alkaloid

I have this belief that recycling is stupid and wasteful. This is how I think: It takes more energy to recycle than to just dump it in the garbage in most cases. Maybe recycling aluminum makes sense (I've read it somewhere) but recycling paper, for example, doesn't. Just dumping paper into landfill is a form of carbon sequestration, and it encourages more tree growing which takes carbon out of the air.

I'm kinda sick of holier than thou people telling me to recycle. I don't like people telling me what to do. Some people seem extra dogmatic about this. And in children's TV shows recycling is very prominently featured. Curious George and Berenstain Bears, for example, have episodes relating to recycling. One of the favorite games my 4 year old son plays is "Recycling" where he pretends some of his toys are garbage and others are recyclable material and separates them.

A while ago, I saw an episode about recycling on Bullshit, with the magician guys Penn and Teller.


And this editorial article is pretty old, but it speaks to me.
Recycling Is Garbage - The New York Times

And I read rebuttals like this but I'm still reluctant to change my mind:
Anti-Recycling Myths

Baraka_Guru

Interesting.

Energy requirements aside, I'm generally concerned about recycling also being about material recovery and waste avoidance.

As one example, I think recycling paper is a good idea because of how long it takes to grow trees, and there is still clear cutting of natural areas going on. I don't think a lot of paper comes from tree farms.

Besides, the energy requirement thing can be fixed over time with improved technologies.

I wouldn't want to abolish recycling programs. I'd rather improve them. It at least makes sense from a material supply point of view. The impact on the environment is something that can be greatly improved. In the grand scheme of things, we haven't been recycling for that long.

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RogueGypsy

I look at it as a natural cycle kind of thing.

"What comes from the Earth, shall return to the Earth"

Recycling interrupts the cycle, who knows what damage that is causing.

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Baraka_Guru

What do you mean "natural cycle"? Since when is large-scale pulping and smelting "natural"?

We took it out and changed it. Now I think we're responsible for getting as much use out of it as possible.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

You know, the natural cycle, where plastic naturally returns to the earth over the next couple hundred thousand years in a landfill.

Walt

Its all a giant conspiracy on behalf of the government. Metals and plastics are conveniently stockpiled to be used in secret weapons production facilities. I still havent figured out what they're doing with all of the neatly sorted clear/brown/green beer bottles yet. They will probably be used to create some sort of kick-ass stained glass windows in the 're-education camps' they're building out in Nevada.

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alkaloid

This at first seemed like a witty retort for my ridiculous position. But then I thought, is it so bad to have a gigantic mountain of plastic bottles, when the alternative is to have all the carbon molecules in the air?

If you give me choice between incinerating garbage versus piling them in Grand Canyon. I would probably choose dumping them.

I guess the anti-incineration stance would be perhaps less controversial than anti-recycling stance. Maybe.

---------- Post added at 04:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:42 PM ----------

Nice. Perhaps I should have posted this in conspiracy forum.

I think I know what's going one with some of the bottles. If you are in California, some of the glass bottles are being shipped to China to be recycled there, at least that's the way it was before the recent economic collapse. If you are in England. They are just being dumped in the landfill. There is apparently a huge glut of green bottles due to all the bottled wine that's being imported.

Walt

In all seriousness...I could be wrong but didn't the recycling movement begin during WWII as a way to scrounge every last scrap of metal for the war effort? Aside from conservation, it sounds like a great way to have a stockpile of raw materials in case of emergency.

The current methods of processing recycled materials may be counterproductive, but I agree with Baraka that technological advancements will improve the process and make recycling a no-brainer.

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Willravel

It's a false choice, though, as recycling technologies are often improving. Yes, many current recycling centers, most 10 years old or more, do pollute during the recycling process. Newer technologies reduce that pollution, though. Disposal, on the other hand, is always the same: put it in the ground with a bunch of other stuff.

Cynthetiq

ah, this is on my list of things to write about because I believe it to be the bigger scam.

Glass bottles were already recycled. No Deposit No Return were labeled on those bottles that were not recovered, cleaned, and repackaged by the bottlers.

the farce i recall them foisting on us is the CONSERVATION of water, that it would be better for the environment because you'd use less water. Anyone who's taken even simple science classes knows that is INCORRECT. The cycle of water is such that it will be returned without issue. Next level of science teaches CONSERVATION OF MATTER, no matter is gained or lost.

Glass bottles provided the simpler return, trucks left the facility with full bottles, and came back with empty bottles. Now they come back completely empty. A complete waste of the truck wear and tear, and then the fuel.

Once they destroyed the ability for bottlers to use glass bottles, the local state governments got the money instead of the companies. Companies had no choice but to force more creating of new plastic bottles, and had to now pay the government for the benefit of those containers.

Yet it turns out that water bottles are exempt from those same things. Water bottles have a high waste total and come even from overseas, where soda is locally produced in regional bottling centers.

oh... i could go on and on... but I'm done for the moment.

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Willravel

Who's the "they" in:
Is it the local and state governments? I'd be perfectly happy with things coming in glass for me to use, and someone coming by to collect the bottles when I'm done to reuse them. As I understand it, this happened for many decades before I was born and I've never been given an answer as to why it stopped.

Cynthetiq

The they is the environmental lobbyists and the local governments. Legislation for "taxing" the individual bottles $.05, most states have some redemption value but the great state of NY doesn't allow you to return bottles on Sunday, and you may not be able to return a can or bottle to the redemption machine if the store who runs the machine doesn't sell that UPC/Product. They can also limit how many you redeem. What fun! So I say, fuck you I'm not recycling my bottles or cans.

NY city suspended their recycling program citing it was too expensive after 9/11 and it was suspended in July 2002 until March 2003. While it does cost to collect, that cost is offset by the recycling profit once it's sold back to the companies. The cities make a small windfall.

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Willravel

Sounds like it was more about profit than environment. I don't know any environmental lobbyists personally, but I do know most of them work with organizations that do have the best interest of the environment in mind.

It would seem the best way to rectify the situation is to get into contact with the organizations that hired the lobbyists or which the lobbyists represented.