9/12 Tea Party Interview Video - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dksuddeth · 09-15-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Most of the centrists in this country hardly share your libertarian views which might explain why libertarians have never had wide spread popular support.

Much of the participation in these theatrical events is at the urging of the right wing talking heads or the sponsorship of right wing advocacy organizations. These, for the most part, are not spontaneous events. They are orchestrated, promoted, organized and funded by the right.

fuck it, again. you guys are right and i'm wrong as usual because i'm a Libertarian or some stupid shit while you 'progressives' have all the answers.

no warning goes heeded. no advice gets taken. y'all think you got it handled by ignoring or disrespecting a whole group for the thoughts and/or ideas of a few.

far be it from me to impede your efforts at ostracizing other americans who aren't as smart as you guys are.

---------- Post added at 11:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:45 AM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

Dude, I think I spoke fairly clearly by explaining that these people are largely represented. In fact they are OVER-represented.

no again. you THINK these people are largely represented because you NEED to believe that it's all being orchestrated by fox news, glen beck, and rush limbaugh. you couldn't be farther from the truth. Those organizations might be the providing vehicle, but they do not represent the views of all of those people. something you refuse to see I guess.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

They are just pissed off because their side is losing despite it all. Boo fucking hoo. Maybe if they learned what the issues REALLY were and how they are affected by them before they started to rally, we'd have more to discuss than the fact that they're batshit crazy.

how long have most of you 'progressives' dismissed my issues out of hand and why? you guys really need to shake yourselves out of the snowglobe you've stuck yourselves in to preserve your version of reality. You're going to get a rude awakening soon if you don't.

dc_dux · 09-15-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

fuck it, again. you guys are right and i'm wrong as usual because i'm a Libertarian or some stupid shit while you 'progressives' have all the answers.

no warning goes heeded. no advice gets taken. y'all think you got it handled by ignoring or disrespecting a whole group for the thoughts and/or ideas of a few.

far be it from me to impede your efforts at ostracizing other americans who aren't as smart as you guys are.

dk...I am not saying you are wrong because you are a Libertarian, but simply that Libertarians are not representative of those in the center. No election, at any time, would suggest otherwise.

Centrists, for the most part, see the value of the role of government in many programs from which they (or someone they know) benefit and simply want efficient government, not less government.

This sign, the most prominent at the recent event, is not an impulse sign, hand written by a concerned citizen.

It is an organized and orchestrated message from insurance industry (and other) special interest groups opposed to health care reform.

Cimarron29414 · 09-15-2009, 09:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

I really have yet to hear something sane come out of ANY "tea bagger's" mouth. I have a feeling you'd be hard-pressed to find a rational concern in any of the interviews that were left out.

How about this:

Dear Washington,

This year, you spent 1,600,000,000,000 more dollars than you collected...and that is only this year's debt. It's money that I am going to have to pay back, with interest. Stop doing it, I'm done saying "please". It's the essence of the argument and it's perfectly rational.

Willravel · 09-15-2009, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

For that matter, which MSNBC, Air America (etc....) personality should we blame for the terrorist actions of ELF and the guy who just recently gunned down an anti-abortion protester in front of a school?

ELF should be held responsible for all the lives they've claimed.... err I mean the property they've destroyed. Regarding the "anti-abortion protester", turns out that wasn't actually the case. The gunman, Harlan Drake, had a grudge against the second victim (who wasn't a pro-life protester) and the protester just got caught in the gunfire.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

You're going to find crazies in any demography. Was anything extreme ever said or done regarding Bush? I bet you could find some pretty disturbing commentary regarding our last president right here in the archives of TFP. Let's try maintaining some perspective before demonizing a group of people that most (here) seem to know little about, and seem all too eager to jump on the "lets label them as terrorists" band-wagon.

It's funny how that commentary didn't really include common and overt death threats. And it's funny that we never saw pro-life folks getting gunned down in church or nazi museums being shot up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

domestic terrorists? does that include me?

I'm not aware of you making specific death threats, spreading the hateful propaganda of Glenn Beck, or murdering people. In fact, I'd say that the only time that you'd ever open fire on someone is if they were clearly trying to kill you. You're a libertarian, and you're a part of gun culture, but you're not one of these teabaggers. You're probably like the other conservatives I know that were excited about the tea party movement at first, but as soon as you realized that it was being organized by Fox News and most of the people attending were morons, you decided that it was a good idea gone very, very bad.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

seriously folks, what is it that you refuse to see about these groups of people? sure, some of them are out there just for the partisanship, but a larger portion of these folks are angry and tired about not being represented. These are folks who aren't left or right, but somewhere in there and their views and concerns are being totally ignored.

They are being represented. They all have congressional and senate representation, and they all had the opportunity to vote in the last presidential election. That's governmental representation.

Anyway, you hear what they're saying in the video. And don't pretend that's just the fringe of the movement. Can you blame people for ignoring them? They think the Czars have executive power, for christ's sake. That's intentional ignorance.

biznatch · 09-15-2009, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

fuck it, again. you guys are right and i'm wrong as usual because i'm a Libertarian or some stupid shit while you 'progressives' have all the answers.

no warning goes heeded. no advice gets taken. y'all think you got it handled by ignoring or disrespecting a whole group for the thoughts and/or ideas of a few.

far be it from me to impede your efforts at ostracizing other americans who aren't as smart as you guys are.

Sorry, but imagine debate class in school. If you have one student in favor or, say, health care reform, who presents his arguments with facts, examples, statistics, and turns it into a coherent case, of course people will pay attention, and they'll have something to respond to.
If the opponent's response is something to the tune of "but the reform will entail death panels!" or "everything done by the current President is communism!" without backing it up, he's gonna get ridiculed.

We're not ostracizing, it's just hard to listen to highly emotional, non-factual, hardly coherent babble, the only purpose of which is to make people angrier.

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

How about this:

Dear Washington,

This year, you spent 1,600,000,000,000 more dollars than you collected...and that is only this year's debt. It's money that I am going to have to pay back, with interest. Stop doing it, I'm done saying "please". It's the essence of the argument and it's perfectly rational.

See, that's fine. It's also more coherently formulated than practically anything I've seen in the whole "movement."
I don't have a problem listening to people like you, who state valid concerns, it's the mass of ridiculous pre-made thoughts worded by pundits and copy-catted by protesters, via signs, chants, and blog posts that make me cringe.

Cimarron29414 · 09-15-2009, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by biznatch

Sorry, but imagine debate class in school. If you have one student in favor or, say, health care reform, who presents his arguments with facts, examples, statistics, and turns it into a coherent case, of course people will pay attention, and they'll have something to respond to.
If the opponent's response is something to the tune of "but the reform will entail death panels!" or "everything done by the current President is communism!" without backing it up, he's gonna get ridiculed.

We're not ostracizing, it's just hard to listen to highly emotional, non-factual, hardly coherent babble, the only purpose of which is to make people angrier.

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:40 PM ----------

See, that's fine. It's also more coherently formulated than practically anything I've seen in the whole "movement."
I don't have a problem listening to people like you, who state valid concerns, it's the mass of ridiculous pre-made thoughts worded by pundits and copy-catted by protesters, via signs, chants, and blog posts that make me cringe.

Technically, this was the basis of the tea party movement. TEA - Taxed Enough Already. Many have jumped on the movement to air their grievances with the current federal government. These people march under the same banner, but their grievances are about a variety of different issues: environmental, death panels, illegal aliens, etc. They aren't really addressing or considering the core problem which is the realization that eventually borrowed money has to be paid back. The initial movement has always been about "We can't possibly pay for all of this!?!?"

biznatch · 09-15-2009, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

Technically, this was the basis of the tea party movement. TEA - Taxed Enough Already. Many have jumped on the movement to air their grievances with the current federal government. These people march under the same banner, but their grievances are about a variety of different issues: environmental, death panels, illegal aliens, etc. They aren't really addressing or considering the core problem which is the realization that eventually borrowed money has to be paid back. The initial movement has always been about "We can't possibly pay for all of this!?!?"

And this is where I see hope for the conservative movement. If they controlled their message to reflect more reasonable concerns, especially fiscal concerns, they would appear, whether now or in 2012, as those who were reasonable on spending, and depending on how un/successful the Obama cabinet was, be the ones who were "right."

Unfortunately, they apparently have no control over their message, or they don't want control, and would rather have anger displayed throughout. While it's a great way to rally more people, and make crowds, it distorts the message so much that nobody wants to listen to the incoherent brouhaha...especially when only the most violent, hateful stuff is what seems to be most prominent.

Halx · 09-15-2009, 10:15 AM

Really, how can you look at such an unreasoned, unthinking opinion and attribute it to anything other than misinformation? If this was a grassroots movement, we'd at least be able to detect some sort of passion out of these people instead of:

1: Lies
2: Truth
1: Oh... I didn't know that.

These people are pawns.

Derwood · 09-15-2009, 10:16 AM

A republican could run on the "fiscally conservative" platform, but it would be so easily destroyed by the opposition that it wouldn't work. the GOP controlled White House and Congress started us down this path of debt and deficit, and no amount of attempts to rewrite history will make that go away.

roachboy · 09-15-2009, 10:31 AM

you reap what you sow.
conservatives opened themselves up to the far right during the clinton period. the discourse of the populist set drifted well into that region. if you think about it, there's not a whole lot that holds together the defacto coalition of far right groups. this leaves the conservative machine with little space to manoever.
add to that the consequences of conservatives actually holding power for 8 years prior to this, and i think the incoherent, paranoid memes that shape the anti-healthcare crowd at least becomes explainable.

basically, in my more optimistic moments, i agree with what dc said earlier: we are watching the right eat itself.
in my less optimistic moments, i find this whole display a pathetic commentary on what american consumer "democracy" has become.

dippin · 09-15-2009, 10:45 AM

The problem is that there is a large and significant intersection between the tea party movement and the republican party.

It is simply impossible to enact tax cuts without cutting spending on some pretty popular programs, and as such, there is a dilemma of how can one push for tax cuts without harming one's chances in major elections by proposing cuts in popular programs. That is where a lot of the red meat of these protests comes in. As they can't say "cut military spending, medicare, education and social security," they come up with these convenient scapegoats as targets of their collective frustrations. "it's the illegal immigrants," "it's the pork," "it's the welfare queens," "it's money for the damn foreigners," when none of these things, even when taken together, are enough to make up for the deficits...

The_Jazz · 09-15-2009, 10:50 AM

Whenever I see tea party folks, I can't help but conjure the term "rabble rousers". Which, in my twisted mind, immediately turns to food.

mmmmmm, delicious self-righteous anger....

Cimarron29414 · 09-15-2009, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

A republican could run on the "fiscally conservative" platform, but it would be so easily destroyed by the opposition that it wouldn't work. the GOP controlled White House and Congress started us down this path of debt and deficit, and no amount of attempts to rewrite history will make that go away.

Exactly which WH and Congress are you referring to?

Willravel · 09-15-2009, 10:56 AM

Thesaurus: Moron

Cimarron29414 · 09-15-2009, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

you reap what you sow.
conservatives opened themselves up to the far right during the clinton period. the discourse of the populist set drifted well into that region. if you think about it, there's not a whole lot that holds together the defacto coalition of far right groups. this leaves the conservative machine with little space to manoever.
add to that the consequences of conservatives actually holding power for 8 years prior to this, and i think the incoherent, paranoid memes that shape the anti-healthcare crowd at least becomes explainable.

basically, in my more optimistic moments, i agree with what dc said earlier: we are watching the right eat itself.
in my less optimistic moments, i find this whole display a pathetic commentary on what american consumer "democracy" has become.

I actually have to agree with you twice in one week. Our society has fallen prey to an unsustainable consumption of all new things. The debt levels that we carry because of our lack of discipline is a major contributor to our overall economic condition. Few who ask for fiscal resposibility from the government actually practice it at a personal level. In another thread, someone suggested talking to your grandparents about something or other - go talk to them about how they feel about your $10,000 in credit card debt.

flstf · 09-15-2009, 11:14 AM

I see a bunch of people who are very scared and lashing out. We were told by President Bush and his advisors that we were on the brink of another great depression and must spend billions to bail out Wall Street. We are told by President Obama that because of the irresponsible behavior of the bankers we must spend billions more to avoid catastrophe. Also that without health care reform the country will soon go broke.

President Obama is an easy target for many of those angry people. To many he is not really one of us. He is black and has a Muslim name. I believe this too frightens many to extreme rhetoric and yes racism has something to do with it.

kutulu · 09-15-2009, 11:40 AM

I think my favorite part of the video was the part about the czars.

Halx · 09-15-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kutulu

I think my favorite part of the video was the part about the czars.

Mine was: "And you know this how?"

rahl · 09-15-2009, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

I'm a middle of the road American, having neither unyielding conservative principles nor unwavering liberal principles. Having somewhat close acquaintances involved with the TEA organizers on a grassroots level, I have alot in common with these people. Most of those people aren't much different than I am.

---------- Post added at 11:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:27 AM ----------

and you, Halx, will be one of the reasons why the further slide down to violent outbursts will occur. It will get uglier and it will get violent because you wish to ignore these people. Again, they are not only not being represented, but they are also being ignored. A volatile mix for people in this country that are armed.

These people are clearly not being ignored. They are being covered quite well by the media in both the townhall meetings and this rally. There comes a time when you have presented the truth, argued the facts in a clear way, and if people still refuse to believe reality that is their fault and the rest of the country must move on without them.

dksuddeth · 09-15-2009, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

These people are clearly not being ignored. They are being covered quite well by the media in both the townhall meetings and this rally. There comes a time when you have presented the truth, argued the facts in a clear way, and if people still refuse to believe reality that is their fault and the rest of the country must move on without them.

a very bad strategy that is destined to end up bloody.

Willravel · 09-15-2009, 12:47 PM

You know what'd be nice? If the libertarians took the tea parties back from the moonbats. If some morons were protesting at anti-war protests in my area getting all their facts wrong (and some really did), you better believe I'd be out there immediately so that they don't damage the overall movement.

rahl · 09-15-2009, 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

a very bad strategy that is destined to end up bloody.

What would you suggest? How can you help someone see reason when they are being willfully ignorant? You can only clearly prove something to someone so many times before you throw up your hands and say your on your own.

Halx · 09-15-2009, 12:56 PM

10 Lessons for Tea Baggers | Crooks and Liars

I found this to be interesting

dksuddeth · 09-15-2009, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

You know what'd be nice? If the libertarians took the tea parties back from the moonbats. If some morons were protesting at anti-war protests in my area getting all their facts wrong (and some really did), you better believe I'd be out there immediately so that they don't damage the overall movement.

a bunch of us are trying to, but even then, the others do have legitimate issues even though they've signed on to the fomenters.

---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

What would you suggest? How can you help someone see reason when they are being willfully ignorant? You can only clearly prove something to someone so many times before you throw up your hands and say your on your own.

yeah, i'm very familiar with that feeling myself.

Halx · 09-15-2009, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

a very bad strategy that is destined to end up bloody.

This argument is astounding. Let me get this straight: Unless we take these raving lunatics seriously, there will probably be some violent uprising? How is taking them serious even possible? Do you understand what I am asking? These people don't even know that they have what they want because all they see is a black man giving it to them.

Rekna · 09-15-2009, 01:07 PM

DK I think the biggest problem with your argument right now is that you are assuming these protesters are middle of the road and make up a significant number of middle of the road people.

I disagree with this and I believe that these people are generally far right and their views do not accurately represent the majority of this country. Almost every poll I have seen says that a majority (and in many cases a large majority) of Americans support a public option.

rahl · 09-15-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

a bunch of us are trying to, but even then, the others do have legitimate issues even though they've signed on to the fomenters.

---------- Post added at 04:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:00 PM ----------

yeah, i'm very familiar with that feeling myself.

You didn't answer my question. Every argument these people have has been PROVEN wrong at every turn, yet they still keep at it. What is your solution if not to ignore them?

dksuddeth · 09-15-2009, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

This argument is astounding. Let me get this straight: Unless we take these raving lunatics seriously, there will probably be some violent uprising? How is taking them serious even possible? Do you understand what I am asking? These people don't even know that they have what they want because all they see is a black man giving it to them.

you mentioned about a wasted argument before, correct? how is it that I should bother getting you to understand that all of the dumber people you are seeing on these videos are handpicked by people intent on denigrating the rest of the group who ARE smart and have other serious concerns?

and yes, i'm telling you that if you don't take these people seriously, even as stupid as they may seem to you, there will be violence. you can only push people so far before they strike back. It doesn't take a whole lot of pushing for some people.

Willravel · 09-15-2009, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

a bunch of us are trying to, but even then, the others do have legitimate issues even though they've signed on to the fomenters.

Maybe if the libertarians could just agree that the godwins, death threats, "nazi=communist=socialist=fascist" bullshit, and racist elements (including birthers) have to go. I not only could live with that, but I'd be happy to help.

dksuddeth · 09-15-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

DK I think the biggest problem with your argument right now is that you are assuming these protesters are middle of the road and make up a significant number of middle of the road people.

I disagree with this and I believe that these people are generally far right and their views do not accurately represent the majority of this country. Almost every poll I have seen says that a majority (and in many cases a large majority) of Americans support a public option.

and i've seen a number of polls that say the opposite. polls are useless.

what i'm talking about are the bigger issues of what this will do in the long run. These people are scared because there is nothing to measure the failure or success of such a costly move. You're talking about putting something that has been a bedrock of their existence and shoving a wedge through it with no guarantee of success. The cost of failure though can be completely devestating.

most of these people do not want this rushed through for varied reasons, but using the current democrat tactics of 'no time to waste' and 'people will die if we don't' are only entrenching them in their positions.

forcing that kind of change on people when they are either not ready, not accepting, or just plain against it is a recipe for disaster.

also, the cries of this being in any way about racism are sure to continue pissing the ones off who, at this point, are only concerned about the cost of this plan. continuing with the racist banner is only going to move those particular individuals squarely in the 'we'll oppose anything' camp. Then you'll have a bigger problem.

Halx · 09-15-2009, 01:40 PM

So, dk, what are your reactions to the link I posted that argued against the many points that the tea baggers rally around?

rahl · 09-15-2009, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

you mentioned about a wasted argument before, correct? how is it that I should bother getting you to understand that all of the dumber people you are seeing on these videos are handpicked by people intent on denigrating the rest of the group who ARE smart and have other serious concerns?

and yes, i'm telling you that if you don't take these people seriously, even as stupid as they may seem to you, there will be violence. you can only push people so far before they strike back. It doesn't take a whole lot of pushing for some people.

Your still not answering my question. I get it that the absolute nutjobs don't represent everyone. But the majority of people who oppose this president do so based on factually incorrect information, provided to them from the becks and other morons of the fox new agency. When someone will not see reason even when you prove them wrong what are you to do? These nutjobs, even though armed, post absolutely no threat what so ever. Do you really think there will be an armed revolution? If so I feel very sorry for those that take up the cause because according to you only a very few actually believe this stuff.

Halx · 09-15-2009, 01:59 PM

One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place.

Willravel · 09-15-2009, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Halx

One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place.

Are you suggesting that Glenn Beck should shoot himself?

dksuddeth · 09-15-2009, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

Your still not answering my question.

This question has been asked and answered by many people on both sides.
I get it that the absolute nutjobs don't represent everyone. But the majority of people who oppose this president do so based on factually incorrect information, provided to them from the becks and other morons of the fox new agency. When someone will not see reason even when you prove them wrong what are you to do?
both sides present 'facts' and information that the other side then 'proves' is wrong, a lie, intellectually dishonest, etc. These majority people I'm talking about do not care anymore about what 'facts' and information gets provided. They are tired of listening to pundits talk down to them with a glib explanation that takes a 1,000+ page bill and believes that in two sentences it can be explained to the citizenry at large. These majority people do not want to hear any more about how complicated these things are to fix and that they take an extraordinary amount of changes at once to do so. Forcing that anyway is a sure recipe for armed revolt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rahl

These nutjobs, even though armed, post absolutely no threat what so ever. Do you really think there will be an armed revolution? If so I feel very sorry for those that take up the cause because according to you only a very few actually believe this stuff.

I am one of those 'armed nutjobs' rahl, and hell yes there will be an armed revolution if this shit gets rammed down the throats of people who refuse to accept this monstrosity of change. If health reform is something you people want to see happen (and yes, these majority folks also want to see it done in a more sensible way) then you will heed their words and warnings and deal with this issue piecemeal fashion starting with the most essential parts first. Otherwise, you will see violent episodes which will escalate. Will the body count be worth the price to you?

Halx, I will respond shortly to your links as soon as I get a few minutes to sit and read them.

flstf · 09-15-2009, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

also, the cries of this being in any way about racism are sure to continue pissing the ones off who, at this point, are only concerned about the cost of this plan. continuing with the racist banner is only going to move those particular individuals squarely in the 'we'll oppose anything' camp. Then you'll have a bigger problem.

Exchanges like the following seem to be too far over the top for intelligent debate:

Quote:

"Tea Party" leader Mark Williams appeared on a CNN panel on "Anderson Cooper 360" last night and promptly set to work discrediting himself and his movement. Williams denounced those carrying blatantly racist signs against President Obama during the tea parties as "no more part of the mainstream of America than the hippies who wear nipple clips and feather boas in San Francisco streets during so-called peace demonstrations."

Cooper had done his homework, however, and caught Williams blatantly misrepresenting himself: "What you're saying makes sense to me here when I'm hearing what you say but then I read on your blog, you say, you call the President an Indonesian Muslim turned welfare thug and a racist in chief."

Williams shrugs and responds, "Yeah, that's the way he's behaving." An incredulous Cooper asks Williams if he really believes Obama is an Indonesian Muslim and a welfare thug. The tea party leader digs the hole a little deeper: "He's certainly acting like it. Until he embraces the whole country what else can I conclude."

Aladdin Sane · 09-15-2009, 03:48 PM

History is a stubborn, pesky thing. The Left is now furious that, as the new establishment, the rules of discourse are not more polite. But from 2002-8, they (Who are “they”? Try everyone from Al Gore to John Glen to Robert Byrd to Sen. Durbin), employed every Nazi/brown shirt slur they could conjure up. NPR’s folksy old Garrison Keiler was indistinguishable from mean-spirited Michael Moore in that regard. The New York Times gave a discount for a disgusting “General Betray Us” ad. The Democratic Party head Howard Dean flatly said he “hated” Republicans. Hilary Clinton all but called Gen. Petraeus a liar in a congressional hearing. The New Republic ran an essay on hating George Bush (not opposing, not disliking, but “hating” the President). Alfred Knopf published a novel about killing Bush. A Guardian op-ed dreamed of Lee Harvey Oswald and John Wilkes Booth coming back to kill Bush. And on and on. No one objected.

And then something strange and quite unexpected happened. The Democrats nominated a charismatic African-American, won the presidency, after obtaining large majorities in Congress, and suddenly became the Establishment, demanding respect for the Commander in Chief in direct proportion to their efforts to deny respect to his predecessor.

Then just as suddenly two tropes appeared after January 20th of this year:
One—cannot we all get along? We deplore this resort to barbarism and crudity.
Two—if you dare sound off like we just did, then you are now a racist or a terrorist.

Obama said that he wanted a sort of end to the acrimony. But once he was elected, we got Eric Holder slurring the nation, the President slurring the police, the environmental jobs czar slurring almost everyone, and a host of satellites like Charles Rangel and Diane Watson leveling charges of racism.

Not So Fast
The problem is that the public is not really stupid and has a long memory. It hates hypocrisy as much as it does crudity. Part of Obama’s decline is precisely because of this sudden disingenuousness in which one rises to the top on hardball, Chicago politics and playing identity politics (remember Rev. Wright, Ayers, “typical white people”, clingers, etc.), and then of course wants an end to the crudity (like hoping the music stops only when you have grabbed that last chair).

And now for a trip down memory lane:

Willravel · 09-15-2009, 03:52 PM

There's one major difference, though: even though godwin's are bad form regardless of circumstances, I can back up the comparison between the last 8 years of Amercain politics and the Nazis much better than any teabegger can between the last 9 months and the Nazis. Is it a direct comparison? Shit no. Still, a comparison including things like the suspension of rights after a terrorist attack, military expansionism, lying to the public in order to support a war, and silencing decent do speak to at least a relative comparison.

BTW, how many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?

dippin · 09-15-2009, 04:09 PM

Im not going to get into the whole "who has more extremists" thing, but I will say that there can be no comparison between opposing Bush and Obama. The day Obama starts a war under false pretenses that leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people we can start comparing reactions. until then, I refuse to play equivalence games with non equivalent things.

FuglyStick · 09-15-2009, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

Stay classy, GOP.

Douchebags.

09-15-2009, 10:15 AM	#48 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	Really, how can you look at such an unreasoned, unthinking opinion and attribute it to anything other than misinformation? If this was a grassroots movement, we'd at least be able to detect some sort of passion out of these people instead of: 1: Lies 2: Truth 1: Oh... I didn't know that. These people are pawns. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-15-2009, 10:31 AM	#50 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	you reap what you sow. conservatives opened themselves up to the far right during the clinton period. the discourse of the populist set drifted well into that region. if you think about it, there's not a whole lot that holds together the defacto coalition of far right groups. this leaves the conservative machine with little space to manoever. add to that the consequences of conservatives actually holding power for 8 years prior to this, and i think the incoherent, paranoid memes that shape the anti-healthcare crowd at least becomes explainable. basically, in my more optimistic moments, i agree with what dc said earlier: we are watching the right eat itself. in my less optimistic moments, i find this whole display a pathetic commentary on what american consumer "democracy" has become. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-15-2009, 10:50 AM	#52 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Whenever I see tea party folks, I can't help but conjure the term "rabble rousers". Which, in my twisted mind, immediately turns to food. mmmmmm, delicious self-righteous anger.... __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

09-15-2009, 12:56 PM	#63 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	10 Lessons for Tea Baggers \| Crooks and Liars I found this to be interesting __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-15-2009, 01:40 PM	#71 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	So, dk, what are your reactions to the link I posted that argued against the many points that the tea baggers rally around? __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals]

09-15-2009, 10:16 AM	#49 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	A republican could run on the "fiscally conservative" platform, but it would be so easily destroyed by the opposition that it wouldn't work. the GOP controlled White House and Congress started us down this path of debt and deficit, and no amount of attempts to rewrite history will make that go away.

09-15-2009, 10:45 AM	#51 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	The problem is that there is a large and significant intersection between the tea party movement and the republican party. It is simply impossible to enact tax cuts without cutting spending on some pretty popular programs, and as such, there is a dilemma of how can one push for tax cuts without harming one's chances in major elections by proposing cuts in popular programs. That is where a lot of the red meat of these protests comes in. As they can't say "cut military spending, medicare, education and social security," they come up with these convenient scapegoats as targets of their collective frustrations. "it's the illegal immigrants," "it's the pork," "it's the welfare queens," "it's money for the damn foreigners," when none of these things, even when taken together, are enough to make up for the deficits...

09-15-2009, 10:56 AM	#54 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Thesaurus: Moron

09-15-2009, 11:14 AM	#56 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I see a bunch of people who are very scared and lashing out. We were told by President Bush and his advisors that we were on the brink of another great depression and must spend billions to bail out Wall Street. We are told by President Obama that because of the irresponsible behavior of the bankers we must spend billions more to avoid catastrophe. Also that without health care reform the country will soon go broke. President Obama is an easy target for many of those angry people. To many he is not really one of us. He is black and has a Muslim name. I believe this too frightens many to extreme rhetoric and yes racism has something to do with it.

09-15-2009, 11:40 AM	#57 (permalink)
kutulu Junkie	I think my favorite part of the video was the part about the czars.

09-15-2009, 12:47 PM	#61 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	You know what'd be nice? If the libertarians took the tea parties back from the moonbats. If some morons were protesting at anti-war protests in my area getting all their facts wrong (and some really did), you better believe I'd be out there immediately so that they don't damage the overall movement.

09-15-2009, 01:07 PM	#66 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	DK I think the biggest problem with your argument right now is that you are assuming these protesters are middle of the road and make up a significant number of middle of the road people. I disagree with this and I believe that these people are generally far right and their views do not accurately represent the majority of this country. Almost every poll I have seen says that a majority (and in many cases a large majority) of Americans support a public option.

09-15-2009, 01:59 PM	#73 (permalink)
Halx Please touch this. Owner/Admin Location: Manhattan	One man can change the world with a bullet in the right place. __________________ You have found this post informative. -The Administrator [Don't Feed The Animals] Last edited by Halx; 09-15-2009 at 02:01 PM..

09-15-2009, 03:52 PM	#78 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	There's one major difference, though: even though godwin's are bad form regardless of circumstances, I can back up the comparison between the last 8 years of Amercain politics and the Nazis much better than any teabegger can between the last 9 months and the Nazis. Is it a direct comparison? Shit no. Still, a comparison including things like the suspension of rights after a terrorist attack, military expansionism, lying to the public in order to support a war, and silencing decent do speak to at least a relative comparison. BTW, how many anti-war leftists turned to murder and domestic terrorism to protest against Bush?

09-15-2009, 04:09 PM	#79 (permalink)
dippin Crazy, indeed Location: the ether	Im not going to get into the whole "who has more extremists" thing, but I will say that there can be no comparison between opposing Bush and Obama. The day Obama starts a war under false pretenses that leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of people we can start comparing reactions. until then, I refuse to play equivalence games with non equivalent things.