11-06-2009, 05:39 PM | #1 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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buy a $15000 dollar policy or go to jail
pelosi health care bill
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I know that i'll resist this on simple principal.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-07-2009, 05:23 AM | #3 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Article 1 Section 8 of your beloved Constitution: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes". That's pretty definitive. And last I looked, tax evasion was still a crime. So... What's the principle you'd resist this on?
Oh yeah, I remember: Democrats are doing it. Silly me. |
11-07-2009, 06:55 AM | #4 (permalink) |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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This is what happens when they try to craft a bill with insurance reforms like covering pre-conditions etc.. while trying to maintain the mostly private health insurance nature of our employer based system. The only way to keep rates from going up to pay the additional cost of the reforms is to force everyone to purchase a policy bringing in millions of new policy holders.
IMHO they should be proposing a single payer system that includes everyone but politically I guess it can't be done at this time. Those interested in keeping the status quo have bought the votes of too many of our politicians. |
11-07-2009, 07:26 AM | #5 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ohio
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To me there theory is that if more people are covered then the risk pool will be larger thus lowering insurance premiums for everyone. The problem with that is that the people who can't afford insurance now have no way to afford it once it's mandated that they must. So without some sort of public OPTION I can't see how this is going to be possible. Insurance companies aren't going to lower premiums out of the goodness of their hearts because they would go bankrupt if they did. So it seems like we are back to square one. I wouldn't be suprised if this bill fails miserably.
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"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it" |
11-07-2009, 10:39 AM | #7 (permalink) |
Young Crumudgeon
Location: Canada
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I was sort of wondering that myself. The only figure I see is 2.5%. I suppose if you make $600 000 per year that could be relevant, but if that's the case I think you can probably afford it.
__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame |
11-07-2009, 10:48 AM | #8 (permalink) | ||
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Which mentions 15k but doesn't state that's going to be the cost to a family. Pretty standard GOP tactic... when the facts aren't on your side scare the crap out of people. Either that or claim it will lead to gay marriage.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
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11-07-2009, 10:53 AM | #9 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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no, not even. one other thing: Article 1 Section 8 "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes" applies ONLY to paying for general welfare shit, NOT to give it to health insurance companies.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-07-2009, 10:59 AM | #10 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ohio
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[QUOTE=dksuddeth;2726151]I think slapping a 30,000 dollar tax or go to prison is more than justification enough. The congress can suck my ass because at this point, this 'tax' is not only excessive, but it's also 2/3rds of my annual income. So I guess it'd be great to have health insurance but be homeless. NOT HAPPENING!!!!! So yes, i'll resist and resist with every bit of violent force I can muster.
Dude, you can't seriously think that you are going to have to pay 30k in taxes. Not unless you make well over half a million a year...which you may I don't know. But if you think you're going to pay 2/3 of your income in taxes I don't know what to tell you other than that will never happen, nor is it even being remotely proposed.
__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it" |
11-07-2009, 11:01 AM | #11 (permalink) | ||
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Quote:
You didn't happen to read the relevant CBO statement did you? Quote:
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club Last edited by Tully Mars; 11-07-2009 at 11:07 AM.. |
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11-07-2009, 11:26 AM | #12 (permalink) |
Young Crumudgeon
Location: Canada
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According to those guidelines, one might end up paying over $30 000. Y'know, if one makes $250 000 or more per year. So, not quite as stunningly rich, but still pretty damn well-to-do.
I want your job, dk. For the record, I think mandating insurance without including some sort of public option is a horrible idea, as well. Fortunately I have a commie single-payer system to fall back on, so I don't have to worry about it. But let's try to keep things relevant to the discussion, here. Scare-mongering just makes you look foolish.
__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame |
11-07-2009, 11:29 AM | #13 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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No, but having now read it and applying the percentages they state in the report, I can expect to pay nearly 6,000 on a 'tax' to buy a mandatory health insurance policy. On an already tight budget where I scramble to pay an electric bill every month. Nice.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-07-2009, 11:38 AM | #14 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ohio
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I'm curious, do you have insurance now? If so is it employer paid, or do you own an individual policy for you and your wife?
__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it" |
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11-07-2009, 11:38 AM | #15 (permalink) | |
Her Jay
Location: Ontario for now....
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I bet the next cost will be 100 million dollars coming from the repubs, that'll scare the crap out people.
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Absence makes the heart grow fonder |
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11-07-2009, 12:45 PM | #16 (permalink) |
Psycho
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I dunno but I have a feeling if the Republicans was trying to do this most here would be up in arms but since it originated with the Democrats it's ok.
I hope soon we all start looking past this Democrat/Republican shit and realize we are all in this together. There is some middle class people that aren't going to be able to afford this bill. Especially the one's that are right above the imaginary line that is undoubtedly drawn in the sand between the full government ride and the one's that can "afford" it. Another point to make is 6 weeks ago the insurance companies was the bad guys of this debate and now we see they have their hands all over it. Not only have they managed to mandate everyone have auto insurance now they have weaseled health insurance out of everyone. Not to mention that promise "not raising taxes on people making less than $200,000 a year" huh?
__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it." Thomas Jefferson |
11-07-2009, 01:21 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Alien Anthropologist
Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana
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"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB Last edited by hunnychile; 11-07-2009 at 01:30 PM.. |
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11-07-2009, 01:37 PM | #18 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I've got my healthcare down to about $2,400 a year now thanks to a bit of creative accounting, but the deductibles are quite high. If anyone's having serious trouble, PM me and I might be able to offer some suggestions.
Healthcare should only be compulsory if it's universal. Passing a corrupted "public option" and then mandating coverage is a gift to the insurance companies and a slap in the face to everyone that can't afford it. |
11-07-2009, 01:58 PM | #19 (permalink) | |
Young Crumudgeon
Location: Canada
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Regarding comparisons of healthcare in various countries (including comparison of single payer systems with the current US healthcare structure), we've discussed that here extensively in the past and I have no particular interest in revisiting the subject. If you're interested in that sort of thing, I might suggest starting here.
__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame |
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11-07-2009, 02:33 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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11-07-2009, 03:45 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Easy Rider
Location: Moscow on the Ohio
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I am tired of hearing the rhetoric from some proponents of this bill who say, "If you like your current insurance, you can keep it, but if you are not happy with it you can purchase it elsewhere". This only applies to the small percentage who do not get their insurance through their employer. |
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11-07-2009, 04:38 PM | #22 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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I have no insurance right now. unaffordable. The wife has lost hers because it can no longer be paid for due to other circumstances. With a serious pre-existing condition, high risk pool would make it even more expensive.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
11-07-2009, 04:55 PM | #23 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ohio
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I truely am sorry for that. Does she not qualify for social security disability?
__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it" |
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11-07-2009, 05:01 PM | #24 (permalink) |
░
Location: ❤
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DK, I sort of remember you mentioning that your wife might need to seek
help through Medicare. I had to go the Social Security disability route to qualify, and it was not an easy path, but doable. I'm kind of stuck now living on $758.00 dollars a month, (I'm 50 yrs.old and single) but the Medicare coverage I consider worth it, as flawed as the current sytem is. I know I'm not really addressing the OP, but I just wanted to say, I know the stressors involved with having someone you love needing care, and wondering how and if it's going to happen. I wish you and your wife all the best. These are difficult times indeed. |
11-07-2009, 05:06 PM | #25 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I don't feel like it'd be appropriate for me to argue what I see as the best answer for the medical industry by using DK's wife in my illustration.
What I can say is that I sincerely hope she gets better and you guys are able to get into a better situation. |
11-07-2009, 05:28 PM | #28 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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she does, hopefully. we've had lawyers working on it for about 9 months now. we're also hoping to get her on medicare as quickly as possible.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
11-08-2009, 04:39 AM | #30 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Well having fought with an insurance company to the point where I had to hire an attorney to get them to pay claims they were clearly responsible for under my policy I truly and honestly feel for you and hope she's gets on SS disability and medicare. But after reading your posts it really sounds like you're absolutely and completely against any socialized national health care program... which is exactly what medicare is. I read many of your posts and it seems you hate the federal government and want it to stay completely out of your life. It fact you often state you're willing to take up arms against the federal government. So why would you sign up for a national federal health care program? Seems to go against all your principles.
__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
11-08-2009, 06:43 AM | #31 (permalink) | |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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dk, while I honestly wish for the best for you and your wife, it sure seems like your mouth and your feet are headed in opposite directions on this one. Will you please speak to that? |
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11-08-2009, 09:47 AM | #32 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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For the record I received a PM from DK detailing some info he would prefer to remain private. Understandable given the situation. The health of a loved one is a very private matter. I can respect that. But I think the issues and questions being asked could be addressed without discussing any private information.
I think it would be nice if DK could take some time to explain his logic. Cause I'm still lost on it. Honestly DK's posts remind me of a neighbor I once had who campaigned against a local fire dept bond measure. The measure failed and a couple years later his barn burned down. Then he bitched it took the fire dept. too long to respond... duh, their tanker truck was over 30yrs old and about half of their radios didn't work.
__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
11-09-2009, 11:08 AM | #33 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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for those wishing to hear an explanation or clarification from me, here goes. I believe most people on here know my political stances as Libertarian. This does not make me an anarchist, nor does it make me an anti-government person. What this means is that I am 'limited' government, as the founders intended. The more you allow government to control things, the more they control you and the events in your life. Now, some people have no problem with this governmental control in their lives, but I do. It's been a repeated event in history that the more power you give a government, the more of your freedom you end up surrendering.
That being said, I'm finding myself in between the rock and the hard place with the health care reform. The authoritarians on here want government to intervene and control prices of medical care so that it's affordable for all involved. I believe this is the wrong way to reform health care. I also am having to face the prospect of resignedly participating in a government health care program for the private reasons as discussed earlier. Does this mean, to some here, that I should willingly accept a socialized health reform program because I may be coerced in to having to participate? If so, i'm sorry to inform you that it doesn't. I don't know what else to really say except that my mixed emotions about this whole episode in my life, and my spouses life, have probably resulted in an even further positioning of my ideologies. Some would probably call it extreme. So be it. I do know for certain that the mandate or prison portion has solidified my resolve. I will not submit. I will resist by any means necessary. most of you will not want to understand that position. That's a shame for you. At some point in your lives, you will unfortunately realize that you surrendered too much liberty, too freely, and will be too late to do anything about it.
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
11-09-2009, 11:34 AM | #34 (permalink) |
I Confess a Shiver
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If a DK falls in the woods and no one is around to hear him... does he utter anti-government my-cold-dead-hands sentiment?
Red Dawn Law: If a thread mentions the U.S. Constitution, there is a 75% chance it will involve white men blithering about armed rebellion. ... No, seriously... this talk of sensational .01% scenarios is about as campy as the script of The Day After Tomorrow. The numbers are FOX-o-Vision wishy-washy and the aforementioned penalty structure simply represents a typical legal action buffer window. You say you'll do X if they don't follow The Plan, but you'll really only go as far as G. Law school - bargaining 101. ... I hope nobody gets shot up during the rebellion... they should know they can't afford the medical bills. ... You mean our tax dollars are required for services like police, fire, EMS, and DoT?! Inconceivable! Last edited by Plan9; 11-09-2009 at 12:12 PM.. |
11-09-2009, 12:15 PM | #35 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ohio
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I do know for certain that the mandate or prison portion has solidified my resolve. I will not submit. I will resist by any means necessary. most of you will not want to understand that position. That's a shame for you. At some point in your lives, you will unfortunately realize that you surrendered too much liberty, too freely, and will be too late to do anything about it.[/QUOTE]
While I'm sympathetic to your situation, this statement is rediculous. You aren't going to purchase insurance, nor are you going to pay the tax associated with not purchasing insurance? And how will that in any way help your situation? Having principles is all well and good until they directly harm your family and loved ones. Are you really going to punish your wife because you don't believe in this legislation?
__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it" |
11-09-2009, 12:20 PM | #36 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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I think where some see governmental control other s see governmental assistance.
People aren't good and evil, nor is the government. My daughter is currently serving in the US Coast Guard. Last summer she participated in 14 at sea rescues in the Gulf of Mexico. She's no longer at that station and is assigned to shore duty. But I like the fact that if I'm at sea in the US coastal waters and have a problem I know I can radio the Coast Guard and they'll do their damnedest to come help me. I like my tax dollars going to such efforts. My parents are both on medicare. I like that they have health insurance they can afford. I think everyone should have such coverage. That said there's a bevy of other uses of my tax dollars I'd prefer to see used differently then they are being currently.
__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
11-09-2009, 01:41 PM | #37 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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Thanks for not whitewashing the conflict, dk, and I do get the moral agita it causes you.
However, to have it further dig your heels in is counter-intuitive and, from my perspective, regrettable. I would think it would embolden you to go to work for others in your situation, not to harden your stance that such people get further screwed. But then maybe I'm a pragmatist and you're an idealist. |
11-09-2009, 02:01 PM | #38 (permalink) | |||
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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In reality, it's very easy to know what the founders intended, for those with the intellectual honesty and integrity to actually READ the debate papers, federalist papers, and anti-federalist papers. It also helps to read essays from constitutional scholars that were produced in the 10-20 years AFTER the ratification. I know that's too hard for some people to do because that would put an end to their agenda, but that's just how it is. Quote:
---------- Post added at 04:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:51 PM ---------- Quote:
__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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11-09-2009, 02:08 PM | #39 (permalink) |
I Confess a Shiver
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Wait, why are they going to consider your death necessary? One man and over a few thousand dollars? GTFO.
This is rich. You don't see mercenaries with Visa or Mastercard patches doing drive-bys in suburbia, do you? Next thing you'll be trying to convince us is that the IRS has roving death squads in middle class America. Last edited by Plan9; 11-09-2009 at 02:11 PM.. |
11-09-2009, 02:14 PM | #40 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ohio
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[/COLOR]
My wife stands solidly behind my principles, so she is not being punished. I'm sure lots and lots of progressives are going to call myself and those who think like me ridiculous, or other less polite names, and that's fine. At some point, the progressives are either going to consider my death or imprisonment 'necessary' in order to continue their totalitarian agenda or they will have to reconsider what they are doing when enough of us are killed in the process of their enforcement. Either way, I stood by my principles while you live with my blood on your hands.[/QUOTE] Are there any taxes you are for? if so what are they? The punishment for not paying any tax is a fine or inprisonment, so I really have no idea what you are objecting to. The governmet uses tax dollars for all sorts of things that I feel are unnecessary, but not paying my taxes puts me in jail and for no good reason. They aren't going to change their minds simply because I didn't pay my taxes. And an armed revolution against the US army is beyond absurd, you will be dead in minutes, again for no good reason. You will be labeled a nutcase finatic like the mcvey's of the country and no change would come about.
__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it" |
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