dksuddeth

Halx, here are my views on it. I'm pretty sure they don't match what you think of the 'baggers', but I believe most are pretty representative of the majority of TEA protesters.

President Obama Cut Your Taxes

yes, and then they raised taxes on several common use products to make up for it. it can hardly be called a tax cut if the end user has to pay more for the products they consume due to those taxes being raised. That is what we call intellectual dishonesty, or in other words, smoke and mirrors.

jump starting GDP is another smoke and mirrors because the government does not produce. it only consumes and it is pure deception to the tax payer who ends up paying for this 'jump start'. It is also impossible to 'preserve jobs' and then be able to prove it. That's about as bad as saying that the patriot act and torture worked because we haven't been attacked since 9/11. Creating 60,000 government jobs does nothing for long term economy because those of us not working in the government sector have to pay the salaries of those who are. If the unemployment rate is rising, eventually the federal budget is going to implode and all of those newly created gov jobs are going to vanish.


The Stimulus is Working

pumping billions of dollars in to state coffers, allowing state legislatures to have their own pet projects, is another long term disaster. It has two effects: increases our overall debt which still has to be repaid, and it only teaches the states that in dire circumstances they can get bailed out by the feds. Both will be economic disasters.


First Reagan Tripled the National Debt..
Then Bush Doubled It Again

no argument from me here, but why can't we learn from history? deficit spending doesn't work, never has, never will. 'trickle down' should have been called 'trickle up'. That's all it did.



Republican States Have the Worst Health Care
This has more to do with the stranglehold that the insurance industries have on these states and is not indicative of the quality of health care. This should be one of the issues I talked about dealing with first and foremost. remove the power of the insurance industries. You can't do that by requiring insurance be maintained by americans. It only feeds the insurance company coffers.


Medicare is a Government Program

This goes back to what I said about the massive change. Medicare wasn't something that was widely supported when it was brought up, but the same way that social security was adapted and instituted as an entitlement, so was medicare. My grandmother is on medicare and my wife is soon to be on it as well. I've seen how my grandmothers health care has been handled and i'm not looking forward to seeing it happen to my wife. I'm not fond of it happening to me either. Again, massive change is not good, even if you think it is. All it does is throw peoples lives and realities in upheaval.


Barack Obama is Not a Muslim

non debatable on my part. another useless argument because some people will believe what they are going to believe. kind of like 'well regulated militia' means the national guard. I'll get better results banging my skull in to a brick wall. It's also just one more thing that alienates the majority of mainstreamers on the conservative side, by lumping them all in to the same category of batshit insane. not a smart move.


70,000 Does Not Equal 2,000,000

I wasn't there so I can't say for certain. I've heard about the fake picture from another event and i've heard the estimate of numbers. If that's more important to you than the actual emotions held, not just by those there, but the others that feel the same way who couldn't be there (and you can count me in on the group that wanted to be there but couldn't) then you're making the very mistake I told you others were making.....ignoring them and their non representation.


The Economy Almost Always Does Better Under Democrats

this may be, but if it is then they are also unsustainable as well. Every economic boom by a democrat has been followed by a burst bubble. I'll grant you, though, that it doesn't do great under republicans either. The one true thing that eludes alot of partisans on both sides is that your politicians are in almost all ways beholden to corporatism. They will look out for their money first and foremost. Republicans and Democrats alike. If you choose to ignore that fact, then there really isn't an issue about debating facts and reality as much as it is just pressing an ideological agenda. something I really want no part of.

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Caerus

Halx... I was totally going to post that. I would quote it too... but I can't even quote a link. :P

I read this earlier and was just about to post it. It is crazy. While I think it is extremely hyperbolic for either side to call either side terrorists, I think it can be said that there are in fact some extremely mis-informed people out there. The idea that this country would ever fall into a fascist/communist/socialist state is ludicrous. These people whine, and yet they enjoy plenty of services that they themselves would consider "socialist." I went to a town hall a few weeks ago and talked to one of these people. Essentially anything the government is socialism: the FCC, municipal water, road construction, the DMV, fire departments, police services, etc. It was almost like he was advocating anarchy--what should a government do if all of these things are socialist. ESPECIALLY, Social Security and Medicare which I guarentee a large percentage of these people are drawing. Do they realize that a "socialism" is paying for their medical costs?

I can understand many of these people's points about too much government spending, and I agree. But lets not forget who started that trend--Reagan tripled the debt and Bush doubled it. I believe we should take care of our own citizens, a la healthcare, and quit taking care of the rest of the worlds, a la aid to Israel, Wars, etc. In fact, Bin Laden recently released a tape re-stating why it was America was attacked on 9/11--they guy seems pretty reasonable, terrorist or not.

That can be found here at Yahoo news. It's called "Bin Laden reportedly calls Obama 'powerless'"

Wow, I wish I had 15 posts. Lol. This is ridiculous... I can't even quote something with a link in it. So much for promoting discussion.

rahl

[

I am one of those 'armed nutjobs' rahl, and hell yes there will be an armed revolution if this shit gets rammed down the throats of people who refuse to accept this monstrosity of change. If health reform is something you people want to see happen (and yes, these majority folks also want to see it done in a more sensible way) then you will heed their words and warnings and deal with this issue piecemeal fashion starting with the most essential parts first. Otherwise, you will see violent episodes which will escalate. Will the body count be worth the price to you?

Halx, I will respond shortly to your links as soon as I get a few minutes to sit and read them.[/QUOTE]

I am also armed(though not a self proclaimed nutjob) and I refuse to be intimidated by people who wish to throw a tantrum because they don't like the fact that their party is no longer in power, and who do not understand what it is they are protesting. If there is a violent revolution ( I'd any price you could name there won't be) I honestly feel bad for the few thousand morons who would end up getting killed for no reason at all, other than the becks and such telling them they have a duty to rebel.

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Willravel

Yeah, that revolution would be over in all of 9 minutes.

dksuddeth

you're still not getting it. why?

---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------

how's that 'solid' ground you're on?

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Willravel

It's the same ground I stood on when guns were being taken from warm, living hands during Katrina. It's the same ground I was standing on when the Branch Davidians were massacred. It's the same ground I stood on when during the attack on Ruby Ridge. It's the same ground I've been on when words of reprisal were tested and found wanting.

Historical precedent tells us the revolution would be an individual or small band of people and that person or band would likely be massacred by agents of some federal agency rather quickly. People would be very angry, and post it on their blogs or on forums but most of the country would simply move on after a few months.

rahl

[QUOTE=dksuddeth;2703918]you're still not getting it. why?[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:31 PM ----------




Explain it to me.

People starting an armed revolution about something they don't understand, or refuse to see the truth?

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dksuddeth

people fighting back because of things they do not understand or fear. it's really very simple.

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

will, do you believe that i'm part of the 'gun culture'?

do you believe that i'm also part of the three percenters or oath keepers? (look it up if you need to)

I've been part of the gun rights group for several years now. i'm in pretty much the thick of it, at least in TX. I hear the anger, the complaints, the resentment, but most of all I can hear the high pitched whistle of the steam trying to escape the boiling pot. it's ready to blow my friend and it will be more than just 90 people next time.

__________________
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Aladdin Sane

More protests from lefties (i.e., reasonable, nuanced, and tasteful):

Attached Images

AntiBush Protests.jpg (109.7 KB, 87 views)

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rahl

[QUOTE=dksuddeth;2703963]people fighting back because of things they do not understand or fear. it's really very simple.[COLOR="DarkSlateGray"]

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:58 PM ----------

And my question is what do you suggest to be done about it. We certainly can't bow down to a very deranged minority just because they have some misguided grievence not based in reality. Nor can we bow down to them just because they are armed.

I'm also armed, I've been a lifetime member of the NRA for 26 Years. And it's morons like this that gives the rest of the gun owning population such a bad name.

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Willravel

Sure.
You may be, I don't know.
It will probably be a lot less. I'd be willing to bet we'll see a few more isolated shootings at best, or a single act of medium to large scale terrorism perpetrated by a few individuals at most. As worked up as the "OMG OBAMAZ A NAZI" people are, they're waaaaay too comfortable to do anything stupid/brave.

Look at the pre-Revolutionary War for an example of an environment ripe for real revolution. Look for taxation without representation (the real version, not the moron version). Look for commonplace massacres of unarmed civilians. Look at people's daily lives being fundamentally changed for the worse across the board. Aside from the economy, which only a complete fool could attribute to President Obama, we're not even in the same solar system as that kind of civil unrest. What we have now are tools watching Fox News and being fearful and angry on command like golden retrievers.

Derwood

an armed revolution (against who, exactly?) over an issue like insuring American citizens would rank awfully high on the "most retarded things ever" list.

Willravel

I suspect it's just "teh gubbimit!"

KirStang

Do the more conservative members of this board notice how quick Derwood, Will and others are so quick to pigeon hole right leaning members?

"The gubbmiment" and "armed revolution" posts. So you attribute a ridiculous opinion to us and then claim how we're so irrational. Go figure.

Plan9

Kir, is it merely polar political leanings by association with some kind of cookie cutter Extreme-Oh! brand?

I mean... I'm a pro-abortion, universal-healthcare, fuck-the-states "liberal" in many respects... but then I own these gnarly black things that go bang.

I'm pretty sure there are "conservatives" that don't like guns. I just can't think of any...

...

Every time DK talks... he makes me want to sell my firearms and start collecting stamps. It starts out reasonable then suddenly gets all Red Dawn.
...

And no overthrowing the government until I finish my degree. I'm too busy right now.

/Tilted Politics? What was I thinking?

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Willravel

Does everyone notice what KirStang is doing? By posting that I am relating DK or other conservative TFPers to the nutballs at the tea party/9/12 protests, he's committing a strawman fallacy, as well as a red herring.

I never said that any of the conservatives on TFP were of the type that might be these fools at the faux-protests. In fact, I even said in #44 that DK was not one of these crazies.

Plan9

What if DK is a "nutball," though?

...

I think you were simply placating in #44.

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Willravel

I don't think DK thinks that President Obama is a Nazi or a communist. I don't think that DK thinks the brownshirt Obama Youth will eventually become a US version of the Nazi SS. I know DK doesn't think President Obama was born in Kenya. I'm virtually certain that DK understands just as well as anyone the role of the czars, and that they have no executive power whatsoever. I'm pretty sure DK thinks Beck is a nut job, just like I do.

We happen to have a differing ideology relating to the Second Amendment and we have a different opinion regarding what an armed revolution in the US would look like and how likely it might be.

Otto and I generally agree on the crazy people on the video, too. And Samcol. And Aladdin Sane. And Ace. And every other TFP conservative I'm familiar with.

SecretMethod70

Forgive me, I'm just going to paste this here. It makes the necessary point about potential rebellion so I see no reason in repeating it on my own...

Third Party & Independents: Ignorant Blood Will Water The Tree Of Liberty

This comment on that page is also a worthwhile point:

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Charlatan

I don't care who started this. I don't care if it was the left or the right that dragged the public discourse down to the level of the gutter. Both ends of the political spectrum have come up with new ways of being ignorant. The problem is, these fringe elements are getting more and more attention. Where is the voice of the middle in all of this? I realize that voice is not a ratings grabber and doesn't sell newspapers but really...

I've said it before, the US is facing some very tough times and they need to get their shit together.

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Cimarron29414

For the record, I have never endorsed, encouraged, nor agreed to any armed insurrection against the federal government. The only solution to rampant stateism is through the electoral process and the fair election of freedom-loving moderates.

...and another thing: The fact that you people would get there so easily in discussion is frightening. I am involved in community level movements which oppose rampant federalism (Tea Party Movement) and I have never been present when ANY discussion of armed insurrection has occurred. It is absolute INSANITY to suggest that any discussion like that is occurring. We are encouraging involvement in local and state government. We are encouraging you contacting your representatives with polite and educated opposition and questions about current legislation. Queries generally surround the cost of the suggested legislation. We may even assemble to have our voices heard. These assemblies attact other groups and we can not stop that from occurring, as their voice is no less valid than ours - their message might be judged less valid, but their voice is not.

You people are so far off the spectrum of reality in this thread that it is ridiculous. You have worked SO HARD to marginalize the message in your own minds that any further discussion is moot. I am going to opt of of this thread and perhaps others because I don't even want to be associated with speech such as this. If I could delete my posts out of this thread, as innoculous as they are - I would.

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Halx

You people? Excuse me?

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Cimarron29414

That's what I said. Is it upsetting to be bucketed and marginalized? To be grouped with others without justification? Hmmm.

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"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Halx

Interesting meta argument. Let's get back to the topic.

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Cimarron29414

The topic seems to be "Look at all these crazy tea party people. Aren't they all ignorant lunatics?!?!" So, I don't think my calling you out on generalizing the participants is off-topic at all.

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"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

Halx

Well, what else are they if not frenzied ignoramuses?

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Cimarron29414

I am really disappointed in you Halx, I expected more from you. Done with this thread.

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Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dksuddeth

This constitutional republic that was built was designed to protect the rights of the minority from the desires of the majority. I'm guessing that this was something pretty important to you from 2000-2008, but is probably less so currently. would that be about right?

and wanting to disregard the rights and fears of others to implement policy that YOU deem worthy makes you what? for a clue, look at the 3rd word of your last sentence above.

---------- Post added at 10:59 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:57 AM ----------

then make me an offer. you obviously don't have them for the reasons the founders intended.

---------- Post added at 11:05 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 AM ----------

most people that claim they support the second amendment then include a 'but' have no clue about the second amendment to begin with. It's a phrase used by them to make them seem 'mainstream' and reasonable when all it really does is show that they are full of shit.

---------- Post added at 11:08 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:05 AM ----------

They are nothing but that, Halx. in fact, I want you and all of your other brethren in the liberal progressive matrix to not only continue thinking that, but I want you to ramp it up to the Nth degree. I want to see you collaborate with all the other liberal groups out there and ostracize anyone who is not totally on board with your agenda. Get downright vicious in the rhetoric employed to group all others not aligned with you as frenzied ignoramuses.
Can you do that for me, please?

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Halx

I'm writing out a lengthy self-inquiry to the nature of my opinions, and that will be posted later. In the meantime, I simply want to know HOW I am supposed to be interpreting these people if not for the brazen stupidity that they are displaying. I'm not calling them frenzied ignoramuses because they aren't aligned with me, I am calling them so because their arguments are based off of UNREALITY. Am I supposed to be taking them seriously despite their lack of intellectual integrity? Even here on the TFP, you will not be taken seriously if you can't make points based on the same reality that we all share.

These people are not rallying because of taxes. They are not rallying because of debt. They are rallying because their representatives have polarized them against their opposition. They are rallying because they lost an election and now any decision that is not ideal is absolutely unacceptable. Regardless of the unrealized reality that these decisions are being made with their best interests in mind, they fight back even after learning that things aren't as bad as they thought.

No, I am not some government apologist. I am as skeptic as they come. I lean pretty close to the Libertarian platform on social rights, but I can't get over the moral obligation I have to look out for people less fortunate than me. I am OK with paying taxes as long as it goes toward making the world I live in a better place.

I don't agree with everything Obama does. He supports the Patriot Act, which is a huge privacy violation in my book. However, I cannot argue against healthcare reform. This may come as a surprise, but I am one of those uninsured. I'm afraid to get sick and I want change. I am happy with the proposed changes. These people are against the reform for FALLACIOUS reasons. I cannot sympathize.

So let's get back to me "marginalizing" the tea baggers. dk seems to think that I am railing on them because they disagree with me. I constantly maintain that it is not because we disagree. A disagreement would be along the lines of: I disagree with the need for war, but you think it is necessary in general. Let me tell you what is NOT a disagreement, but in fact a fallacy: I think the Iraq war was unnecessary, but you think the Iraq war was necessary because it put the clamps on the terrorists. You see, it is a fallacy because Iraq had absolutely no tie to any terrorists or any weapons of mass destruction. We knew this then and we know it now. So, I am not "disagreeing" with the tea baggers, they are basing their opinions off of fallacies. Their fallacies center around Obama's lack of credibility and lies that their representatives have told them about the health care reform.

I am not marginalizing people because we disagree, I am dismissing their INVALID opinions because they do not stand up to the test of evidence and proof.

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Willravel

Wait, so you support the president now? Or by "moderates", do you mean middle right?
You probably have. I've only been at three (San Jose, Vallejo, Morgan Hill), but a common trait is the not so subtle threat of physical force, especially armed. If you're missing it, read the signs.
If only that were the case. You assemble because the events are organized by either a corporate owned radio station, a member of the legislative, or the Fox News channel. You assemble for myriad reasons, the only commonality is anger at the right (most of which is entirely unfounded). The few people that do show up for honest libertarian reasons are drowned out by the sea of stupid. I think you think we don't have good reason to believe that the "Obama = Nazi" people are the rule, not the exception, but you being involved in the movement does not give you a monopoly on truth. I've been to these and so have other people. I even took pictures and posted them in another thread.

As for validity, no, that's not how it works. If you're complaints are based on a fundamental misunderstanding of reality, you will be judged to be less valid.
I don't have to work hard to marginalize someone that will photoshop the first (half) black president to look like an African witch doctor. I don't have to work to marginalize someone that will call someone a communist AND a Nazi. I don't have to work hard to marginalize the fact that this "grass roots" movement has been corporate controlled and directed since day one. I don't have to work hard to marginalize people that will outright lie about the number of people at their protest.

dogzilla

People like me who are fed up with the government treating my bank account like their personal piggy bank.

After a bailout, a buyout of GM and Chrysler, cash for clunkers, credit for homebuyers, and now a national health plan, I've had enough. Obama's actions are the straw that broke the camel's back, so to speak.

I've paid my bills and never had the government bail me out. I'm tired of the government taking my money to compensate someone else for their failures.

A friend of mine went to last weekend's DC protest. She's smart enough to write a protest poster and spell all the words correctly. I would have gone with her, except I had prior commitments.

And by the way, I don't waste my time with Rush, Glenn Beck, etc, nor do I read Fox news that much.

Halx

Oh, and for the record, I never considered violent opposition in my arguments until dk brought it up.

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dippin

What always amazes me is how any defense of the tea parties always revolve around some meta discussion about political participation. The defense is never about how their points a, b, and c make sense. It is always about how they shouldn't be marginalized, how they have the right to speak, how they are doing just like "the left" did, and etc. etc.

The closest we ever come to discussing the tea parties themselves is when someone points out that there are reasonable members that are a part of the movement, how not everyone is a loony, and sometimes even how the loony wing is a minority. And I am sure those are all possible things. But here's a social movements 101 protip: the message that matters is of the movement, not of individuals. And right now the message being put forth by the tea parties IS the message of the loonies and the fringe. So it doesn't matter what the reasonable people in the movement think, it matters what the message of the movement itself is, as framed by its leaders, its backers in the media, and so on.

And that message right now is as misguided and contradictory as they come. This mixture of taxation protest coupled with pleas of more military spending and a defense of medicare simply doesn't make sense, just as the "Indonesian Muslim" attacks...

Unfortunately, it is a sad statement about American democracy that those who oppose Obama for more legitimate reasons feel like they have no choice but being co-opted by loonie wing of the republican party.

Halx

Let's not forget that the bailouts were initiated under the Bush administration.

The government has blown trillions of dollars on a war that was unnecessary, but we start getting pissed off when we try to jump start the economy? Settle down people. The Bush administration set us up for one hell of a ride.

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dippin

First point, dislike it all you like, the bailout was actually profitable for the govt. AIG is making its back payments on time, and the govts. share of citigroup have actually turned out a 11 billion dollar profit.


Second point, while the govt. did indeed spend a lot of money on car makers and etc., none of those expenditures even come close to medicare and military, which are close to half the entire budget and should increase further in time. And these two spending items are things tea party protests want more of! That is the lunacy.

FuglyStick

I'm no fan of W, but I'm not going to lay the blame for the collapse of the economy at his feet. The economy failed due to practicing a flawed economic model to begin with, a pattern that was begun decades ago.

---------- Post added at 12:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

Troof, brother. Get all militant on me, and I might get militant back.

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dippin

by the way, this is the best take down of the tea parties, and it comes from a Reagon admin. economist:

Tax Tea Party Time, Part Two - Forbes.com

roachboy

the meta-argument:
this incoherent nonsense is a viable form of political participation in a democracy--which means that informed debate is an option and no more than that so effectively anything goes--which is of course as far from a democratic notion as is imaginable---worse in many ways than State Oppression because it guts the process from the inside, and does so in the name of extending and embodying what it guts

why it's being floated:
it's the only line of defense abstract enough to encompass the hodge-podge of far right wing interest groups that have banded together. there's no way to defend the contents directly. so all that matters is Performance. once you go there, the usual facile relativizing moves all follow. for example: poor me, look at how my conservatism is being victimized, why those Evil Leftists aren't accused of being idiots in the same way as i am being. poor me, victim again.

a riff:

i still maintain that what we're seeing here is a performance of nothing more or less than an outburst of conservative paranoia, run through some Outrage over being Persecuted by obama, who is now the Evil Father who exists only to Inflict Injury on the shattered ego of conservative politics.

this Persecution follows not from obama having the audacity, the gall, to say that something has to be done to change the way health care is understood and delivered in the united states--they can't even agree that health care is the actual issue at hand, perhaps thinking that calling for a national debate on the question is some kind of Trap the sole function of which is to Further Persecute conservatives.

the problem is that conservatives had power for 8 years, they fucked it all up, their ideology lay in ruins, they're talking to no-one but themselves.

the problem is particular to populist conservatism, which was always used by the republican party. i suspect that these folk feel collectively cut adrift, and have no sense of being able to influence the coming Wave of New Persecutions.

and the populist right--and it's political expressions--have long shown themselves incapable of distinguishing between their own political fortunes and that of this larger hallucination that is their america. it's as if the feeling of being-impotent politically that is specific to populist conservatism is staged internally as an apocalypse.

however it came into being, it's clearly of no consequence to any of these folk, or the handlers that set them into motion, or the corporate entities that funnel money into those handlers for their own reasons, that the spectacle is a serious problem, damaging the actually existing america of which the conservative hallucination is but a small and shrinking part.


it's infantile.

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FuglyStick

You're never gonna get through to Republicans using the facts, dippin. Truth of the matter is, if McCain had won the election, you wouldn't hear a peep from them.

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dksuddeth

and those of us who are really pissed off right now were pissed back when Bush started this ride. Getting pretty damned tired of being lumped in with the group of those who are only upset because Obama is doing it now.

---------- Post added at 12:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:39 PM ----------

cite please. I know I'd like to see the military budget cut, pretty sure alot of my associates also would like to see that happen. so i'm sure you can show me where I'm in the fringe element of that group, right?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."