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genuinegirly 08-04-2009 08:14 AM
Bill Clinton Meets Kim Jong-il
 
Is Bill Clinton overstepping his bounds?
Should a former president take on a role as a diplomat?
Give me successful examples of former heads of state making progress in similar situations.

I've shortened the following article for brevity's sake. Here's a link to the full article from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/05/wo...ef=global-home

Quote:
August 5, 2009
Bill Clinton Meets Kim Amid Talks on 2 Journalists
By CHOE SANG-HUN, MARK LANDLER and PETER BAKER
SEOUL, South Korea — Former President Bill Clinton met on Tuesday with Kim Jong-il, the reclusive and ailing leader of North Korea, while on a visit to negotiate the release of two imprisoned American television journalists, North Korean state media reported.

The high-level meeting, along with welcoming gestures from the regime, added to speculation among analysts in Seoul that North Korea, after months of raising tensions and hostile rhetoric towards Washington, may be ready to return to dialogue with Washington.

Accompanying Mr. Clinton was John Podesta, who was his last chief of staff at the White House and is now an informal adviser to the Obama administration. Mr. Podesta, the president of the Center for American Progress, a research organization in Washington, is an influential player in Democratic policy circles. Mr. Clinton also brought longtime personal aides, including Douglas Band.

Kang Sok-ju, the first vice foreign minister and Mr. Kim’s most trusted adviser on Pyongyang’s relations with Washington, attended the meeting, and later in the evening the North’s National Defense Commission, the country’s top governing agency chaired by Mr. Kim, hosted a dinner party for Mr. Clinton, state media reported.

Mr. Clinton flew into Pyongyang, the North Korean capital, in an unmarked jet early Tuesday morning local time, Central TV, a North Korean station, reported. The White House confirmed the visit on Tuesday, but said it was a private mission.

“While this solely private mission to secure the release of two Americans is on the ground, we will have no comment,” Mr. Gibbs said in a statement. “We do not want to jeopardize the success of former President Clinton’s mission.”

Mr. Clinton’s trip was intensely monitored in the region as well as in Washington. The last time an American official met with Mr. Kim was in October 2000, when Secretary of State Madeleine K. Albright, Mr. Clinton’s top envoy, traveled to Pyongyang. Mr. Kim reportedly suffered a stroke last August, raising uncertainty about the health and the future of his regime.

Television footage from Pyongyang showed Mr. Clinton being greeted at the airport by North Korean officials including the chief nuclear negotiator Kim Kye-gwan and Yang Hyong-sop, the vice parliamentary speaker. The footage showed him smiling and bowing as a young girl presented him with flowers.

The Obama administration had been considering for weeks whether to send a special envoy to North Korea. The visit by Mr. Clinton, even if officially a private effort, was clearly undertaken with the blessings of the White House, and marked his first diplomatic mission abroad on behalf of the administration. Mr. Clinton’s wife, Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, has been deeply involved in the journalists’ case.

kutulu 08-04-2009 09:00 AM
The last paragraph of the quote is key. This isn't a truly private visit. He has the full support of the White House, therefore I don't see how he can be overstepping his bounds.

It doesn't matter if previous former POTUSs have done similar things. There is no rule that states a POTUS can't continue to be a resource to a current administration. Past success/failure is irrelevant.

Cynthetiq 08-04-2009 09:46 AM
I see confusion in this. Since Hillary is currently Secretary of State, I believe if anyone should be jockeying for the reporters it should be her. Since she's off attending to other issues, Bill seems like to me, stepping in her stead, but via the auspices of "president."

Cimarron29414 08-04-2009 10:02 AM
Bill Clinton had more success than any other U.S. diplomat at getting the N.K.s to talk. Since there are two lives at stake, I have no problem with this. If he promises to build them better missiles in exchange for the girls, then I have a problem with it. I certainly hope, since CEOs now have to pay for their lunch at the White House, that these two reporters will get the bill for their release, once secured.

kutulu 08-04-2009 10:09 AM
Are you joking or do you really think the govt should send them a bill for this?

snowy 08-04-2009 10:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2681520)
I see confusion in this. Since Hillary is currently Secretary of State, I believe if anyone should be jockeying for the reporters it should be her. Since she's off attending to other issues, Bill seems like to me, stepping in her stead, but via the auspices of "president."
Hilary has had absolutely no luck with the North Koreans (she's "funny" [not in a good way] and "unintelligent", remember?), and Bill has had success in the past with them. I think it's great that we have someone like Bill Clinton that 1) the rest of the world really likes and 2) can deal with these sorts of tough situations. We should be using him instead of letting him sit on the sidelines. I think we are doing the right thing here, regardless of any confusion.

kutulu 08-04-2009 11:46 AM
He got the job done.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AP
SEOUL, South Korea – North Korean leader Kim Jong Il has issued a "special pardon" to two American journalists convicted of sneaking into the country illegally, and he ordered them released during a visit by former U.S. President Bill Clinton, North Korean media reported Tuesday.

The release of Laura Ling and Euna Lee was a sign of North Korea's "humanitarian and peaceloving policy," the Korean Central News Agency reported.

Clinton, who arrived in North Korea earlier in the day on an unannounced visit, met with the reclusive and ailing Kim — his first meeting with a prominent Western figure since his reported stroke nearly a year ago.

North Korea accused Ling, 32, and Lee, 36, of sneaking into the country illegally in March and engaging in "hostile acts," and the nation's top court sentenced them in June to 12 years of hard labor.

THIS IS A BREAKING NEWS UPDATE. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below.

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) — North Korea's official news agency says leader Kim Jong Il has pardoned two American journalists and ordered their release.

The official Korean Central News Agency said early Wednesday from Pyongyang that the order was issued following a request from former President Bill Clinton.

Clinton flew to the North Korean capital on Tuesday on a mission to negotiate the release of Laura Ling and Euna Lee, reporters for former Vice President Al Gore's Current TV media venture.

Rekna 08-04-2009 12:02 PM
damn that was quick. I wonder if the right is still going to say how big of a mistake sending Bill was....

Cimarron29414 08-04-2009 12:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kutulu (Post 2681555)
Are you joking or do you really think the govt should send them a bill for this?
Why not? If we can't even afford to pay for lunches of invited White House guests, imagine the cost surrounding this unnecessary rescue attempt! These women intentionally snuck into a sovereign nation and got caught. They committed a crime against that nation. We spent huge amounts of government resources to earn a freedom they did not deserve (until they paid their dues to the nation to which they committed the crime.)

When the EMS comes and saves your ass, do they not send you a bill? Yep.
When the Search and Rescue find you lost in the woods, do they not send you a bill? Yep.

How is this different? What, is it because the DPRK is "evil"????

Rekna 08-04-2009 01:23 PM
In Cimarron's utopian world the fire trucks come built in with a credit card machine.

Cynthetiq 08-04-2009 01:40 PM
no but there are countys and cities where the fire men are all volunteers and paid for by donations, not by city monies.

Rekna 08-04-2009 01:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2681738)
no but there are countys and cities where the fire men are all volunteers and paid for by donations, not by city monies.
which works in very small communities. I'd like to see that work in NYC. Let's face it people are more likely to risk their lives and give up their time to help someone they know and care about.

Cynthetiq 08-04-2009 01:48 PM
Hatzalah works in NYC, and competes with the FDNY for emergency call responses. First one with their foot in the door gets the money.

Chevra Hatzalah Volunteer Ambulance Corps, Inc.

and no, my friends who do EMS volunteer do not help someone they know or care about, it's about doing service for the community at large.

Rekna 08-04-2009 01:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2681752)
Hatzalah works in NYC, and competes with the FDNY for emergency call responses. First one with their foot in the door gets the money.

Chevra Hatzalah Volunteer Ambulance Corps, Inc.

and no, my friends who do EMS volunteer do not help someone they know or care about, it's about doing service for the community at large.
I thought we were talking about volunteer services. If they get paid it is not volunteer.

From reading about this service it sounds great but I bet they couldn't do the whole city alone. Nor could they do the whole country.

Cynthetiq 08-04-2009 02:03 PM
it's volunteer, read the site.

The city will pay the first responder as part of costs. I'm not familiar with all the workings of it, but I know that they do get the award for arriving there first. The ORGANIZATION gets the money, the volunteers are just volunteers. Each ambulance costs about $1M to outfit and there's a cost to maintain.

As far as billing the rescued, FDNY will send you to collections if you don't pay, Hatzalah will not.

Rekna 08-04-2009 02:09 PM
Good then they provide a great service. Perhaps we should require all of our hospitals and fire services to be all volunteer. That will do wonders for our health care system.... Anyway we are way off topic.

It is great to see that Bill was able to secure their release.

Charlatan 08-04-2009 04:15 PM
I think this is a great use for ex-presidents. Especially, in this case, as Clinton (Bill) has a good track record in working with North Korea.

Reese 08-05-2009 02:31 AM
Bill Clinton is like Rambo or some shit just marching into a country that rescuing two people just like that. GG Bill.

SirSeymour 08-05-2009 07:05 AM
I have no issue with using Bill for this sort of thing and I am thrilled we got these girls out, however, it seems to me that we played right into Kim's hands. It is what he wanted all along and effectively let him use these two girls as hostages in order to gain high level US engagement with them on their turf. The speed with which these two were released is just evidence of it to me. For a country that supposedly doesn't pay ransom for hostage release it sure seems to me we paid this time. Money isn't the only currency in the world.

Cimarron29414 08-05-2009 07:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna (Post 2681727)
In Cimarron's utopian world the fire trucks come built in with a credit card machine.
Actually, it's a pre-pay system called property taxes. I wouldn't expect a logical objection from you, though. In Rekna's utopian world, everything is "free" which gives us all time to dance naked in fields singing kumbaya.

Rekna 08-05-2009 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cimarron29414 (Post 2682221)
Actually, it's a pre-pay system called property taxes. I wouldn't expect a logical objection from you, though. In Rekna's utopian world, everything is "free" which gives us all time to dance naked in fields singing kumbaya.
What about people that live in apartments? They don't pay property tax. Also this came up because you want to bill these girls for their rescue. Have they not paid taxes?

SirSeymour 08-05-2009 07:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna (Post 2682225)
What about people that live in apartments? They don't pay property tax. Also this came up because you want to bill these girls for their rescue. Have they not paid taxes?
They do pay property taxes. It is called "rent" which the property owner then uses to pay the property taxes.

Cimarron29414 08-05-2009 07:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rekna (Post 2682225)
What about people that live in apartments? They don't pay property tax. Also this came up because you want to bill these girls for their rescue. Have they not paid taxes?
If you have to ask the first question, there really isn't a point in continuing this conversation.

What about the CEOs at the White House lunch? Do they not pay taxes?

biznatch 08-06-2009 11:36 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cimarron29414 (Post 2682234)
What about the CEOs at the White House lunch? Do they not pay taxes?
They pay taxes to pay for the system which allows them to be on top. They can afford their own lunch.

Bill O'Rights 08-06-2009 03:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlatan (Post 2681837)
I think this is a great use for ex-presidents. Especially, in this case, as Clinton (Bill) has a good track record in working with North Korea.
Agreed. Jimmy Carter's been doing it for years. It gives them something to do and helps to keep them off of the streets. Kinda like the Boy's Club for ex-presidents.

Speaking of Jimmy...didn't Bill raise a rucus when Jimmy wanted to go talk with the North Koreans? I seem to remember something along those lines.

Cynthetiq 08-06-2009 06:19 PM
Bill was at our office today and today was the day I was up in a different office. I missed the circus

genuinegirly 08-06-2009 07:05 PM
Crazy, Cyn! Were there any remnants of your Peeps Invasion in sight?

dy156 08-06-2009 09:27 PM
America seems to finally be using her ex-presidents in a productive manner.

Seriously- besides some "rogue" missions to Haiti and giving a boost to Habitat for Humanity by Carter, ex-presidents were a completely wasted national resource (except for Saturday Night Live cartoons) until Poppa Bush and Clinton worked together on the Asian Tsunami relief fund. Like it or not, both Bush and Clinton know more and command far more respect than regular diplomats, and they can both do more good for our country (and the rest of the world) than they can chasing tail and doing crossword puzzles, or throwing out 1st pitches or jogging around Highland Park and Memorial. I hope we use them more often.

Cynthetiq 08-07-2009 05:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dy156 (Post 2683481)
America seems to finally be using her ex-presidents in a productive manner.

Seriously- besides some "rogue" missions to Haiti and giving a boost to Habitat for Humanity by Carter, ex-presidents were a completely wasted national resource (except for Saturday Night Live cartoons) until Poppa Bush and Clinton worked together on the Asian Tsunami relief fund. Like it or not, both Bush and Clinton know more and command far more respect than regular diplomats, and they can both do more good for our country (and the rest of the world) than they can chasing tail and doing crossword puzzles, or throwing out 1st pitches or jogging around Highland Park and Memorial. I hope we use them more often.
So it would be okay for GWB to do things in the upcoming years too right?

dc_dux 08-07-2009 05:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2683582)
So it would be okay for GWB to do things in the upcoming years too right?
Certainly, it would be okay. I agree that former presidents can serve such useful purposes in particular circumstances.

The question is if he would be received as well, given the fact that the respect around the world for GWB was so abysmally low. I recall several polls where former president Putin commanded more respect on the world stage than GWB.

Cimarron29414 08-07-2009 06:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by biznatch (Post 2683157)
They pay taxes to pay for the system which allows them to be on top. They can afford their own lunch.
Of course that's your answer. No one has EVER risen to the top through hard work. They've only gotten there by lying, cheating, and stealing.

biznatch 08-08-2009 12:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cimarron29414 (Post 2683689)
Of course that's your answer. No one has EVER risen to the top through hard work. They've only gotten there by lying, cheating, and stealing.
Excuse me, but where in my post did I mention lying, stealing, cheating?
Don't put words in my mouth, go read the post again.
All I said is that the only reason they're on top is that this society allows it. It doesn't mean its bad or good, its just the way it is. I made no judgment on them in my post, I said that they can pay for their own food.

Cimarron29414 08-10-2009 05:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by biznatch (Post 2684532)
Excuse me, but where in my post did I mention lying, stealing, cheating?
Don't put words in my mouth, go read the post again.
All I said is that the only reason they're on top is that this society allows it. It doesn't mean its bad or good, its just the way it is. I made no judgment on them in my post, I said that they can pay for their own food.
Horse pucky - your implication is that they AREN'T there because of honest, hard work - therefore it's fine to make them pay for things that others get for free.

Cynthetiq 08-10-2009 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cynthetiq (Post 2681520)
I see confusion in this. Since Hillary is currently Secretary of State, I believe if anyone should be jockeying for the reporters it should be her. Since she's off attending to other issues, Bill seems like to me, stepping in her stead, but via the auspices of "president."
Now, here's one of the reasons why I see confusion. There is at least another article like this one.

Clinton: I'm secretary of state, not Bill
Quote:
Clinton: I'm secretary of state, not Bill

By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer

Monday, August 10, 2009

(08-10) 13:01 PDT KINSHASA, Congo (AP) --

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton's temper flared on Monday when a Congolese university student asked for her husband's thinking on an international matter.

"My husband is not secretary of state. I am," an obviously annoyed Clinton replied sharply.

A week after former President Bill Clinton traveled to North Korea to secure the release of two detained American journalists and stole the limelight from the start of his wife's first trip to Africa, Clinton was clearly nettled by the question at a town hall forum in Kinshasa.

"You want me to tell you what my husband thinks?" she replied incredulously when the male student asked her what "Mr. Clinton" thought of World Bank concerns about a multibillion-dollar Chinese loan offer to the Democratic Republic of Congo. . "If you want my opinion, I will tell you my opinion. I am not going to be channeling my husband," she said.

The question was left unanswered as the moderator of the event quickly moved on.

Sidelined for weeks after she was injured during a fall this spring, Clinton returned to a flurry of speculation that she had been shoved to the side as a diplomatic force inside the administration, overshadowed by globe-trotting President Barack Obama, Vice President Joe Biden and a bevy of heavyweight special envoys assigned to the world's critical hotspots.

Clinton launched into a series of high-profile speeches and television appearances. But just as she landed in Africa, her ambitious visit ran into stiff competition from her husband's secret mission to North Korea, which drew heavy coverage for his role in freeing the two journalists and talking with the regime's long-time leader, Kim Jong Il.

It was not immediately clear why Clinton reacted with such umbrage, and she quickly recovered her cool and moved on to other subjects Monday. Just before the question that set off her anger, another student had asked if the United States and the West felt a need to apologize to the people of Congo for colonialism and post-colonial interference.

"I cannot excuse the past and I will not try," she said. "We can either think about the past and be imprisoned by it or we can decide we're going to have a better future and work to make it."

Clinton is in the middle of a marathon 11-day tour of Africa and has held to a grueling schedule of official meetings and private events that have kept her busy from sunrise to well after sunset.

She returned to the public eye in mid-July with what aides billed as a major foreign policy address at the Council on Foreign Relations in Washington. Since then, she has traveled to India and Thailand and now to seven nations in Africa.

Hours after she left Washington for Africa last Monday, news broke that Bill Clinton had gone on the humanitarian mission to North Korea to win the release of Laura Ling and Euna Lee, two television journalists who had been arrested there and sentenced to 12 years at hard labor.

Mrs. Clinton arrived in Kenya to find herself peppered with questions about his role in the secret mission to North Korea.

danbo 08-11-2009 08:15 AM
Slick Willy probably flew over there, had sex with somebody's wife and that's what sealed the deal. :rolleyes:

YaWhateva 08-11-2009 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by danbo (Post 2685988)
Slick Willy probably flew over there, had sex with somebody's wife and that's what sealed the deal. :rolleyes:
I'd love to go on that kind of humanitarian mission! :thumbsup:


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