supersix2

I'd like to know how other Americans feel about the space program. As a part of the US Space Program (I'd rather not go into detail as to what exactly I do for the space program to avoid violating any policies), I feel like I constantly have to justify the existence of my job to other people not involved in the space program or the aerospace industry in general.

At first it seemed like the current administration might be NASA friendly...however with the formation of the Augustine commission and some information releases from the White House it seems like some people in the administration don't feel that supporting NASA's exploration goals are a priority. The goal is to get back to the Moon by 2020 and establish a permanent base on the Moon by 2025.

Now I know what some people are thinking "in this time of economic hardship can we really justify spending billions of dollars sending people into space." That seems to be the standard argument I hear. Well the truth of it is NASA's annual budget is between 14-18 billion dollars...that's ~0.5% of the entire Federal budget. A recent newspaper article in the Houston Chronicle cited that some in the administration would like to cut NASA's budget by 4.5 billion of the next 4 years which will effectively kill or delay for a really long time the Lunar exploration.

So in a time of economic hardship the government is basically driving the death nail in the coffin for a lot of aerospace engineers and technicians jobs. These are highly skilled and highly educated people who went to college with the goal in mind to contribute to America's exploration of space. In a time where we should be preserving jobs in America policies like this will only serve to make these jobs go away. Now the government has no problem shelling out 900 billion in bailout money to failing or failed businesses but to spend a mere 4.5 billion to ensure America's supremacy in space is too much of a cost.

Not to mention the message this sends to kids all over the country who might have aspirations to be an engineer or technician. We place no value on high tech engineering jobs, we would rather give money failed investment bankers who only brought this upon themselves.

The space business is not cheap, not fast moving, certainly dangerous but compared to other garbage we waste money on, the American taxpayer gets a pretty good bang for their buck.

I think the main problem is that NASA's goals are too long term for most people to keep track of. The moon by 2020? Didn't some guys in the 60's do it in 8 years? Sure did, but they took more risks and had about 3% of the Federal budget to do it.

Also, there wasn't people in Washington trying to change NASA's goals every few years to save money in the short term. The story of NASA in the 80's and 90's is pretty depressing...constant direction changes, wasted money, and compromised goals. We finally have a chance to accomplish something great and inspiring...please just let us do our job.

I joined the space program because I wanted to contribute to man's exploration of the solar system, at this point...any changes in the goal to go to the moon will have crushed by dreams and make everything I've worked for wasted.

Can you tell I'm frustrated?

Seaver

Exploration only happens when there is a guaranteed benefit. The Europeans only explored the world when they sought out gold/spices/etc, and had the means to do it. China had a small 20 years or so of exploration and potential colonies, but never found anything to help pay for the expense of a fleet and dismantled it. Russia never really sought out and explored the tundra until just recently, and only did it searching for oil. If you go all the way back to the Peloponesian empire of thousands of years ago, they only explored the oceans to help combat overpopulation on small scattered islands.

Only when the economics, or direct competition as in the 60/70s, align with those who seek to explore does it really take off.

Essentially at this moment, there has to be tons of platinum surrounded by beautiful naked women who pump beer out of their nipples to justify the expense of sending people to the moon and then keeping the settlement going.

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inBOIL

I'm torn. On the one hand, I think it's foolish to ignore the long-term benefits we could gain because of the short-term costs. On the other hand, I don't think it's the government's place to fund this kind of thing, and it seems especially wasteful when there are serious problems (e.g. malaria) that could be solved for much less money.

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ObieX

I am a huge fan of NASA and such. I think a bit more funding would be nice. THe one thing about G.W.Bush's presidency i sorta agreed with was how he gave NASA a clear goal. Finish the space station, Get ourselves to the moon again, and finally move on to Mars and beyond. It's nice to see things slowly come together (such as the new rockets and ships being built/tested).

I want to see Bigger, Further, Faster.

Take some cash from the military and give it to NASA.

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Baraka_Guru

I always view NASA and military spending (well, the Department of Defense) as the forefront of American R&D. Isn't most of our advanced technologies a result of these programs?

I mean, isn't this how the Internet came to be? (As an example.)

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ASU2003

I'm a big fan of the space program, but for us to have a Moon base, we will need to have a purpose for it. I think the goal of constructing the largest telescope ever built (like 10x the size of Earth telescopes) on the dark side of the moon (plus an array of radio telescopes) would be an appropriate goal.

The reason the economy slowed down isn't because the tax rate is too high, at least not this time. And I think NASA does more for the legacy of each generation than most other government spending.

I do think that the Earth science people at NASA should really be with NOAA however.

Rekna

I like NASA but putting a base on the moon doesn't seem like the greatest idea to me (does the moon have any useful resources on it?). Personally I'd rather that we explored mars more. Let's establish a base there... But all of this falls second to clean renewable energies. If we could harness solar power more efficiently we could likely build a self contained ecosystem on mars.

genuinegirly

I'd like to see NASA grow.
I'm bothered that we've allowed other nations to take the lead on space exploration.
I would personally like to devleop crops to grow on the lunar space station.
I'm really hoping this dream comes about in my lifetime. If the lunar space station ends up being built by the Chinese, I hope they let us conduct research there.

A space station on the moon makes sense as a testing ground for the eventuality of space stations on more interesting balls of rock like Mars.

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ratbastid

If you just look at the sheer number of consumer-level innovations that have taken place because of the space program, it doesn't look nearly so long-term an investment.

Here's a partial list: NASA spinoffs, space benefits, space history, NASA space spinoffs, NASA technology products

Baraka_Guru

This is what I'm talking about.

I wouldn't be surprised if NASA and other programs end up being mainly responsible for solutions regarding global warming, environmental decay, and other health-related issues on a environmental scale, especially when considering how far they want to advance things in terms of a moon base, etc. Space programs collectively are the vanguard of technology and research, and the important stuff will one day be applied for use down here on Earth.

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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snowy

Bingo. People benefit from the work of NASA every day.

Personally, I'm a fan of the space program. Perhaps it's the adventurer in me that likes it, but I also see it as a great way for us to continue to do serious technological research and development.

When I was 8, I really wanted to be Sally Ride.

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ASU2003

I would like us to get to Mars, but a Moon base would be more beneficial. It is closer, and from the astronomy point of view, the far side of the Moon is really good for space research. It would involve a lot of work and technological progress to build something where Earth's radio waves can't get to (and you don't want to contaminate it with any). But the lack of any atmosphere makes it interesting.

I wonder what the sky on the far side of the Moon looks like when it is dark? I've been out in the middle of nowhere on a clear night, but having no atmosphere or any light pollution would be something else.

supersix2

Hmm so far only 2 haters...the first 2 replies. I love how people are always asking "what are the benefits of space exploration?" Well one poster put out a nice list of all the spin-offs we have thanks to the space program. Plus, the way I look at it is that we are only in the infancy stages of exploring space and possibly exploiting the resources on another planet or asteroid. To draw a parallel to something more terrestrial, what we have as far as manned spacecraft are like small sail boats. Now, you can't really cross an ocean in a small sail boat and expect to be able to establish a colony and exploit new lands for financial gain. That took hundreds of years of technological advances to get to the point where you can turn on the investment.

The idea of the moon base is to learn to live on the surface of another world that is not Earth. Having a moon base will give us the experience we need to ensure success and minimize risk for a Mars mission. Also, the Lunar dust can be processed into useful resources such as hyrdogen and oxygen.

Lasereth

There is nothing more important than space exploration. Nothing. It sickens me that our race is concerned with building big weapons and fighting over politics and land and oil when we can look up at the sky at night and say "good god, look at that." And we still don't know shit about our galaxy, much less our universe...hell, we don't know if there's organisms living on Titan or Europa. I can't believe that we spend so much time and energy on bullshit on this hunk of rock when the sheer fact that we're alive on this planet is so mind boggling that I don't understand how the general public doesn't care to find out what else is out there.

We should be pouring 5% of our federal budget (bare minimum) to catapult our race back into the glory days of the 60s when NASA and space were on the forefront. I baffles me that people can look up to the sky and not be in sheer amazement that we exist, that our universe exists. We are living beings, sentient beings, on a chunk of rock that swirled together from a bunch of dust and shit...why does no one care for further explanation??? How can people learn about Proxima Centauri and not care to get to it?

I don't really know how to explain myself but I'm sick of the space program not getting funding. The budget should be increased tenfold.

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IdeoFunk

^ Don't know if I'd go that far, but the advantages of researching and developing space technology are ridiculously huge. There's always going to be some or another of plight here on Earth regardless of how effectively we spend our resources anyways. NASA is a place where some of our best and brightest minds can work together to extend the reaches of our collective knowledge as a society, and at least in my books knowledge is power so we'd have to be fools to not cherish this. And let's get real, if the US Government really just needs to save another $1 bill/year why not just take it out of the military? I just don't see how NASA could be at the top of anybody's list of expenditures to cut.

Baraka_Guru

Lasereth, I wouldn't go as far as saying it's the most important thing, especially considering the fact that, as far as we know, Earth is the only life-sustaining system capable of allowing us to exist. The sheer vastness of what's beyond our planet is overwhelming, and we need to have a payoff: we need to gain applicable knowledge. And there is still much for us to learn here on Earth, especially when you consider how little we still know about our own bodies.

Space exploration is important, but I think Earth is more important than what's outside of it at the moment.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Martian

Also, bringing up Proxima Centauri is... odd, to say the least. Barring some unforeseen leap in our understanding of physics, we're centuries away from leaving or even fully exploring our own solar system.

Everybody's focused on Mars right now, and it's not a horrible thing -- I think the idea of going to Mars captures imagination, and it's our best option for breaking new extraterrestrial ground at the moment, since we don't really have anywhere else in the solar system that's even remotely hospitable to human life. There are, however, a number of practical issues with such a mission that need to be overcome, and a lunar base combined with knowledge gained on the International Space Station is our best way of learning how to cope with the issues that come out of such a concept.

Science fiction has conditioned people to simply gloss over the practical problems of space exploration/exploitation. We can't just reverse polarities and recombobulate tractor beams -- when something goes wrong in space, people are probably going to die. This is why it's important for us to start with relatively small steps. A lunar base is a key part of that.

I don't know why more people don't bother to understand this. Some of it gets complicated sure, but the underlying concepts are relatively simple.

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Lasereth

Don't make the assumption that I really believe we will be walking around on Jupiter's moons or making it to another solar system anytime soon -- I'm just making the point that right now no one cares about either of these topics, much less another moon landing or Mars landing, and that's frightening.

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Redjake

In order of importance:

1. Develop way to terraform Moon and Mars
2. Move some of our shit to the Moon and Mars
3. Start work on warp drive, because no other propulsion mechanism will ever allow us to go anywhere unless we get it or something as extreme to work.

I'd be willing to fork over more taxes for NASA.

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Willravel

People like to judge things they're not familiar with, supersix2. Don't let them get to you.

ASU2003

The National Science Foundation, DoE, and NASA need to work together to create a vision of what they are going to do in the next 10 years. Push the envelope a little, even if they fail they will have learned a lot.

It might be harnessing anti-matter, finding dark energy, faster than light (or even 1/2 light speed) space craft, faster than light communication (this might not be possible), testing fusion power generation in zero-g. And other stuff like that.

The_Jazz

FTL travel is impossible by all applications of physics we currently have.

Pretty much all your suggestions are impossible to accomplish within the next ten years.

But that doesn't mean I don't agree with the sentiment. I do, actually. NASA is important, and nothing yeilds unexpected results and tangible accomplishments than pure science. Case in point, digital watches and digital photography are both spring directly from NASA projects.

Moon bases and Martian explorations may seem like wastes of money until they produce something tangible. And the amount of H3 on the moon would make it worthwhile in and of itself, it seems to me.

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Halanna

Everything appears to be a waste or unnecessary until it yields a tangible benefit for the common person.

This is the problem NASA faces.

It's impossible to spin what NASA does to appease the common person.

They are more concerned about their mortgage payment, shopping trip, upcoming birthday and the fit of their jeans. They are too concerned about recycling their aluminum foil than to look at the bigger picture.

"Space Program" is a misnomer. It's advancement of the species, advancement of our knowledge, it's advancement plain and simple. I find it highly unlikely we ever launch a shuttle and don't learn something upon it's return.

The unfortunate reality is that the common person is too short sighted to look at NASA as furthering the greater good. They scream, cut NASA, increase entitlements.

I feel for you. I understand and agree. The problem lies in the general populace.

Space is not our final frontier, it's our next.

edit: cus I spel gud

supersix2

It wouldn't get to me...if the morons running this country weren't the ones listening to the naysayers. It's really popular to go after NASA for being a government money hog...when in reality it's not. So when politicians and such exploit the economy, the environment, and a bunch of new political buzzwords it becomes really easy to siphon money away from a government organization that is actually making progress and benefits everyone not only in the US but in the world.

It also wouldn't be so bad if the so called "private space industry" was moderately successful and had any hopes of putting humans into space in the near term. NASA makes space flight look easy in the public eyes but most certainly is not. You can only do so much to cut costs before you start radically cutting safety. Unfortunatley right now, NASA and other government run space programs (Russia, Europe, China) are the only ones capable of spending the amounts of money it takes to put people into space safely.


On a side note, I accidentally added my horrid misspelling of "Unfortunatley " to my dictionary for spell check (how unfortunate)...and because I'm an engineer and can't spell I am not capable of correcting it myself. How can I edit my spell check dictionary?

biznatch

I think mankind is in a race versus time. As a species, our survival in the long term depends on the feasibility of space exploration. There's quite a few ways for humanity to obliterate itself, it already has developed and mass produced and distributed the means to do so.
Seeing as how we're just tiny organisms on a rock who are spinning around a huge ball of fire at a dizzying speed without much knowledge of what surrounds us, let's try to understand it.

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SecretMethod70

Honestly? I think the space program is, hands-down, one of the most important projects in government.

Others have already said it, so I'll just reiterate: we need to learn to live elsewhere. We don't know when, but eventually the Earth will become unfriendly to human life for one reason or another. Maybe it will be in 100 years, maybe it will be in 100 million years, but it will happen. There is no time to waste.

I really have a hard time understanding why we don't have moon bases yet. I have an even harder time understanding why we haven't even set foot on the moon in nearly 40 years. It's absolutely appalling. I view the moon as our stepping stone to Mars. Cheaper to launch from there, and after having established moon bases we might have a better idea of how to make the trip work. If we had actually kept up an appropriate pace, I think we could have had humans arriving on Mars right around now - maybe in the next 5 years - but we're almost 40 years behind now.

And I'll admit, there's a certain selfishness to my opinion as well. I see that we haven't set foot on the moon in almost 40 years, and that human exploration of space has been stalling, and I feel cheated. I feel cheated because my generation could have been the first generation to take space vacations. Instead, it will be the generation after mine... if we're lucky.

Keep fighting the good fight, supersix2. I would love nothing more than to help insulate the NASA mission from political whims.

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biznatch

I just think that it'd be dumb if the only intelligent species to ever exist (that we know of) would die off without first attempting to move on, and establish new knowledge and territory. Mankind needs to come together on this, though.

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supersix2

Ahh Barney Frank...great example of the short-sightedness and clearly an enemy of manned spaceflight. He was on the O'Reilly Factor (I can't stand the show anymore but one of my co-workers told me about the interview) the other day talking about Universal Healthcare and how to pay for it. Guess what one of his targets was...

Here's the excerpt from the show:

O'REILLY: ...a progressive state, has a health care deal, but the state has a $1.5 billion deficit, and the health care entitlement has been cut back, as you know. For a state of 6.5 million people, $1.5 billion deficit. I'm worried that this health care is going to send the United States into bankruptcy. California is there now. Massachusetts is in big trouble. And can you reassure me that universal health care isn't going to bankrupt the United States of America?

FRANK: Absolutely, because there are other areas we can cut. You know, they are still talking about sending human beings to Mars for hundreds of billions of dollars, literally hundreds of billions. I'm for space exploration with instrumentation.


The figure of 1 Trillion is what the healthcare plan would cost was quoted earlier in the interview.

Frank would love to take the meager ~15 billion per year that NASA gets for EVERYTHING, that's Shuttle, ISS, Mars Rovers, deep space probes, aeronautics research and development, and future Mars and Lunar Programs. I think all and all, the money being spent on manned spaceflight is about 60% of the total NASA budget, so roughly 8 billion per year. This "hundreds of billions of dollars" Frank is referring to is spread out over decades.

The problem is that Universal Healthcare is a hot topic for a lot of people this year, and NASA is...well not. So it's really easy to promote your agenda but cutting stuff people don't seem to care about. The greater cost of it all the a severe cut back in the US aerospace industry as a whole, and a lot of really smart people with a lot of education are out of the job.

Maybe their plan is for all those people to lose the healthcare benefits they get from already having a job, so they are now dependent upon the government with its new Universal Healthcare plan...