dlish

ive read an article about Shalit, the israeli soldier captured by hamas, and denied any access or rights as a prisoner of war.

while i tend to stay nuetral in the debate about prisoner swaps, i am against many things that is happening here

1) HRW states that his detention may amount to torture. i have no idea if it does, i really dont know that much about his detention,but if its true, and the arabs and muslims dont want their prisoners treated inhumanely, then why do they not practice what they expect of other nations?

2) the typical prison swap usually is skewed towards the palestinians. usually you may get 1 israeli prisoner released (alive or dead) against possibly two dozen, 50, 100? palestinian prisoners. whilst the palestinian families are happy because their sons came home, this cheapens the value of the palestians in my eyes and the eyes of the watching media. That one dead israeli soldier is worth this many living palestianian prisoners

3) the release of prisoners from either side only enhances the objectives of those that are released - namely to fight once more against the enemy with even more resolve. this solves nothing and is nothing more than a band aid solution to a delicate situation and adds more fuel to the fire on both sides.

what do you think about prisoner swaps? do you agree with them?

are they useful? do they achieve the intended purposes (if any)?

is it a window to peace or just an opening to further conflict?

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Slims

Ok, here are my thoughts: The Palestinians ask for the release of not only the 'regular' low level soldiers who get caught by the Israelis' but also senior commanders who will undoubtedly continue to cause trouble if they are released.

Shalit was captured on what amounts to a cross-border raid by the Palestinians...he was not actively pushing into Palestine, etc.

The Israelis are willing to sacrifice a great deal in order to get one of their own back...They may eventually cave to the demands of the Palestinians (they have already made VERY generous offers) which will only encourage future kidnappings.

The Palestinians are taking human hostages and holding them for ransom...That is unacceptable and no country should even consider recognizing them as a legitimate government. IMHO holding a hostage is grounds for war, brutal and uncompromising until either the hostage(s) are released or the hostage takers are so marginalized they are no longer a threat. If Shalit were treated as a POW that would be one thing, but he is not being afforded the dignity due to a soldier nor the recourse for justice available to the lowest criminals.




Were I in charge I would take a very, very hard line towards hostage taking...I would not negotiate even though it would likely result in the deaths of the (few) hostages that were taken. I would viciously pursue every avenue (except capitulation) that may lead to the release or rescue of the hostages. I would try to track down and kill every individual involved, whether the hostage is eventually released or not.

If the hostage-takers have pseudo-state sponsorship, I would do everything practical to crush that state and remove the government from power. If in that process I destroyed the infrastructure of the state then so be it, I would walk-away after my goals are met.

If you don't like that attitude then don't kidnap my citizens.

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Tully Mars

I never really thought about the non-equal swap cheapening the lives of one side. Must contemplate and process this more.

The whole of Israel issue strikes me kind of odd. Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Israel become a state after WWII and weren't most of the first residents shipped in from Europe? At the time wasn't the land already occupied by the Palestinians? I have mixed feeling about the situation. I mean the Holocaust was beyond awful. I can't even begin to find words to describe the horror of it. But that's something the Germans did not the Palestinians. Why did the Palestinians have to give up their homes to make Israel. Would have made more sense to me to give them part of Germany. I mean why not give them Texas or any other US state?

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Sun Tzu

I don’t think you are wrong. IMO you have summed up where every debate leads to on one side with the other reusing to accept it. The facts are there: read the UN Assembly addresses, the British census, maps of the towns that were there, and if possible go there in person. I think it comes down to a person's perception. If you look at actions and what is being taught in Israeli schools (or not taught in this case) it seems like a politically correct, slow cultural genocide. Something I have never been happy about the taxes I pay contributing to.

Whether its manifest destiny or the Old Testament giving an infinite ownership- Why can’t they just say it’s because they have better weapons- that makes them right. Of course could any reasonable person expect any less reaction.

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Xazy

I am in many ways against prisoner swaps for Israel, it encourages more kidnappings. Since Shalit has been kidnapped there have been a lot of offers, prisoners have been released (alot were PLO though not Hamas in order to strengthen Abbas), and yet Shalit is not even treated like a prisoner of war (which he isn't). And since then here have been a number of threats for more kidnappings, and several failed attempts.

Israel does pride itself that it will go to great steps to retrieve a live captured soldier, it is even saddening the trades they made with Hezballah for body parts. Which there is no Jewish law for, and I think the security trade off was not worth it.

dlish

although i can understand (but not necessarily agree) some of your reasoning slims, your rhetorical is scary war mongering. if that is your solution to fixing the fucked up situation they call the Palestinian Question, then i sure hope you're never president.

tully - you are right, but the influx of eurpoean jews that were affluent offered palestinian felahins good money for cultivable land. so its fair to say that many palestinians lost their land because they sold it to the jews.

as for the prisoner swaps being skewed, when i see the news where one prisoner or prisoners' body is swapped for a dozen palestinians, it gives me the feeling that an israeli life is worth more than a live palestinian.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Tully Mars

Some but not all, right? Many we're forced out of their homes and told to relocate. Least that's what I read.

To me there has to be a two state solution to this problem and both parties need to be realistic in their desires.

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dlish

yes of course.

without going into the intricacies of the politics of the day which involved western governments' meddling and double dealing, the palestinians were left short changed from various 'agreements' made on their behalf.

with neither party ready to give a bit, i dare say this question will be strung out for many decades to come.

we'll see many more kidnappings and prisoner swaps in the years to come. dejavu.

__________________
An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere

I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay?
- Filthy

Tully Mars

They hate each other. Nothing good comes from hate. Until they can see past their hate there will be no peace for either.

Anyone else find irony that in a place with so many "Holy" sites there is so much hatred?

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Slims

That is not my solution to the Israeli/Palestinian problem. It is only my solution to hostage-taking and I would apply it world-wide. The US/Israel would likely lose a few hostages short-term, but as soon as it became very obvious that there was no possible gain to kidnapping I think there would be much less of it.

In Afghanistan several members of the Coalition have been quietly paying the Taliban to release hostages. This started with a very few isolated incidents, but has since been driven by success into a solid source of income for the Taliban (which they use to conduct attacks which kill Coalition Soldiers/Afghan civilians). Appeasing hostage-takers will only encourage them to continue taking hostages.

If Israel caves and releases dozens of fighters in order to save the live of one soldier, it will likely result in those newly released fighters killing more Israelis'...The math just doesn't work. It is easy for a government to sacrifice unknown, faceless lives in order to save a named person being paraded around as a prisoner, but it is not morally justified.

I would try to get Shalit back any way I could...except for meeting the demands of the hostage takers as one life is not worth the second and third order effects resulting from making disproportionately large concessions.


Furthermore, I would attempt to find and kill the hostage takers both to send a lesson to other potential kidnappers as well as to prevent those individuals from evolving their craft and sharing lessons learned with others like them.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

guy44

You've got to understand that everyone in Israel is directly affected by the violence. Everyone knows someone who has died or suffered terribly. Everyone serves in the military. And the Israelies have surprisingly different views than you might expect.

When I was in Israel, I was surprised at how many people were absolutely for negotiating for Shalit's release. It was an very popular position. The folks there don't have the luxury of treating him as a political tool or theory-tester - they can empathize easily with his family.

And simply saying things like "I'd try to find and kill the hostage takers" indicates that you aren't informed enough on the situation. Shalit has been more-or-less a #1 priority for the IDF for years now. Of course they've been looking for him and for his kidnappers. They never could find them.

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