Shauk

Honestly, I don't really see the big deal. The photos leaked anyway.

I understand, and am a proponent for freedom of information, but I also understand the implications behind such information as this, amongst other examples, that ultimately create a detrimental path for evolution of history.

Ignorance is bliss, sure, but yes, it's also just that... ignorance.

Admittedly this scenario leaves me somewhat conflicted on my own views.
Maybe I'm just jaded but the proof is in our history, this nation spent 8 years throwing the blame of war crimes and draconian policies at Bush hoping that something would incite the people to rise up, but I've lost my faith in politics "for the people" or a government "for the people, by the people" cuz it's all a big pile of bull. 8 years of protesting, petitions, exposes, documentaries, showing much worse guild than this action by Obama and nothing came of it, he served out his term, he goes back to Texas, unaccountable for the mess he left America in.

No mistake to be made here, no nitpicking in the grey area, I don't think you'll find anyone who can honestly say that Bush implemented policies that left the USA economically stronger than ever. One such as myself has felt the impact directly as I got laid off and am searching for work in an economy where the businesses are wondering if they can even afford to pay their employees a fair living wage.

So we get back to the subject of the disclosure of these photos, and I'm left going "you know what? I don't really give a f*ck"

Everything in the media is political hyperbole and the people are powerless to overturn presidential orders, powerless to demand accountability.

Though not to confuse you, my blase attitude isn't the result of feeling defeated by 8 years of Bush. It's more over the fact that I feel releasing the photos through an "official" channel such as the white house really does nothing for our country.

Scenario: Pictures are released
Result: Moral Outrage by the citizens of the US
Secondary Result: Everything stays the same.
Feared result by Obama: Moral Outrage by citizens NOT of the US, and retaliatory actions against the lives of Americans domestic or abroad.

So to me, it's moot. Released or not, nothing changed other than people have their sense of entitlement, more fuel for their vehicle of moral outrage, more reasons to hate the previous administration which this happened under. *shrug*

scout

I would say sir that both parties are the bad guy here. One {republicans} may shoulder a bit more of the blame but the Democrats are being more and more implicated in this mess on an almost daily basis. I think it's really bizarre that when implications of the Democratic Party leadership come to light the administration that ran on a "change" and "transparent government" platform suddenly change their tune and look more and more like the Bush administration of old.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

ratbastid

It's hard to get the tone of a comment on the internets, and this comment could be heard as trying to argue with what I said. I don't know how to make it clearer: I agree pretty much completely with you here. What I'm saying is, there's a disingenuous attempt going on from certain elements of the right to put it all on Pelosi's shoulders, which I find insulting and absurd.

I think the person who ordered the torture is more culpable than the person who stood by and let it happen. But only slightly. This thing reveals failure all the way up and down the spectrum of political leadership AND the military chain of command. And I am disturbed by the lack of change from the administration on this and other military-related issues.

spectre

And I've already given my reasons, which apparently aren't enough either.

So showing any of the abuses at all is discounting the victims entirely? Do you honestly believe anyone would give a crap about any of this if the original photos had ever come out? This would have story buried deep in the paper and would have gotten a brief nod in the media overall if the photos didn't show what really happened. Do you know that the photos don't show worse behavior? Do you think it's worth pretending that we've done enough so we can pat ourselves on the back now? How does that help the victims? Inaction is not action.

You say you don't want to keep them hidden, you just don't want the public to able to see them. Can you please explain the difference?

So, if someone is assaulted, or hit by a drunk driver, the best way for the victims to heal is for the evidence to be locked away?

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Cynthetiq

No, I don't know if it shows worse behavior, those that have seen them indicate that it's not worse that what has already been released. If the point is prosecution, then prosecute. If there is not going to be be any prosecution, then what is the point of releasing them to the general public? But so far the idea here is to use the photos as a political football to dress down the previous administration and the people that worked within it.


Yes, AVAILABLE to the prosecutors is not the same thing as printed in ever newspaper and shown on every 11pm news. We didn't get to see the photos for OJ Simpson's trial nor do we see them for all the murder and homicides.

I've not ever said make the evidence unavailable for prosecution. Both you and willravel need to learn to read what I've written and not what you want it to say.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ratbastid

So that America can deal with what it has become. Will releasing new photos have that happen? I don't know. I know that withholding them won't have it happen.

Cynthetiq

so you have more photos released, America is doing your so called introspection and "dealing with what it has become" and it's finished... a year from now more photos are discovered... need to release those too?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ratbastid

Not necessarily. Maybe in a year we won't need the dose of reality that we do right now.

By the way, you should know as well as anybody there's no such thing as "dealing with what you have become and it's finished".

Cynthetiq

Yes, it's a vigilant thing, but no, my point is in furthering the discussion that if I'm to understand your point of view you've got to reach a bit to understand mine.

The idea is that once the process is done and completed, you don't dwell on the shittiness of it to continue to stew within in. There is a point of moving forward and onward.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Apply that same logic to any other crime and your position will change. If someone attacked you and beat you, you'd likely report this incident to the police and expect them to arrest the man, charge him, and see him tried for assault. Someone telling you that it's over and done with, and not to dwell on it would be wrong to do so.

Cynthetiq

actually no.. it's not.

There's a point in time where you have to move on with your life as it's MORE detrimental to continue to dwell on it.

It is why the Italians and Jews have finite periods of mourning. Because at some point you're DONE.

But again, so that we can cut to the chase. You win. You're right.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

That may be true, but that point in time is not yours to determine. Perhaps you'll remember the name Javaid Iqbal. Javaid Iqbal is a Pakastani Muslim arrested after 9/11 on trumped up charges and beaten severely. In 2001. After he was released, he filed a lawsuit to try and bring the guilty parties to justice. He fought in court for 8 years until his case finally reached the Supreme Court, where he lost 4-5. Would you look this man in the face and tell him that he's wrong to seek justice?
They mourn as a part of the process of closure. Believe me when I say that if you've been victimized, it's easier to get closure if the perpetrator has been brought to justice.

ratbastid

I'm saying:

Would you say America is at peace with itself about this thing? I wouldn't. I'd say it's still skulking in the basement waiting to eat us.

Cynthetiq

But when you're continued to be victimized because the guy next to you who didn't have anything happen to him but the cry for injustice or whatver hair he has up his ass.... well there's no closure there either.

You know.. he didn't need to still be in touch with is mother, brothers or in laws... because he got justice and now can heal, never mind he doesn't want to be with his family!

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

I get that Saddam Saleh al-Radi is uncomfortable with the photos being released, I sympathize, but as I said and you ignored, we can blur faces. We can blur faces. We can release all of these photographs to the public while simultaneously protecting the identity of those victimized.

Do you think this person would have trouble with people recognizing him?

Cynthetiq

Oh right will you're right again.

He said he was recognized in the photo... I didn't see that published anywhere in the article he's quoted in, he said that once the photos were released his family ASKED him about it...

but I'm sure you knew about it... cuz you're absolutely right again!!! it's amazing you're like Kreskin!

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

They were aware their family member was tortured, but decided to leave it alone. They didn't really understand what happened to him. As soon as the photographs came out, though, they were able to see with their own eyes just how bad it was and they were overcome to the point where they broke their silence. Expand that to the general population. If this can change silence to proactive engagement in the family of one of the victims, why is it so unreasonable that it can change the silence of your average American to proactively seeking justice?

Anyway, Saddam Saleh al-Radi has already been tortured. He didn't start being a victim when photos were released, he started being a victim when he was kidnapped and tortured. What about the next Saddam Saleh al-Radi? If we don't bring these people to justice, it will set precedent that we can torture in the future and the next Bush administration will eventually lead us down this same road again. There will be more Saddam Saleh al-Radis unless we prosecute.

Cynthetiq

as I've said before there will be more Saddamn Saleh even if you've prosecuted. It's not a slam dunk to think that because you prosecuted that you're stopping torture from happening in the future. People were prosecuted for war crimes in Vietnam but hey some of those same things happened in the Gulf War!!! and Iraq War!!!! OMFG! What happened????

but you're willravel, you're right... you know more about how they were "overcome" that's awesome... you should be a preacher or something since you know and can interpret the words that were on the only article that has his name. You should be able to interpret how Bible means too.

you're rigth willravel. absolutely right.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ratbastid

This conversation has gone downhill.

Cynthetiq

Well, I don't know about you but it seems that I'm in a discussion with someone who can see words that aren't in the article posted nor any other article or source.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

spectre

You were on the train and then derailed. The point is to make sure that there is prosecution if it's warranted. This is all a political game right now, it's not about right and wrong. That's what releasing the photos will do, create the public outcry necessary to bring this back to what this is about, that what was done was wrong, plain and simple.


You don't read many tabloids, otherwise you would've seen Nicole's head barely still attached. The photos were never officially released and there already was an outcry for justice, but they certainly fueled more pressure being put on the part of the prosecution.

Technically, you weren't very clear either way, just saying to not show them, so I'll give you that one.


I'd want the above quote to say something that isn't a troll.

So that means we're allowed to openly mock people who we feel aren't understanding what we're saying? When was this rule change put in place? Is this a staff only thing or site wide? If you disagree with anything I've said above, am I free to mock you as well?

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Cynthetiq

I'm saying it with the utmost respect and sincerity because it's what he wants me to say. that he's right.

if you think it's a troll... feel free to press the REPORT post button.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

spectre

You're right, that is the correct way to handle it. Thank you.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

The_Jazz

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Willravel

Anyway, it seems Obama is facing a split in his support on this issue. A lot of his core supporters are for releasing the photos, and a lot are against it. I find it interesting that this same split is mirrored in his own behavior, referencing the seeming flip flop.

I hate to characterize the issue in terms of locations on a theoretical political scale as it should be circling around issues like justice and closure, but judging by who is saying what on the issue, the more liberal you are the more likely you are to want the photos released. I doubt very much that it's a coincidence. Liberals—honest to goodness leftists—have been screaming over the past 8 years for our day in the sun, and now that we have more Democrats than we know what to do with, we (the liberal liberals) were kinda hoping it was time to bring justice to the guilty. Now, though, we're seeing that Obama can't for some reason be quite as optimistic and progressive as he was on the campaign trail. I understand that to a point, some of the promises he made will take a lot of time and a lot of work, but if these photographs aren't released soon, we may lose our window to get the public behind the idea of prosecutions.

Back when Clinton was in power, it always seemed like he was in turmoil between his true liberal feelings on the one side and his moderate feelings stemming from classic Democrat low self-assuredness on the other. I was only 10 when he was elected, so I wasn't really paying much attention, but by my understanding Clinton started out relatively liberal and then slowly slid right, especially after the sex scandal and Republican domination of congress. I don't want to see that happen again, because I'm worried we'll just end up going in circles between a far-right conservative the causes a mess and a gradually less liberal Democrat that has to clean it up. We'll never get anything done.

Derwood

Apparently the photos contain graphic depictions of torture and rape...

Report: Iraq abuse photos depict torture, rape - White House- msnbc.com

Willravel

So I guess we haven't seen the worst of them yet.

dippin

If the new pictures not being released are so much worse than what we've seen before, I can't even imagine how bad it will be. Because rape and so on were already depicted in the earlier pictures released:

Warning: 2 graphic pictures

at-Largely: Photos Obama won't release include images of rape...(warning, graphic)

at-Largely: Something I missed

Apparently, some of the photos not released include the rape of an Iraqi teenager.