Don't ask, don't tell, don't change - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Baraka_Guru · 09-22-2010, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cimarron29414

I believe the argument against the 14th amendment is that we are talking about behavior, not "state". Someone can discriminate against blacks...because they are obviously black. No one can discriminate on your bedroom activities unless they know about them.

But that's the thing, are these soldiers being discharged for being caught in a homosexual act or are they being discharged for being gay? Homosexuality isn't merely a behaviour, it's also a state. They don't merely have homosexual intercourse, they are in a state of being homosexual. Hiding your sexual orientation isn't as easy as simply not engaging in sex.

From now on try talking about your significant other as though they were the same sex as you but without disclosing that information. As you do that, also consider the fact that if someone does find out, you'll lose your job—nay, your career.

LGBTs in the U.S. military have to talk about their private lives either with white lies or they need to be more private than what is likely the norm. This is assuming that people who serve talk about their significant others and families, etc., with people they work with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by KirStang

Let's see how Perry v. Schwarzenegger plays out. The Court already laid the groundwork in Griswold, Loving, and Zablocki. I for one, would be surprised if it did not come out in favor of the same-sex couples.

Taking the 14th's Due Process concept of 'privacy' and it's 'respect for the marital bedroom' it does seem like such a policy would be in contravention of the 14th Amendment.

It seems to me the issue of same-sex rights is coming to a point in America. The nation is long overdue with regard to updating how they perceive human/civil rights as far as sexual orientation is concerned. Somethings gotta give. Americans value liberty too much.

Cimarron29414 · 09-22-2010, 10:50 AM

bg -

I agree with you, I was just stating the argument which is used. Many still believe (falsely) that homosexuality is a choice, and therefore a behavior. I have a dear friend who spent 28 years in the US military. During that time, he got married, had two kids, finally opened "the invitation" he'd been given since birth, divorced his wife, met and dated his husband, then married him in Florida. He was never discovered, but it sucked to be in that state of secrecy. He figures the only way he got through it was being able to talk about his kids all the time and the fact that he went reserves, so he only saw his unit 2 weeks/year plus 1 weekend/month.

Wes Mantooth · 09-22-2010, 11:38 AM

Well it is what it is I guess, I would have been more surprised if it was actually overturned to be honest. This is just the way we do things here, we debate everything endlessly and drag these issues out for decades until a consensus is reached...and we all know what the usual consensus turns out to be. You'd think we'd learn.

Anyway I too have no doubt this will someday be overturned and wind up in being another one of those issues that confuses the fuck out of future generations.

"They didn't let gay people in the military? God our grand parents were backwards and stupid."

Amaras · 09-22-2010, 12:10 PM

[QUOTE=Wes Mantooth;2824949]Well it is what it is I guess, I would have been more surprised if it was actually overturned to be honest. This is just the way we do things here, we debate everything endlessly and drag these issues out for decades until a consensus is reached...and we all know what the usual consensus turns out to be. You'd think we'd learn.

Anyway I too have no doubt this will someday be overturned and wind up in being another one of those issues that confuses the fuck out of future generations.

"They didn't let gay people in the military? God our grand parents were backwards and stupid."[/QUOTE]

Exactly what he said.

Baraka_Guru · 10-19-2010, 02:19 PM

I think this is a big step.

Quote:

Military Recruiters Told to Accept Gays
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
October 19, 2010
Filed at 6:09 p.m. ET

SAN DIEGO (AP) — The military is accepting openly gay recruits for the first time in the nation's history, even as it tries in the courts to slow the movement to abolish its "don't ask, don't tell" policy.

Some gay activist groups were planning to send people to enlist at recruiting stations to test the Pentagon's Tuesday announcement.

Meanwhile, a federal judge in California who overturned the 17-year policy last week was likely to reject the government's latest effort to halt her order telling the military to stop enforcing the law.

The Justice Department will likely appeal if she does not suspend her order.

The Defense Department has said it would comply with U.S. District Judge Virginia Phillips' order and had frozen any discharge cases. Pentagon spokeswoman Cynthia Smith said recruiters had been given top-level guidance to accept applicants who say they are gay.

Recruiters also have been told to inform potential recruits that the moratorium on enforcement of the policy could be reversed at any time, if the ruling is appealed or the court grants a stay, she said.

While activists were going to enlist, gay rights groups were continuing to tell service members to avoid revealing that they are gay, fearing they could find themselves in trouble should the law be reinstated.

"What people aren't really getting is that the discretion and caution that gay troops are showing now is exactly the same standard of conduct that they will adhere to when the ban is lifted permanently," said Aaron Belkin, executive director of the Palm Center, a think tank on gays and the military at the University of California Santa Barbara. "Yes, a few will try to become celebrities."

An Air Force officer and co-founder of a gay service member support group called OutServe said financial considerations are playing a big role in gay service members staying quiet.

"The military has financially trapped us," he said, noting that he could owe the military about $200,000 if he were to be dismissed.

The officer, who asked not to be identified for fear of being discharged, said he's hearing increasingly about heterosexual service members approaching gay colleagues and telling them they can come out now.

He also said more gay service members are coming out to their peers who are friends, while keeping their orientation secret from leadership. He said he has come out to two peers in the last few days.

"People are coming out informally in their units," the officer said. "Discussions are happening right now."

An opponent of the judge's ruling said confusion that has come up is exactly what Pentagon officials feared and shows the need for her to immediately freeze her order while the government appeals.

"It's only logical that a stay should be granted to avoid the confusion that is already occurring with reports that the Pentagon is telling recruiters to begin accepting homosexual applicants," said Tony Perkins, the president of the Family Research Council, a conservative advocacy group based in Washington that supports the policy.

The uncertain status of the law has caused much confusion within an institution that has historically discriminated against gays.

Before the 1993 law, the military banned gays entirely and declared them incompatible with military service. There have been instances in which gays have served, with the knowledge of their colleagues.

Twenty-nine nations, including Israel, Canada, Germany and Sweden, allow openly gay troops, according to the Log Cabin Republicans, a gay rights group and plaintiff in the lawsuit before Phillips.

The Pentagon guidance to recruiters comes after Dan Woods, the group's attorney, sent a letter last week warning the Justice Department that Army recruiters who turned away Omar Lopez in Austin, Texas may have caused the government to violate Phillips' injunction. Woods wrote that the government could be subject to a citation for contempt.

The White House has insisted their actions in court do not diminish President Barack Obama's efforts to repeal the ban.

In their stay request, government lawyers argue Phillips' order would be disruptive to troops serving at a time of war. They say the military needs time to prepare new regulations and train and educate service members about the change.

Phillips has said her order does not prohibit the Pentagon from implementing those measures.

Douglas Smith, spokesman for U.S. Army Recruiting Command based at Fort Knox, Ky., said even before the ruling recruiters did not ask applicants about their sexual orientation. The difference now is that recruiters will process those who say they are gay.

"If they were to self-admit that they are gay and want to enlist, we will process them for enlistment, but will tell them that the legal situation could change," Smith said.

He said the enlistment process takes time and recruiters have been told to inform those who are openly gay that they could be declared ineligible if the law is upheld on appeal.

"U.S. Army Recruiting Command is going to follow the law, whatever the law is," he said.

The message, however, had not reached some recruiting stations.

In Pensacola, Marine Sgt. Timothy Chandler said he had been given no direction. "As far as we are concerned everything is the same. The policy hasn't changed," he said, as others in the office nodded.

Chandler said no one had come to the small office questioning the policy or asking about being openly gay and serving.

Recruiters at the Navy office next door referred all media questions to the Pentagon. Air Force recruiters said they were not authorized to talk to the media. Army recruiters referred questions to another office in Mobile, Ala.

Phillips said at a hearing Monday that she was learning toward denying the Obama administration's request to delay her order. That would send the case to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco.

After Phillips' ruling last week, Lopez — discharged from the Navy in 2006 after admitting his gay status to his military doctor — walked into an Army recruiting office in Austin and asked if he could re-enlist.

He said he was up front, even showing the recruiters his Navy discharge papers. But they told him he couldn't re-enlist because they had not gotten word from the Pentagon to allow openly gay recruits.

Smith was unable to confirm the account. She said guidance on gay applicants had been issued to recruiting commands on Oct. 15.

On Tuesday, upon hearing of the changes to recruiting, Lopez said, "Oh, my God! I've been waiting for this for four years."

Lopez said he'll try again Friday and will go to a Navy recruiting office in Austin to see if he can enroll in ROTC as an officer. He is currently studying hospitality services at Austin Community College.

"I'm hoping they'll let me in because I was able to switch over from an enlistment to an officer. I'm really hoping they can accept me," he said.

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2010...-Military.html

Tully Mars · 10-19-2010, 02:23 PM

I agree, wonder what the DOJ will do with their appeal now? I presume there's some backroom deal going on somewhere and Obama is trying to have it both ways.

But I do think this is a big deal and a step in the right direction.

09-22-2010, 10:50 AM	#42 (permalink)
Cimarron29414 Still Free Location: comfortably perched at the top of the bell curve!	bg - I agree with you, I was just stating the argument which is used. Many still believe (falsely) that homosexuality is a choice, and therefore a behavior. I have a dear friend who spent 28 years in the US military. During that time, he got married, had two kids, finally opened "the invitation" he'd been given since birth, divorced his wife, met and dated his husband, then married him in Florida. He was never discovered, but it sucked to be in that state of secrecy. He figures the only way he got through it was being able to talk about his kids all the time and the fact that he went reserves, so he only saw his unit 2 weeks/year plus 1 weekend/month. __________________ Gives a man a halo, does mead. "Here lies The_Jazz: Killed by an ambitious, sparkly, pink butterfly."

09-22-2010, 11:38 AM	#43 (permalink)
Wes Mantooth Junkie Location: Tennessee	Well it is what it is I guess, I would have been more surprised if it was actually overturned to be honest. This is just the way we do things here, we debate everything endlessly and drag these issues out for decades until a consensus is reached...and we all know what the usual consensus turns out to be. You'd think we'd learn. Anyway I too have no doubt this will someday be overturned and wind up in being another one of those issues that confuses the fuck out of future generations. "They didn't let gay people in the military? God our grand parents were backwards and stupid." __________________ “My god I must have missed it...its hell down here!”

09-22-2010, 12:10 PM	#44 (permalink)
Amaras Junkie Location: At my daughter's beck and call.	[QUOTE=Wes Mantooth;2824949]Well it is what it is I guess, I would have been more surprised if it was actually overturned to be honest. This is just the way we do things here, we debate everything endlessly and drag these issues out for decades until a consensus is reached...and we all know what the usual consensus turns out to be. You'd think we'd learn. Anyway I too have no doubt this will someday be overturned and wind up in being another one of those issues that confuses the fuck out of future generations. *"They didn't let gay people in the military? God our grand parents were backwards and stupid."[/*QUOTE] Exactly what he said. __________________ Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state. -Noam Chomsky Love is a verb, not a noun. -My Mom The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later. -Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

10-19-2010, 02:23 PM	#46 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	I agree, wonder what the DOJ will do with their appeal now? I presume there's some backroom deal going on somewhere and Obama is trying to have it both ways. But I do think this is a big deal and a step in the right direction. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club