FuglyStick

Again, fuck 'em. Obama has tried to treat the GOP like adults, and the GOP has responded with temper tantrums, so fuck 'em. W sure as hell didn't give a fuck about the minority opinion; why should Obama have to contend with the malcontents? W's whole argument was he was given a "mandate;" hey, GOP, suck on this "mandate."

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

aceventura3

My point is to illustrate the difference between a leader who is on point and stays on point. Obama seems to create his own problems by sending mixed messages. I am for health care reform, and I could support what DC showed as Obama's guiding principles.

So, why don't I support what he wants to do? My feeling is that he deviates from his message creating too much confusion.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

flstf

I must admit that I am also skeptical of some of the health care debate on both sides of the issue. Both Democrats and Republicans seem to be ignoring the 5000 lb gorilla in the room which is over use of health care providers in many cases.

Just a little googling turns up some amazing statistics, like the average number of prescriptions filled per capita each year is now over 12. That's like 48 for a typical family of four not to mention the doctor visits required. President Obama did mention an effort to cut back on unnecessary tests and there appears to be data indicating defensive practices by doctors because of lawsuits as well as pressure on hospitals to use (pay for) expensive diagnostic equipment.

Any mention of trying to cut back on these things brings up cries of rationing and neither party wants to be accused if that. I suspect a real honest discussion of these things may be politically impossible at this point. Just look at the Republicans "Seniors Bill of Rights" issued last week calling for no rationing or death panels. People are letting their emotions control the debate. The President may be criticized for not being forceful enough but in his defense there are many special interests fanning the flames.

aceventura3

The truth of the matter is that medical resources do need to be rationed. I think people realize that and understand it, but the folks in Washington can not seem to be honest about it. All I really want is to understand how they are going to do it. What are the priorities? who makes the decisions? What appeals does a person have? My support of a plan will depend on the answers, but before we can even start asking those questions there has to be more honesty.

There is no doubt in my mind that I would spare no resource for children. From there I would want my parents (or all seniors) to be well cared for and end life in dignity according to there wishes. Then I start to have problems based on my biases, for example I have little sympathy for drug and alcohol abusers, people who choose not to be productive members of society (criminals, able bodied men not willing to work, etc.). And, on the other hand I have a problem with people who would want to give me "incentives" to not eat the things I may want, like cinnamon rolls, apple pie, bacon, etc. So I have mixed feelings.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

rahl

Eating things like cinnamon rolls, apple pie and bacon is the same thing as abusing drugs or alcohol. Both are unhealthy and both are conscious choices. If you are against one you have to be against both. Can't have it both ways

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

flstf

I disagree that people understand that medical resources need to be rationed. Many are upset just at the mention of it and some can be seen screaming at town halls. The Republicans even included no rationing in their "Seniors Bill of Rights.

Also I think this carries over even for children. As I understand it something like 10% are diagnosed with AHDH every year with about 4% to 5% prescribed the drug Ritalin. So in every classroom there are about a couple of kids taking this drug. I'm no expert but could it be that young kids with a lot of energy are just figity sometimes.

hotandheavy

At Michele Bachmann's TH last Thursday, it was the libs throwing barbs and trying to start shit. I'm afraid that the conservatives showing up to the Dem's town halls are doing the same thing. With that attitude, nothing is going to get done. It is a sad state of affairs and it is no wonder that our country is having the issues that it is currently.

aceventura3

That is my point. I like what I like, others like what they like - I should not be the judge of them nor they be the judge of me - these are really private matters. My gut tells me government simply should not be involved, so to those who suggest government should be, how do they suggest government do it? In the private sector there is choice. Note: I do not believe that if there was a "government option" that it would lead to more choice, in the end we would only have one choice in my view and that would be the government option.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Derwood

your view is wrong and not based on facts. or is this another "emotional response" to an issue?

aceventura3

I think they understand it, and I think there fear is don't take away from me to give to others. I think (non-judgmental - it is what it is) the problem in this country is that most of us are self centered, perhaps that is why we will never see universal health care.

Also, I think it angers people when politicians stand up a pretend we can do everything for everybody without sacrifice, or that we can do it by only taxing the "rich". Most know that is bull.

Humans, especially little boys, were not made to sit without activity for hours and hours at a time. Boys need to be boys - they need to run, fight, scream, play with bugs, get dirty, etc. - let them do that and it becomes much easier to live with them. My first wife never really understood that, but my current wife does.

---------- Post added at 04:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:18 PM ----------

Pure emotion.

It is an emotional issue to me, I can't separate emotion out of it. Can you? How do you do it?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

ace...perhaps that is why some find it difficult and frustrating to engage you in the issue.

You complain that Obama showed no clear vision comparing it to Kennedy/the moon and Bush/Iraq. When the vision is pointed out to you, you agree with the vision, but dont like his leadership style..and play the irrelevant FDR card.

Its simple...you dont like the Democratic proposals....that doesnt make them fraudulent..at the same time, you show no willingness to acknowledge the fraudulent demagoguery by the opposition.

I give Obama credit for trying to build consensus...evidently that is not leadership to you or the Republicans in Congress. They have shown no willingness to engage unless they get every thing they want..they, like you, would rather criticize than work together towards a solution.

Its time for the Democrats to forge ahead....resolve their own differences between the liberal wing and the blue dogs and to hell with the Republicans.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

Honesty?

Obama has been all over the place on this issue and you think it is my problem, even after I agree we need reform? Perhaps, it is clear to you. All I am saying it is not clear to me. Given the magnitude of the issue I am not going to give him the benefit of the doubt. In my book he needed a disciplined message, he needed to transmit that to his party and then to the nation. If he had, I bet he would have gotten what he wanted.

I can give reasons, I can list my concerns, I ask questions, I read what people like you say, and I get "you don't like Democratic proposals..." - so it is that simple?

The fraud is based on the dishonesty. The fraud is based on the strategy to rush an il conceived plan through before the nation had an opportunity to understand it, ask questions, etc.

I know you don't read everything I write, but I did state that there are those who have adapted a strategy simply to disrupt anything Obama wants to do. I also said this should not be a surprise to Obama or anyone else. I stated there are those who simply throw "everything" out there just to see what sticks. However, there are also those with legitimate concerns and questions. Wisdom is knowing the difference.


I give him credit for being a good basketball player. Neither is relevant at the end of the day.

As Yoda says: "there is no try. There is do and there is not do." Yoda was a very wise Jedi.



That is a good start, or would have been a good start. Obama should have used his leadership to get consensus within his party before all these TH meetings and all the confusion. With that approach, ironically, he would have won over centrist Republicans - because centrist Republicans and centrist Democrats are not that different.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

rahl

Ace you specifically said that you have a problem with people who abuse drugs or alcohol, then you said you have a problem with others who might have a problem with the things you eat. You can't have it both ways. Either you punish all bad choices in healthcare or none.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

dc_dux

ace....politics in the US does not operate on Jedi principles. The rest is your same old rehashed gibberish regardless of the issue.

Once again, taking all of your recent posts here, you're all over the map.

I honesty dont know how to engage you further..particularly when you have made it clear that your emotions dictate your responses and it doesnt matter to you if those emotions get in the way of the facts.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

aceventura3

I said I had mixed feelings on the issue. What more do you want? I thought I made the conflict clear. It is a conflict. I think many have the same problem, even if they don't admit it.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

rahl

In your mind why would punishing smoking or alcohol be ok? Why would the same principle not apply to eating mcdonalds 4 times a day?

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

aceventura3

O.k., for the record there are no real Jedis, and I know that. The wisdom as presented by this fictional character was not created by George Lucas. the priciple presented is as old as time (figurative not literal). this type of wisdom has driven a lot of the progress of the human race.

Got thousands of questions, and thousands of follow ups. Stated that. Also stated it is an emotional issue for me. Also stated the mixed feelings I have, i.e. - willingness to have single payer system but not trusting government. the difference is that I am not selling my plan to Obama, Obama is trying to sell his plan, to me.

My only advise is that If I cause you problems don't engage me. That is what I generally do in life. I either confront things head on or I avoid them. Keep it simple.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:25 PM ----------

Would this be trolling? Kinda going off topic. I am more than happy to address this but I think I would be accused of something bad, like trolling, or going all over the place, circular logic, emotion, making others uncomfortable, etc.. Probably already guilty.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

rahl

Would this be trolling? Kinda going off topic. I am more than happy to address this but I think I would be accused of something bad, like trolling, or going all over the place, circular logic, emotion, making others uncomfortable, etc.. Probably already guilty.[/QUOTE]

Why is it so hard to answer a direct question with a direct answer. You made a statement, I called you on it, then you changed your position, I called you on it again and now your try to avoid the question.

Ace every now and then you do raise some good points, but when it comes to asking you questions for which you have no answers you panic and change subject.

__________________
"Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

Derwood

I can have an emotional response to the issue (compassion for the uninsured, for example, or frustration with those who oppose UHC based on selfish reasons).

I can also have non-emotional responses to the FACTS contained in the proposed bill.

You seem to conflate the two.

Saying "I have a gut feeling that Obama's government option plan will lead to a single payer system" is not an emotional response. It's projecting your fears/biases onto something where there are no facts to support it.

It would be like me saying "I support Obama's plan because my gut tells me that if it passes, we'll all get a free pony."

aceventura3

It is not.

I am confused by what you say "called you on it". I pointed out a bias and conflict that I am fully aware of. I am not sure what you want. I have a bias that is based on my feelings. I don't think it is fair, I don;t think it is reasonable for me to be subjected to the biases of others, nor them to mine. My conclusion is that perhaps government should not be involved. I don't know how government can reasonably referee this. Do you?

I get accused of so many bad things it is difficult for me to keep them all straight.

---------- Post added at 04:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:13 PM ----------

This is what I do not know how to do. This is what I think is not possible to do. Even if I am presented with a simple math problem, 2+2=4, I have an emotional response, I get a good feeling knowing the answer, I get a positive response to the concept of addition, meaning growth, expansion. It brings back memories of primary education and makes me feel good. I don't know how you can look at facts/information devoid of emotional response.

True.

I gave justification for my view. The justification is based on my observations and knowledge of economic and business systems. True, I can not predict the future with certainty, but I can project expected results in an informed manner.

The probability of that would be close to zero, however, I think the probability of a government option restricting choice in the private sector is much greater than zero and is high enought for reasonable people to be concerned (assuming they care) and I actually think overtime is close certainty. and I clearly state it is my view and that is not a "fact". On the other hand are you suggesting the opposite is a "fact"? If true what is the difference between what you are doing and what I am doing?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."