Crime in the Netherlands: A Case for Cannabis Legalization? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Willravel · 05-24-2009, 03:43 PM

I don't think it comes as some great shock to people that Amsterdam gains a lot of tourism because of drug policy in the Neatherlands: namely a pragmatic "we can't ban them so let's control them" policy. While it's technically a misdemeanor to possess or use marijuana, Dutch law enforcement doesn't really enforce the statutes. The result? Coffeeshops are flourishing businesses, preventative policies are helping to prevent (who'da thunk it?) the negative effects of harder drugs on society, and here's the kicker: The Dutch justice ministry has announced it will close eight prisons and cut 1,200 jobs in the prison system.. That's right, 8 prisons and 1,200 jobs in the prison system are disappearing overnight because imprisonment in the Netherlands has dropped off considerably since the change in policy.

I know the general consensus on TFP is likely in support of legalization of at least marijuana, but there still seem to be many that are in support of the continuing prohibition. Looking at the situation from a purely pragmatic standpoint, what effect could this information have on the American public? Could this be a strong piece of evidence in the case against marijuana prohibition, or will people just shrug it off?

Derwood · 05-24-2009, 03:55 PM

Legalizing Marijuana is like Gay Marriage or any other number of progressive issues: they are more likely to happen when the current generation of lawmakers has given way to the younger, more open-minded members of our society.

Willravel · 05-24-2009, 04:10 PM

Meanwhile we incarcerate people that would never hurt a fly and we prevent people in love from marrying. Dogmatic and unsupportable opinion shouldn't be able to win out over truth, even in the short term.

I have to be greedy on these issues, I'm not willing to wait for slow, eventual change.

Derwood · 05-24-2009, 04:19 PM

I don't want slow change either, but I understand what we're up against. Makes me want congressional term limits more and more every day

timalkin · 05-24-2009, 08:11 PM

Seaver · 05-24-2009, 09:25 PM

One of the issues I wish conservatives would get on board about. Reduce government spending on enforcement, prisons, and reinstatement policies.

Keep the drug laws for the hard stuff such as crack/meth/etc, but the lighter stuff such as pot/ex tax it.

Charlatan · 05-24-2009, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

1200 jobs cut? What about all of those people who have families to feed? I wouldn't think that anybody losing their jobs would be a good thing in this economy.

And how many jobs would be created from the Cannabis industry in the US?

If the goal is just to grow the prison system, keep going. But what would you rather have? An expanded and expensive prison system paid for by your tax dollars OR legalized cannabis that can become a source of tax revenue and jobs?

Tully Mars · 05-25-2009, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

And how many jobs would be created from the Cannabis industry in the US?

If the goal is just to grow the prison system, keep going. But what would you rather have? An expanded and expensive prison system paid for by your tax dollars OR legalized cannabis that can become a source of tax revenue and jobs?

The latter sir, the latter.

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 05:02 AM

I basically agree with this take on it: Drug Legalization? Drugs Should Not Be Legalized - Just Say No to Drug Legalization

This is yet another issue the left would prefer to argue in such simplistic terms, such that any dissenting opinion is can only be considered closed-minded because:

1. It creates jobs
2. No More prisons! (I can't wait for the day that eye-sore of a prison is destroyed, and those poor flea loving residents are out enjoying themselves...I wonder what they like to do for fun? Maye i would even make some new friends!)
3. Tourism money (yes, because not only would I like drug users touring my neighborhood, their notorious for having extra money to dump into the economy)
4. Look at Amsterdam!!!! (if you've been there, I'm sure you see the hilarity of this argument)

Next step, draw a parallel between this position and.......... :

1. You hate gays....check
2. racist bastard! ...wait for it.....

Will, coffee shops are flourishing? arent you concerned about the health of the workers who are just trying to make a living and being forced to subject themselves to the long-term effects of the second hand smoke, but the immediate dangers of working with a contact high?

What about me? I just want to enjoy a coffee. Why should I havge to worry about these things.

Derwood · 05-25-2009, 06:35 AM

I've been to Amsterdam 10 times. I'd take it over most US cities any day of the week (and I don't do any drugs)

roachboy · 05-25-2009, 06:50 AM

i think that us drug laws are crazy--but they definitely benefit, and in a major way the entirety of the prison-industrial complex (a name i quite like)...which is after all in addition to it's many other delights a source of cheap labor for major corporations in some cases, and a supplier of cheap goods in others. hooray for capitalism at its finest and most naked. these laws are also a fundamental element in how conservatives have "managed" some of the consequences of the radical transfer of wealth away from anything remotely like a functional distribution. but the rationale for all this operates on other grounds: puritanism; class anxiety; "security"--you know, the right's favorites. so it's no wonder that many conservatives oppose change to this fine system.

but i'm pleased to see exceptions, and here from seaver.

you can't separate drug laws in holland from the more general social-democratic approach they've adopted. of course it has advantages and disadvantages, but the former outweigh the latter i think. we could have a discussion about this, but it'd push the thread away from the op....

to evaluate the outcomes of dutch drug laws, i don't think it's required that anyone pretend that amsterdam is shangri-la. it's hard to figure out whether a straw man is still a straw man when the man term refers to a city...this will occupy me for a few minutes.

Willravel · 05-25-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

1200 jobs cut? What about all of those people who have families to feed? I wouldn't think that anybody losing their jobs would be a good thing in this economy.

I thought conservatives believed in the free market.

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

Will, coffee shops are flourishing? arent you concerned about the health of the workers who are just trying to make a living and being forced to subject themselves to the long-term effects of the second hand smoke, but the immediate dangers of working with a contact high?

No one is forcing people to work in coffee shops just like when smoking was legal in bars in the US no one was forcing people to work there. Also, contact high is always lower than actually smoking, say, a bowl or a jay. Anyway, some people want to work in that environment. I don't want to freak you out or anything, but I know people that would think it's a lot of fun to be high all day. It'd be their dream job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

What about me? I just want to enjoy a coffee. Why should I have to worry about these things.

You can go to the myriad shops that don't have weed.

FelixP · 05-25-2009, 07:16 AM

I support both gay marriage and the legalization of pot, but I think using this study to justify US legalization could be dangerous. There are simply too many variables. Isn't Holland a socialist state? My sister has been there twice, and she described it as being a wonderful place where people are free to be themselves, a place without judgement (unless you're American, then prepare to be judged). I inferred that it was a seedy shithole, but the same things that led me to my opinion led her to think that it was great, so who knows. My point is , America and the Netherlands are such different places in so many ways, who knows how it would actually turn out in the US? Like I said, I support it, I just think we should gather more relevant info.

Concerning the prison system, there are FAR more gun crimes (hell, violent crimes period) in the US than in Holland, so we can't really expect the same thing. A lot of people in for pot charges (distribution, manufacturing) are in gangs. I'm not talking about small time users here; smoking pot doesn't make you a criminal.

About the coffee shops, the coffee shops that sell pot aren't really coffee shops, that's just what they're called. So go to a REAL coffee shop, and you won't have to deal with it. I'm sure the anti-smoking laws we have in place for tobacco would be applied to pot as well.

Willravel · 05-25-2009, 07:30 AM

Maybe if everyone is operating on a calm high there will be less gun crime?

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 09:21 AM

"You can go to the myriad shops that don't have weed."

"No one is forcing people to work in coffee shops"

"About the coffee shops, the coffee shops that sell pot aren't really coffee shops, that's just what they're called. So go to a REAL coffee shop, and you won't have to deal with it."

I'm lazy, my wrist is broken, and dont feel like searching for an old smoking ban thread, but this is great...i didn't realize it would be this easy. Will, would you like to revisit the whole smoking ban debate?

Pictue this next door to you. "Matthew330's Bar**"

**smoke em if you got em bitch, go to a real bar if you don't like it.

That's legal right felix? INteresting, I did not know that.

Willravel · 05-25-2009, 09:43 AM

I don't support the smoking ban. I don't like that people smoke, I think it's stupid, but it's not my place to force them to stop unless I'm directly impacted by their actions. I'm not.

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 11:05 AM

Perhaps Will, this will sound familiar to you:

"I've decided to shift my policy on smoking. I support a full ban.
If you want to smoke, grow it in your closet and don't get caught."

I feel certain I've heard you yourself argue in favor of bans out of a concern for worker health, butI had no success in finding that. HOwever, when it was brought up in this thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...e-right-3.html , I never saw you say "no-one is forcing them to work there)

And Derwood, if you like Amsterdam that much, wouldn't it be easier to move yourself there, then move Amsterdam here. Seems a bit selfish. I after all, like it better here. And perhpas this will sound familiar to you:

"Smokers need to realize that there are no laws on the books protecting their right to smoke. So, with that said, they have absolutely NO leg to stand on as far as demanding a dry, safe, warm place to smoke".

What if its a warm, safe "coffee shop" (but not really)

Derwood · 05-25-2009, 11:12 AM

matthew, you're tilting at windmills.

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 11:16 AM

yeah, well your tilting at wind......uh.....chimes. Booyah!

Willravel · 05-25-2009, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by matthew330

Perhaps Will, this will sound familiar to you:

"I've decided to shift my policy on smoking. I support a full ban.
If you want to smoke, grow it in your closet and don't get caught."

Upon later reflection, I changed my mind. I feel my current position is stronger.

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 11:23 AM

I agree Will, it's just misguided....your almost there. I'm here to help. Its an under 30, over 30 thing.

roachboy · 05-25-2009, 11:45 AM

so if i understand such logic as there is behind your position, matthew, what you're saying is that legalization of marijuana would make everyplace amsterdam and you imagine that you wouldn't like everyplace being amsterdam.

i don't remember making everyplace into amsterdam being part of any argument for legalizing marijuana, and so am not sure why you imagine that opposing everyplace turning into amsterdam is of much interest, logically or otherwise.

or you could just be trolling.
in which case, i'd advise you to stop.

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 12:16 PM

roach darling...

I suppose I should have left tilting windmills alone. but it sounds like your problem with my part of this is that I suggested it would be easier for Derwood to move to Amsterdam then moving Amsterdam here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did say he would take Amsterdam over most US cities any day of the week This is a thread about marijuana legalization, so I'm taking that in context. He thinks their drug laws, , despite him not doing drugs. have something to do with that fact. I wasn't being dismissive telling him to leave, I was merely suggesting the obvious.

Let the man speak for himself if I said something to offend him, but that wasn't my intention, and I never heard him complain.

Meanwhile, it's real awkward calling another dude "darling", even when your trying to make a point about what real "trolling" is.

roachboy · 05-25-2009, 12:30 PM

i don't know what you could possibly mean by that matthew. darling is a term of endearment. you know that.
besides, i don't believe i put that in the post above.
i just looked and it's not there.

i don't mix games.

how we can move on now, yes?

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 12:35 PM

hahahah - it really is too easy. Sure, when you've called conservatives darling here...my bad, I really thought it was a condescending thing.

...and I move on with every post I make. If you can, well me too...

Willravel · 05-25-2009, 12:35 PM

You're confusing trolling with flirting. And as romantic a gesture as that is, I think roachboy is taken.

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 12:57 PM

you should all take the time to read back through this.

Roachboy decided to take his personal time to reflect on whether or not this minuscule point #4 was a strawman
4. Look at Amsterdam!!!! (if you've been there, I'm sure you see the hilarity of this argument)

you basically completely stopped talking about something you felt strongly enough to start a thread over that I thought I'd engage you in, and I've been accused of tilting windmills and trolling. I love roach, frankly disappointed in his unavailability because there could be a connection there, but seriously...this is a total fucking joke. Good attempt at derailing the argument into something so pathetic, someone will get warned/banned.....but i don't always fall for that, try again

And don't ever accuse me of tilting windmills, the line in the sand has been drawn.

Derwood · 05-25-2009, 01:17 PM

the tilting windmills accusation was based on you arguing against Will and myself despite the fact that we haven't actively disagreed with you. You're projecting your opposing viewpoint onto us

matthew330 · 05-25-2009, 01:24 PM

okay, thanks for clearing that up. I'd never heard it before and it sounded REALLY bad. I'm glad I didn't go with my initial inclination to hit the "report post" button.

Derwood · 05-25-2009, 01:31 PM

it's a Don Quixote reference

Willravel · 05-25-2009, 01:45 PM

I'm getting a déjà vu.

roachboy · 05-25-2009, 02:11 PM

matthew--just to say it, i responded mostly to the tone of your posts above mine. it's not a big deal. if it had been a big deal, i would have at the least put things in yellow and not played around with the amsterdam argument. no need to get in a snit.

as for my availability: i am of negociable virtue.

2rollinstone · 05-25-2009, 04:45 PM

Portugal isn't alone. From a pilot program in London that lets marijuana users off with a warning to a law in France that allows police to use discretion on tolerance, Europe has been moving toward a more practical approach to drug use.

The Portuguese law, which took effect July 1, 2001 eliminates the threat of prison for possession of small amounts of any drug. Critics have charged that it opens Portugal to the threat of drug tourism, meaning addicts or casual users lured here by the promise of using drugs without risking jail.

Backers of the measure call that view a mistake, because drugs remain illegal, with their use punishable by fines or community service--just not prison time. And being caught with even one joint could send you to the anti-addiction commission, supporters point out.

"We're trying a sort of third way between the hard approach you have in the United States and the soft approach some countries have, like Holland," said Vitalino Canas, Portugal's drug policy czar. "We are not allowing any legal use of drugs. It's not the same as in Holland."

Willravel · 05-25-2009, 04:49 PM

Welcome to the forum, 2rollinstone.

It sounds like governments are really worried about the PR of decriminalization, and I don't blame them. The anti-drug folks have been controlling the conversation for two generations. When you look at the sheer numbers of prisoners in the US vs. the Netherlands, I dunno, doesn't the policy sell itself? I don't like getting taxed for a massive prison system has a lot of people that just like to smoke weed.

05-24-2009, 03:43 PM	#1 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Crime in the Netherlands: A Case for Cannabis Legalization? I don't think it comes as some great shock to people that Amsterdam gains a lot of tourism because of drug policy in the Neatherlands: namely a pragmatic "we can't ban them so let's control them" policy. While it's technically a misdemeanor to possess or use marijuana, Dutch law enforcement doesn't really enforce the statutes. The result? Coffeeshops are flourishing businesses, preventative policies are helping to prevent (who'da thunk it?) the negative effects of harder drugs on society, and here's the kicker: The Dutch justice ministry has announced it will close eight prisons and cut 1,200 jobs in the prison system.. That's right, 8 prisons and 1,200 jobs in the prison system are disappearing overnight because imprisonment in the Netherlands has dropped off considerably since the change in policy. I know the general consensus on TFP is likely in support of legalization of at least marijuana, but there still seem to be many that are in support of the continuing prohibition. Looking at the situation from a purely pragmatic standpoint, what effect could this information have on the American public? Could this be a strong piece of evidence in the case against marijuana prohibition, or will people just shrug it off?

05-24-2009, 08:11 PM	#5 (permalink)
timalkin Addict Location: watching from the treeline	.. __________________ Trinity: "What do you need?" Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns." -The Matrix Last edited by timalkin; 12-20-2010 at 07:09 PM..

05-24-2009, 09:25 PM	#6 (permalink)
Seaver Junkie Location: Fort Worth, TX	One of the issues I wish conservatives would get on board about. Reduce government spending on enforcement, prisons, and reinstatement policies. Keep the drug laws for the hard stuff such as crack/meth/etc, but the lighter stuff such as pot/ex tax it. __________________ "Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

05-25-2009, 06:50 AM	#11 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i think that us drug laws are crazy--but they definitely benefit, and in a major way the entirety of the prison-industrial complex (a name i quite like)...which is after all in addition to it's many other delights a source of cheap labor for major corporations in some cases, and a supplier of cheap goods in others. hooray for capitalism at its finest and most naked. these laws are also a fundamental element in how conservatives have "managed" some of the consequences of the radical transfer of wealth away from anything remotely like a functional distribution. but the rationale for all this operates on other grounds: puritanism; class anxiety; "security"--you know, the right's favorites. so it's no wonder that many conservatives oppose change to this fine system. but i'm pleased to see exceptions, and here from seaver. you can't separate drug laws in holland from the more general social-democratic approach they've adopted. of course it has advantages and disadvantages, but the former outweigh the latter i think. we could have a discussion about this, but it'd push the thread away from the op.... to evaluate the outcomes of dutch drug laws, i don't think it's required that anyone pretend that amsterdam is shangri-la. it's hard to figure out whether a straw man is still a straw man when the man term refers to a city...this will occupy me for a few minutes. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-25-2009, 07:16 AM	#13 (permalink)
FelixP Insane Location: I'm up they see me I'm down.	I support both gay marriage and the legalization of pot, but I think using this study to justify US legalization could be dangerous. There are simply too many variables. Isn't Holland a socialist state? My sister has been there twice, and she described it as being a wonderful place where people are free to be themselves, a place without judgement (unless you're American, then prepare to be judged). I inferred that it was a seedy shithole, but the same things that led me to my opinion led her to think that it was great, so who knows. My point is , America and the Netherlands are such different places in so many ways, who knows how it would actually turn out in the US? Like I said, I support it, I just think we should gather more relevant info. Concerning the prison system, there are FAR more gun crimes (hell, violent crimes period) in the US than in Holland, so we can't really expect the same thing. A lot of people in for pot charges (distribution, manufacturing) are in gangs. I'm not talking about small time users here; smoking pot doesn't make you a criminal. About the coffee shops, the coffee shops that sell pot aren't really coffee shops, that's just what they're called. So go to a REAL coffee shop, and you won't have to deal with it. I'm sure the anti-smoking laws we have in place for tobacco would be applied to pot as well. __________________ Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me "I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

05-24-2009, 03:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Legalizing Marijuana is like Gay Marriage or any other number of progressive issues: they are more likely to happen when the current generation of lawmakers has given way to the younger, more open-minded members of our society.

05-24-2009, 04:10 PM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Meanwhile we incarcerate people that would never hurt a fly and we prevent people in love from marrying. Dogmatic and unsupportable opinion shouldn't be able to win out over truth, even in the short term. I have to be greedy on these issues, I'm not willing to wait for slow, eventual change.

05-24-2009, 04:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	I don't want slow change either, but I understand what we're up against. Makes me want congressional term limits more and more every day

05-25-2009, 05:02 AM	#9 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	I basically agree with this take on it: Drug Legalization? Drugs Should Not Be Legalized - Just Say No to Drug Legalization This is yet another issue the left would prefer to argue in such simplistic terms, such that any dissenting opinion is can only be considered closed-minded because: 1. It creates jobs 2. No More prisons! (I can't wait for the day that eye-sore of a prison is destroyed, and those poor flea loving residents are out enjoying themselves...I wonder what they like to do for fun? Maye i would even make some new friends!) 3. Tourism money (yes, because not only would I like drug users touring my neighborhood, their notorious for having extra money to dump into the economy) 4. Look at Amsterdam!!!! (if you've been there, I'm sure you see the hilarity of this argument) Next step, draw a parallel between this position and.......... : 1. You hate gays....check 2. racist bastard! ...wait for it..... Will, coffee shops are flourishing? arent you concerned about the health of the workers who are just trying to make a living and being forced to subject themselves to the long-term effects of the second hand smoke, but the immediate dangers of working with a contact high? What about me? I just want to enjoy a coffee. Why should I havge to worry about these things.

05-25-2009, 06:35 AM	#10 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	I've been to Amsterdam 10 times. I'd take it over most US cities any day of the week (and I don't do any drugs)

05-25-2009, 07:30 AM	#14 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Maybe if everyone is operating on a calm high there will be less gun crime?

05-25-2009, 09:21 AM	#15 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	"You can go to the myriad shops that don't have weed." "No one is forcing people to work in coffee shops" "About the coffee shops, the coffee shops that sell pot aren't really coffee shops, that's just what they're called. So go to a REAL coffee shop, and you won't have to deal with it." I'm lazy, my wrist is broken, and dont feel like searching for an old smoking ban thread, but this is great...i didn't realize it would be this easy. Will, would you like to revisit the whole smoking ban debate? Pictue this next door to you. "Matthew330's Bar" smoke em if you got em bitch, go to a real bar if you don't like it. That's legal right felix? INteresting, I did not know that.

05-25-2009, 09:43 AM	#16 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I don't support the smoking ban. I don't like that people smoke, I think it's stupid, but it's not my place to force them to stop unless I'm directly impacted by their actions. I'm not.

05-25-2009, 11:05 AM	#17 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	Perhaps Will, this will sound familiar to you: "I've decided to shift my policy on smoking. I support a full ban. If you want to smoke, grow it in your closet and don't get caught." I feel certain I've heard you yourself argue in favor of bans out of a concern for worker health, butI had no success in finding that. HOwever, when it was brought up in this thread: http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...e-right-3.html , I never saw you say "no-one is forcing them to work there) And Derwood, if you like Amsterdam that much, wouldn't it be easier to move yourself there, then move Amsterdam here. Seems a bit selfish. I after all, like it better here. And perhpas this will sound familiar to you: "Smokers need to realize that there are no laws on the books protecting their right to smoke. So, with that said, they have absolutely NO leg to stand on as far as demanding a dry, safe, warm place to smoke". What if its a warm, safe "coffee shop" (but not really)

05-25-2009, 11:12 AM	#18 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	matthew, you're tilting at windmills.

05-25-2009, 11:16 AM	#19 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	yeah, well your tilting at wind......uh.....chimes. Booyah!

05-25-2009, 11:23 AM	#21 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	I agree Will, it's just misguided....your almost there. I'm here to help. Its an under 30, over 30 thing.

05-25-2009, 11:45 AM	#22 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so if i understand such logic as there is behind your position, matthew, what you're saying is that legalization of marijuana would make everyplace amsterdam and you imagine that you wouldn't like everyplace being amsterdam. i don't remember making everyplace into amsterdam being part of any argument for legalizing marijuana, and so am not sure why you imagine that opposing everyplace turning into amsterdam is of much interest, logically or otherwise. or you could just be trolling. in which case, i'd advise you to stop. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-25-2009, 12:16 PM	#23 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	roach darling... I suppose I should have left tilting windmills alone. but it sounds like your problem with my part of this is that I suggested it would be easier for Derwood to move to Amsterdam then moving Amsterdam here. Correct me if I'm wrong, but he did say he would take Amsterdam over most US cities any day of the week This is a thread about marijuana legalization, so I'm taking that in context. He thinks their drug laws, , despite him not doing drugs. have something to do with that fact. I wasn't being dismissive telling him to leave, I was merely suggesting the obvious. Let the man speak for himself if I said something to offend him, but that wasn't my intention, and I never heard him complain. Meanwhile, it's real awkward calling another dude "darling", even when your trying to make a point about what real "trolling" is.

05-25-2009, 12:30 PM	#24 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i don't know what you could possibly mean by that matthew. darling is a term of endearment. you know that. besides, i don't believe i put that in the post above. i just looked and it's not there. i don't mix games. how we can move on now, yes? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-25-2009, 12:35 PM	#25 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	hahahah - it really is too easy. Sure, when you've called conservatives darling here...my bad, I really thought it was a condescending thing. ...and I move on with every post I make. If you can, well me too...

05-25-2009, 12:35 PM	#26 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	You're confusing trolling with flirting. And as romantic a gesture as that is, I think roachboy is taken.

05-25-2009, 12:57 PM	#27 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	you should all take the time to read back through this. Roachboy decided to take his personal time to reflect on whether or not this minuscule point #4 was a strawman 4. Look at Amsterdam!!!! (if you've been there, I'm sure you see the hilarity of this argument) you basically completely stopped talking about something you felt strongly enough to start a thread over that I thought I'd engage you in, and I've been accused of tilting windmills and trolling. I love roach, frankly disappointed in his unavailability because there could be a connection there, but seriously...this is a total fucking joke. Good attempt at derailing the argument into something so pathetic, someone will get warned/banned.....but i don't always fall for that, try again And don't ever accuse me of tilting windmills, the line in the sand has been drawn.

05-25-2009, 01:17 PM	#28 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	the tilting windmills accusation was based on you arguing against Will and myself despite the fact that we haven't actively disagreed with you. You're projecting your opposing viewpoint onto us

05-25-2009, 01:24 PM	#29 (permalink)
matthew330 Banned	okay, thanks for clearing that up. I'd never heard it before and it sounded REALLY bad. I'm glad I didn't go with my initial inclination to hit the "report post" button.

05-25-2009, 01:31 PM	#30 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	it's a Don Quixote reference

05-25-2009, 01:45 PM	#31 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I'm getting a déjà vu.

05-25-2009, 02:11 PM	#32 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	matthew--just to say it, i responded mostly to the tone of your posts above mine. it's not a big deal. if it had been a big deal, i would have at the least put things in yellow and not played around with the amsterdam argument. no need to get in a snit. as for my availability: i am of negociable virtue. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-25-2009, 04:45 PM	#33 (permalink)
2rollinstone Upright Location: Eastern quadrent of land mass called Halifax	stoneage laws Portugal isn't alone. From a pilot program in London that lets marijuana users off with a warning to a law in France that allows police to use discretion on tolerance, Europe has been moving toward a more practical approach to drug use. The Portuguese law, which took effect July 1, 2001 eliminates the threat of prison for possession of small amounts of any drug. Critics have charged that it opens Portugal to the threat of drug tourism, meaning addicts or casual users lured here by the promise of using drugs without risking jail. Backers of the measure call that view a mistake, because drugs remain illegal, with their use punishable by fines or community service--just not prison time. And being caught with even one joint could send you to the anti-addiction commission, supporters point out. "We're trying a sort of third way between the hard approach you have in the United States and the soft approach some countries have, like Holland," said Vitalino Canas, Portugal's drug policy czar. "We are not allowing any legal use of drugs. It's not the same as in Holland."

05-25-2009, 04:49 PM	#34 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Welcome to the forum, 2rollinstone. It sounds like governments are really worried about the PR of decriminalization, and I don't blame them. The anti-drug folks have been controlling the conversation for two generations. When you look at the sheer numbers of prisoners in the US vs. the Netherlands, I dunno, doesn't the policy sell itself? I don't like getting taxed for a massive prison system has a lot of people that just like to smoke weed.