Strange Famous

Certainly it must be intended as either a racial or sexist comment. It is possible of course that the person making that statement may not be a racist, someone who is not racist can make racist statements (and someone who is not sexist can make sexist statements)... the person may have reconsidered their opinion, have mispoken, and so on. But if as I gather the person who said this is a judge that raises some very serious questions. It should be possible to apply the law without taking into account personal prejudice, but all human beings are fallible in this regard.

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for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing
hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain
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Baraka_Guru

Another vote for context.

In the right context, I'd hope for the same thing.

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—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Derwood

And anyone who thinks the current members of SCOTUS are robots who only apply the law via the constitution is seriously fooling themselves

pan6467

But the question to start the thread is "Is This a Racist Statement".

It asks what your belief of a single statement is.

As I said above, it's politics, bitch moan and cry unfair but when your side has the chance it does the same thing.

In politics there are no saints, there is no one above getting dirty to get what they want. To say it's only one sided is bull ship and hypocritical.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

aceventura3

Not only is it racist, it is inflammatory - no matter who says it and regardless of context. The statement has no place in the law and has no intellectual merit. There is no doubt that one's experiences will influence decisions, but the goal of any person with integrity is to understand those influences and minimize the impact those experiences would have on coming to fair and objective conclusions. It seems that Sotomayor not only is not willing to minimize who she is and her experiences but that she thinks they actually add value under the law. They need to do more than say she misspoke or used the wrong words, we need an explanation of how she actually thinks.

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"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Derwood

You have 100's and 100's of her judicial decisions to base that on

aceventura3

And....we should have the right to have her answer questions about how she came to her conclusions including how she came to the conclusion that being a latina would make her better able to sit in judgment as compared to anyone else. That is an absurd statement on its face, ethnicity or race has absolutely no impact on a person's ability to process information and if she is saying she carries a bias as it applies to her job as a judge and that the bias should be accentuated rather than minimized she should resign as a judge and should not be on the SCOTUS.

{added} Perhaps they simply need to be honest and say she was pandering to her audience, which has been all too common for Obama people.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

I would point back to the article/analysis I posted of her judicial decisions on race discrimination issues as well as the comparison to a statement made by Alito re: how the immigrant experience of his Italian-American grandparents influences his thought process....

...but I was informed it was deleted because I broke the house rules. Evidently one comment in a 4-5 para response (with accompanying links and a youtube vid) was taboo

We certainly dont want people to look at anything beyond the one line in a speech in order to have an honest discussion.

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roachboy

what is with the conservative resistance to context?
a hundred years ago, it was routinely conservatives who claimed to be oriented toward the concrete and their opponents toward the abstract.
seems that this has been stood on its head in the intervening period.


granted there are some statements which on their own are transparently racist--but these seem to me a special case, typically involving some type of derogatory word or expression.
there is no way that the sentence taken entirely out of context in the op falls into that class of statements. it's simply and empirically false to claim it does.

what it does have is a formulation that plays into the conservative canard of "reverse racism""---but since it's being floated in a rather pathetic attempt to smear a supreme court nominee--and given that her actual decisions make mincemeat of the conservative smear--i dont entirely understand why the discussion here is still happening.

more often than not, it's when a thread has passed the point of coherent discussion but continues to twitch along anyway that things grow snarky.
maybe it'd be better to read through and decide whether it's a waste of time to continue the discussion, if a point has been demonstrated or its contrary demonstrated so that the argument is effectively over--if you want to continue the discussion, but find yourself confronted with a game that's over, start another thread in which you make your argument by using a different tack.

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it make you sick.

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filtherton

I think the reason that it appears absurd to you is that you don't understand what she was talking about.

dippin

You mean like the rest of the actual speech where the sentence came from? If people are too lazy to read it here's the cliffnotes:

She was discussing the impact of increased minority and female participation in law, and discussed how every key case on discrimination, segregation and so on had a minority or female either judging or advocating the case. As such, he says that the idea that wise men and wise women reach the same wise decisions was false, because there are more than one definitions of what a wise decision is, and in this context of judging and discussing discrimination, a Latina woman with the experiences related to discrimination that come with the territory should (but will not necessarily) reach a wiser decision than a man who has never experienced that type of discrimination.

She then goes on to say that the real challenge is to know when that experience is biasing their judgment and when that experience is enriching it, and that no one should adopt the identity of the "Latin Judge" or whatever other minority.

Not at all different from what Alito said, but apparently the same people who are quick to deny even the possibility of racism elsewhere in this case are so hellbent as to ignore any and every shred of evidence that they are wrong. At no point does she say that minorities make better judges, and that in fact is entirely contradicted several times during that speech, which would make sense given that her entire point is that there are more than one possible wise decisions.

mixedmedia

how dare you, sir, come upon this thread with information and context. pshaw.

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Tully Mars

Does seem a rather odd tack to take in the present heated winds.

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Baraka_Guru

Hm. It's funny how there is a difference between a racist statement and a statement about race. It's funny how decontextualization works.

I meant "funny" odd, not "funny" har har.

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Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
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Charlatan

This is why context is important, rather than impotent.

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Seaver

At first it made me wary, but after looking up many of her actual judicial decisions I don't see it actually arriving in her decisions. She's thrown out many racial discrimination lawsuits, and appears that she (for the most part) stays relatively unbiased. My only fear is keeping the court to decide impartially on current laws and not attempting to legislate from the bench, but I see no impact from this quote to show any evidence of that.

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aceventura3

I don't have a general resistance to context. Her statement is clear and stands on its own merits. Was she pandering, or does she believe personal bias should be accentuated rather than minimized as she sits in judgment? My take on this is not the standard right wing take that I have been hearing.

the problem with promoting one's race/gender/experiences is the risk of insulting those who are different. Her statement is inflammatory.

---------- Post added at 01:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 AM ----------

You don't know who or what I am, so what is your basis for that comment?

---------- Post added at 01:56 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:52 AM ----------

That is b.s. when it come to the law. Our goal is to live in a world where the law is truly blind. Her comment suggests we are making no progress in that regard. Are liberals throwing up the white (pardon the pun) flag on King's dream?

alito, indicated what I have said, that we all have biases, our goal with the law should be to minimize those biases.

---------- Post added at 02:01 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:56 AM ----------

How about an honest response to my question. was she pandering to her audience with her comment? That is a part of context as well as the words surrounding her comment.

How about an honest response to my comment that her statement was inflammatory? That is a part of our national context when it comes to race/gender issues.

Seems some want to pick and choose their "context" reference points. But I stand by the view that her comment was clear and stands on its own.

---------- Post added at 02:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 AM ----------

How many have involved female latina's? Isn't that the issue? In fact isn't her heritage very different than many others who are under the broader definition of term she used? In some cases the differences are very sharp ones.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

filtherton

It was based on the way you've misinterpreted what she said.

Charlatan

From what I am reading she seems to be saying pretty much the same thing.


She might be speaking to a specific audience, yes. I have no problem with tailoring your speech to a specific audience. But again, when viewed in the context of all of her rulings (actions speak louder than words) she appears to be a solid candidate.

I don't think what she said is especially inflammatory at all. Rather, it think this needless nit picking and pulling a fraction of what was said out of context is extremely inflammatory. Just as I find much of what the GOP is doing these days is inflammatory rather than inciteful.



I am glad you are resolute in your clarity but from where I am sitting your position looks rather fogged in the steam coming from the right.

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dippin

Alito said that his family's struggles with discrimination made him more aware of that. A very similar position to what she said.

And who said anything about justice not being colorblind?

In any case, the way to achieve a so called colorblind society is not to pretend that we are currently a colorblind society. She raised a pertinent empirical issue: why is it that every landmark decision that reversed previous positions on segregation and discrimination necessarily had a minority either on the bench or arguing the case. And her response is that while the men who tried those cases before may have been wise, they lacked any first hand experience in the matter to fully understand the perspective of the discriminated.

And she never once claimed that these minorities then should be biased in one way or the other, and as her record shows, she hasnt been biased one way or the other.

---------- Post added at 06:20 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:14 PM ----------

Claiming that hot is actually cold doesn't make it so. I (and others) am saying that you should look at the entire speech. You are the one who is picking and choosing things from what she said.

Looking at the entire speech is certainly no "picking and choosing." Refusing to discuss anything but a misinterpretation of one isolated sentence is.

FoolThemAll

Gosh, you're so helpful. That completely clears it all up.

Protip: if endless streams of questions aggravate you, you should probably stop begging them.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

Protip: when your main mode of arguing consists of only asking questions, every statement begs questions.

aceventura3

Yes, I am confused.

On one hand people seem to suggest that diversity based on race/gender/ethnicity is a good thing for our judicial system.

On the other people seem to suggest that in her rulings race/gender/ethnicity had no impact on her judgments.

Which is it? What was her point?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Baraka_Guru

Not a big fan of the Socratic method, are we?

I agree, though, it is more geared toward teaching than it is debating.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

aceventura3

Then they are both wrong.

I am also confused by the logic used to rationalize issues. If a conservative did it or said it then it is o.k., I think not. From what I understand about Alito's comment was that he did not include words like "better", I could be wrong but I think that is at the core of this issue. I admit that everyone brings their heritage and culture with them.

However, when it comes to the law, heritage and culture should have no importance. I can understand if McDonald's puts a female latina on its board of directors if the company is trying to grow in that market, but when it comes to the law - justice should be blind.

Is her point acceptable?


Again, see my questions above. What value is her heritage and culture if it plays no role in her rulings what was her point? If it did play a role, is that justice?

What about empathy to those who might see the comment different than you? I understand some not seeing the comment as inflammatory, but on the other hand, I see why many do. Is she failing the "empathy" test? Or does "empathy" only apply to certain groups.

There is no doubt she is qualified based on education and experience, I doubt she did not know the importance and impact of her words. Based on that I doubt she is surprised by the reaction. Based on that some of us deserve a more detailed explanation of her views on this issue, and it is not nit picky.


I am not clear on what she meant, nor am I clear on what her intent was. I agree I am in a fog, that is why I am asking questions. that is why I want her to clarify this issue.

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:01 PM ----------

I think she said that she would make better decisions because of her ethnicity and genders. I am not getting that Alito said that.

Perhaps it is just a pipe dream of mine.


I think that is faulty logic. It is disturbing if that is how she connects the dots. I think it is an insult to many historical people who had the courage to do what is right in the face of social and political pressures.

So, what was her point?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Tully Mars

I really can't claim to know but based on the rulings she actually issued I'd say it isn't what you seem to think it is/was.

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roachboy

ace, i believe that the text which surrounded the factoid presented as if it were a problem of some kind in the op has already been posted. the way you work out what she meant is that you read the text. you know, check out the context. this isn't rocket science.

geez, you'd think that reading in context was going to give you a rash or something.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

FoolThemAll

Take a nice hard look at that thread you abandoned and you'll discover that this advice is misaimed. When you don't put much effort into explaining your position, you're going to get questions. That's just how it goes.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

filtherton

It ain't just that thread.

I know you have opinions. It would be nice to be able to engage them without having to infer them from the direction of your questions. It's kind of a cowardly way of arguing... I'm not saying that you're a coward, just that you argue like one.

aceventura3

Interesting way to answer the question. I came to the conclusion that her words where b.s. and that she was pandering to her audience, simply saying what she thought they wanted to hear. I think she takes her role as a judge seriously and I can not imagine she actually believes that ethnicity/gender has anything to do with a jurist coming to just decisions.

---------- Post added at 05:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:22 PM ----------

If it was that simple in this the age of obama speak. For example what did obama mean when he talked to lefties in S.F. about those people clinging to their religion and guns. What did that mean? Obama people seem to talk in code to certain audiences.

And, if it was so, so simple why can't I get direct answers to my simple questions?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

YaWhateva

I love these 'gotcha quotes' that the right decried all during the campaign when directed at their candidates but embrace wholeheartedly when it's directed at the opposing party.

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roachboy

ace---at this point, we're entering the outer reaches of the endgame of this debate. you've been presented with more than enough information and arguments from a variety of folk to effectively rebut your position. it's hard to say what your motivation is in refusing to see the tactical situation you're in---maybe because there's no particular rules of debate here so folk can decide as they like where things are. but to my mind, your position is entirely untenable and debate is finished.

maybe start another thread using different (hopefully, for your sake, stronger) material, or introduce something else.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

Here is where I am:

"On one hand people seem to suggest that diversity based on race/gender/ethnicity is a good thing for our judicial system.

On the other people seem to suggest that in her rulings race/gender/ethnicity had no impact on her judgments.

Which is it? "

No clarification has been offered. You are correct, time to move on, because no clarification can be given.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

FoolThemAll

It ain't just that thread in which I don't exemplify your criticism?

It would be nice for you to both explain and back up this criticism, but that would involve me asking you questions and I don't see that going anywhere. I'm not saying you're a coward, and a pretentious one at that, just that you persistently avoid stating your ideas clearly like one.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Jinn

Since this is Page 2 and many probably lost the quotation in the block of text, it is worth repeating:

Sotomayor's ACTUAL quote is:

While this quote is frequently truncated or given without context, I think perhaps now would be a good time for a lesson in subject-verb agreement. Her ENTIRE sentence, as quoted, provides two actors (nouns) who are described and given attributions (adjectives) and who ultimately perform an action (verb).

In this case, then, the first entity is a "wise Latina woman" attributed a "richness of experience" who has "lived that life" (whatever that may be is left to the reader. The second entity is a "white male" who "hasn't lived that life." In considering the adjectives and the formulation of the sentence (PARTICULARLY when referencing preceding sentences) it is clear that her point is not that being Latina causes a predisposition for 'better decisions' but actually of 'richness of experience.' She conveys before and after this quotation that many white male Justices WITH a richness of experience performed well. As an example: "we'd be myopic as to believe that others of different experiences or backgrounds are incapable of understanding the values and needs of people from a different group. Many are so capable."

While her connotation leaves much to be desired, the quotation has a rather unmistakable meaning to those who read it in context. She is declaring that individuals with a richness of experience (whether through race, life, judicial experience or 'school of hard knocks' experience) will more often than not (in itself, a largely uncommitted assertion) reach a better conclusion. The only time race is connoted is in ancillary adjectives describing the actors in her hypothetical situation, and they form the majority of her argument ONLY if you're victim to the confirmation bias which allows you to presuppose her intent was racist.

---------- Post added at 02:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:43 PM ----------

Sotomayor's speech, taken as a whole, addresses those considerations equally. I heartily suggest another review of her opinion, if you have the time. She specifically addresses that it would be myopic to IGNORE that judges have important life experience which they rely on in interpreting case law, as we all do in our daily lives. She continues to argue that we shouldn't ignore those experiences, but we should mindful of our duty to determine when they are appropriate.

From her speech: "I can and do aspire to be greater than the sum total of my experiences but I accept my limitations. I willingly accept that we who judge must not deny the differences resulting from experience and heritage but attempt, as the Supreme Court suggests, continuously to judge when those opinions, sympathies and prejudices are appropriate."

---------- Post added at 02:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:46 PM ----------

As a final word, I do understand the neo-conserative ideal that we're all truly separate from our experience, that we're all capable of making decisions regardless of bias or presupposition, but I do not accept that position. I would be content acknowledging that a Conservative can disagree with the premise that a "richness of experience" will affect a Judge's ruling. I disagree on the basis that we're can never be emotionless robots, interpreters of the letter and the word of the law. Many meanings which are intended are not conveyed in the words of a law, and many meanings which are NOT intended are indeed conveyed by the words of the law. It is the job of a Supreme Court justice (and any interpreter, whether it be a Biblical literalist, a judge in a court of law or an arbitrator) to INTERPRET the text before them. Interpretation always takes the bias of the interpreter. As an apt example, examine the differences between different versions of The Holy Bible. Why does the King James differ so greatly from the NIV? They're coming from the same source languages (Arameic, Greek), and should thereby reach the same English interpretation, should they not? As history has shown us before and will continue to show us, humans are subject to their bias, and you cannot interpret in a truly egalitarian way. The best we can hope for is that Judges understand when and how their experience can and should be used; when it is and isn't appropriate. We also counterbalance this by staffing a Supreme Court with individuals of VARYING experience, ethnicity, gender and belief such that even in the individual failing - being inablity to determine one's own bias - it will be balanced by the remaining members of the Judicial body.

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filtherton

I don't mind the Socratic method when a professor is using it. It can be a motivating/challenging way to learn.

I think that in a discussion about, say, smoking bans it is a bit out of place.

I don't think your problems with the things I say stem from a lack of clarity on my part. Clearly we have ideological differences, you and I. And no, it ain't just the thread where you "don't" exemplify my criticism. Though it is interesting to note that your opening question exemplifies the type of debating style I'm attempting to avoid, in that you're clearly feigning ignorance with a question and your question is phrased in such a way so as to betray your contempt for whatever you're pretending to be ignorant about.

The thread I abandoned wasn't the our first conversation. We have a rich tradition of me saying something, you pretending like you don't understand what I'm saying so that you can ask a question about it. Then when I answer your question, you just respond with another question, ad infinitum, until I stop responding.

The reason I abandoned the above-mentioned thread is that it finally dawned on me that there isn't any point in attempting to have a discussion when my every response is going to be met with some form of "but why?" I feel like the crime of filling innocent threads with terse, line-by-line rebuttals is some a waste of everybody's time. Call it personal growth, I guess.

I mean, we've gone over this same track for abortion, cigarette bans, landlord racial discrimination, etc. Now I guess we're going over it with respect to my response to aceventura's aversion to context.

And you're deluding yourself if you think you can pass off your questions as some sort of honest effort to get beyond some sort of lack of clarity on my part. The questions you frequently ask often drip with the kind of derision that would be completely out of place if all you were trying to do was understand my perspective. Beyond that, your questions are typically leading, which to me means you think you already know the answer to them and are asking them to point the conversation in a particular direction. Presumably, the fact that you think you already know the answer to a question is due in part to the fact that you feel comfortable in your understanding of the statement that inspired the question, no?

Now, I'm not trying to hurt your feelings. You're clearly intelligent, passionate and thoughtful. I'm just trying to explain to you why I'm not particularly inclined to engage you in message board discussions.

FoolThemAll

Sure, I'll cop to an instance of annoying style there. I do indeed have contempt for a style that responds to "Uh, that very thread counters your criticism" with "That's not the only thread that supports my criticism!"

Nah, excepting that one snipe above, I can't remember an exchange between us where that was the case. It's not a matter of pretending, it's a matter of getting your unstated assumptions, headwork, and leaps into the open. When, for instance, you call those gay marriage falsehoods 'convenient', you're making an implicit claim as to whether opponents in general earnestly believed those falsehoods. And you're making that claim without being bold enough to outright say it, detail it, and defend it.

I'll point out again that my posts in that thread weren't exactly as homogenous as you portray. Consider that maybe the other posters were doing something that you weren't.

You take issue with derision now? (Crap, did it again.)

It's entirely possible that you have some new angle on an issue that I hadn't yet considered and it would honestly be easier to see such an angle if you weren't so averse to my questions. In the interim, though, apparently shallow thinking phrased in shallow ways will tend to strike me as shallow. And here's a personal stake for that last issue: your shallow statement amounted to the idea that many of my friends and family are bigots, with all the ugly things that term connotes.

Yes, that direction is the unstated - possibly unexamined - parts of your argument.

I won't complain if the light is shone on mine.

I'm not all that hurt by an attempt to rationalize a dodge via deflection - just annoyed.

__________________
I wonder if we're stuck in Rome.

Jinn

Soooo anyone else have anything to add to this thread?

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Derwood

against what rules? this isn't labeled a Pub Discussion....

Sun Tzu

I was suprised to learn George H.W. Bush nominated her to the Federal Bench in 1992.

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