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If the roles were reversed, would the outcry, the extraordinary efforts at reasoning and excusing behavior that tiptoes the line of illegality, the knee-jerk raising of the "race-card" flag be at the same level? I suspect not - unless there has been an ingrained history of persecution, unequal treatment under law, and race-based crimes against whites by blacks. Let's do the time warp again.
Why should people of color have to tread more lightly around white public servants? The President of the United States should address issues such as these - not because he shares ancestry in both the ethnicities involved here - but because it's incidents like these that plague this country and prevent us from moving forward. His job is to lead this country, and like others before him, he knows that silence is not the best response. Roachboy- that was one fantastic post. |
If the roles had been reversed no one would have even heard about this incident. Hell, I doubt it would have made the news in Cambridge, much less going national.
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I just watched yet another news conference regarding this topic where he's addressing it yet again, asking if anyone has contacts with the press to get off the professor's lawn. While it's said in jest, sorry, I don't see it as important in comparison to more bank failures just 4 more last week bringing the total to 54 for 2009. But like people have said about racism, "if we don't talk about it maybe it will just go away" maybe that will work with our economy too. |
Video - Breaking News Videos from CNN.com - Obama calls Cambridge officer
and this is why I find that he's a fair and eloquent speaker now that I've gotten the opportunity to see the whole press conference. |
OP: I wasn't there so I can't say for sure, but generally I agree. It sounded like the police officers had real suspicion. Why in the world would you refuse to come out and talk to the police if your home was just robbed? Usually only criminals act that way, so why should the police act differently? He matched the description, and they found him acting suspicious at the scene of the crime...it sounds like he has a stick up his ass and acted that way on purpose just to create the scandal.
Only they know for sure though. |
When you express your opinion, you have to consider your audience. Police are trained to bristle when you question their authority, whether you question their rightness, or not.
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CynthetiqThe President should address this issue. It's as important as the layoff, DOW average, health care, etc. because the effects of such actions are just as far-reaching. The "color line" has divided our nation since its inception, and the fact that it continues to be a divisive issue into the 21st century is indicative of the need for continued vigilance - and resolution.
Who else but the leader of the Nation should address racial issues? This is a golden opportunity for US citizens to see how a man of mixed heritage handles such a volatile problem. Other Presidents before him have addressed racial issues during times of national crisis, too (LBJ-VietNam, Kennedy-Cuban Missile Crisis, and so on). The problem is that America cannot get over its racial divisiveness, so it will never fade away even during other more pressing problems. As for: Quote:
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What about the rest of the races of the nation, since this seems to be a Black/White issue then you're neglecting all the Hispanics, Asians, Eastern Europeans (just because they are white doesn't mean they aren't discriminated against), I could go on and on. I'm sorry, as a fiscally conservative person, NOTHING is more important than keeping the roof over your head, food on your table, and the ability to care for yourself for any fiduciary requirement. In this case, we're talking healthcare and the DISTRACTION that this is causing on a national level. I'm fine with the press coverage that has happened AFTER the initial healthcare press coverage on Wednesday night. I find it unacceptable that it was interjected into that moment when the ever important healthcare issue was on the table being discussed. In that moment I was VERY offended. |
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I open with this because it is to me the best show of what is going on.
My God people, just skimming over this I see people blaming the neighbor for not knowing his/her neighbors... not many people really do anymore especially if working different shifts. Plus in the dark seeing 2 men breaking into a home where not only that home but others in the area had recently been broken into, sounds to me like the neighbor did the right thing. I see people blaming the police, hmmmm a man comes out of his home and is beligerent to the police that came and checked on a legitimate call trying to protect the man's property. I for one would have shown gratitude to the police for their concern and the duty for which my tax dollars pay. I wouldn't go outside my home to argue with them creating more of a disturbance UNLESS I wanted arrested for some reason. I see people blaming the president.... I for one can understand this it is not even a state issue but a local issue and for the president of the US to make any comment not knowing the specifics is not presidential and to make the comments he did AS a sitting president is far more divisive and inflammatory than just stepping back and saying he doesn't know the facts and that it is a local issue that he has faith the local officials can handle. By his comments he allowed it to become a national issue that is divisive, taking attention away from more pressing national issues...... hmmmmm...... acted stupidly for answering a police call on a break in???? He answer by first disclaiming he was friends with professor Gates. The only one to blame in all of this is Professor Gates. Whether he acted because he felt mistreated, wanted to be arrested, was intoxicated or was just human and made a misjudgment. Maybe the police officer got tired of being yelled at for doing his job and being treated in a nasty way.... he's human and maybe he made a call based from emotion because this guy wouldn't just shut up. He (professor Gates) raised the racial question. I have been belligerent with cops, I have seen others of ALL races and sexes be belligerent to officers of ALL races and sexes and I can honestly say it takes a lot for an officer to arrest someone. I truly see that this is not about race but about people who have personal agendas to push and are and will be using this to push them through..... and that may include professor Gates himself and his personal friend the president. I defer to Bill Cosby's comments and I agree with the first part, the second part, I think he makes excuses for the president, but is trying to show respect. Quote:
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I love how everyone is SURE of what happened there and is SURE that the professor is to blame for everything based strictly on what the cop said. It is ironic to say the least that in a situation where a white man and a black man have differing accounts of what happened, everyone is SURE there was no racism involved because.... the white man said so! The circularity is astounding.
Nevermind that by the cops' own account he overstepped his boundaries and trampled on some of the professors constitutional rights. I guess trespassing and luring the professor outside with the intent of arresting him are apparently secondary to the mere possibility that the professor might have falsely accused someone of racism. Oh, and nevermind that the police officer and the police union are not releasing the video from the dashboard cams of the 3 cars that were there. After all, why would we want to see that? How dare we question the officer's account of events! |
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Do you recognize your neighbors? |
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Your home is safe, but is it safe from black intellectuals?
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President Obama is not supposed to delve into local issues that have no impact on the nation as a whole. People do not disassociate Mr. Obama's personal opinion and President Obama's opinion or position. This is why President Obama is now backpedaling from his comment about how "stupidly" it was handled. |
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No, but people are free to Monday Morning quarterback or espouse their opinion on how they have their own anecdotal evidence of DWB.
The President of the United States on the other hand, should have not stepped in at all. By stepping in he has allowed criticism from people from racism to favoritism, from offense of the police union, and other Americans who expected him to not comment on it, and focus on the issue at the moment which on Wednesday night was the Healthcare Reform bill. If you are okay with him weighing in, in some fashion, then I guess, you should have the same opinion for the Muslim or Jew that is discriminated against and allow him to spend time and focus on that issue as well. I on the other hand, feel it is not his place. If we'd like to really get down to brass tacks, we can look to see where his enumerated powers are listed in the US Constitution stating he should be taking a FEDERAL role, or ANY role in this LOCAL issue. |
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How often is Gates at his house? How far is the door he was breaking from the neighbors window or where he was viewing from? What was Gates wearing? Was the cane in obvious sight of the neighbor's view? Was Gates or the friend he was with drunk or acting suspiciously? Those are unanswerable by anyone here. Was there attempted break-ins at Gates' house prior? YES. Can you not recognize someone (even a neighbor) in the dark from a distance? YES. Has there been problems recently with break-ins in that neighborhood? YES. Was the neighbor trying to protect his neighbor's property? It APPEARS the answer is YES and I firmly believe that.... but I'm sure some will argue over this. Would I have done the same? YES. |
fact is that all this information floats about in the micro-situation and the micro-situation is erased in the media event.
which is the main factor that makes this whole tempest in a teacup so stupid. |
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No, Pan, you certainly would not have called the cops. |
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Yeah, the woman had no reason to call the police at all. |
^^ I don't get where you are going with this. Are you guys just being dense for no reason? The house in question had a history of being burglarized. I don't recognize people that live with me mainly because I'm never home but also he was FORCING THE DOOR with his shoulder!! Utilize some common sense here.
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Maybe the professor should have done like most normal people that misplace their keys and called a locksmith rather than break down the door.
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A man in his late 50s that had a cane, with a man in a tux, with luggage around them, was trying to force the door in broad daylight. Doesn't this situation require a second's thought before calling the police? Leaving aside the fact that this women doesn't even know the appearance of a neighbor, what kind of criminals does she think break into homes? Do most criminals in Cambridge wear tuxes?
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It is the same as POTUS directing his Justice Department to review and change the unequal sentencing laws for crack and powder cocaine. When citizens are treated differently in contradiction to the Constitution, then it is up to the POTUS to show the nation that he is going to enforce the law, after all, the POTUS is the nation's top cop. Really, a tuxedo and luggage in broad daylight makes you a potential burglar? One would really have to suspend belief and reality to make that even remotely plausible. I guess they brought the luggage with them to pack the stolen goods.:shakehead: |
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Let's go through this... Now you are saying the professor has no common sense. That he is guilty of wanting to fix (or just open) his own door. Are you suggesting that the professor shouldn't try and fix his own door? The the professor is guilty of being lazy. Are you to suggesting that a man who walks with a cane should haul his luggage through the back door? Are you suggesting laziness is suspicious behaviour? You also seem to be suggesting that he is lying about the whole scenario. That somehow, a person found to be trying to force open his own door is telling an "unlikely story". I am really trying to understand what you are saying with this post Are you trying to suggest that the professor engineered this scenario to achieve the desired result? I think this is a clear case of two people in crappy situation who reacted poorly. Did the professor overreact? Yes. Did the cop overreact when he arrested the professor? Yes. I think we have all seen (or participated) in situations like this. It is rarely a proud moment for those involved. |
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Guys, the prof flew off the handle because a cop showed up and asked him to step out of his house, which just isn't done to big shot Harvard profs. The cop didn't like having his authority questioned and rose to the bait. They both let their own egos and issues get the better of them. And now neither one feels he can back down.
I've had issues with cops before. The best way to get rid of a cop is to be sickeningly polite and obsequious. |
Or to dance. They love it when you dance.
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I disagree that the POTUS is the top cop, since there's nothing in the US Constitution that states it is his responsibility to be a police officer. He is the commander in chief, not the police chief. I don't know what fucked up interpretation of the US Constitution you read. But, to INDIVIDUALLY discuss, a SINGLE situation, a PERSONAL friend of the POTUS, on a LOCAL issue, it is NOT representative of how treatment happens on a NATIONAL level. If you think it is a reflection NATIONALLY, it's a fucked up twisted and bent fun house mirror you're using. |
I've mostly avoided this thread, because I agree with roachboy. However, I did have this pop up in my newsfeed today and thought I'd share:
Black scholar agrees to beer with Obama, policeman | U.S. | Reuters Quote:
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I like the idea of Obama having these folks over for a beer...
"Honey? I'm just going over to Barry's for a beer. I shouldn't be too late. Don't wait up." |
great more time wasted. instead of focusing on healthcare reform, we're having a beer.
fuckin' wonderful! let's keep our priorities and responsibilities far and away from where they should be. |
I don't see this as time wasted. It is likely to take very little of his time and it will pay off dividends.
Leading a nation should be about more than *just* balancing a cheque book. That said, I don't think he should have offered an opinion on this incident to begin with. Should he speak to race in general? Yes. Was this the incident he should have chosen as his vehicle to address it? I don't really think it is. But you never know... Regardless, now that he has offered an opinion (and rather stuck his foot in it), I think this is a reasonable response. At the very least, his words (the whole speech not just snippets taken out of context) and actions can model proper responses to things like this. |
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Looking at as much of the news clipping I can, I would be interested in seeing a link that describes the man with him (or Professor Gates) wearing a tux. The man with him according to all news sources I have seen mentioning him was a cab driver. The picture of Professor Gates exiting, while handcuffed shows him wearing a Polo type shirt and jeans. Now unless the police were very slow in responding and a man who walks with a cane and states he cannot yell because of a bronchial infection can change clothes extremely well and fast.... I don't see any tuxedo being worn by anyone. According to the articles I see, "Supporters say Gates was immediately considered a suspect because officers were summoned by a female caller who said she saw "two black males with backpacks on the porch," one of whom was "wedging his shoulder into the door as if he was trying to force entry," according to a police report." Gates himself stated, "that he doesn't know the woman who called police, Lucia Whalen, and that "she was probably doing the right thing." Whalen didn't respond to Associated Press requests for comment." Henry Louis Gates Jr. Arrest: Police Drop Charge So I would again most definitely appreciate your links and sources to "suitcases and a tuxedo being worn"..... I would also appreciate it if you do not tell me how I would react, do not assume you know how I would react or what I would or would not do. It shows no respect. Edit I did find this: Quote:
But a black "suit" with black pants is hardly a "tux" and could be anything. AFTER the door was forced open (and presumably AFTER the call) luggage was carried in. BUT according to the Huffington Post article Gates himself admits entering through the back door so luggage may not have been clearly seen, especially if it's still in the car. There are far too many unknowns and guesses and people adding what they want now, to truly make a call as to what happened. The president should never have made any comment on this, it's not a NATIONAL ISSUE and again there are far too many unknowns for him to have made any comments on a LOCAL ISSUE, friend or not. |
Thank you Charlatan and loquitor (and anyone else attempting to bring a little reason to this discussion). This whole thing is being blown way out of proportion. Why dissect the hell out of a simple happenstance? Maybe there truly isn't anything else to understand. Speculating about this or that is truly a waste of time.
It's a little weird how this story exploded and the one about the kids being barred from the Philly swimming pool just kind of sat there... |
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If the race relations bit was so important then yes, why did the pool incident get little follow up or media attention. In my opinion it's because the kids were poor, and not friends with the POTUS. Quote:
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If the professor had set the cane on the porch or in a corner where it wasn't easily visible that would be no help. If the caller had not seen the driver walk up to help she likely would only have seen his back so no clue he was in tux. I have read that he leases the house rather than own. If true, he is much less likely to active in the community which reduces the likely hood his face is known well. The reality is the woman made the safe call. The cops made the safe call. The professor over reacted. |
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I'm appalled that some people are taking up for this racist piece of shit professor. This asshole has a huge chip on his shoulder and probably walks around all day giving the stink eye to every white person he sees. I can't believe he's able to taint the next generation with his hatred, but fuck it, academia has always been a breeding ground for rebels without a cause.or this one: Don't mind the black cop. He's an Uncle Tom, or as he's known around the department - Officer Tom. You have to keep a few of the blacks in your organization so you're not so obvious that you're just a front for the KKK. It's a lot harder to get paid to harass blacks when you are too obvious about it....is why race relations is still such a volatile issue. Wow..the anger and bitterness and vitriol exposed in those words. One would think and hope that a person's outrage at the event could be expressed in a more civil and constructive manner. |
timalkin... your attitude is exactly why there is still an issue with race in America. You are grinding your axe just as much those you point at and accuse of being the problem. The only way to move forward is to try and understand each other's position on the issue. If you can't see what the Other is seeing you will never understand why they react the way they do.
But perhaps you are happy with the way things are now. |
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Re: top cop reference -- the POTUS appoints an Attorney General, who is his representative in all matters legal (his top cop), so by inference he is the chief law enforcement (top cop) official in the US. Quote:
The racial divide is a national issue, whether or not you wish to acknowledge that this is so. It doesn't matter which side of the canyon you stand on, the fact that there is a canyon should be cause for concern. IMO, the POTUS could have excused himself from commenting on the issue citing his PERSONAL friendship and therefore a possible conflict of interest, and referred it to his top cop representative, Eric Holder. President Obama appears to be more than capable of multitasking, so the issues that are at the top of your list (health care, economic recovery, etc) can be addressed without the President having to don blinders to forcibly direct his attention to such matters. Besides, he has appointed what he believes to be more than capable people to help him wade through this country's messes in order to address and/or resolve all issues that threaten the peace and security of the nation. We will have to civilly agree to disagree on this one. |
For anyone still following this, I'd like to a) point to my previous post, and b) share this link: 911 caller in Gates arrest never referred to 'black suspects' - CNN.com
The 911 caller is now officially on record as saying the cops lied in the report. Shocking, I know. How could someone in a position of power lie to us and use that power to avoid responsibility for their actions? |
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That's why I said, "The only way to move forward is to try and understand each other's position on the issue." |
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I can't speak for any else's experience but myself I had many situations where when writing reports or being questioned after the fact I really didn't have a clear view of the incident or was engaged in conversation with another subject therefore I didn't hear what was said. I've also had many conversations that went something like "Don't ever fucking put me in that position again, you won't like the report I write. Want to act like a cowboy? Do it before or after I'm on scene. Got it!?!" |
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It's a complex issue. I think more so then most people realize. The number of times a citizen will file a BS complaint because they didn't like getting a ticket your being arrested is pretty damn high. Dash cams and cruise voice recorders have saved many officer a lot of grief and several their jobs.
I also think it's not fair to say good cop and bad cop. Sure there are bad cops, no doubt. But the vast majority are just trying to do their job. You never deliver good news, ever. 20+ years never once did I get a call that said "would you please go inform ______ they won the lottery?" No you get calls like "Execute arrest warrant on _____ for _____, be advised they're known to carry weapons and have assaulted officers in the past." Or my favorite "Please respond to _____ at ______, their child _______ was the fatality in the incident at _____ this evening." Great 3am and I get to go wake up a family and delivery the worst news they could possible get. Then you have an officer that's been on the job for 15yrs, never done anything but by the book. Goes to work one day after getting some crappy news at home and has a bad day. Sometimes that one bad day costs him or her their career. Almost always cost someone else their basic rights, too. And of course there are just some people that just shouldn't be in law enforcement. Power happy control freaks really shouldn't be in the business IMO. But for years police exams weeded out anyone not aggressive and power happy. Think that's getting better, started when 4 yrs degrees became a common requirement. /end thread jack. |
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