08-13-2009, 12:38 PM | #161 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Ohio
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Quote:
If there were a single payor system in the U.S. and we had to spread the risk of everyone in the country the premiums(taxes) wouldn't be fair or reflective of the individuals risk level, just like group coverage at work |
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08-13-2009, 12:48 PM | #162 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
Again, why are you afraid of this model?
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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08-13-2009, 12:52 PM | #163 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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the "model" is a fantasy. i don't think anyone's afraid of it--i'm certainly not. but it's irrelevant to the present debate. it is not a viable counter-model. what it amounts to is acquiescing to the present system while pretending to yourself you're doing something else.
advocating this position is self-exclusion. it's as if a debate is happening inside a building and you're in an adjacent park talking about how nice the park is. all it's doing in this context is getting in the way of a coherent conversation about actual problems and plausible ways to address them.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
08-13-2009, 03:03 PM | #164 (permalink) |
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Really? REALLY? So if a poor person in State X suddenly has all of their government assistance yanked out from under them, you think they'd have the means to just up and relocate somewhere else? Dude, come on....
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08-13-2009, 06:00 PM | #165 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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cause all those mexicans coming over the border have oodles and oodles of cash, freakin' big old suitcases and backpacks full. not everyone pays off a coyote, many walk across the deserts... I know many who have done both, and I met them in New York City. Hmmmm... gee. They made it.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
08-13-2009, 06:32 PM | #166 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Actually, illegal immigrants contribute quite a bit to the economy. They work for such low wages that their contributions to the work force are more efficient. Would you pick grapes for $4 a day? I wouldn't. Yet you and I both purchase cheap grapes picked by illegal workers and are happy with the low cost. I suspect that if grapes went for $11 per pound, neither of us would have as many.
/threadjack |
08-14-2009, 05:22 AM | #167 (permalink) |
Darth Papa
Location: Yonder
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If it would shut these absurd protesters up, then fine. Let 'em have Texas. Well, maybe not Austin. But the rest of the state. Hell, I'll even throw in New Mexico. Let the insurance business become 60%, 80% of the economy of those states, God bless. If it means the protestors will shut the fuck up and the rest of us can enjoy a single-payer health care system like most other civilized nations in the world? By all means.
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08-14-2009, 05:49 AM | #168 (permalink) | ||
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
---------- Post added at 09:49 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 AM ---------- Quote:
__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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08-14-2009, 05:50 AM | #169 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
ratbastid, why does it get to be states of your choosing? why can't the states themselves decide? again, that's what I believe much of the crux of the issue is.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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08-14-2009, 05:55 AM | #170 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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08-14-2009, 06:06 AM | #171 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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I just dont get the libertarian mindset.....dreaming about a governmental/economic system that has never existed anytime and anyplace in the world.
Yet you want to apply it to the US? No government regulation? No government social safety net? No government role in R&D? Just leave us the hell alone and the country and the world will be a better place? There is a reason why libertarians have such a (relatively) small following.
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
08-14-2009, 06:10 AM | #172 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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actually DC, that's not what I'm implying at all. I'm implying a matter of choice.
California has plenty of government R&D in in the computers and aircraft when I was growing up. There are government social safety nets in place, want to expand them and grow them, great! Do so. Regulation? There should have been left in place for banking... As a person who's parents emigrated from another country and similarly I left my birthstate for similar reasons, to gain more opportunity and a better quality of life... it's all about choices and consequences of those choices for me.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
08-14-2009, 06:23 AM | #173 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Quote:
Despite the conservative/libertarian rhetoric and fear mongering, there is no single-payer, government-controlled, socialist type system under consideration. There is choice in every proposed bill, including a government-administered option (to complete with a private option) in the House bill, that is not likely to even be considered in one Senate proposal.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-14-2009 at 06:31 AM.. |
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08-14-2009, 06:53 AM | #175 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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and so here we are again in another little performance of how it is that the debate about health care gets derailed then stalled by the Officially Sanctioned Collective ADD brought to you by your pals in the insurance industry and their media shills on the right.
way to be reflexive, comrades, and not just enact what the op is asking about. sheesh.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
08-14-2009, 06:56 AM | #176 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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you forgot the Francis.
the quote is: Sergeant Hulka: Lighten up, Francis.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
08-14-2009, 07:03 AM | #177 (permalink) | ||
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
As to choice, it's a matter of arithmetic. If a company pays 15% for private insurance, yet their "penalty" for not providing insurance will be 8% (it's in the bill) - they will drop the private, force their employees to public, and enjoy a 7% gain in income. Enough companies do this and private doesn't have enough base to survive. That puts 10s of millions more people on the public option and less and less competition (choice). Immediately the public system is strained and taxes must be raised. Immediately, the doctors make less money for the same service because medicare (the current system) and the public option (the future system) pays significantly less to the doctor than private insurance. So, the doctors are willing to see less and less new patients on public in leiu of their private customers. This naturally rations care, reduces choice (of doctors), delays diagnosis, and causes more expensive treatment due to decreased early detection and prevention. This is a perfectly rational argument against the private option. The fact is, there is not one word about tort reform in these bills. Wonder why that is? (53% of congress are lawyers, and the president...) ---------- Post added at 11:03 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:01 AM ---------- Quote:
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Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 08-14-2009 at 07:05 AM.. |
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08-14-2009, 07:25 AM | #178 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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if you read the post you quoted, cimarron, you'd have understood that i didn't say *avoid* i said *enact the problem*--and by *enacting the problem* i meant grinding a coherent debate to a halt with a series of "plans" based entirely in some libertarian fantasy world and insisting that they be understood as actual plans, when the fact is they aren't.
this is now officially tiresome.
__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
08-14-2009, 07:30 AM | #179 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Quote:
Citing a handful of legislators who want a single payer system doesnt change the fact that the general proposal that Obama offered to Congress and the current bills under consideration are nowhere close to a single payer system. There is no socialist type plan in the works. Scare tactics.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-14-2009 at 07:35 AM.. |
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08-14-2009, 07:45 AM | #180 (permalink) | ||
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
He clearly states that the goal is to create a public option that will eliminate the private option in 10,15,20 years. ---------- Post added at 11:45 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:44 AM ---------- Quote:
__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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08-14-2009, 07:48 AM | #181 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Quote:
Nothing in the current House bill resembles a "socialist" type single payer system.....the Senate is likely to not even include a public option. Scare tactics.
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-14-2009 at 08:01 AM.. |
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08-14-2009, 07:59 AM | #182 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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08-14-2009, 08:02 AM | #183 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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Quote:
BTW.. he is planning to take away your guns as well.
__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 08-14-2009 at 08:05 AM.. |
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08-14-2009, 08:15 AM | #184 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Detroit, MI
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Why does one HAVE to have health insurance though? Why will it be illegal not to have it? Could it be the extra money taken out of one's paycheck going to the government? Is it a trick disguised to avoid "raising taxes" yet extracting more money from the citizenry under alternative pretenses? Is it a trap?
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08-14-2009, 08:25 AM | #185 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
I'm done. You guys have it all figured out.
__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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08-14-2009, 09:22 AM | #186 (permalink) | ||
Junkie
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Quote:
---------- Post added at 10:22 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ---------- Quote:
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08-14-2009, 09:25 AM | #187 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." |
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08-14-2009, 09:34 AM | #188 (permalink) |
Junkie
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You're talking out of you fucking ass and you know it. In today's world you can be perfectly healthy and some freak occurrence can occur that will result in injuries that cost more than an average person will make over the course of a lifetime. Don't even fucking act like things are the same as they used to be.
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08-14-2009, 09:40 AM | #190 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: France
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You know exactly what he means. I doubt they had health insurance back then.
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Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread |
08-14-2009, 09:46 AM | #191 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Quote:
---------- Post added at 10:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:44 AM ---------- It's amusing to hear people complain about the fear of rationing. We are rationing right now when insurance companies deny coverage and they don't seem to mind. |
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08-14-2009, 10:03 AM | #192 (permalink) | |
Still Free
Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!
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Quote:
Since modern health insurance didn't come in to existence until the late 20th century, how on earth did we get so far in medical science for those first 150 years without the "constitutionally-mandated", government-involved healthcare? By your rationale, we should have had the same medical standards and practices as Washington and Franklin until health insurance came into existence. The facts don't seem to jive with your assertion. The question is not "what was it like before health insurance?" The question is "what was it like before the government got involved in health care?" The first question above maintains the spirit of the constitution, the second is where the constitution gets squashed. Oh, and I didn't say "fuck" so, well, now I have. Just trying to maintain the spirit of the dialog.
__________________
Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly." Last edited by Cimarron29414; 08-14-2009 at 10:34 AM.. |
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08-14-2009, 10:24 AM | #194 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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really? last time I heard, pedestrians, bicycle riders, and people without driver's licenses aren't required to have auto insurance. In fact, the years I didn't own a car I saved much more than Geico touts, since I saved 100% of my insurance costs by not having a car.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
08-14-2009, 11:02 AM | #196 (permalink) | |
Junkie
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Quote:
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08-14-2009, 11:20 AM | #197 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: France
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Quote:
__________________
Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread |
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08-14-2009, 11:28 AM | #198 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Quote:
There's nothing about life where it's supposed to be "and they lived happily ever after." Life is hard, unequal, and unfair. Maybe we should make sure that those Africans that Mrs. Clinton is visiting have healthcare in the next 20 years too. Because you know, it's a human right by the statements said here. more to add to the auto insurance analogy, driving is a privilege, not a right.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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08-14-2009, 12:02 PM | #200 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: Ventura County
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I doubt people are going to take the time to fact check some of the statements coming from the President regarding health insurance companies.
Talk about scare tactics, for example today the President is going on about how insurance companies will scour your application to find a reason to deny coverage when you get sick. Legally an insurance company has two years to cancel a policy for a material misrepresentation on the original application. After that two year period they are bound to provide coverage. Also, the misrepresentation has to be "material". Another example, the President is saying insurance companies are not regulated and that no one is overseeing their actions. Every insurance company is regulated and bound by requirements of each state's laws regarding insurance companies.
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"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers." |
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