flstf

I'm beginning to wonder if some people think it might be better for their political agenda to have a less educated population. Study hard and stay in school indeed. Really it probably just boils down to the fact that some just hate this President and his philosophy and simply want to silence him or at least not give him credit even when his message is something they agree with.

aceventura3

Do you have blind unquestioning faith in the President?

If you ever question the President is it going to be because you "just hate this President and his philosophy and simply want to silence him or at least not give him credit even when his message is something they (you) agree with."?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dippin

That message is actually found on the website where the homework assignments were posted and distributed, and that message was sent to all principals.

roachboy

i read the article, ace, and i simply provided a teaser at the beginning to encourage folk to read it for themselves.
i don't do plot summaries.

i dont think i need to summarize this.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Of course. Anyone seeking public approval for something which is not in the interest of the public has only certain weapons in his or her arsenal: fear, anger, and ignorance. As soon as one or more of these is triggered, fostered, or inspired, the public losses its objectivity and cannot make an informed decision.

Cimarron29414

(face-palm) Referring back to post 121, I was referring to parents who originally saw the homework, but the subject and text were, at the time, unavailable. They could have opted out for the reason I stated in the post you referenced and that would not have been some batshit crazy reason to do so. Once the text came out, I'm certain all reasonable people opted back in to speech. The prevailing contention in this thread is that ANY parent that EVER thought twice about letting their child see Obama's speech is an absolute lunatic. I am simply trying to state that there was a set of circumstances which, for a brief period of time, may have justified exclusion.

Any individual parent who had the opportunity to read the speech and still opted their children out acted in an irrational way. I am certain there were many of them. Yes, I am certain the media interviewed ALL of them. Any school district that didn't show the speech after the text was released was yielding to the irrational parents. They were being politically expedient because they are elected officials. I am certain there were many of them. I am certain the media interviewed ALL of them.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dc_dux

Bottom line for me:

There are serious public policy issues worthy of expressions of opposition.

This speech and the "controversy" surrounding it from the outset was not one of those issues.

IMO, the controversy was pure political theater fueled by partisan extremism.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cimarron29414

...and since you say that it was, it must be true - even though history shows that that information was not readily available to parents and they, therefore opted out of the speech. If the WH had controlled the message, none of this would have happened. (Fifth time repeated.)

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dc_dux

It is a fact that there was nothing in the original lesson plan "peppered with climate change" or any policy issue (for the third time).

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cimarron29414

Perhaps the people that originally opted out were not in any way attempting to "express opposition" but merely keep their kids out of politics (see above posts)? Perhaps it was the media that turned this into "an expression of political opposition fueled by partisan extremism" and not the parents?

(I will repeat that I never pulled my kids from the speech.)

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dc_dux

I would suggest it was parents like the chairman of the Florida Republican party (go back and read his initial press release), Republican members of Congress who played their own "I'm a parent" card, and the bloggers/infotainers (not media) on the right...who collectively attempted to make this "non-issue" a partisan issue.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cimarron29414

I am certain that was the case and a copy of the text at the time the "lesson plan" was prepared would have confirmed that. Control the message (sixth time)

Man, this is FUN!

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

dc_dux

I get it now....a speech by Obama, any speech, and...Republicans scream..."the sky is falling!" (hidden climate change message)

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cimarron29414

OMG, WHAT A SHOCKER! A Republican politician opposed Obama saving a cat stuck in a tree!

---------- Post added at 05:44 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

An isosceles triangle has three sides.

__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead.

"Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

rahl

No. It is a good message.



First, it is an issue of timing. He is giving the message at a time when his favorability ratings are falling. "Kissing babies" is a common political ploy, I don't like it, I think it is the one of the worst things a politician can do.

Second, he gave the children an assignment - write a letter explaining how you can help the President. I found that offensive and contributed to my thought that he was politicizing his message to children.

Third, being from Illinois, Obama as a State Representative and a Senator representing Illinois and one of the worst school districts in the nation (Chicago) I was offended by the thought that he did nothing to improve Chicago schools and now wants to address America's schools

Fourth, Obama is a public official who sends his children to private school.

Fifth, Obama is sending his children to a private school in DC and is not affording the same opportunity to other children in DC through the opportunity scholarship.

Sixth, Duncan his Sec of Education was a patronage appointment in my view.

All of the above offended me. Call me absurd, ignore my thoughts, create your false arguments, blame conservative talking heads, whatever...but Obama has a credibility problem and it is his problem not mine.[/QUOTE]


First: So you feel it's a good message just not right now?
Second: Homework is indoctrination?
Third: Because in your mind he didn't do a good job as state senator for education, he can't do one now?
Fourth:His children go to private school?
Fifth:Idon't even know what this is supposed to mean
Sixth: Duncan was a patronage appointment?

None of these reasons is in anyway rational to the topic at hand. Your only justification for not wanting him to speak to kids is that if enough conservatives give him a hard time over trivial nonsense, he won't be able to do anything more important.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

flstf

No and no.
I understand some of the concerns people have with government control of health care insurance or most anything else for that matter. But I don't understand getting all upset because the President wants to address our school children. No matter who the President is I would assume it would be a message of inspiration. I thought President Bush's speech to children was very good also.

In my opinion these objections to President Obama's speech are way over the top. Also I think he has a compelling personal story of academic and personal success that may just inspire some students to try harder.

dc_dux

Only marginally less childish than the money spent by the Republican Congress in the 90s investigating Clinton's cat, Socks.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

Why did the President bow down to, in the view of many, a completely irrational response to a Present simply giving a pep talk to school children?

Recapping last week:

We had the announcement of the speech, we had the lesson plan. Obama gave the speech, but due to "irrational" pressure released the text of the speech in advance. Due to "irrational" pressure the President backed off of his original lesson plan for the students. Why did he even respond to "irrational" people?

We had the "irrational" Glenn Beck going off on Van Jones for what seemed to be months. The mainstream media ignored the issue until last week. Van Jones resigns due to a conservative "witch hunt", in the middle of the night on a Friday before a long weekend. The President makes no comment and does not support his appointee, he does not express disappointment in Jone's positions. "Irrational" right wingers at it again!

So, the only "win" Obama had was, he actually gave the speech. Otherwise, irrationality ruled the day.

What is worse is you think it is the "mobs" problem.

Is Obama a puppet to irrational people or does he have a backbone? His next opportunity to prove he does is Wednesday. I am betting more vagueness, more of the same, more confusion not less.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

Sorry...I dont live in "ace" world.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

So, why did you conclude others simply don't like the President and that is the basis of their problems with him?

Perhaps, the issue was not just the words in the speech. If you have been reading what has been written (see post #121), you might have a better understanding of the issue.

I agree. I also think Obama has had a positive influence on American politics by getting young people actively involved in politics who would ordinarily not care, I stated that several times over the past year or so. I also think he is a good basketball player for a politician. He has a nice smile. He pronounces his words correctly as opposed to Bush. He has a great family and seems to care for them deeply. He is well groomed (I am not going to add the racist part that came from Biden "for a black man"). And a few other things.

---------- Post added at 10:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:59 PM ----------

No apology needed, I know the world you live in. Enjoy it.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

flstf

His basketball game and grooming habits are not what I was referring to.

I re-read post #121 and I guess you are referring to:
"2) A "homework assignment" was released to the districts which was written in cooperation with the White House which included the question (out of context) "What can I do to help President Obama?" and "What is President Obama asking of me?" No copy of the speech was provided, only the homework assignment."

This should not upset anyone no matter which President asks it. Obvious answers would be "I can help President Obama by staying in school and encouraging my friends to as well and President Obama is asking me to stay in school, study hard and listen to my teachers".

I can't understand why anyone would not just assume the President (no matter who he or she might be) was going to give an inspirational speech to school chiildren.

mixedmedia

What was so offensive about those questions that you couldn't answer them?

If you'd prefer not to answer, I'll just go along with Ace's description here:
...and assume that is the answer.

I just want to understand. Seems now it's a sensitive issue for some reason.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

aceventura3

My view is not complicated and I am surprised with the response. I have a child and the thought of someone exploiting my child or children in general is never something I am going to take lightly. Call me over-protective, call it irrational, I don't care, but if I don't trust a person I am not going to be comfortable with my child being exposed to that person. With that said, I also know there are some people out there who are simply against Obama for whatever their reasons and will use every issue, any issue to try and make him look bad. Obama needs to understand the difference between those with legitimate concerns and those who are simply on the attack. Perhaps, the irony is lost, but in my view Obama was wise to release the speech and to change the lesson plan. But, I still believe he showed a lack of foresight and created his own problem here. When people with rational concerns are grouped with those with irrational concerns it simply angers those with rational concerns.

Most of the people here seem to want to "win" all sides of this issue. For example if the public response was truly irrational, a strong leader does not need to respond to irrationality. If the concerns were truly irrational a strong leader simply gives the speech and follows through with their plan. It is interesting to look at a past President like Nixon. Nixon not only did not respond to the irrational, he did not respond to the rational. Nixon seems to me to be on one extreme (Nixon didn't give a shit), Obama and his administration on the other (constantly complaining about the right and constantly bending to their will). And, you guys here seem to be o.k. with that??? I don't get it.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

The idea that a parent can shield his child from everything he doesn't trust strikes me not as irrational, but more as naive. I only had a few years experience at the parenting thing, but I can tell you that no matter the effort, other influences will get through. The best way to deal with them is to instill values, morals, ethics into your son or daughter so that when he or she is faced with an opinion you may not agree with, he or she can make the determination independently as to whether the opinion is something they agree with or not.

Anyway, there's really nothing specifically in the speech which anyone can claim is in any way bad, so I can't imagine a reasonable justification for being offended by it.

As for it being political: everything the president does is going to be seen as political. Pundits tear into President Obama for eating hamburgers, for christ's sake. What we, as learned and objective people, should strive to do is to separate ourselves from the bullshit. Is this the good kind of political or the bad kind of political?

mixedmedia

and you believe your kids need to be protected from a speech made by the President?

Sorry, I don't find that to be rational. And I don't care who the president is.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

aceventura3

No. I was offended by what I thought his original intent was. I never planed on keeping my son out of school.

Will, my way of responding to my son being exposed to people I don't trust changes as he gets older. In the case of a political issue for a 12 year-old, we talk about it. I ask him questions, my questions help him see all sides of an issue. We do it regularly, he often comes home with one sided liberal ideas. I don't believe in forcing him to share my views or in trying to shelter him - but I do think it important that he enjoys his childhood. One problem from today, (he heard the speech, in real time), is that he understand that he cannot save the world single handedly, the world is not going to end (let you country down, etc.) if you forget to do your homework, although his mother disagrees.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

I didn't read the part of the speech where the weight of the world was put on a child's shoulders, I read more a "you can do your part" kind of thing, and doing his part would be doing his homework, staying in school, etc.

Truly, there's nothing to be upset about concerning this speech. I'm much rather we were spending our time and energy tackling life and death issues than this.

biznatch

So a president is supposed to anticipate fears of the right, which, in a lot of cases, are fabrications and purely irrational? Give me a break.
The President says he's giving a speech to students, what's the absolute worst that can happen to your kids?
Do you cross the street when you see a smoker because you don't think your kid should see cancer-inducing behavior?

__________________
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Paq

just gotta ask...was anyone as happy as i was that there was no 9-11 reference or invocation of god in our schools

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Live.

Chris

Willravel

He didn't even mention ACORN, or talk about wise Latinas. I was almost disappointed.

aceventura3

He talked about "the future of this country depends on you", "the cure of diseases like cancer depend on you", etc. that is a big burden to put on children on their first day of school, and that is something my son picked up on - "we are going to have fix all the problems you (my generation) left for us. Then there were the stories, i.e. one child fought brain cancer since 3 spending 100's of extra hours doing home work to get into college- my son leaves for school at 7:30 am, gets home at 4:00, pays football and had practice at 6:15 to 8:00, has homework and other responsibilities and was in disbelief that a person could have "100's of extra" hours for homework. He needed that to be put in perspective. Those are a few examples of what we talked about.

One of my biggest fears is my son getting "burned out" with school. It is important that there is balance, I know people who "burned out", one person I knew attempted suicide in collage because of academic issues. Again, I am not complaining about the speech, but it required some discussion.

It is interesting, I think if you were one of my son's teachers, we would do a lot of discussing of what you talk about in class everyday without fail. If DC were one of his teachers, I think I would put him in a different school, even if I had to move, even if I had to move to a different state, or move to a state - you know a place were you could actually vote for representation, sorry for that shot, couldn't resist..

---------- Post added at 12:51 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ----------

He should not engage irrational thought. For example Bush never engaged those who claimed he was responsible for 9/11. A President has a responsibility to address legitimate concerns, it is better if he/she anticipates them. When you say something is irrational and then respond to it, something doesn't add up in my book.

I am even amazed by the number of people who make claims about me, my arguments, train of thought, etc., and actually read what I write. If I thought about them what they think about me, I would not waste my time. I don't understand that. after all this is an anonymous forum and I have no power to influence them or them me. I engage people with different views to try and get a better understanding of those views, and I like posting to put my thoughts in writing. I enjoy it.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Willravel

Just fyi, President Obama wasn't charging your son with finding the cure for cancer. He was presenting a real problem to the next generation of doctors and researchers, as a goal to be attempted. Like I said, platitudes. If I were to give a speech to American students, I'd probably include stuff like that, too. "If you work hard and apply yourself, you could become the doctor to cure cancer." It's a nice sentiment, if a bit pie in the sky.

If I were your son's teacher, I'd challenge his beliefs regardless of what they were. If he was a hard left wing progressive, I'd challenge him just as much as I'd challenge Limbaugh Jr. One of my best teachers was my freshman Bio teacher that challenged my position on evolution. She managed to change my position because I hadn't formed a strong position to begin with, and my understanding grew as a direct result of her teaching. That's what teachers are supposed to do in order to create free-thinking, creative, and intelligent adults. I'd be remiss if I didn't do everything I could to teach your son how to learn and how to think for himself. Unless I were a PE teacher. They mostly just make kids to jumping jacks and uncomfortable square dancing. Man was that uncomfortable.

Paq

i hate to say it, but your kids ARE going to have to fix the problems of the previous generation. Most kids get to build on what the previous did...yours will get to undo a lot of the f**ked up stuff that has been going on. that's not 'pie in the sky' or a 'sentiment' or a 'burden'..it's the honest truth.

__________________
Live.

Chris

Willravel

Visual summary of the speech:
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_kRBjeapDKT...ion+speech.jpg

pan6467

Quoted for truth.

I still stick by original assessment and question, If this was so important and not a political ploy and pandering and trying to get to the parents through the children..... then why not have it done later so that parents could attend with their children?????

The president "giving homework" to elementary students while we are at war, our economy is falling apart, our infrastructure is decrepit and needs serious work, the country is extremely divided in so many ways, crime is increasing, drug use is increasing, wages are decreasing, we are bailing out the ultra rich and costing our future generations to live with those costs, the citizens are being told to shut up and are flat assed ignored.... and Obama blames all of that on W.

What's Obama's solution.... address the kids about staying in school and letting them know he was once like them... of course his kids aren't, they go to private schools and well, he was educated where exactly???? What public schools did he go to??? But he was just like that kid in the inner cities and rural areas.

But lying to kids and trying to tell them you were just like them without telling them the whole truth, is a good thing, it's not politicizing and trying to win kids over, not at all.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

That Reagan never did this?

Marvelous Marv

No, it's because you're a racist, of course.

I need someone to explain why Obama had to feed his colossal ego by barging in on school hours, rather than making his speech in the evening. If you believe his sycophants, it was impossible for kids to hear his speech unless it was presented during school hours, and it could never be pulled up on the web.

__________________
"The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money."
Margaret Thatcher

dippin

Is that kind of like discussing this bullshit while we are at war, etc, etc.?



Last I checked, no one said this was his "solution."

This faux outrage is getting ridiculous. It was one speech. One speech in thousands that every president will give.

filtherton

Getting low on the list of talking points are we?

mixedmedia

This is insane. People have absolutely gone insane, yet they continue to walk around free. It's totally fucking frightening.

__________________
Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce