dksuddeth

see, I told you it wasn't me.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

ottopilot

The saddest outcome is the disappointment felt here by the lynch-mob hoping some hick-teabagger killed the poor guy. These are dangerous times my friends.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

Disappointment? You think I wanted the most obvious answer to be that some hateful madmen murdered an innocent man? It was and remains the most likely explanation for what happened, even if it's not what happened. While I make no apologies for following the evidence, I will say that my only real response to this is sadness for his family and concern over what apparently actually happened.

dksuddeth

I think there were alot of people out there, not just on this board, that looked forward to being able to bring as much heat as possible on Beck, Bachman, and anyone else that used alot of inflammatory rhetoric towards the Dems and Obama.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

ottopilot

Will, I believe you are truly sorry for the man and his family. But I can't help sensing that some here are more upset that it was a suicide rather than a politically motivated hate-crime. Some of the conspiracy rhetoric in this thread is highly disturbing.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

filtherton

I hope we can all continue to ignore how idiotic and desperate it is to attempt to start an argument about the horrible things that folks who aren't even present may or may not think.

ottopilot

yes, let's all do that.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

ratbastid

I'm actually very relieved it wasn't a redneck murder. It could be that the righty-idealogue broadcasters don't have their fangs in too deep yet. Obviously it compounds the tragedy for the man's family and friends, though.

I'm curious why he would have done this. I guess trying to ascribe logical motives to someone committing suicide may be a fool's game, but why stage it to look politically motivated? What do you think he was trying to make happen? Did we all get suckered into his game?

Also.... one SURE way have a death get proven to be suicide is to have two insurance companies scrambling to keep from having to pay out. They did the work the cops couldn't, it seems.

Willravel

I can't stand Beck and Bachmann, they're terrible human beings and in their quests for power they fan the flames of hate in such a brazen way that I'm surprised they've not yet been found guilty of inciting violence. My opinion has nothing whatsoever to do with who they attack, though, and I'm not alone in that. I feel that I can speak on behalf of most if not all other progressive members here on TFP in that they and I would be equally frustrated with Beck and Bachmann regardless of who they were attacking with lies and hatred. It's the attacks, the lies, the race-baiting, the ignorance, and the downright disloyalty we take issue with.

Edit: I feel it needs to be said, before anyone goes jumping to conclusions, the evidence that this is suicide is that the letters were not written in the way that a majority of people write them ("bottom up") and there don't seem to be any concrete signs of a struggle. While this is clearly more than any insurance company would want to deny life insurance, the fact of the matter is that it's hardly conclusive, in fact it demonstrates really shoddy logic. If the man were on his back when the letters were written and someone was standing or sitting over him on the head side, that could very easily explain why the letters were written from the bottom up, and without that piece of evidence, the "no evidence of a struggle" thing is meaningless.

As I said before:
The evidence, when reviewed objectively (something insurance companies are incapable of), all seems to point in the direction of some crazy asshole or assholes doing this, even though I wish it weren't the case. So maybe there shouldn't be feathers in caps about this just yet. Or at all, because a man fucking died.

Aladdin Sane

We eagerly await mea culpas from those who blamed the suicide of Bill Sparkman on Glenn Beck, Michele Bachmann, Robert Taft, and Father Coughlin. A few blogs to watch in the coming days:

MyDD

"No Suicide: That's the one thing we know for certain now in the case of the Kentucky lynching….But the most worrying possibility - that this is Southern populist terrorism, whipped up by the GOP and its Fox and talk radio cohorts - remains real. We'll see.”

Andrew Sullivan

The gruesome lynching of this Census worker seems to bear a disturbing similarity to some of the worst hate crimes committed across this country. Regardless of what the motive for the killing may have been, why would a murderer(s) take such pains to so blatantly convey anger, fear, and vitriol towards a Census employee? Perhaps because some on the right have created an impression that Census employees are terrifying.

Earlier this summer, Rep. Michele Bachmann (R-MN) waged a high-profile, wildly-dishonest campaign against the Census.

ThinkProgress

Others, namely the type to kill a Census worker and string up his body as message to the government, may call it a retraining camp run by the "Feds."

This is the kind of violent event that emerges from a culture of paranoia and unsubstantiated attacks.

Huffington Post

From this profile of the cancer survivor and volunteer, it appears suicide is unlikely. We'll find out. But at some point, unhinged hostility to the federal government, whipped up by the Becks, can become violence. That's what Pelosi was worried about.

Andrew Sullivan

Send the body to Glenn Beck…Is it possible that the time has come for the FCC to consider exactly what constitutes screaming fire over the publicly owned airwaves? And what if Mr. Sparkman’s murderer(s) is never found? How many other lunatics will be emboldened to make their own anti-government statement as the voices of Beck, Limbaugh and Dobbs echo in their ears?

Nobody ever intended our public airwaves to be turned over to irresponsible voices. Maybe the time has come for the FCC to worry a bit less about wardrobe malfunctions and a whole lot more about those who would use our airwaves to make a name for themselves at the expense of the public they are suppose to serve–particularly when the expense comes in the form of blood.

True/Slant

Back in September, The Washington Post reported that in Kentucky "Residents of impoverished Clay County say most people harbor no resentment for agents of the federal government, and they're baffled by Sparkman's apparent killing." What a bunch of hillbilly rubes! A week after the suicide, from his apartment in Washington, DC, Atlantic blogger and forensic investigator Andrew Sullivan had the case almost cracked, writing that "Suicide does not seem to me plausible, but motives for the murder are still under investigation."

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

girldetective

But, how did he die? If his feet were on the ground he didnt hang himself.

__________________
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

roachboy

how interesting that the cosnervative set is reduced to trying to find some kind of vindication for their politics in this particularly sad affair. i remember saying myself in this thread that the fact was at the time that no-one knows exactly what happened.
i am still not sure that we collectively know what happened--we know what was decided.

fact is that for a while the american neo-fascist right was creating a political environment in the context of which such actions appeared logical.

if anyone should apologize for anything, it's the conservative media apparatus for creating such a context.
but i don't see them tripping all over themselves to do that.

strange how this all works isn't it?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Only there's basically no real evidence of a suicide, and Glenn Beck are Michelle Bachmann are monsters that fuel hatred and ignorance. You'll get no false confessions from the news sources you found, because they were acting on the best information available instead of jumping to defend that while still appears likely.

Conversely, I expect no mea culpa from Beck or Bachmann, or any of the conservatives here that valiantly defended their ideological biases from reality. It would be contrary to the nature of a conservative to feel remorse, because for them nothing ever changes.

Cimarron29414

Do not fret, Will. There is still hope that Beck and Bachmann will be named in his suicide note as having shamed him into suicide.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Aladdin Sane

Speculation about motivation is nothing more than avoidance of the issue. I suspect some on the left are motivated by self-hatred, envy, and inmaturity, but saying so is not provable and doesn't advance my argument.
For those of you that realize you are prone to ad hominem argument and you would like to replace it with a productive manner of debate, I highly recommend C.S. Lewis' The Abolution of Man.

---------- Post added at 12:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:44 PM ----------

Will wrote, "It would be contrary to the nature of a conservative to feel remorse . . ." Way to stick to the subject, Will. Way to make TFP a friendly place for debate. You should be proud. No ad hominem attacks here. Never.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Willravel

What about the red herring of posting about news organizations that responsibly reported the news instead of discussing the subject at hand? Does C.S. Lewis have a parable for that?
I was responding in kind, and you know it. The veiled "I'm waiting for mea culpas" premature declaration of victory was fallacious and dishonest. The facts are here before us and don't fit with the life insurance investigation's findings as well as you and the Fox News article you linked would have us believe.

This discussion is not over. Evidence still suggests that murder was a possibility.

Aladdin Sane

Will, your post is just another personal attack. Not only is it "beyond my nature to feel remorse," now you proclaim me "dishonest." You are quickly losing ground, friend. At long last, have you no shame?

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

roachboy

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

What we're being lead to believe is that census worker Bill Sparkman hung a noose around his neck, opened his shirt and wrote "FED" on himself, duct taped himself to a tree, and allowed himself to hang to death, all this despite the fact that he had no motive to commit such a bizarre suicide and the area is known for drug trade and violent crime.

His family will not get his life insurance and will not be getting gratuity payments from the government.

Aladdin Sane

This is the evidence I have for believing it was a suicide: State police, the FBI, the medical examiner's office and the Clay County coroner agreed with the suicide conclusion. Perhaps more importantly, the prior Saturday, Sparkman had told a friend of his plan to hang himself near a cemetery in Clay County.

Posted on Wed, Nov. 25, 2009
Lexington Herald-Leader
Police: Census worker made death look like homicide to get money
By Bill Estep

FRANKFORT — A part-time U.S. Census worker found dead near a secluded Clay County cemetery killed himself but tried to make the death look like a murder, authorities have concluded.

Bill Sparkman, 51, of London, apparently was trying to preserve payments under life insurance policies he had taken out, one as recently as May, which paid benefits if he died as a result of murder or accident, but not suicide or natural causes, police said.

Sparkman had survived a bout with cancer a few years ago, but he told a friend he believed the cancer had returned and that he would die, police said.

However, there was no indication Sparkman's cancer had recurred, said Cristin Rolf, deputy state medical examiner.

In a two-month investigation, police marshaled a number of reasons to conclude Sparkman ended his own life. Among other things, only Sparkman's DNA was found on evidence at the scene, and he had told a friend details of his plan that matched what happened, police said at a news conference Tuesday.

Police interviewed potential homicide suspects but ruled them out and found no evidence pointing to any conclusion except that Sparkman killed himself.

"We do believe that we have everything we need to rule out homicide and accidental" death, said state police Capt. Lisa Rudzinski, who helped direct the investigation.

The benefits under Sparkman's two insurance policies totaled $600,000. Police declined to say who would have gotten the money, though Sparkman's son Josh, 20, has said he was a beneficiary.

Bill Sparkman was last seen on Sept. 9, a Wednesday. The prior Saturday, he had told a friend, whom police did not name, of his plan to hang himself near a cemetery in Clay County.

The friend said he didn't think Sparkman was serious and so didn't tell anyone about the conversation before Sparkman died, said state police Detective Donald Wilson, the lead investigator.

Sparkman's body was found Sept. 12 in a clearing near a family cemetery. People visiting the hillside cemetery saw the body.

Sparkman was wearing only socks, and there was a rope around his neck tied to a tree. The word "fed" was written on his chest with black marker in letters 12 to 14 inches high, and his census identification card was taped to his head.

Sparkman died at that spot as a result of asphyxiation. Police say he staged the details to try to make it appear he was murdered because he was a federal employee.

He succeeded in some quarters.

In addition to causing a firestorm of media coverage, the bizarre details led to widespread speculation on the Internet, including that someone angry at the federal government attacked Sparkman as he gathered census information door to door.

There has been a long-running federal public-corruption investigation in Clay County, and Sparkman mentioned that to his friend, said FBI spokesman David Beyer.

Many people felt the speculation and coverage of the death played on Appalachian stereotypes and gave Clay County an undeserved black eye.

"Everybody was saying, 'It's bad, but why are they saying this without letting the investigation go forward?' " said state Sen. Robert Stivers, a Republican who lives in the county.

Many in the media owe the county an apology, Stivers said.

The census suspended some work in Clay County after Sparkman's death. The agency has been notified of the findings in Sparkman's death and plans to resume normal operations, Beyer said.

If there had been no writing on his chest and his identification hadn't been taped to him, police could have concluded more quickly that Sparkman's death was a suicide, Rudzinski told the Herald-Leader.

Instead, it took considerably more investigation to rule out homicide. Investigators even analyzed the writing on Sparkman's chest to see how the letters were applied and determine whether he wrote on himself or someone else wrote on him.

Forensic tests showed that the letters were applied from the bottom to the top — not the way an assailant facing Sparkman would write them. Police concluded that Sparkman wrote on himself, Rudzinski said.

Authorities cited a number of reasons supporting the conclusion that Sparkman killed himself.

For instance, there was no evidence that Sparkman had struggled with anyone. There were no defensive wounds on his body and no trauma such as a blow to the head, authorities said.

Tests ruled out any theory that he was drugged and unconscious when he was tied to the tree, making the lack of signs of a struggle more significant.

Sparkman's glasses were taped to his head with duct tape. The question that raises is why a killer would care whether Sparkman, who had poor vision, could see what was going on.

Police say Sparkman taped the glasses to his head to make sure he could see as he prepared to kill himself, Rudzinski said.

Also, Sparkman was not dangling from the tree the way people commonly perceive hanging.

His legs were bent at the knees and his knees were less than six inches off the ground, authorities said.

The rope was thrown over a limb and tied off to another tree. Sparkman leaned forward, which would have put the weight of his body on his neck and caused him to lose consciousness, authorities said.

At some point, however, Sparkman could have stood up, taken the pressure off his neck and not died, said Mike Wilder, head of the state medical examiner's office.

Sparkman's hands were bound by duct tape, but loosely, allowing him to move them shoulder-width apart, Rolf said.

The significance of that is that Sparkman, acting alone, could have created all the conditions found at the scene, Rudzinski said.

"We do not believe he was placed in that position" by someone else, Rudzinski said.

The final piece of evidence police wanted in order to reach a conclusion in the case were the results of DNA testing. The results, received last week, showed there was no DNA other than Sparkman's on the rope, the rag in his mouth or a similar rag found near his body.

Authorities say they don't think there was any single event that triggered Sparkman to take his own life, but rather a combination of problems. He had significant debt and didn't have a full-time job, Rudzinski said.

In addition to the insurance considerations, Sparkman might have been trying to spare his family from thinking he killed himself, Rudzinski said, though he left no note so there is no way to know exactly what he was thinking.

"Every suicide is that person's way of saying good-bye, ending their life," Rudzinski said.

Josh Sparkman, whom Sparkman, a single father, adopted and raised, declined to comment Tuesday. He earlier had said he didn't think his father killed himself.

Investigators said they were confident in their findings. State police, the FBI, the medical examiner's office and the Clay County coroner agreed with the suicide conclusion.

"We did a thorough and complete investigation of all aspects surrounding Mr. Sparkman's death," Rudzinski said.

Police: Census worker made death look like homicide to get money - Latest News - Kentucky.com

Anyone who blamed Sparkman's death on conservatives should man up and apologize.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

dksuddeth

Will, i'm a bit mystified about your stance....well, maybe several peoples stance on this. Numerous times I will raise questions about 'official' explanations for things that just are not right and i'm readily dismissed as a cop hater, yet why is this case now different for you?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Willravel

I don't really see the point in apologizing for doing something entirely justified. The thread revolves around two main things, the death of Bill Sparkman and how it may or may not relate to the recent politically motivated killings committed by those that are of the modern conservative movement (Fox News et all). The only new part of this worth any bit of consideration is this mysterious confession from an anonymous "friend". FTA:
This is almost no information. Did this friend tell the police early on and they decided to sit on it, or did it take well over two months for this friend to put two and two together? Was this a very short conversation or did Bill Sparkman detail how he was going to set up anti-government folks? Did Bill Sparkman have a history of being anti-anti-government? Did he have a problem with Michelle Bachmann?

Means, motive, opportunity. Did he have the means? Kinda, though if this was a suicide it was one of the more elaborate ones to ever take place. Opportunity? Sure, Bill Sparks had opportunity to kill himself. But what's the motive? How does some vagueity about cancer lead someone to write "FED" on your chest in some elaborate plot to frame anti-government people?

This still doesn't add up, and demanding apologies isn't going to get us anywhere but a closed thread and I don't want this thread closed yet.

And for the record, law enforcement agreeing on something is not evidence of something.
The police make mistakes. Unless they have evidence they're still withholding for whatever reason, this recent development appears to be a case of jumping the gun (ironically, the same thing I did in the OP when I misinterpreted "scrawled" for "carved", certainly mea culpa for that).

I'd never, ever shoot at the police. The thought hadn't even crossed my mind until the insurrectionist threads on TFP. If they ever did cross the line with me, which doesn't seem likely because I'm a white guy, I hope I'd survive to press charges and get bad cops put behind bars, but we have vastly different philosophies regarding personal defense despite our agreement that there are crooked cops out there and they need to be taken off the streets. In this case, though, I suspect if there is any intentional fudging it's more political than anything else. The real problem is that if this was a murder, as it seems, there are murderers out there free to kill again.

girldetective

A very, very elaborate suicide.

__________________
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

ottopilot

If there are indeed monsters fueling hatred and ignorance, perhaps those who promote the irresponsible fantasy of some "Great Tea-bagger Menace" should take a hard look in the mirror. How are your voices are any less dangerous? "Light them torches and throw a rope over a tree branch… we gonna hang us some tea-baggers tonight!"


The purpose of the OP was blatantly divisive. The author assumed he must insert his propaanda in an undeveloped breaking story. How could he pass up the opportunity to exploit a mysterious death of an innocent civil servant set in the back-woods of Kentucky? ... Yellow journalism is alive and well.


After all, the letters F E D were carved in the poor man's chest... CARVED I TELL YOU! (oh sorry, it was from a felt-tip pen). And don't most of those gun-lovin religious nuts who wield their tea-bags all willy-nilly, running amok and possibly potentially maybe might-be some-day killing future probable persons by the thousands… wait !... could be MILLIONS!… don't THEY come from places like Kentucky? Of course they do! It makes perfect sense... just like creating and saving jobs. It all makes perfect sense.


And BTW – what does Beck and Bachmann have to do with any of this? Exactly which deaths are they responsible for? Produce the evidence. It's simply not there. I’d rather hear you explain why your inflammatory speech is less threatening than those you wish to silence. From the tone of this discussion, I’d say more.


Perhaps if this was the 1940's, and I was a Japanese-American citizen, and ... Golly, I need to stop my whining! The suspension of their collective rights as United States citizens was justified because they looked like real Japanese and (at least) a historically substantiated event demonstrated that lots of genuine Japanese really did kill several non-imaginary Americans at the actual un-fake place called Pearl Harbor.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Willravel

Only that's not what happened. If this is a case of suicide, which is a possibility, it's a very elaborate ruse indeed. His timing coinciding quite well with Bachmann's well publicized attack on the census and the recent conservative-related killings, not to mention the fact that it's becoming common practice on Fox News to basically trying to incite violence. My assumptions did not happen in a vacuum like, say, supposing "Obamacare" would lead to Nazism. Let's not pretend that my hypothesis was somehow baseless.

What surprised me was the unwillingness to admit that it was even a possibility, though. I wasn't asking for certainty, not even I had that, but an admittance that it was possible this was some very sick individuals that were motivated in some way by hate-filled rhetoric.
The "yellow-journalism" started in Bill Sparkman's chest and you know it. If this is just an elaborate red herring, it was not started by the likes of me or Andrew Sullivan, it was hatched in the mind of Mr. Sparks. If that was the case, and I still can't imagine how anyone can be certain at this point, then I'll admit I was fooled, but for good reason.
Yes, I was wrong about that. Fortunately, I've repeatedly pointed out that I was wrong about.
The problem with your sarcastic conclusions are that the facts did point in a specific direction. And no one ever said anything about religion, that has nothing to do with this.
source

Representative Bachmann went on to the most popular conservative television show to an audience that for the most part listens to her opinions and suggested that census workers are trying to put people in concentration camps. These ideas were repeated by Bachmann supporters. Less than three months later, a census worker was found hanged with "FED" written on his chest. It was never conclusive, but it wasn't just compelling but it fit with the pattern of recent killings of an abortion doctor, members of a highly progressive church, the shoot-up of a holocaust museum, and that kid that shot at the police because he was convinced that the president was trying to take his guns. All of these people had one thing in common: they were avid Fox News watchers that ended up committing lethal crimes based on their conservative belief systems.

I never suggested it was an air-tight case, but the fact that the Becks and Bachmanns have been stirring up this idea of revolution by pushing absolute bullshit nightmare scenarios on their supporters very well could motivate something like this, to give direction to someone's sickness.
Do you really think Dr. Tiller would be dead without the hate speech from people like Limbaugh, ORly, Beck, and Hannity? It's about inciting, baiting, and pointing the crazies in just the wrong direction.
Bachmann told a lie wrapped up in hyperbole and fear mongering about how the census would lead people to be interned like the Japanese were during WWII. That kind of trash appears every day on Fox News.

ratbastid

I apologize for believing the media when they described it as a murder. You're entirely right, I should have known better.

matthew330

"......and Glenn Beck are Michelle Bachmann are monsters that fuel hatred and ignorance" Agreed, this thread is proof of that, but i don't think that's what you meant. Go back and read the first two pages for some proof.

I think my favorite part is the suggestion that conservative media apparatus should apologize for the left desperatly trying to use a what was believed to be a single murder in the backwoods to legally implicate fox news "faux news" in case you've forgotten what fox is), and specifically named individuals.


"Yes, the LEFT are the chief practitioners of unfounded accusations, fear-mongering, and populist witch hunts. Certainly not the right."

With the wisdon of FuglyStick, there's no better place for this thread to be closed, before the tilted left makes themselves look any more ridiculous. Cheers!

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Cimarron29414

...or at least Tilted Paranoia. Will, bless your heart...Just admit you jumped to incorrect conclusions based on your own biases and stereotypes. Clinging to this ridiculous position is just silly.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dc_dux

My favorite would be the discussion on California's Prop 8 and the suggestion that consensual relationships between two gay adults would lead to pedophilia and bestiality, with nothing to prevent children and animals from giving consent.

Now that was hilarious....hmmmmm...who said that?

But I agree...anyone of any political persuasion making assumptions based on a "gotcha" mentality, as was the case with this hanging, often end up eating their own words.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Marvelous Marv

Got here late; right when the backpedaling started. Are Michelle Bachmann and Glenn Beck in jail yet?

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"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

filtherton

Ah Marv, you're like Ustwo without the wit.