Question about the Presidential Pardon - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Willravel · 06-30-2009, 12:09 PM

In theory, the presidential pardon/commutation is intended to be a check, so the president can correct judicial error, but since it's not a matter that can be overseen it often is done for whatever reason the president sees fit. Sometimes it's a matter of west wing PR, sometimes it's to prevent a friend from well-earned jail time.

Let us say, for the sake of argument, that our next president is vehemently, religiously anti-capital punishment. The day he's sworn into office, he proceeds to grant every single request for a commutation that's currently on file, reducing the sentences to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He invited those that didn't file to do so and then grants them the same reduction to life without parole.

Media and PR consequences aside, could this be legally challenged? Could anyone stop the president from doing this?

dksuddeth · 06-30-2009, 12:18 PM

technically, that wouldn't be a pardon, but would be called commutation. Commuting death sentences to life in prison could only be done by the president in federally tried cases. A prisoner on death row that had been sentenced to death by a state trial, could only receive a commute of the sentence by the governor of that state.

A presidential pardon removes the crime from that persons record. If the person happens to be serving a sentence at that time, the sentence is then stopped and the person is released..

Rekna · 06-30-2009, 12:18 PM

I don't believe so unless someone could make a constitutional argument. Also the president would not be pardoning but would be commuting parts of their sentence. The problem is the president would get a lot of bad PR and would likely not be re-elected.

EDIT: It looks like DK is right. The president only has the power to pardon/commute federal crimes.

The_Jazz · 06-30-2009, 01:45 PM

Since dk cleared up the pardon/commutation question, once the President pardons OR commutes a sentence, there's no undoing it barring a retrial and resentencing.

The political question is completely separate.

inBOIL · 06-30-2009, 02:12 PM

There's always the possbility of congress passing an amendment to remove the President's pardoning power.

MSD · 07-08-2009, 12:06 PM

I do not believe that they could be reversed. This would create a huge fallout in civil court, though. Part of accepting a pardon is admitting that you committed the crime and waiving 5th amendment rights. This would open every pardoned criminal to wrongful death lawsuits by family members of their victims in which they had no legal right not to incriminate themselves.

ratbastid · 07-08-2009, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inBOIL

There's always the possbility of congress passing an amendment to remove the President's pardoning power.

Given its predominant use as an favor granted to selected few during the closing hours of a lame duck administration, I imagine there'd be some support for that.

Is there any other check the Executive Branch has on the Judicial? Obviously the power of appointment is a pretty big thing, but apart from that? I can't think of any...

inBOIL · 07-08-2009, 07:54 PM

I don't believe that a pardon can be accepted or rejected; If it's granted, you're free.

Willravel · 07-08-2009, 08:00 PM

Okay, now that I think we've established it's difficult to impossible to stop a presidential pardon or commutation, what would be the political and media fallout of a president commuting the deaths of all federal prisoners on death row?

dc_dux · 07-08-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

Okay, now that I think we've established it's difficult to impossible to stop a presidential pardon or commutation, what would be the political and media fallout of a president commuting the deaths of all federal prisoners on death row?

Depends.

One of the last federal prisoners executed was Timothy McViegh.

In fact, three prisoners were executed during the Bush admin and none for the 40 previous years.

Obama will have decisions on individual cases coming up, but I would be surprised to see him step in unless there was compelling evidence of wrongful convictions giving that he supports the death penalty for “heinous” crimes .

Good article on the current state of federal death penalities:

Death penalty decisions loom - Politico.com

Willravel · 07-08-2009, 08:26 PM

I'd have been fine with McVeigh being in prison for life instead of executed, but the backlash had Clinton commuted his sentence would likely have been substantial due to the severity of the crime.

Back when President Obama was still Senator Obama, he wrote he death penalty "does little to deter crime." But he supports capital punishment in cases "so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment."
Abolish the Death Penalty: Barack Obama and the death penalty

06-30-2009, 12:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Question about the Presidential Pardon In theory, the presidential pardon/commutation is intended to be a check, so the president can correct judicial error, but since it's not a matter that can be overseen it often is done for whatever reason the president sees fit. Sometimes it's a matter of west wing PR, sometimes it's to prevent a friend from well-earned jail time. Let us say, for the sake of argument, that our next president is vehemently, religiously anti-capital punishment. The day he's sworn into office, he proceeds to grant every single request for a commutation that's currently on file, reducing the sentences to life in prison without the possibility of parole. He invited those that didn't file to do so and then grants them the same reduction to life without parole. Media and PR consequences aside, could this be legally challenged? Could anyone stop the president from doing this? Last edited by Willravel; 06-30-2009 at 02:27 PM..

06-30-2009, 12:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	technically, that wouldn't be a pardon, but would be called commutation. Commuting death sentences to life in prison could only be done by the president in federally tried cases. A prisoner on death row that had been sentenced to death by a state trial, could only receive a commute of the sentence by the governor of that state. A presidential pardon removes the crime from that persons record. If the person happens to be serving a sentence at that time, the sentence is then stopped and the person is released.. __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

06-30-2009, 12:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I don't believe so unless someone could make a constitutional argument. Also the president would not be pardoning but would be commuting parts of their sentence. The problem is the president would get a lot of bad PR and would likely not be re-elected. EDIT: It looks like DK is right. The president only has the power to pardon/commute federal crimes. Last edited by Rekna; 06-30-2009 at 12:21 PM..

06-30-2009, 01:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	Since dk cleared up the pardon/commutation question, once the President pardons OR commutes a sentence, there's no undoing it barring a retrial and resentencing. The political question is completely separate. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-30-2009, 02:12 PM	#5 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	There's always the possbility of congress passing an amendment to remove the President's pardoning power. __________________ And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

07-08-2009, 12:06 PM	#6 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	I do not believe that they could be reversed. This would create a huge fallout in civil court, though. Part of accepting a pardon is admitting that you committed the crime and waiving 5th amendment rights. This would open every pardoned criminal to wrongful death lawsuits by family members of their victims in which they had no legal right not to incriminate themselves.

07-08-2009, 07:54 PM	#8 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	I don't believe that a pardon can be accepted or rejected; If it's granted, you're free. __________________ And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

07-08-2009, 08:00 PM	#9 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Okay, now that I think we've established it's difficult to impossible to stop a presidential pardon or commutation, what would be the political and media fallout of a president commuting the deaths of all federal prisoners on death row?

07-08-2009, 08:26 PM	#11 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I'd have been fine with McVeigh being in prison for life instead of executed, but the backlash had Clinton commuted his sentence would likely have been substantial due to the severity of the crime. Back when President Obama was still Senator Obama, he wrote he death penalty "does little to deter crime." But he supports capital punishment in cases "so heinous, so beyond the pale, that the community is justified in expressing the full measure of its outrage by meting out the ultimate punishment." Abolish the Death Penalty: Barack Obama and the death penalty