

Cool.....another emotional rant :thumbsup:

I am curious....what religion did I ridicule?

This thread doesn't need any more hyperbole. Even if it's sarcastic.

I mentioned the Dow merely to make a point: many tend to only look at what's going wrong and then get all pissed off because no one is doing any thing right and the whole country is going to shit.

Oh, wait.... but the Dow is up 30 fucking percent under Obama's watch.

No one's talking about that, despite the fact it's a leading indicator of the economy.

But let's not let facts ruin this perfectly good rant thread.

The DOW being up 30 percent has done nothing to help the average American. This boom will do little to help Americans in general. It is only up on the prospect of companies making money in China and a few other up and coming third world countries. It has done nothing to lower unemployment. It has done nothing to bring lost jobs back. It has done nothing to help the middle class. What it has done is serve to again make the rich richer and the poor poorer.

*edit* and if the only positive thing we can talk about since Obama took office is the DOW being up 30% on the prospect of companies making money in China we are in deep shit aren't we?

I have been against the war from day 1. However, once there, we owe it to our troops to do all we can to make them as safe as possible and to provide them with whatever is necessary to do so. The ONLY 2 alternatives short of the war ending by victory or mutual armistice, (which isn't in the foreseeable future) are to withdraw and end the war (of which I am not opposed) or to continue and suffer unnecessary losses. That is it. It is up to the president to act swiftly and with conviction of his choice (right or wrong)... It should never be a political football for a president to sit on and wait for poll results or some personal political game. Obama IS doing just that. You can make excuses all you want for him but in the end he is costing us more lives and wounded by his waiting.

---------- Post added at 08:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:48 AM ----------

No, I am asking you to show me where the falsehoods are... it doesn't destroy the thread if anything it shows me where I may need to open my stance some or to prove your "truths" wrong. That is debate. That is conversational... to just say "you have falsehoods, but I won't tell you what they are." is basically adding nothing except trying to insult someone's views.

---------- Post added at 09:35 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:52 AM ----------

That's why since Obama has taken control and given stimulus packages, Ohio now face double digit unemployment, the only thing available are lower wage jobs AND now 1 in 6 households are behind in mortgages.... ohhh and all those nice stimulus packages are taxable incomes now.

What exactly HAS HE DONE? Tell me. What has he done to better the United States today and for the future?

A healthcare package that is going to tax all of us more, that you will have to have (or an alternative thereof government approved) or face fines and jail time... plus telling women "yeah we know that even the Cancer Society and doctors recommend mammograms by age 40, but so few women really get breast cancer the government (and thus private insurance companies) will only pay for a simple preventative exam after age 50.

Yeah, Christina Applegate, her mom, Stefanie Spielman and so on (and those are just the "famous ones" that got exams and were diagnosed earlier than that "50". Those people now... aw well casualties. Fuck them. Would cost too much.

"But this package allows us to give everyone fair and balanced medical coverage."

Meanwhile, the people passing this garbage will have the best care our tax dollars will pay for the rest of their lives.

Oh and we can't forget, government funding for abortions.... hmmm I have no problem with legalized abortion, I feel and always have it's a woman's decision (provided the father doesn't want the child). But it is just that.... THE WOMAN'S CHOICE. I see no reason for funding it with tax payer dollars, unless it is a life and death situation or the result of a documented rape. But we the people have no say in that matter, it is going to be federally funded now whether we like it or not.

I was and am an advocate of universal healthcare. I believe EVERYONE has the right to the best medical treatment available, regardless of ability to pay. But this bill is the wrong solution. It does nothing but make government more intrusive into our lives.

So again, I ask, as an independent, who once was a Democrat until the party became run by totally insane extremists, why should I support this man? What has he done to better this nation and to deserve my support and not my ridicule?

I have a feeling those here will not answer me with what he has done but more "you are so wrong" answers with NOTHING ELSE to show me why. The extremists don't care to tell us what he has done to better us and the future, they just don't want him ridiculed because they feel silence, ridiculing and destroying those that do speak out, will keep enough people from truly looking at this mess, thus allowing him, and them, to stay in power longer so that they may continue down this road.

In their minds, there is no other way to better this country than theirs any other way is not even up for discussion. Unfortunately, their extreme tunnel vision will destroy us.

They look for outside countries approval and believe the world will be greater, what they fail to see is those they seek approval from, laugh at them and see weakness. Not to mention these outside sources (some of which would rather see our complete annihilation) are telling us how to do things and what "the US needs to do to save the world", then sitting back and laughing at the stupidity and how we are destroying ourselves. Can anyone say, "Cap and Spend."?

---------- Post added at 09:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 AM ----------

BTW.... congrats on buying the vote with 100 million taxpayers dollars. Yeah.... without doing giving that BRIBE... would it have passed? NOT A CHANCE. Nice to see that Obama lived up to his promise of change and a open and accountable government.

Part of me when I voted for him, truly believed he meant it. LOL.... he's worse than W.

---------- Post added at 09:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:48 AM ----------

Historic health care bill clears Senate hurdle - Yahoo! News

And I find it funny that some people constantly bitch about the country and the Constitution without being a Constitutional Law scholar. I find that laughable indeed.

pan....IMO, the issue with your rant is more the tone than the substance....or that your anti-Obama bias (even if you voted for him) is no different than those you mock as blind and obedient followers. Neither bring people together.

Constructive criticism is more productive in bringing people together and/or discussing the issues of the day than characterizing the president as UnAmerican or constantly bitching and yelling w/o offering solutions.

so what all this says really is that you've decided what obama's motivations are.
based on what exactly?
if you actually read the papers, it seems pretty clear that there is a debate going on about what exactly should do. in yesterday's guardian for example a piece floated which argued that karzai's government would collapse almost immediately were the western forces to pull out.
now i don't know at what point the united states and others found themselves propping up the central government in kabul, such as it is. and i am not sure how it came to pass that the united states and others have spent the past years acting like just another militia on the order of the taliban.
the whole thing seems insane to me.

so if there is in fact a serious debate happening within the administration and amongst the allies about how to get out of afghanistan, i would say it's about fucking time.
the idea that such a debate can be framed as a problem...i really don't know where this is coming from. it sounds like conservative nonsense, the kind of thing that is as usual from the right these days entirely about dominating particular news cycles and not at all about matters of any substance.

so there is the world. and there is the world as television frames it. they're different. and then there's the all-about-television modes of thinking and acting from the right. that's different.

you might claim to be an independent, pan, and i dont doubt that in some ways you are, but on this entire thread, everything about it, you've drunk conservative kool-aid. hope its fun out there. what color's the sky?

There are numerous other economic indicators that have been rising in recent months.....wholesale sales and inventory, retails sales, new housing construction, etc. all of which are a positive sign that the economy is improving, and certainly better than in January of this year.

This thread is a great example of why reason will never ultimately prevail.

Wizzard's 3rd rule: Passion rules reason

Dude. READ WHAT YOU RESPOND TO. You even quoted me. Without reading what I wrote. This is why Tilted Politics is a cesspool.

If I were to ask you to tell me something true, you would give me this....Yet, you continue to ignore or otherwise dismiss facts that don't feed your frustrations....

Why do you honestly expect me to engage in your rant?

Perhaps I should engage in my own ranting manner, stating how America's biggest problem is its fear of regulation and socialist programs.

Your banks need regulation. You have millions of children without access to health care.

The problem isn't with the American leadership. The problem is with the American people.

But that is the danger of freedom: you can vote anyone into power, but nothing will happen if Americans continue to be led by the nose through such things as rampant consumerism and false hopes of prosperity...get-rich-quick schemes and keeping up with the Joneses.

Dude, the Joneses are broke, and it isn't the president's fault.

First paragraph, that is why I am open to being shown where I am factually mistaken. I am very open to hearing and true debate over issues IF in TFP land a plausible solution or even respectable understanding of each other's views can be obtained.

The reality is that neither side breeds constructive criticism. Neither side allows for those of us in the center (and the US is a Centrist nation) to have opinions and try to see compromise.

The extremists on BOTH sides fight to silence the middle or to use us when they need our votes. Neither seeks true dialogue, where they can disagree with opposition's views but respect them or reaching a give and take compromise. BOTH sides are fighting to have ONLY their views, ideas and policies in force with NO middle ground.

IT'S FUCKING INSANE.... instead of debate, BOTH sides works to destroy the other, without letting those in the middle judge for themselves what they believe.

An example.... I'm being told I am drinking conservative Kool Aid... my past response would have been "fuck you" and I would have either dug in deeper in my views or gone with the mob and pushed my true beliefs aside because I didn't want to people to think that because "I am a Democrat".

Well, the "fuck you" doesn't work because it divides further and truly allows no middle ground.

The "I'll play good Dem/GOP and ignore my feelings" doesn't work because then you allow by default of speaking out the extremists to take over.

Either way, the centrist voices who could work with opposing centrist voices and find compromises to benefit the many and that would work are buried and told by both sides (unless being used) that they are "radical" and "emotional" and so on. Yet, no one shows the mistakes, no one admits their own emotional ties. It's all about winning and being on the power to dictate policy (even if you know deep down it is wrong, divisive and destructive) for the extremists.

The reality to the extremist is that anything close to center seems extreme and wrong, there is no compromise. To the extremist, they do not believe their emotions play into their views because they have the extremist superior belief that only their way is right... hence the extremism. Without emotion and a superior attitude, there would be no extremisms.

Then when a Centrist like myself comes along and says, "You 2 sides are both fucked up, neither of you are willing to compromise. Neither of you are wanting to truly better the nation and the future, it's all about power and winning." That centrist voice must be silenced... because being a centrist nation that is primarily socially liberal/fiscally conservative that voice may arouse people to see what the under lying truth is. That truth being... the extremists do not want compromise, do not want what is truly best, they want to win and have the power.

If true universal healthcare was the goal.... time would have been taken, research and debates would have been done and a bill that would be something everyone who worked on it could be proud of would be what is getting signed. But it isn't that. It's backroom deals, one party's extremists dictating what policy will be and if you don't like it tough, "you're extreme and wrong, shut up sit down and vote the way we tell you or you won't get reelected". There was no compromise. Just power. No positive change in how government has been doing business the last 30+ years and we see where that attitude and extremism gets us.... a nation divided and falling apart.

There is negative change during this and the last administration though. The extremism has gotten exponentially worse. The power struggles and power plays are now getting more extreme and costly to the whole. Now there is no taking prisoners or giving anyone a chance to show a centrist view, that ended on the Dem side with the GOP going after Clinton and the extremists on the left saying Clinton was to centrist. It ended on the GOP side when Bush I worked with Congress and did what was necessary to better the nation and not just his party's extreme.

Look at the best selling political philosophy authors.... name a centrist MOORE???? BECK??? LIMBAUGH???? COULTER???? FRANKEN???? There isn't one because the extremists on BOTH sides silence the centrists.

Both sides are determined and have made people take sides... and the goal again is not to better the nation as a whole, not to help the people as a whole, not to move us forward in the right direction but to keep us divided and at odds so that they can continue gaining more power and not have to give it up in compromise that would better the whole and not just their niche.

In the end... the extremists on both want the same exact thing, it's just the sugar coating that they use to get the votes they need. They want absolute power. The nation and people be damned.

So wait, you're talking unnecesary losses, yet you want him to make a decision in "a few day or a week" on sending in more troops. You can't see that making a reactionary decision as you would like will cause the other to happen? More lives and wounded, holy fuck pan, W basically forgot about Afghanistan for what 5 years once he started his adventure in Iraq, where was this emotion from you then? On holidays? In the bathroom? I didn't hear it then, yet now it's all ranting and raving. You can say you were against the war from day one all you like, the fact is you only started pissing and moaning about troop losses, and dumping troops there recently, why's that pan?
You were sayignt his before the election, remember your Rev. Wright thread, so it's nothing new, although I do find it interesting that you piss and moan in that thread so much about the man, yet in the end you vote for him, now that is laughable.
You're not looking for debate, just as your not looking for common ground, but again you're too blinded by emotion to see that, on one page you say
Yet what have you done to find this middle ground pan? Not a fuckin thing, nada, zip, zilch, sweet fuck all. All you want to do is piss and moan and you expect us to just eat up everything you say as being true and a fact, when in reality, you have no clue what you're on about. Oh and Baraka isn't insulting your 'views' by not showing you these falsehoods pan, he just doesn't want to waste his time, when we all know you're just going to rant again, as for opening your stance, that is laughable, it'll never happen, you.

---------- Post added at 09:54 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:51 AM ----------

Again here's the middle ground, I'll do this in a way you'll understand with capitals as you always do
YOU'RE DOING NOTHING TO FIND COMMON GROUND ON ANYTHING, YOU SAY ONE THING THEN DO ANOTHER, IT'S POINTLESS TO EVEN ATTEMPT ANYTHING WITH YOU.

Pan....I think this pretty much sums it up for many here.

It is hard to take you seriously as a centrist. IMO, you are an extremist or at the very least, your rhetoric is. This is not meant to be insulting, but simply a personal observation.

Just as I am sure that others here would say the same about me.

So, we'll all keep ranting, some at a more emotional level, and less factually based, than others.

Change results from real-life experiences and commitments, not rants on a message board.

Shall I pull a Host and bring out more?

If you cannot honestly engage, or engage with respect why comment other than to try to look superior?

If you are superior and this "RANT" thread is beneath you why reply at all?
Go ahead. You may find I may bring a more respectful discourse to yours than you have to mine.

I would argue for bank regulation because it is needed.

Using the old excuse doesn't work for me anymore. Here in the state of OHIO, they are cracking down on the parents to provide insurance to the kids. If you pay child support you better also provide insurance, even if it bankrupts you. (I know from personal experience.)

The extreme are using that excuse to push through a healthcare bill that will NOT work, except to see people fined and imprisoned.

Partially correct, it is BOTH the leadership and the people's fault. But the extremist Dems are in power and they like the extremist GOP will never admit fault. Blame the people and opposing side, it's easier and keeps up the division.

That explains the people's fault but let's look at a totally out of control spending government that allows out product to be taxed overseas into non competition but refuses to tax imports to this country enough to level the playing field.

Let's look at a country that has regulated and made so many laws it is nearly impossible to manufacture anything here without taking losses because the countries we allow to import to us don't have to play by the same rules and thus can produce the same product more cheaply. Hell, we even allow in toys loaded with lead, poisoned pet food and clothing made in sweatshops. But that's not government's fault... no they can demand our companies be responsible while manufacturing here, but go overseas and import it back and we don't care how you made it or what's in it.

Let's look at a government that taxes it's people 3-4-5-6 times but still overspends.

Let's look at how the parties are run by extremists who refuse to allow centrists any say.

Don't sit there living in another country and tell me what is wrong in my yard. I live it, I see it and unfortunately, until people say enough... the extremists will have their way.

America is always easy to bash for people who don't live here and understand what our freedoms allow us. Sometimes they blow up in our face and we learn from them... well we did in the past now, we just cave to extremists on the side that we don't blame the current explosion on.

As I pointed out, there are several government economic indicators that have been rising in recent months

The private Conference Board leading economic indicators have also shown six consecutive months of positive change.
The Conference Board uses 10 economic indicators and six`or more have been showing improvement every month for six months.

Most economists have suggested that there have been significant economic improvements since January.

We can debate how much of that is attributable to the stimulus package and/or other policies....you cant ignore the indicators completely or just cherry pick jobs/unemployment data.

Every economists will tell you that jobs are the lagging indicator and the last to recover from a recession.

You live in one state, you see what happens in one state, you get your information on the others the exact same way those of who live in other countries do pan, so that 'you don't live here, don't tell me how it is' doesn't fly at all. You keep talking about extremeists, yet to me, and probably a few other here, you're one of them
Oh yeah, then if people in other countries can't tell you how it is, then why do so many Americans feel compelled to bash our healthcare here in Canada? By your reasoning they should just shut up. It would make for an awfully boring board if only people from the countries of the person with the OP could post in it.
No one has disrespected you here, you have to understand, saying one thing out of one side of your mouth, then something else out of the other, gets old rather quickly, that's most likely what's annoying people about your 'rant'. You star ta thread in politics, and try to call it a rant, you can expect people here are going to call you on the crap.

I did complain about W's handling of the war...look in the archives... but that doesn't fill your purpose does it?

As I have stated, there are only 2 true options that may save lives over there right now... (can't do anything about the past now can we, except ignore that the person we are bitching at was against the war and talking about how poorly run it was... but again, that doesn't serve your purpose)

1) END IT

2) Send more troops over.


Yes I was. He has had a past where his character showed that he chose to hang around and listen to radicals and extremists. I was against the man for that from day one. Character does matter. If I ran for office and I went to a church where the pastor preached white supremacy and hatred of America then continued to go there for 20+ years (Rev. Wright).... I would expect people to be slightly disgusted speak out and not attack them for their views.

If I ran for office and chose as close friends people who bombed buildings and preached hatred (Bill Ayers)..... I would expect people to be slightly disgusted and speak out and not attack them for their views.

If I chose a corrupt financier with ties to terror financing (Tony Rezko)... I would expect people to be slightly disgusted and speak out and not attack them for their views.

If I had a past that was truly hazy and lined with having affiliations with groups and people that were considered radical and had voiced hatred for this nation and spoke how great these groups and people were ( the New Black Panthers, Hamas, Socialist Party USA, Illinois Communist Party, Raul Castro, Louis Farrakhan, RailaOrdinga, Daniel Ortega and so on)... I would expect people to be slightly disgusted and speak out and not attack them for their views.

You combine all of the above... and I would expect people to be slightly disgusted and speak out and not attack them for their views. I would also expect to lose and the only way I could see winning would be if the other side was so self destructive and scared to truly use any of this that I could win.

But my pointing allthis out last year made me racist, a GOP lap dog, radical and so on.

Then when I would say anything in defense... YOU being one of the prime offenders would tell me I was trying to come off as a victim and make it all about myself.


Well not even a year into his presidency and we (except the extremists who would support him no matter what he did) see in his actions and speech, maybe there was something to all that.


You're not looking for debate, just as your not looking for common ground, but again you're too blinded by emotion to see that, on one page you say

I have asked to be shown where I have falsehoods, where is all this hyperbole, where is all this BS your side says my rant is filled with. I have stated I would be more than willing to hold legitimate debates if respect could be shown.... instead I get your response and responses that are little more than veiled personal attacks.

Again, this is pretty much why I have you on ignore. You offer nothing of substance or value, just attacks.

You can ask those whom I have debated here where we showed each other, that we learnt from each other. There is no learning from each other here, you only want to rehash past and make everything an attack... you bring no substance to debate, you wish to destroy the opposing views without having to do so. That just shows that the beliefs you have have no true substance except YOUR EMOTIONAL VALUE TO THEM... yet, you make me out to be the one controlled by my emotional thinking.

---------- Post added at 01:24 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:08 PM ----------

This is part of the problem. I can pull a Host and bring out just as much data from just as reliable sources showing that the economy is not going to get any better within the next year.

Then all we'll do is argue over who's information is less biased and so on. Meanwhile, things don't change.

That's the problem with government and the extremist parties we have right now.

They fight and argue and the country just gets worse and the division just gets greater.

No solutions to the problems, no compromises for the long term betterment of this nation and it's people.

It's all about winning and having power.

And in the end.... all that will be left is destruction. Power over the rubble I guess means more to the extremists than having led the nation back to greatness.

Such a shame.

Because in the end the quote I use from Lennon remains true:

Because if either side wasn't insane and worried solely about power instead of the people and the future.... there'd be debate, compromise and a unified vision to a better future.

---------- Post added at 01:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:24 PM ----------

I rest my case on the veiled personal attacks... well not so veiled... back to ignore you go Jay....

There's the victim act again, 'poor me, you offer nothing, just attack me boohoo'. If I offer nothing, you sure have responded to me quite a bit for someone who offers nothing.
You're not looking for debate, it's obvious to everyone but you, just like you're not looking for common ground, saying and doing are two different thing, and you're saying one thing, and doing another. You must understand pan, just because people disagree with you, doesn't mean it a 'veiled personal attack', but to you we're just supposed to eat up whatever you type.
Agan with the attack, show me these attacks you like to cry about, oh wait you can't because I haven't said anything against you personally, I've just attacked your misguided rant, there is a difference you know. Maybe you should put me totally on ignore, rather than just 'basically', then you can have your nice little rant and not be confronted by someone who calls you on what you type.
Again, show me these attacks you speak so freely of. My beliefs have no true substance? What do you know about my beliefs pan? I mean I'm 'basically on ignore'. You are controlled by emotional thinking, you've said one thing out of one side of your mouth, then the opposite out of the other so many times in this thread it's pathetic, you're just too, I don't know to see it. You like to play the victim a lot when someone calls you on anything you type, it's quite funny to read, all your threads in in 'poor me, they attacked me boohoo'. Have fun in your 'rant', maybe other here have the patience to deal with you, but mine are wearing thin, and this is pointless, you're not open to changing your mind at all, saying and doing are two different things.

I'll quote myself one last time, as you don't seem to understand:


---------- Post added at 11:39 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:34 AM ----------

What personal attack? If there is one, report it that's what this button is for.http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/images/...ons/report.gif
but you'd rather be the victim, oh poor me. pathetic. I'll even do it myself and report myself, as you won't, put me on ignore, I could care less, it would be the first time you've actually done something you said you'd do, unlike this common ground you preach of.

---------- Post added at 11:41 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:39 AM ----------

There you go pan, all reported for you......you're welcome.

I answer to show you that it is attacks all on your side.

Not in one sentence do you discuss or debate anything else but me.

I would rather watch you prove me correct but, I tire of this it drove me away once, not again.

I come for debate from people that will argue points of discussion not about me but about the views I have.

So, for this reason I will take your advice and report your reply.

I have debated the views you have, look at my posts in this thread, yet you tell me my posts 'have no substance', I 'being nothing to the discussion', and 'that's why you have me basically on ignore' so what is the point of me debating anything with you if you're so easy to dismiss my views? Seems rather pointless to me now doesn't it?
I reported it myself, so it doesn't matter to me, I know there was no attack there, it is quite obvious.
You pick one post in this thread, out of how many I made, and say it's 'all attacks on my side', how is that 'all'? How is that even ONE attack? There is no attack. You pick and choose to what suits you, I've debated you in this thread, it was going fine, until you played the victim card again, as usual. Pick and choose, pick and choose. I'm done with this thread anyways, it's pointless, I hope others have the patience, because I don't.