rahl

I'd like to take a break from obama if I may and talk about an issue in my state of Ohio.

Issue 3 is for casino gambling in Ohio. Issue 3: Casinos back on the ballot in Ohio

What are your thoughts? Do you have this in your state? If so has it helped the economy there or hurt it?

I personally think this is a great thing for ohio. Since west virginia passed table gaming, alot of their business is coming from ohio residents. It doesn't make sense to me to have all that revenue leaving the state. It will create jobs and be a huge source of tax revenue.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Derwood

as an Ohio resident, I've been inundated with the ads, both for and against this. I'm not sure what to think. The opposition says that the casinos won't be taxed appropriately (which seems unlikely.....states will tax the shit out of everything they can) and that the casinos will put other businesses out of business (I've heard no support for this position).

The pro side says that they will generate a ton of tax revenue for the state and create 30,000+ jobs.

At this point, I'd probably vote in favor of them in November. Maybe I can take up a new career as a poker dealer

rahl

The cons I've heard are that the casino's aren't required to hire ohio workers. I'm not sure you can mandate something like that. Most of the upper level jobs will have to be experienced workers(pit bosses, casino managers etc) but there will be a large amount of other jobs like dealing, cocktail waitresses, security and such

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Derwood

right, and that argument is somehow implying (falsely) that these casinos would be actively looking to hire non-Ohio residents. How does that make any sense (particularly in Columbus, which is 2 hours in any direction from the state border)?

rahl

It doesn't make any sense. I think the opposition doesn't have a leg to stand on, other than a religious aspect perhaps, so they have to scare ohioans into thinking that there's gonna be 30,000 people shipped here from vegas.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Cimarron29414

Well, my short answer is that casinos would create jobs and tax revenue streams for Ohio. Leave the morals of gambling to the people gambling.

A more important question is this: Why do people from Ohio insist on driving in the fast lane at exactly 1 MPH over the speed limit and REFUSE to move to the right lane until they get to Myrtle Beach?

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Derwood

THANK YOU

so true

ASU2003

So why would an unemployed dealer from Atlantic City or Las Vegas not move to Ohio for a job. And why would the new casinos want to hire some unemployed, untrained current Ohioan when they are getting resumes from people who know what they are doing and have years of experience?

Then again, they will have to move to Ohio and become Ohioans and pay income taxes and sales taxes. It will also help some construction workers in the big cities.

But I don't think they will do that much. I would look at how the casinos in Detroit effected that city.

rahl

In my opinion, people who want to gamble are going to gamble. If they can just cross the state line and do it, and all that money is bleeding out of the state, then why not just let them do it in Ohio?

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Cimarron29414

This is why S.C. got the lottery. They didn't want it, but were losing too much money to N.C. and Ga.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Derwood

I've done some more reading on the issue, and I'm starting to see why so many oppose this.

The details:

- The amendment was more or less written by the two groups who would be opening the casinos

- The licensing fee they would pay to open their casinos would be $50 million. Nearby states charge up to 10x as much.

- The casinos would only pay 33% on gross profits. Nearby states tax over 50%.

- The amendment ties Ohio casino laws in with other states, meaning if Michigan adds new types of table games to their casinos, they automatically get added in Ohio.

- On the flip side, the amendment protects Ohio casinos from other states removing games.


So this doesn't seem to be much different than Exxon/Mobil writing a piece of environmental legislation or Halliburton proposing new military spending

pan6467

As an Ohio resident and recovering compulsive gambler I'm voting yes. I made a choice to allow gambling to take over my life and at one time destroy it, but alcoholics do the same and alcohol is still legal. The fact is only 2 - 5% of the population becomes compulsively addicted to gambling. When I gambled, I went out of state, didn't matter I found it.

There are these "skill games" popping up all over that aren't regulated and aren't really taxed because they get shut down for illegal gaming eventually and the owners pay a small fine and open a new place three blocks away. Again, those aren't regulated and are far more harmful than a casino that is regulated will ever be.

Ohio, could have gotten those licensing fees 10 years ago, today the state is lucky to get $50 million or 33% tax.

Why?

- EVERY STATE AROUND US HAS GAMBLING. They don't get casinos here not a big loss people in Ohio will still go to Detroit, West Virginia, Indiana, Niagra, etc. The casinos won't lose a dime.... Ohio will, those tax dollars, that revenue that helps area businesses will be gone to other states.

- 33% tax is a HUGE draw for bigger better casinos than neighboring states. This may actually help us pull in out of state gamblers. If I'm Harrah's and I pay 50+% in taxes in Indiana and can move from a dive city like Lawrenceburg to Cleveland and have a Lakefront casino where I pay less in taxes... I'm going to do it. I'll even help build a convention center and develop the lakefront... in the end my bottom line will be greater. The state and Cleveland also profit from this.

Lower taxes used to draw business is nothing new.

So what? It's all about regulating and making sure the games are run fairly. Not what games are played. The casinos business is to make sure the games they offer not only make them money but draw people in to play them. If a Detroit casino comes up with this great game and people flock to play it... the casinos here better be able to offer that game or they may lose business to that city up north.

You can't really do that because there are other factors, unemployment, the destruction of the auto industry, etc.

Same with Atlantic City... it was a town that once was great but before gambling it was horrendous...

Those who say gambling destroyed those cities forget what those cities were like before gambling. BUT those casinos have helped those cities and states bring in tourist dollars, tax revenue and helped benefit the residents of the ENTIRE state.

Over 1/2 of the states already have casinos, so an out of work dealer has far more choices than just Ohio. Plus, the rate of turnover in the business is pretty high. Training is not an issue. There are schools that can teach dealing in no time and the casinos usually recruit from those.

I didn't see many Vegas dealers flock to Peoria, Lawrenceburg, Detroit, Windsor, Biloxi, and so on. I just don't see this massive influx of unemployed Vages dealers coming to Ohio.

And so what if they do? That means more apartments get rented, more houses get sold, more tax revenue (because you still have more people working), more groceries being sold, and so on.

So in reality no matter where the workers come from in sate or elsewhere, it is still going to help the economy.

And who should have written it? It doesn't matter who wrote it if it works and helps produce tax revenue. Casinos will beyond a shadow of a doubt increase tax revenue immensely in a state that is bankrupt and bleeds that tax revenue to every other state around us that has casinos.

So there you have it. The scare tactics are bunk. This maybe Ohio's last chance. The casinos really don't care because they make their money from Ohioans crossing state lines.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

Who should have written it is a neutral 3rd party. You don't think the casino owners wrote themselves an amendment that would greatly favor themselves over the state? This is the equivalent of Exxon writing oil legislation or Chase writing bank regulations

pan6467

What exactly do you oppose IN the amendment? Or are you just opposed to it because of who wrote it?

Ohio Casino Initiative, Issue 3 (2009) - Ballotpedia

Where does it say ONLY Harrah's can own and operate Ohio casino's? Nowhere.

In fact knowing that there can be only 4 casinos, there actually maybe a bidding war for the rights and that would only benefit the state.

I really do not see anything in that amendment that hurts the state in any way, unless you are just opposed to gambling period.

Let's look at some of the people opposed, shall we:

Yeah they just wanted a bigger piece of the pie. If the casino were in Youngstown they'd be 100% for it.

This would hurt his income in his W. Va and Pa casinos. Plus, he's also a big backer for Gov. Strickland's proposal of putting slots in the racetracks... which would be more of a monopoly than the proposed amendment would be. Why would Jacobs want this? because then HE would make money at his racetrack with the slots there.

What "loophole"? The posting above is the amendment show me where there is a "loophole".

Wait you mean this?

Cash wagers wouldn't be taxed, casino foes say | Columbus Dispatch Politics

I'm sorry, every casino I have EVER been to pays it's slots off in tokens, you need chips to play at the table, and so on.

And let us look at who "pointed out" this loophole....

Truthpac.... and who has donated 95% of Truthpac's money? Jeff Jacobs... and who is Jeff Jacobs???? Why the man whose W. Va and Pa casinos would be hurt and possible slot revenue at Scioto Downs by the passing of this amendment.

So, to me it looks like those opposed are planning to make more on this amendment's failure than those who wrote the amendment hoping it will pass.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

Pan, there is no bidding war for the casinos. The owners/operators are already in place, and those individuals/groups are the ones who proposed the casino amendment.

pan6467

Who are they? I have heard of 3 different casino/gaming companies wanting to build in Cleveland only one can why would the other 2 even be trying?

Dan Gilbert is the main proponent but he is NOT affiliated with ANY casino that I know of, if you do, please let me know.

Harrah's bought Thistledown and has been mentioned as wanting to put a casino in Cleveland if this passes.

Steve Wynn has even shown interest.

The amendment does not say anywhere that only certain companies could build the casinos. In fact, the amendment reads:

Once that commission is formed they may decide by law who or how they license to.

Again nice scare tactic, but no fact behind it.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

Also, the amendment would outlaw any table games in Ohio that are NOT at casinos. that means I can't hold a Texas Hold Em' tournament for charity.

---------- Post added at 05:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------


It doesn't matter, Gilbert (and the other group, whose name escapes me) are the ones buying the initial casino licenses (for a song....$50 Million. they could turn around and sell them to someone else for 10x that).

pan6467

And those "skill game" places get closed down for good. I'm sure there will be charity Texas Hold 'Em games, if not and you want to worry about charity... go play in one of the casinos and donate your winnings to charity.

That is pure desperation trying to find reasons against it.
Penn Gaming... is the other group.

They MAY BE the ones buying the initial licenses... again the Commission will decide who buys them.

Besides by the amendment itself $50 mill is ONLY for the license once granted the license they have to

So, that's a $300 mil investment they HAVE to make or lose the license and someone else will get it.

I seriously doubt Penn or Gilbert will buy a license for $50 Mil, make a $250 mil investment and then turn around and sell that casino... and so what if they do? The state made money and will be making money instead of LOSING money to surrounding states.

It amazes me when people get desperate to the point of trying to scare people that some rich guy may get richer by selling his casino license... big fucking deal.... MONEY WILL STAY IN OHIO NOT LEAVE IT AND THAT'S THE BOTTOM LINE.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

so what if they do? If they wanted to open a casino in PA or WV or IN they'd have to spend a ton more money, that's the problem. You seem to argue that Ohio is getting SOME money, so why complain that Ohio is getting WAY WAY LESS money than most other states do?

pan6467

Because the gold rush is OVER. This is about the ONLY way we will get casinos here. WE MISSED THE FUCKING BOAT 10 years ago. We have a chance to get a piece of the action, get it in the right hands and maybe, just maybe improve Ohio a bit. If this doesn't pass, I can guarantee the deals to get casinos here will be a lot less money.

What part of they are making their money off Ohioans in other states DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?????? We are bleeding that tax revenue, this very well could be our last chance to get legit casinos and grab onto that revenue. Our state is going bankrupt, our public colleges are on average the most expensive to attend, our school systems are failing, our roads are falling apart, industry is being taxed the Hell out of this state, unemployment in this state is at all time highs and you're worried about who owns the casinos that will bring in tax revenue and jobs??????

WOW!!!!!!

When you come up with a better plan to get that revenue or ANY FUCKING revenue in this once great proud state you let me know and I'll campaign for you. Until then.... we pass this or this state gets worse taxing more industries out of it, taxing those who can afford to move out and leaving only those too poor to move or so rich they can afford to find loopholes to pay fewer taxes than the poor schlub that can't afford to move out.

BTW, the MGM and Greektown had similar deals in Detroit. Why??? because they were going up against Casinos right across the border in Windsor. Detroit got tired of that sucking of their tax revenue... did it help the city? Probably but it wasn't the end all to their problems. Just as these won't be for us but they will help maybe enough to ease taxes on industries getting taxed out, to the people who live here watching taxes go up.... Listening to Dan Gilbert, I truly believe he may actually have a plan to revitalize Cleveland and if he can do that then why not give him the chance. Otherwise, we may find he refuses to sign LeBron and wants to move the Cavs out of Cleveland and put them in a city that will allow him to revitalize it.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

settle down, sparky, I'm just offering some rebuttal

Stare At The Sun

Not to threadjack but...

If you want to break the law by speeding, why would you care about passing on the right?

Can't get mad at people for being more law abiding than you.

And before you say it, no, you can't get a ticket for going to speed limit or 1 over in the fast lane.

sapiens

I view gambling as a tax on the poor/ignorant/entertained.

Derwood

I thought that was the lottery

pan6467

I'm sorry if I am coming across as angry. Actually, I was quite enjoying the debate. I am in the process of quitting smoking (yesterday was day 1) and this discussion truly helped keep my mind active and off cigs.

---------- Post added at 02:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:55 AM ----------

The same reason people going 90 think they own the road and everyone else should bow to them.

I very rarely have this problem. Most cars go between 5-10 over the speed limit in the left lane, I have no problem with that. I usually do right around 10 over because, I cannot afford the ticket and insurance rate hike it would bring.

What pisses me off is when I'll be going 10 over, there are cars in the right lane I'm passing and some jerk gets on my ass and tries to push me to go faster. It pisses me off to the point I'll slow down to the speed the traffic on the right is going and not let the guy behind me pass. Why should I move over and slow down to accommodate him? I'm sorry, 10 mph over the speed limit is just fine for me... we're both breaking the law technically I just choose not to go further so go f yourself..... sorry nicotine withdrawal.. got carried away....

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

The Dispatch had several pages this morning on Issue 3 (including op-eds from several other Ohio newspapers).

It seems to boil down to this:

PRO - New jobs, keep gambling spending in state, boost to tax base for state

CONS - Constitutional amendments should not be used to give people monopolies on business, boost to economy would be marginal (as people would shift their discretionary spending away from other things in order to gamble), new jobs would be low paying/temporary, some Ohioans would still gamble out of state.

The thing that stuck out to me the most was the first "con". I absolutely agree that Constitutional amendments should not be written in order to benefit very specific people/businesses. This sets a terrible precedent. It's also telling that in one of Ohio's previous attempts to legalize state gambling, Penn Gaming campaigned AGAINST the amendment (because the proposed casino would provide competition with on of their Indiana based casinos). Now Penn Gaming is FOR the amendment, as they are one of two groups (Dan Gilbert being the other) who get exclusive rights to open casinos per the amendment.

pan6467

The only negative I have with it is it is an amendment... other than that... obviously no problem and that 1 issue won't stop me for voting for it.

Again, just because they lead the charge... it doesn't mean that Penn and Gilbert will 100% get those casinos. The commission has the right to license and regulate... so they could theoretically do a double cross and license someone else entirely.

I do understand limiting the number of casinos though. Too many and you'll end up with bankrupt eyesores like in Detroit. I'd rather just have one super nice one in Cleveland than a string of low end dives. (Not that I'll go into one, but the nicer it is the more tourist money that might be spent.)

As for Toledo getting one, I see it going somewhere by Sandusky and Cedar Point getting involved somehow.

Cincy's will probably be the last built and end up by Mason's King's Island (which is owned by Cedar Fair, CP's parent company) and them getting involved somehow.

In Cleveland, I see Harrah's opening it by Thistledown, which I think would be a mistake. They need to truly develop that lakefront and make it into something nice and pleasant for tourists. This will be the first one built.

I see the one in Columbus ending up being owned or operated by Jacobs and out by Scioto Downs. The reason I say this is Jacobs and his ties with the Dispatch owning Wolfe family and the Plain Dealer will eventually help Gilbert and Penn politically.
.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ASU2003

Do they have a plan for how many Casinos they will build and where they will be yet? I could see them building one by Cedar Point, but Toledo seems like it would be too close to Detroit and Windsor.

If they built one in the Mason area, that would be a better place than by the other casinos in the nearby states close to Cincinnati.

Derwood

The articles keep saying Toledo, Cincy, Cleveland, Columbus

ASU2003

But do they mean downtown? The run-down areas? The high class modern areas? The race tracks (I've heard this before)? Do they have any plans yet? Is it just one casino per city as well?

I'm just wondering if they will start construction next week, or if there are 6-12 months of designing, approvals, and other planning stages to go through before they start.

Derwood

the nay-sayers aren't convinced that the casinos will be built at all.

I know that in Columbus they have started tearing down some old warehouses in preparation (hope?) that it will be built there. The area is (I believe) in the vicinity of downtown and the Short North/Arena District

pan6467

I think Columbus and Cleveland's will be built almost immediately. They spent too much money to get this. Cincy's and Toledo's will be debated and we will be told that they have to go to Mason and Sandusky, this will be heavily lobbied for by Cedar Fair (either publicly or through insiders forming a PAC).

Trust me Cedar Fair I am sure is looking at getting them as close as possible to help their parks and it would make sense to build them close by as it would only help tourism.

Inside Cincy itself there really isn't much room to build one. Toledo, is well... Toledo, too close to Detroit, but Sandusky isn't that far and would draw those people in.

IF the casino people and state do not see how this is probably their best option, and do build in Cincy and Toledo, those casinos will probably fail.

The one thing everyone needs to understand (especially the government) is that these casinos are just a band aid and desperately needed quick fix. We need to take the tax monies and license fees and so on, invest them into small businesses and industry, lower the burden on the people, by lowering their taxes and lower our college tuitions.

We'll have about a 5 - 10 year window where we will be able to direct that casino money into long term growth. IF we do not, if we allow out government to just squander that money... in 5 - 10 years we'll be in the same place we are now, wondering where the tax money and cuts are going to come from to balance the state's budget.

Is it a gamble, is it a risk? Yes, but one we cannot afford to not take.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

rahl

I'm out of town on business and can't find out if it passed. Help me out?

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

pan6467

It passed..... 53 - 47%: It went big in the Northeast and Southwest and up in the Toledo area (probably why they named Toledo as a casino city to get those votes, they made the difference.) The rest of the state was divided just enough to have it passed.

ENR - Map

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

I fully expect some Ohio legislators to challenge Issue 3 and draw out the process.

pan6467

They already have along with Jacobs and the Family people.... they plan to legislate and challenge the issue in courts. How they can challenge the AMENDMENT in courts is beyond me.

It's truly sad though, when it goes their way "it's the voice of the people".... Now that it has swung the other way it's "FUCK WHAT THE PEOPLE WANT" Crybabies... especially (I only run "charity" poker tournaments) Jacobs.. It's ok for these unregulated, illegal "skill game" places to be on every street, why isn't that Family group demanding they be shut down and why are they in bed with Jacobs when last time it was Jacobs who had the issue up????? FUCKING HYPOCRITES!!!!!!!

This is just a sign of what today's America is about, Fuck what the people vote for and want, we'll find ways to clog up the courts, spend billions in courts and lobbying congress people and make sure the will of the people never gets seen and our agenda gets pushed through without the people's votes.

How fucking sad. And the poor people whotruly believe in the causes like that Family group, have no idea or turn blind eyes when their PAC jumps in bed with a man that wanted casinos here numerous times and the casino people that own Argosy. Yeah, family values in hypocrisy and who can fund you for their own agendas.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Derwood

They should have challenged it ever being a ballot issue. Now it's too late.

Derwood

Columbus officials are going to fight having a casino here, and are using the fact that Franklin County voted against Issue 3 as the base of their argument.