Cynthetiq

I don't believe that 5, 10, 20, 100, 1000, 10,000 photos make a difference. If the evidence is there the evidence is there. If the Administration or Congress doesn't care to bother, they don't care to bother.

no, I don't remember the outrage over his sexual impropriety, I remember him LYING under oath. I didn't give a shit that some girl sucked his cock in the oval office, I was upset that he commited perjury.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

5, 10, 20 photos can be "explained" as overly aggressive acts on the part of a few lower level personnel w/o authorization.

1,000 or 2,000 photos would suggest a more wide spread pattern of practices that would be hard to "explain" other than to believe those actions were sanctioned.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I didn't say you were outraged, Cynth. I said there was outrage, and there was. It's why he was giving testimony about a sexual affair in the first place. Yeesh.

powerclown

War criminal?

roachboy

this is funny stuff.
for all the years of blah blah blah personal responsibility this personal responsibility that, these days conservatives just can't stop themselves from trying at all costs to evade it. but this torture business--the legal arguments for it, the formulation of policy, it's questionable implementation, that it was kept partially secret from congress---all of it is squarely on the right's shoulders.

it'd be nice for these heroes of personal responsibility blah blah blah to suck it up for once and deal with the self-evident.

but they just can't do it.
goes to show that "personal responsibility" mainly applies to other people, not to conservatives themselves.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ratbastid

No, it was mine that you discounted.

It's not surprising that so few Americans are interested in confronting the moral implications of this thing. This isn't a sociological or logistical or practical phenomenon. This is a moral question. One can dodge that, but only at the price of one's one morality.

spectre

The government has all of the power, and the government of and by the people needs transparency to serve those people. If they don't make a difference, then what's the harm in releasing them? The terrorists want to kill us no matter how many photos they have. Assuming they're sitting around and these photos are what gets them to decide to attack them is just silly. Keeping these photos secret doesn't heal the country as the outcry will continue. Ignoring problems doesn't make them go away. The only way to move past this is to act like adults. Owning up to the wrong doing is the only way to move forward.

I agree, that is exactly why it was a problem. Even though it was something that seemed small and harmless, it was a person charged with faithfully executing federal law breaking that law.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Cynthetiq

Again, I'll ask, what's the benefit in releasing them to the general public? Being released to allow for prosecution, I'm down with, but what is the benefit to the public at large?

Murder and rape victims get privacy and compassion from the media and the world at large, why not someone who's also been tortured? When do they get to heal?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Ah, so trying to bring the torturers to justice prevents the tortured from healing? What about the closure that comes from justice? Have you ever been tortured?

spectre

This isn't about privacy and compassion, it's about sweeping the problem under the rug. The photos can be released while retaining the privacy of those in the pics. The benefit to the public at large is letting them know that their government takes responsibility for their bad actions. It doesn't just lie to the people and pretend that everything is okay when everyone knows better. This is the sort of stuff that keeps people from trusting or believing in the government.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Cynthetiq

no and that's a dumb if not stupid question.

The quote specifically says someone who is tortured is no longer associating with family members out of embarassment. Great healing there.

I've not stated anything about sweeping a problem under the rug. I've not advocated for the non pursuit of offenders. I've asked simply "how does MORE photos make it better?" I've gotten a decent answer from dc but releasing it to public at large, how does it help?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

JumpinJesus

I say release the photos so former President Bush can use them as exhibits in his presidential library. This is, after all, going to be one of his greatest legacies.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

roachboy

fact is that while there is a fairly compact chain of bush administration appointees who were directly responsible for this policy and its rationale, the entire political class caved in before the arguments that the bush administration put forward in favor of these actions. i think it is an ethical lapse of very considerable proportions and a political problem of even greater proportions. i see no way to address it apart from transparency to the greatest possible extent: release of the photos is an aspect of that transparency. the problem really with the release is not what the right says, but that the magnitude of the capitulation of the political class of the time to this bush administration policy becomes more and more obvious. but i think this a serious enough problem that the political class SHOULD feel the heat from it and should be forced to deal with it. sweeping it under the rug is not dealing with it. an ancillary fact is that the right will pay for this more than the democrats--but that too is as it should be.

it is because bureaucracies are such basically stupid organizations that it is all the more incumbent on the people who fashion--and approve---policy to not allow themselves to loose track of ethics not loose sight of fundamental human rights and the rule of law.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

matthew330

i agree with roachboy that this is very funny stuff.

that this poor, sad 9 year psychotic effort to prosecute President Bush or someone in his administration for something...anything, which started with hanging chads, and ended with 183, counting the drips, instances of torture (but not the fingernail/bamboo kind) on one poor soul in 30 days .....


that in the face of your own elected President (NOT MY PRESIDENT!!) blocking an effort to release interogation photos without context or even what was gained from them....that you still attempt to convice people that this is an issue of most americans being afraid of the "moral implications" of the matter is astounding.

that you now believe this is an issue of the right shying away from personal responsibility in the face of the current administration practically retiring the phrase "we inherited it" from the english language within 100 days of office

that Nancy Pelosi has convinced you things were partially kept from her....

The denial of your own motivations are in themselves mind bottling, but the pedestal you put yourselves on to take this position in an attempt to fool the populace is even more so.

roachboy

matthew--i've read your post 3 times and really have no idea what you're talking about.

you apparently feel the need to trivialize this behind a smoke-screen of conservative talking points. i suppose that's your prerogative, but the idea that you agree in any way with anything i've said here (or elsewhere) about the question of torture and the bush administration is absurd.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynthetiq

I think he only agrees with you that it's funny.

this seems more interesting to me for some reason, since we're now all in for the long haul... if you go by the law, you go by the law....

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

JumpinJesus

I'll agree with you with regards to Nancy Pelosi. For her to pretend that she is the poor hapless victim of Republican shenanigans is laughable. When the fallout of this political shit sandwich hits the ground, I want her to be one of the ones at ground zero. I detest any Democrat who sold out his or her ethics in 2002-2006 due to fear of being branded anti-American or simply for the purpose of political expediency. They're all doing their worst Claude Raines impressions and I hope they get the hook for their lousy acting.

Now, as an aside: please please please - it's "mind boggling", not "mind bottling". Language matters. It really really does.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

matthew330

"but the idea that you agree in any way with anything i've said here (or elsewhere) about the question of torture and the bush administration is absurd"

if you read it 3 times in an honest effort to get, I would have at least thought you could've picked up on the fact that I only agree with you that this is funny, just for different reasons.

And Jumpin Jesus - I was laughing while I typed mind bottling, hoping it would draw some of the other more excitable members out. You blew it for me, you could have at least given it a chance to work its magic.

JumpinJesus

Shit. Sorry about that.

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

matthew330

No sweat, I'll make more opportunities, stay tuned...

spectre

Yes, that has already happened as you have just stated. They were tortured. This gives them a chance to have their stories told and for something to actually be done with it. Without the outrage, nothing will happen, it will be ignored, and will likely happen again.
The government has a bad habit of breaking the law or breaching ethical conduct regularly if people don't stand up against that behavior. They have breached it on a massive scale and what was done needs to be seen. This isn't for sick sense of voyeurism, it's to document fully what was done. It's too easy to go back and change the facts down the road. It's much more difficult with overwhelming amounts of proof.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Willravel

You lack the credibility to make such a determination.
It's too bad we don't have some sort of computer program that has the ability to blur faces. If such a technology existed, we could demonstrate publicly evidence of torture without revealing the identity of the victims and further victimizing them. C'est la vi.

And don't worry, I'd never dream of suggesting that anything you've posted is dumb or stupid. That would be disrespectful and uncalled for.

scout

What's really fucking sad is the "left" is so hell bent on destroying the "right" they didn't fucking care how much damage they done until it was found out some of their very own was implicated and suddenly they are doing a complete 180 to minimize that damage. It's the same old story same old song and dance it's just being sung and danced to by a different party.

Ladies and Gentlemen there is no hope for the Republic, we are so fucked no matter which party is in charge.

Hell almost all of Obama's promises of change suddenly went by the wayside after he got in office. Either life at the top is a bit different than he surmised, the reality of the massive responsibility of being president began sinking in or he just fucking flat out lied to get elected. No matter what the excuse is we the people are so fucked.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

roachboy

so wait---the bush administration instituted a policy of torture and now it's out and as a result of THAT you claim that "the republic is fucked"?
so it follows then that had the policy of torture NOT been made public that the republic would not be fucked?
if thats the case, then what makes a healthy republic is the ability to torture in secret.
what kind of logic is that?

so attempts to deal with the consequences of torture, once public, has to come from "enemies of america"?
this because, of course, the right is america.

wow.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Cynthetiq

Actually, it will happen again, with or without the stories or judicial review. This is more true than your statement of "If we do this, it will never happen again."

Why? Because human beings are sick and twisted stupid motherfuckers who seem to think that this case here, this time, special case, this version, this occasion is different from the rest and they think they can get away with it.

You'd think that there's going to be no corrupt politicians, there's laws that prohibit it, there's checks and balances, there's others getting caught and prosecuted. But still, the fucked up human being thinks, "Hey, this time, I have the in, I do it this way, I call it this...." and suddenly it's rationalized and they go ahead with the action.

And the American public is shocked and outraged... shocked and outraged that some American politician shouldn't have been corrupt in the first place. Hello... politicians have been corrupt since the dawn of organized politics.

There are already people on camera, there's enough evidence showing that this happened, all that is left is the paper trail to the who and how high it went up to. Are you expecting to see Rice or Rumsfeld in the photos? Are you expecting to see some 5 star Generals?

So again, what purpose does releasing more photos serve?

There is already someone on camera in the documentary Torturing Democracy:
Read through the transcript, watch the show. If these individuals wish to be part of the prosecution and tribunal they can come forward when the time comes.

Again, how does more photos change what information is already out there and available?

When I heard "enhanced interrogation techniques" it was already apparent to me that there was something fishy about the whole thing. We have plenty of words, words that have specific meaning and purpose, but as Mr. Carlin points out, we don't like them. We like to feel special, we like to make it softer, more palatable to the cranium.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Willravel

Every "leftist" in this thread seems to believe that torture was and is wrong regardless of who's in the white house. Or do you mean politicians? Because there aren't many politicians on the left in the US, just centrists.

A lot of people I know voted for Obama to vote against McCain. What do you think McCain would be doing right now?

Baraka_Guru

Will, I take it "left" was meant as its colliquial meaning in the U.S., which is "liberal" or "Democrat." Most of us know that there are very few actual "leftists" with any power in the U.S. The furthest left the Democrats go are left-centre. This leaning happens as some members are more focused on social liberalism than others.

That said, it's a common trait of social liberals (and even classical liberals, from which the Republicans arose a long, long time ago) to be concerned about issues of human rights, civil liberties, etc., and have worked long and hard to create new rights regarding capital punishment, abortion, immigration, and same-sex marriage. They support a positive sense of liberty, which is why liberals (not just the left kind) are rather opposed to the idea of torture and it being trivialized by cases such as these.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

I wish the right wingers had some hard left leaders to deal with instead of centrist softies.

dc_dux

I'm probably a bit more hawkish on national security issues than you, roachboy and others...but I consider myself a pragmatic progressive and not a centrist softie.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

I'd say the only thing standing between you and real leftism is your devotion to the Democratic party.

spectre

Yes, they are. Does that make it okay then? Do we get to go out and punch old ladies in the face because, as a whole, human beings are dicks?

Who said anything about totally ending corruption or torture never happening again? That's a ridiculous leap to take from what I said. Can you please tell me where I said that by publishing these photos, we would never have another corrupt politician again or that it would mean the absolute end of torture throughout the future of mankind? If I'm wrong, let me know, but I think you're just taking what I said out of context and pointfucking it so that you can make your point by distorting mine.

You're right, politicians are corrupt, so by your logic, we just let it go and be complicit in enabling their corruption because they're corrupt anyway?

Why put a thief in jail if they'll just go out and steal again, right? Just save the taxpayers a lot of money and send him on his way?

When someone has power and chooses to abuse it, they should be called on it. The people should know the person they've elected is corrupt so something can be done. As a resident of Illinois, I'm glad Blagojevich was called out on being corrupt. I wouldn't want that douchebag having power just because corruption has been around for a long time so that makes it okay.

So how many released photos are enough? Are there guidelines to this that I'm not aware of? I didn't realize that we reached a photo quota.

So you keep asking this question to me and continually brush my answers without answering yourself, I have to ask, what purpose does hiding the photos serve? If releasing them must have a purpose, then hiding them has to as well, right?

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

ottopilot

Agreed, I think they should show all the pictures ...

... ONLY if they show them along with the pictures of every innocent terrified soul that jumped to their horrifying deaths from the rooftops and windows of the World Trade Towers. Showing frame-by-frame their entire descent through space, some holding hands with other jumpers for comfort, the mid-air prayers and complete hysteria as they plummit to a sidewalk-splat, many landing on and killing 1st-responders and innocent victims below.

Show them ONLY if they show them alongside the images of people like Daniel Pearle having their heads sawed off.

Just trying to get it all out there. Context, perspective, intellectual honesty.

Allah Akbar!

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dippin

So in the name of "intellectual honesty" you think that the pictures of torture in an Iraqi prison should be released alongside and linked to the pictures of the dead in the 9/11 attacks and in Pakistan?

roachboy

otto: i doubt you'd know intellectual honesty if it it spit in your face. what your "context" thing is about is repeating the framing of torture used by the bush administration, and amounts to what the bush administration argument really was: that it is ok for the united states to itself become the kind of organization that it supposedly opposes on "moral"grounds--you know, those tiresome fictions that appeal to conservatives, that nationalist circle jerk that makes conservatives come alive. so not only does your position throw ethics out the window, but it also makes the rule of law optional---even as the nationalist circle-jerk enables folk like you imagine themselves to be above all that.

i think that's funny.
you seem attuned to jokes, otto: don't you think that's funny?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

scout

I agree that any torture was wrong and it should have never happened. It just seems so much like business as usual {where's the change?} when it's "leaked" that Pelosi and other's in the Democratic Party leadership knew and one could even argue condoned the torture {by doing nothing} suddenly nothing will be gained by releasing the photos.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

ratbastid

I punch you in the face. You stand there and take it. Suddenly it's your fault?

scout

oooooooooooooooookkkkkkkkkkkk where the hell are you coming from?

You don't see any conflicts with administration first stating they are releasing the photos then doing a 180 when it becomes public the democratic leadership knew in '03 or '04 {whenever the heck it was, my memory fails me momentarily} ? You see this as "change" from politics as usual?

Granted the fact the administration has publicly shied away from any future torture but in reality that is but a small change from politics as usual. Huge for the people on the receiving end of the torture but in the big picture it's but a small sliver of the whole pie.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

ratbastid

I'm saying it's bizarre that the right is now saying, "Pelosi is the bad guy here--she KNEW what our people were doing, and didn't do anything about it!" That's just bizarre, and the blame-shifting is cynical and transparent.

I said I disagree with Obama on this. Given that, the rest of your comment MUST be aimed at someone other than me.

Willravel

We should probably leave the Pelosi stuff in the Pelosi thread. Wait, is there a Pelosi flip flop thread?

Cynthetiq

I don't know how many is enough. enough to prosecute? enough to convict? seems a modicum of respect and composure for the VICTIMS themselves. I've already used that as a reason, but that's not enough, because of whatever the fuck reasons that aren't enough. Willravel doesn't think that the victims seem to count because they don't need to be around their family members, justice is the the only way to be and live right. whatever that seems to be.

I have never said that there is any reason to hide them. I've not asked for them to be hidden. I've stated that they don't need to be in front of the entire public in order to prosecute or investigate. Why don't the need to be in the public? That's obviously the next question, because as I've shown before, respect for the victims. Not the obscuring their faces, or such thing that willravel thinks is enough, because they still live with it day to day for the rest of their lives. The damage is done the trauma is done.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.