Conservative Shock Jock: Waterboarding is torture - Page 4 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

JumpinJesus · 05-25-2009, 08:52 PM

What are you talking about?

Martian · 05-25-2009, 10:21 PM

At first I was surprised that we're still having this conversation. And then, upon reading it, I became surprised at how far out it's gotten.

JumpinJesus: I honestly don't know what's going through your head here. I see what you're getting at, I just don't understand why it's so bloody important to you. The merits of any personal claim made on an internet forum are dubious at best, and are not worth such tenacity.

I expected better from you. Let it go.

Willravel: Your personal claims regarding waterboarding don't strike me as particularly relevant when discussing said action as US policy. This is not your usual level of posting, either; even if we take as granted that your personal experience in the matter is relevant and actually carries weight in this discussion (which I'm not personally convinced it does), we have much more powerful testimony available in the accompanying video.

Before anyone says it, no I'm not a staff member here. At the same time, this is not the type of discussion I expect to encounter here. I would dearly like to see this topic move back into the realm of civility; as it is, I'm a bit embarrassed by the whole affair. The community that I identify with and that I consider to be one of the most mature and respectful communities in the online realm has degenerated into nothing more than mudslinging and name calling.

Seriously, people. This is grade school shit. Let's move on.

Willravel · 05-25-2009, 10:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martian

Willravel: Your personal claims regarding waterboarding don't strike me as particularly relevant when discussing said action as US policy. This is not your usual level of posting, either; even if we take as granted that your personal experience in the matter is relevant and actually carries weight in this discussion (which I'm not personally convinced it does), we have much more powerful testimony available in the accompanying video.

This is totally fair. And you're right that my personal experience doesn't really have any bearing on the discussion at hand. Citing the video seems just fine in order to demonstrate the severity of the process. This case can be argued using available and verifiable evidence, and I will do so.

Thanks for the objectivity.

ratbastid · 05-26-2009, 03:10 AM

Thank you, Martian. Much better said than I could have mustered. Or did muster.

The_Jazz · 05-26-2009, 08:21 AM

This thread is off the rails and has turned personal. Thank you to all who have tried to get it back on track. Despite a note in Post #37 (http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/2639738-post37.html) to stop the name calling, it has continued. It will now stop. This thread has already been closed once and will be permanently if folks fail to live up to community standards. If anyone has any questions about EXACTLY what those are, feel free to contact me or any other staff member.

From here on out, the discussion will no longer involve any personal questions or comments. Failure to heed that warning will result in permanent action.

ASU2003 · 05-26-2009, 03:20 PM

Torture was so last week.

Now, if Rush, Cheney, and Glenn Beck will see how long they will be able to last before giving up their bank account number (and will be penalized more for giving fake info). We'll see if they still think it is torture after that.

Derwood · 05-29-2009, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Derwood

I'm surprised he actually admitted it was torture, since Mancow has more or less been lying about everything on his show for the past 15 years

Oh look, I was right....

Gawker - Mancow's 'Waterboarding' Was Completely Fake - mancow

Tully Mars · 05-29-2009, 07:45 PM

I'm gonna go with you're being sarcastic, right? Because otherwise... well, seriously? If not you're quoting "Gwaker" as a source for something. The next thing you know you'll be listening to Limbaugh and hearing rational thoughts.

JumpinJesus · 05-29-2009, 07:46 PM

That was already debunked Derwood. You see, since waterboarding is illegal, he was threatened with arrest for going through with it - even though it was consensual. In order to avoid the Chicago police from preventing the event from taking place, they passed it off as a hoax, or a radio stunt in their promotion of the event.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mancow

We kept telling management, the insurance companies, and the local Chicago cops we weren’t really going to do it until we did. Otherwise, they weren’t gonna let us do it! We got a U.S. Marine that told us he had studied how to do it and he volunteered to waterboard me in return for a mention of his charity.

Seems that even if it's consensual, it's still illegal.

It also seems that it wasn't a hoax.

The whole story, with video from Keith Olbermann, can be found here.

Tully Mars · 05-29-2009, 07:55 PM

From the article-

Quote:

The right wingers are upset because I said it was torture and they somehow want to discredit me. The left is upset because I'm saying I'm not sure I even care. I didn't make any friends doing this. But the idea that it's fake really [ticks] me off."

Sounds about right. I told the truth, now everyone hates me.

Willravel · 05-29-2009, 08:28 PM

It's interesting that Mancow is having to deal with this from the other direction now. He's appeared several times on Countdown (partially because Olbermann/MSNBC donated to a good cause), and is earning a lot of respect from people on the left for being honest, but he's having to deal with what I would assume are people that used to listen to him religiously. That must be very surreal for him. Do you think that they honestly don't trust him after listening to him for so long, or is it feigned disbelief in order to sustain a state of cognitive dissonance? If it's the latter, how long can that dissonance really last? Will my liberal children's children be having this same debate?

spectre · 05-29-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

It's interesting that Mancow is having to deal with this from the other direction now. He's appeared several times on Countdown (partially because Olbermann/MSNBC donated to a good cause), and is earning a lot of respect from people on the left for being honest, but he's having to deal with what I would assume are people that used to listen to him religiously. That must be very surreal for him. Do you think that they honestly don't trust him after listening to him for so long, or is it feigned disbelief in order to sustain a state of cognitive dissonance? If it's the latter, how long can that dissonance really last? Will my liberal children's children be having this same debate?

Surprisingly not. On his original appearance on Olbermann last week, he said that his listeners respected that he was honest to them about it. Despite all of the hardcore beliefs of his fans, they stuck by him overall.

Willravel · 05-29-2009, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spectre

Surprisingly not. On his original appearance on Olbermann last week, he said that his listeners respected that he was honest to them about it. Despite all of the hardcore beliefs of his fans, they stuck by him overall.

I'm pleasantly surprised. I respect those listeners a great deal for being mature and honest enough to stick to the facts. It's not always an easy thing to do, especially when you have your ego invested in something the way many torture supporters do.

Martian · 05-29-2009, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

I'm pleasantly surprised. I respect those listeners a great deal for being mature and honest enough to stick to the facts. It's not always an easy thing to do, especially when you have your ego invested in something the way many torture supporters do.

And therein lies the sole aspect of this whole thing that still retains a glimmer of interest to me.

This is such a testosterone-laden discussion. Waterboarding isn't torture, it's just a splash on the face, and all those sissy trrists can't handle a taste of their own medicine. I was interested to see how this paradigm as I perceive it would react to Mancow's reversal on the subject, and what implications this might have for the overarching discussion.

I don't see many people denying that waterboarding is torture, now. They may be out there; there's too many filters in my way when it comes to American political debates for me to be 100% up to speed all the time, but it seems from what I do see that the vocal proponents of the practice have all but disappeared. Whether this is a direct consequence of the actions of Mr. Cow, or simply the result of a larger trend, I'm not certain. I suspect the latter, but really can offer no authority here.

This little drama seems played out to me. Some pundit thought he was relevant, and for a brief instant maybe he even was. Time to move on to important stuff now.

Willravel · 05-29-2009, 10:03 PM

I think the last battle on this issue lies with ex-VP Cheney. If we can get him to shut up or someone to utterly shut him down completely during an interview, the last real bastion for pro-torture will have been lost. We can finally move on to things that deserve learned and honest debate.

Derwood · 05-30-2009, 05:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I'm gonna go with you're being sarcastic, right? Because otherwise... well, seriously? If not you're quoting "Gwaker" as a source for something. The next thing you know you'll be listening to Limbaugh and hearing rational thoughts.

Sorry, I only skimmed the article. Now I feel dumb

spectre · 05-30-2009, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JumpinJesus

That was already debunked Derwood. You see, since waterboarding is illegal, he was threatened with arrest for going through with it - even though it was consensual. In order to avoid the Chicago police from preventing the event from taking place, they passed it off as a hoax, or a radio stunt in their promotion of the event.

Here's the video of interview where Mancow answers the hoax allegations:

I give him a lot of respect for his honesty on all of this.

05-25-2009, 08:52 PM	#121 (permalink)
JumpinJesus Junkie Location: Chicago	What are you talking about? __________________ "I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

05-25-2009, 10:21 PM	#122 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	At first I was surprised that we're still having this conversation. And then, upon reading it, I became surprised at how far out it's gotten. JumpinJesus: I honestly don't know what's going through your head here. I see what you're getting at, I just don't understand why it's so bloody important to you. The merits of any personal claim made on an internet forum are dubious at best, and are not worth such tenacity. I expected better from you. Let it go. Willravel: Your personal claims regarding waterboarding don't strike me as particularly relevant when discussing said action as US policy. This is not your usual level of posting, either; even if we take as granted that your personal experience in the matter is relevant and actually carries weight in this discussion (which I'm not personally convinced it does), we have much more powerful testimony available in the accompanying video. Before anyone says it, no I'm not a staff member here. At the same time, this is not the type of discussion I expect to encounter here. I would dearly like to see this topic move back into the realm of civility; as it is, I'm a bit embarrassed by the whole affair. The community that I identify with and that I consider to be one of the most mature and respectful communities in the online realm has degenerated into nothing more than mudslinging and name calling. Seriously, people. This is grade school shit. Let's move on. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

05-26-2009, 08:21 AM	#125 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	This thread is off the rails and has turned personal. Thank you to all who have tried to get it back on track. Despite a note in Post #37 (http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/2639738-post37.html) to stop the name calling, it has continued. It will now stop. This thread has already been closed once and will be permanently if folks fail to live up to community standards. If anyone has any questions about EXACTLY what those are, feel free to contact me or any other staff member. From here on out, the discussion will no longer involve any personal questions or comments. Failure to heed that warning will result in permanent action. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-29-2009, 07:45 PM	#128 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	I'm gonna go with you're being sarcastic, right? Because otherwise... well, seriously? If not you're quoting "Gwaker" as a source for something. The next thing you know you'll be listening to Limbaugh and hearing rational thoughts. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

05-26-2009, 03:10 AM	#124 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Thank you, Martian. Much better said than I could have mustered. Or did muster.

05-26-2009, 03:20 PM	#126 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	Torture was so last week. Now, if Rush, Cheney, and Glenn Beck will see how long they will be able to last before giving up their bank account number (and will be penalized more for giving fake info). We'll see if they still think it is torture after that.

05-29-2009, 08:28 PM	#131 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	It's interesting that Mancow is having to deal with this from the other direction now. He's appeared several times on Countdown (partially because Olbermann/MSNBC donated to a good cause), and is earning a lot of respect from people on the left for being honest, but he's having to deal with what I would assume are people that used to listen to him religiously. That must be very surreal for him. Do you think that they honestly don't trust him after listening to him for so long, or is it feigned disbelief in order to sustain a state of cognitive dissonance? If it's the latter, how long can that dissonance really last? Will my liberal children's children be having this same debate?

05-29-2009, 10:03 PM	#135 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I think the last battle on this issue lies with ex-VP Cheney. If we can get him to shut up or someone to utterly shut him down completely during an interview, the last real bastion for pro-torture will have been lost. We can finally move on to things that deserve learned and honest debate.