Cynthetiq

No, but people are free to Monday Morning quarterback or espouse their opinion on how they have their own anecdotal evidence of DWB.

The President of the United States on the other hand, should have not stepped in at all. By stepping in he has allowed criticism from people from racism to favoritism, from offense of the police union, and other Americans who expected him to not comment on it, and focus on the issue at the moment which on Wednesday night was the Healthcare Reform bill.

If you are okay with him weighing in, in some fashion, then I guess, you should have the same opinion for the Muslim or Jew that is discriminated against and allow him to spend time and focus on that issue as well.

I on the other hand, feel it is not his place. If we'd like to really get down to brass tacks, we can look to see where his enumerated powers are listed in the US Constitution stating he should be taking a FEDERAL role, or ANY role in this LOCAL issue.

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dippin

Oh, I don't think he should be addressing these issues nationally, although I appreciate the difficulty of the situation he was in (he was asked about it, so if he didnt say anything he might have gotten into trouble with other parts of his constituency). I think if he were to address anything there are far more serious cases than this one, like prosecutors blocking access to DNA evidence and so on. My point is just that since you quote my post when saying that, the fact that he did weigh in doesn't change any of the things I said in that post.

pan6467

No, I honestly can't say I recognize many of my neighbors in the dark and some are white, some are black. Hell, one of my next door neighbors I have seen a handful of times in the 2 years we have lived next to each other, as he is home very little and rarely outside, except to maybe be going to a car, when I am home. Does he have to walk with a cane? I've never paid attention. Does he wear glasses, what kind of shape is his body, what's his first or last name, does he have any accents? I have no idea. I probably haven't seen him in 7 or 8 months. The only thing I do know is he has someone do his yard. He is a long distance truck driver and even that is secondhand knowledge from my wife, who told me that is what she heard, so it wouldn't hold up in court.

How often is Gates at his house? How far is the door he was breaking from the neighbors window or where he was viewing from? What was Gates wearing? Was the cane in obvious sight of the neighbor's view? Was Gates or the friend he was with drunk or acting suspiciously?

Those are unanswerable by anyone here.

Was there attempted break-ins at Gates' house prior? YES.

Can you not recognize someone (even a neighbor) in the dark from a distance? YES.

Has there been problems recently with break-ins in that neighborhood? YES.

Was the neighbor trying to protect his neighbor's property? It APPEARS the answer is YES and I firmly believe that.... but I'm sure some will argue over this.

Would I have done the same? YES.

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roachboy

fact is that all this information floats about in the micro-situation and the micro-situation is erased in the media event.
which is the main factor that makes this whole tempest in a teacup so stupid.

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Willravel

What if your neighbor walked with a cane? And had luggage? And was with a man in a tux? Do you think the safest assumption is that this is a break in?

No, Pan, you certainly would not have called the cops.

dippin

not to mention it was a little after noon, so it wasn't dark outside. But that is a smaller point. The incident itself certainly was minor, but the reception across society wasn't a minor issue.

Willravel

Oh. I'd missed that.

Yeah, the woman had no reason to call the police at all.

Xerxys

^^ I don't get where you are going with this. Are you guys just being dense for no reason? The house in question had a history of being burglarized. I don't recognize people that live with me mainly because I'm never home but also he was FORCING THE DOOR with his shoulder!! Utilize some common sense here.

scout

Maybe the professor should have done like most normal people that misplace their keys and called a locksmith rather than break down the door.

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Willravel

A man in his late 50s that had a cane, with a man in a tux, with luggage around them, was trying to force the door in broad daylight. Doesn't this situation require a second's thought before calling the police? Leaving aside the fact that this women doesn't even know the appearance of a neighbor, what kind of criminals does she think break into homes? Do most criminals in Cambridge wear tuxes?

Ananas

But that LOCAL event is a reflection on a smaller scale of what happens on a NATIONAL level.

It is the same as POTUS directing his Justice Department to review and change the unequal sentencing laws for crack and powder cocaine. When citizens are treated differently in contradiction to the Constitution, then it is up to the POTUS to show the nation that he is going to enforce the law, after all, the POTUS is the nation's top cop.

Really, a tuxedo and luggage in broad daylight makes you a potential burglar? One would really have to suspend belief and reality to make that even remotely plausible. I guess they brought the luggage with them to pack the stolen goods.

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dippin

he didn't misplace any keys. He entered the house through the back door, turned off the alarm, and went back to the front door, which was stuck, and asked the cab driver to help him open it.

Charlatan

I've been locked out of my house a few times. I've never called a locksmith. I've always managed to break into my house just fine.

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scout

and if someone sees you and calls the long arm will you then become belligerant and disrespectful to the officers when they show up to investigate?

Thats funny. Anyone with any common sense knows you don't force a door open that's "swollen shut" because you probably won't be able to close it. And if he's in the back door why is it so important to open the front door? To lazy to pack the luggage to the back even if it's likely the door may not shut after he forces it open? Sounds like a unlikely story to me but hey I wasn't there. People are buying it lock, stock and barrel so go figure.

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Charlatan

Let's go through this...

Now you are saying the professor has no common sense.

That he is guilty of wanting to fix (or just open) his own door. Are you suggesting that the professor shouldn't try and fix his own door?

The the professor is guilty of being lazy. Are you to suggesting that a man who walks with a cane should haul his luggage through the back door? Are you suggesting laziness is suspicious behaviour?

You also seem to be suggesting that he is lying about the whole scenario. That somehow, a person found to be trying to force open his own door is telling an "unlikely story".

I am really trying to understand what you are saying with this post

Are you trying to suggest that the professor engineered this scenario to achieve the desired result?




I think this is a clear case of two people in crappy situation who reacted poorly. Did the professor overreact? Yes. Did the cop overreact when he arrested the professor? Yes.

I think we have all seen (or participated) in situations like this. It is rarely a proud moment for those involved.

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FuglyStick

I think this is probably the best description. I also think that if the media, and yes, President Obama, had not been so quick to take issue with the incident, that the parties involved might have been quite amicable once the situation had cooled down.

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dippin

People are buying what "lock, stock and barrel?" The specifics of what he did before the cops got there were never in question. Are you trying to say that he was indeed doing something illegal before it all happened? Because this is really a minor point, not disputed even by the police.

loquitur

Guys, the prof flew off the handle because a cop showed up and asked him to step out of his house, which just isn't done to big shot Harvard profs. The cop didn't like having his authority questioned and rose to the bait. They both let their own egos and issues get the better of them. And now neither one feels he can back down.

I've had issues with cops before. The best way to get rid of a cop is to be sickeningly polite and obsequious.

Willravel

Or to dance. They love it when you dance.

Cynthetiq

No, it's not the same. It's not the same at all. If you'd like for the POTUS and the Justice Department to investigate such things, then great. I'm all for it.

I disagree that the POTUS is the top cop, since there's nothing in the US Constitution that states it is his responsibility to be a police officer. He is the commander in chief, not the police chief. I don't know what fucked up interpretation of the US Constitution you read.

But, to INDIVIDUALLY discuss, a SINGLE situation, a PERSONAL friend of the POTUS, on a LOCAL issue, it is NOT representative of how treatment happens on a NATIONAL level.

If you think it is a reflection NATIONALLY, it's a fucked up twisted and bent fun house mirror you're using.

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Martian

I've mostly avoided this thread, because I agree with roachboy. However, I did have this pop up in my newsfeed today and thought I'd share:

Black scholar agrees to beer with Obama, policeman | U.S. | Reuters

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Charlatan

I like the idea of Obama having these folks over for a beer...

"Honey? I'm just going over to Barry's for a beer. I shouldn't be too late. Don't wait up."

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Cynthetiq

great more time wasted. instead of focusing on healthcare reform, we're having a beer.

fuckin' wonderful!

let's keep our priorities and responsibilities far and away from where they should be.

__________________
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Charlatan

I don't see this as time wasted. It is likely to take very little of his time and it will pay off dividends.

Leading a nation should be about more than *just* balancing a cheque book.


That said, I don't think he should have offered an opinion on this incident to begin with. Should he speak to race in general? Yes. Was this the incident he should have chosen as his vehicle to address it? I don't really think it is. But you never know...

Regardless, now that he has offered an opinion (and rather stuck his foot in it), I think this is a reasonable response. At the very least, his words (the whole speech not just snippets taken out of context) and actions can model proper responses to things like this.

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aberkok

The president's not allowed to take an hour out and have a beer?

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YaWhateva

I agree with this completely. I have had several run-ins and being extremely nice pisses them off because they can't shove their authority in your face. then they leave.

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pan6467

I wouldn't answer for me Will, if I were you. As much as I respect you you are dead wrong. If I knew a house was having problems and I saw 2 men of ANY race trying to push the door in, I'd have called the cops, regardless of what they were wearing or walking with.

Looking at as much of the news clipping I can, I would be interested in seeing a link that describes the man with him (or Professor Gates) wearing a tux. The man with him according to all news sources I have seen mentioning him was a cab driver. The picture of Professor Gates exiting, while handcuffed shows him wearing a Polo type shirt and jeans. Now unless the police were very slow in responding and a man who walks with a cane and states he cannot yell because of a bronchial infection can change clothes extremely well and fast.... I don't see any tuxedo being worn by anyone.

According to the articles I see, "Supporters say Gates was immediately considered a suspect because officers were summoned by a female caller who said she saw "two black males with backpacks on the porch," one of whom was "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry," according to a police report."

Gates himself stated, "that he doesn't know the woman who called police, Lucia Whalen, and that "she was probably doing the right thing." Whalen didn't respond to Associated Press requests for comment."

Henry Louis Gates Jr. Arrest: Police Drop Charge

So I would again most definitely appreciate your links and sources to "suitcases and a tuxedo being worn"..... I would also appreciate it if you do not tell me how I would react, do not assume you know how I would react or what I would or would not do. It shows no respect.

Edit I did find this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090727/...ong_analysis_2

But a black "suit" with black pants is hardly a "tux" and could be anything. AFTER the door was forced open (and presumably AFTER the call) luggage was carried in.

BUT according to the Huffington Post article Gates himself admits entering through the back door so luggage may not have been clearly seen, especially if it's still in the car.

There are far too many unknowns and guesses and people adding what they want now, to truly make a call as to what happened.

The president should never have made any comment on this, it's not a NATIONAL ISSUE and again there are far too many unknowns for him to have made any comments on a LOCAL ISSUE, friend or not.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

mixedmedia

Thank you Charlatan and loquitor (and anyone else attempting to bring a little reason to this discussion). This whole thing is being blown way out of proportion. Why dissect the hell out of a simple happenstance? Maybe there truly isn't anything else to understand. Speculating about this or that is truly a waste of time.

It's a little weird how this story exploded and the one about the kids being barred from the Philly swimming pool just kind of sat there...

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timalkin

..

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dksuddeth

or know the laws better than the cop. that really pisses em off and drives them away.

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Fotzlid

Latest update.

Gates caller says she didn’t cite race

Cynthetiq

Sure, but he's not taking an hour to have a beer, he's taking time that should be devoted towards national healthcare reform... all the distractions to the media and the politicians is absurd. He's taking time to broker "peace" in a situation that did not need to involve the POTUS.

All of it is a waste of time true, the speculating etc, but the discussion is the doorway.

If the race relations bit was so important then yes, why did the pool incident get little follow up or media attention. In my opinion it's because the kids were poor, and not friends with the POTUS.
Being assertive is different than being an asshole. One can assert their rights and knowledge of those rights in a polite manner. Saying "I'll speak with your mama outside," isn't being assertive, it's being an asshole.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

SirSeymour

Have you been to the neighborhood and seen the front of his house from her point of view? If not, you cannot say this with any level of certainty at all. I know what the folks living in the houses right in front of my and too either side of them look like but beyond that, I have only a vague idea and could easily get it wrong. I've lived here 6 years and most of them for longer than that.

If the professor had set the cane on the porch or in a corner where it wasn't easily visible that would be no help. If the caller had not seen the driver walk up to help she likely would only have seen his back so no clue he was in tux. I have read that he leases the house rather than own. If true, he is much less likely to active in the community which reduces the likely hood his face is known well.

The reality is the woman made the safe call. The cops made the safe call. The professor over reacted.

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Derwood

so being a well-to-do, successful college professor in 2009 means he's never dealth with racism?

dc_dux

Setting aside blame for the incident, where both parties could have acted differntly (and Obama could have chose better words for his reaction when asked at a press conference), I have a different reaction to the larger issue which is that comments like those above and/or...:

I'm appalled that some people are taking up for this racist piece of shit professor. This asshole has a huge chip on his shoulder and probably walks around all day giving the stink eye to every white person he sees. I can't believe he's able to taint the next generation with his hatred, but fuck it, academia has always been a breeding ground for rebels without a cause.

Motherfuckers like this one are the biggest reason why we can't bury the race hatchet and move into the 21st Century. Too many people have too much to gain by seeing racism in the smallest things. If whites are ever a minority in the United States, I want to be the white Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson equivalent.

or this one:

Don't mind the black cop. He's an Uncle Tom, or as he's known around the department - Officer Tom. You have to keep a few of the blacks in your organization so you're not so obvious that you're just a front for the KKK. It's a lot harder to get paid to harass blacks when you are too obvious about it.

...is why race relations is still such a volatile issue.

Wow..the anger and bitterness and vitriol exposed in those words.

One would think and hope that a person's outrage at the event could be expressed in a more civil and constructive manner.

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Charlatan

timalkin... your attitude is exactly why there is still an issue with race in America. You are grinding your axe just as much those you point at and accuse of being the problem. The only way to move forward is to try and understand each other's position on the issue. If you can't see what the Other is seeing you will never understand why they react the way they do.

But perhaps you are happy with the way things are now.

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pan6467

This is only half true. It takes BOTH sides to work together to achieve understanding. When only one side tries to understand and work for a resolution, and the other doesn't, resentment and hatred build on one side and a sort of entitled, egotistical, self righteous, elitist, attitude comes from the other.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Ananas

You know what, Cynthetiq, you seem to take an antagonistic stance with my posts because we disagree on certain things. It's cool to have differing opinions and all that, but try using a civil tone when debating an issue, or while presenting your point of view. Thank you.

Re: top cop reference -- the POTUS appoints an Attorney General, who is his representative in all matters legal (his top cop), so by inference he is the chief law enforcement (top cop) official in the US.
If you want to split hairs over that, then I'll leave you to that. I don't read a "fucked up interpretation of the US Constitution" no more than I would assume that you do based upon your vituperative response.

The racial divide is a national issue, whether or not you wish to acknowledge that this is so. It doesn't matter which side of the canyon you stand on, the fact that there is a canyon should be cause for concern.

IMO, the POTUS could have excused himself from commenting on the issue citing his PERSONAL friendship and therefore a possible conflict of interest, and referred it to his top cop representative, Eric Holder.

President Obama appears to be more than capable of multitasking, so the issues that are at the top of your list (health care, economic recovery, etc) can be addressed without the President having to don blinders to forcibly direct his attention to such matters. Besides, he has appointed what he believes to be more than capable people to help him wade through this country's messes in order to address and/or resolve all issues that threaten the peace and security of the nation.

We will have to civilly agree to disagree on this one.

__________________
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Toaster126

For anyone still following this, I'd like to a) point to my previous post, and b) share this link: 911 caller in Gates arrest never referred to 'black suspects' - CNN.com

The 911 caller is now officially on record as saying the cops lied in the report. Shocking, I know. How could someone in a position of power lie to us and use that power to avoid responsibility for their actions?

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Charlatan

Of course it takes both sides.

That's why I said, "The only way to move forward is to try and understand each other's position on the issue."

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