FuglyStick

This thread could go in Philosophy or even General Discussion, so I leave it to a mod to move it if they see fit.

Normally on a message board, I wouldn't touch this issue with a 10 foot pole, but TFP has proven to be more civil and rational than other boards, so I will go ahead and broach the subject. A search revealed topics that touched upon the subject of reparations, but none that addressed it specifically.

For those that may need a definition of what reparations entail (although I'm sure that most TFPers already know), you can check out the Wikipedia entry here.

For the purposes of this thread, let's discuss the merit of reparations in and of itself, and not the implausibility of reparations given the current economic conditions.

It appears to me that the question of reparations comes down to this--are African Americans today owed financial compensation for atrocities committed generations before they were born? A person could easily conclude that the woes of the African American community, as a demographic, can be traced to the grudging, piecemeal compensation that has been doled out since emancipation; another person could conclude that most African Americans would not be Americans at all without slavery in the first place, and that they would be no better off if their forefathers had not been admittedly forced to become "Americans" via slavery (I'm playing devil's advocate here to make a point, folks).

Reparations by the American government are not without precedent. Japanese Americans have received reparations as a result of internment in detention camps during World War II, and Native Americans have been receiving reparations for land ceded to the US (not to mention European genocide of Native Americans); in addition, Native Americans are granted gaming privileges by the federal government, a very profitable source of income.

So, what does that mean in regards to reparations for the descendants of slavery? It's a difficult question. I have no problem conceding that the country was built in large part on slavery, and that the country owes it's rapid ascension to it's position as the most powerful nation in the world to slavery, and by extension, the slaves themselves. I can't, however, see a lump sum payment to the descendants of slavery being the answer to the problems that plague the African American community. Not only would the damage to race relations be unfathomable, but money without any real change in opportunities for African Americans is money that is gone in a generation with no lasting benefits. Or am I wrong? Can the problems of the African American community--drug use, crime, high unemployment rates--be remedied with an influx of wealth (I'm not saying these problems are exclusive to the African American community, only that, statistically, they are disproportionately high)?

I look forward to hearing your opinions.

__________________
AZIZ! LIGHT!

robot_parade

I think it's a terrible idea. From a logistical point of view, it's pretty difficult to figure out exactly how much harm was incurred by a specific person. With (for instance) the Japanese internment camps, most of the victims were still alive, and it was relatively easy to quantify a value and be done with it. For Native Americans, it's somewhat less clear, but we could at least come up with a somewhat reasonable standard - although the situation we have now isn't exactly great, it's workable. For descendants of slaves, it seems to me to be a lot harder. The harm done by slavery and racism is at the same time both harder to quantify, and more widespread. Societal harm done to minority groups due to racism is still going on, after all. We're now in a situation where races are equal under the law, which is a pretty good first step.

I think affirmative action has it's place, although it has to be implemented judiciously - the argument of a better-qualified candidate being passed over 'because he was a white male' is hard to refute. Affirmative action should be 'sunsetted' in favor of policies which give people of any socioeconomic background opportunity to excel. Free or subsidized education, healthcare, child care, etc. are all ways of providing social mobility, as well as reducing suffering. Programs that are based on need rather than categories such as race are key here, IMNSHO. After all, if we agree that descendants of slaves are a harmed class of people, and therefore are, as a class, in more dire economic straits, then policies that help people based upon need will by their very nature help them more often than white folks.

Another issue is resentment - which is a powerful recruiting tool for racist organizations, unfortunately.

Willravel

The African slave trade is one of the worst sins our country ever committed. It was a human rights violation of catastrophic scale. There's no statute of limitations on that kind of atrocity, regardless of how logistically difficult it might be to attempt reparations.

We could very easily provide way, way, way more scholarships for students that descended from slaves. We could very easily provide free job training for descendants of slaves. We could very easily not charge income taxes for descendants of slaves.

Zenturian

I figure fighing a war where one in four American was wounded in is enough of a payment. Also, black Americans enjoy the seventh best quality of life in the world, far better than any African nation. So in effect, reparations have already been paid.

pan6467

So should the Germans make restitution to the Jews, Catholics, Communists and so on they killed during Hitler/

Should the Japanese make restitution to the Koreans?

Should the Egyptians make restitution to the Jews? You said there is no statute of limitations.

What about Spain for holding the Inquisition or for the way they treated the Indians when coming here?

This type of thinking makes no sense to me. I'm sorry, no one in my family even fucking owned slaves. Slavery was long dead by the time my German/Italian/Irish/Welsh forefathers got here and not one ever lived South or West of Ohio as far as I know.

I have tax dollars going to bail out banks that raise my fees and credit card rates, I have taxes going to pay for AIG executive bonuses (oops someone blabbed people got mad and Obama fixed that....), I've got tax money going to help foreign countries that hate us and laughingly own our debt...... and you think we need to give more to African Americans because of slavery that we abolished some 140+ years ago??????? Are you fucking nuts?

We have an African American as president right now..... wtf higher glass ceiling is there? And people still want to say this is a racist country and we hold the black man down?

What reasoning is there for us to do more for ANY group of people over another?

Scholarships and financial aid should be totally blind to skin color or ethnic/religious/political etc backgrounds.

To give a people more simply because of a past that is OVER and done with is just creating far more problems than it will solve.

What? The white man has held down the black man in this country? We have had Supreme Court Justices, politicians, a President, governors, mayors, CEO's, and so on.

To say the white man has held them down, especially within the last 30 years, is an excuse for the way some have chosen to live. As long as there are groups allowing them that excuse there will always be some using it. Same with drug addicts, same with any group that uses excuses to live a life choice that they can get out of IF THEY FUCKING WORK HARD.

Try working in the poverty areas... I don't see oriental people claiming racism and hatred, I don't see whites doing it, I don't see Jews or pagans doing it... I see adult African Americans who do not get their way using it and doing so because they will benefit from it. IT'S BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

Without a doubt in my mind, absolutely. Germany committed what has to be one of the worst crimes in the history of our entire species. It's likely one of the worst things in the history of our planet. Germany is responsible for Germany's actions. I'm glad we had the Nuremberg trials, they were a step in the right direction, but ask a holocaust survivor if seeing a few officers convicted was restitution en . ough.
Probably. I'm not as familiar with this as I am with WWII or black slavery in America.
Jews aren't a race. I suppose if you could track down the descendants of the Semitics and Hurrians, there might be a case, but those people haven't existed in thousands of years
It wasn't just the Spanish.
You are a part of a republic, as a citizen you take responsibility for your government. Your government didn't make reparations when it promised. Do you really think there should be a statute of limitations on slavery? Can you really defend that position besides with "oh, but I don't own slaves"?
The bailout has nothing to do with reparations. Also, get off Obama. They have nothing to do with this, they're just red herrings. This is an ethical question.
Barack Obama isn't descended from slaves. So, again, he has nothing to do with this.
Because this country screwed over an entire race for centuries and it didn't stop with the abolition of slavery. It's still fucking going on now.
That assumes everything else is fair. Since it's not, you can't force it by pretending an unlevel playing field is level.
You don't understand what it's like to be black in America and neither do I. That episode of South Park is right. We'll never get what it's like at all. What I do know is that as white people we don't have the right to say it's over.
You don't see anyone but black people complain, therefore only black people complain?

Also, not to nitpick, but oriental is not the preferred nomenclature.

Derwood

Two quick things:

- How much $$$ is "enough" to repay the descendants of slaves?

- How do we determine who gets it? Proving direct lineage to slaves is shaky territory and seems wide open to being taken advantage of.

Rekna

I don't think giving them money directly is a good idea. Instead I think spending money to help counter social problems that have developed due to slavery is a much better idea. I think we should start by improving the inner city schools to be more like the suburban schools.

Derwood

You assume that the government actually wants the poor/minorities to better themselves

Rekna

Well I want the poor/minorities to better themselves because I see intrinsic value in it that benefits all of society. The difference between a 3rd world country and the US is the number of people that are poor and uneducated. Since I am a voter and I know I am not alone in my view then perhaps the government should do this. I think this quote fits this situation well "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure".

Zenturian

My comments were pretty much ignored...

Willravel

...fine.
The civil war was mainly about economic divergence, statism vs. federalism, and Southern paranoia about Lincoln. Oddly enough, these same issues plague our nation today. While the one of the eventual outcomes of the civil war was the Emancipation Proclamation, the war itself wasn't really just about slavery. It wasn't even primarily about slavery. Those injured Americans weren't just injured for slaves, they were injured for myriad reasons.

As for quality of life, that's a bit of an oversimplification. Black people in the US are disproportionately impoverished. Black people in the US are disproportionately incarcerated. Black people in the US are still very often the victims of systemic racism. Things are better than they were 100 years ago, but that's not really saying much.

Manic_Skafe

Once you get past the sadness that comes along with the realization that this is very likely one of the most intelligent forums on the web and yet it harbors opinions as hopelessly naive as this - these threads are actually quite funny.

Check the dates here. People seem to think that everyone magically became equal the second slavery was abolished.

We're talking myriad effects here. How anyone could even begin to put a number on that is beyond me but, even then, that amount could hardly be considered reparations when the playing field is so obviously uneven. Not to mention the shitload of deserving groups.

Even if cash reparations would do some good, I'd imagine we'd fair better if we took a serious stab at ensuring that "We The People" actually referred to all of us.

Kudos to Willravel for being such a masochist that he takes these threads seriously.

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"Porn is a zoo of exotic animals that becomes boring upon ownership." -Nersesian

JumpinJesus

What happened to 40 acres and a mule? Was that promise honored? If yes, then I don't think reparations are needed. If not, then isn't it important that our government honor its promises? What's 40 acres and a mule worth today?

__________________
"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

rahl

As for quality of life, that's a bit of an oversimplification. Black people in the US are disproportionately impoverished. Black people in the US are disproportionately incarcerated. Black people in the US are still very often the victims of systemic racism. Things are better than they were 100 years ago, but that's not really saying much.[/QUOTE]


So your saying that black people in jail are only there because they're black?
I'm pretty sure if they're in jail it's because they committed a crime, got caught, and were tried and convicted in a court of law, based on evidence collected.

As far as racism goes, IMO, it's people like Al Sharpton and Jessie Jackson, or the NAACP in general that fuel racism. Everything that happens to a black person, regardless of guilt or innocense, is automatically racism to them.

I truely feel awefull that human beings were property at one point, it's a terrible atrocity.

I will not, however, give money to someone because a few hundred years ago, a black persons great great great great grandfather was a slave. It has nothing to do with me or anyone else alive today. I have no idea if my ancestors owned slaves, and I really don't care. I didn't and never would. I believe all people are equal under the law and should be treated accordingly, not given special compensation because of the color of their skin, that is racist.

KirStang

The problem I have with reparations is the potential for misuse. In other words, giving money to descendants of slaves is a bludgeon to a surgical problem. So, I'm all for tax breaks, subsidies, even school vouchers/busses/magnet programs and all that targeting the descendants, but I think the potential to squander reparation monies is too great--especially in a recessionary economy. (IMO)

roachboy

jesus. this is entirely against by better judgment that i'm writing anything here.

--reconstruction.
this is the period of american history that conservatives in particular like to erase. maybe it helps some contemporary conservatives to better repeat the same kind of arguments if they can tell themselves that there's no precedent for them--i dunno. you want to see what happened to the reparations that were proposed after the civil war--which were more aimed at helping the ex-slave population begin operating in socio-economic terms in ways that broke with the past, check out the history of the reconstruction period. it was the white southern petit bourgeois who tried to set THEMSELVES up as the Victim of reconstruction...while the history is detailed and squalid beyond imagining, its outcomes are self-evident. same whining from the right now. except these days history itself is just another Evil Factor which Persecutes them.

as for the reactionary "Reverse Racism" canard--i am way too sick of having to chop up the myriad stupidities behind this to bother with it again.
the idea that what's at stake in a reparations proposal is skin color alone, abstracted from the past, is so idiotic that it boggles the mind.
paper-thin thinking yields paper-thin results.

it is both amazing and depressing--mostly the latter--the extent to which people like in a historical vacuum.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

Sherman's Special Field Orders offered each freed family 40 acres and a mule, not the white southerners. I'm not aware of widespread white slavery in the pre-Civil war US, therefore, the orders really only talk about the slaves we all picture. It's these orders people cite when commonly discussing reparations. Still, this is less about committed obligation and more about justice. The social inequality reparations were supposed to help fix still exist, albeit in a different incarnation.

pan6467

No, I only see black people talk about how the white man keeps them down or how when they are caught doing something and told it is wrong, it becomes "you are racist."

I don't see any other group use "you are racist" as an excuse to get away with something.

I may not have a job because Saturday a black man, who oh by the way is a drug dealer and has a history of coming into detox only to find business, threatened me and put his hands on me (simply for the fact I told him I was busy and my co worker could dial the phone for him. He had just used the phone asking someone if they "were going to front the money" and that "there was a mistake because they had the wrong address but it's going to be ok tomorrow, you just need to front the money."). After he threatened me and touched me, I said I was going to call the cops.

He of course pulled the "you are racist" bullshit and went on a rampage telling every other client how the place is run by racists and I would never call the cops on a white guy. (ANY client threatens me and then touches me I'm calling the cops.) I am damn good at what I do and the color of skin/ethnicity/sex etc has never affected my helping others. 95% of my coworkers know this, as do most clients when they see me talking to people who are begging for help.

First shift said he was trying to pick fights on their shift. Clients stated he was angry and everyone saw he was trying to pick fights with them.

The problem now with the people I work for is not what happened, nor because I deferred him to another counselor to use the phone or that I called the cops but that this guy used the word "racist". Because of that, irregardless of his actions or the threats the company by policy and the county run ADM board and the Ohio Dept of Alcohol and Drug Abuse Services (ODADAS) have to investigate the situation and I may lose my job.

This is just an example.

If you give reparations or even keep talking about it you allow this kind of behavior to continue. Simply because people will be able to use it as an excuse for poor behavior. It allows them to do that.

You want true equality and blind justice for all, then why continue to give excuses and condone this behavior?

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

samcol

Ya, I quoted a slave owner

I'm no descendant of a slave owner, and don't feel like I or anyone should have to pay reparations.

I tend to agree.

---------- Post added at 06:49 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:47 PM ----------

I see what you did there....

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

roachboy

this is what i was talking about, pan.
*you* are the ultimate victim of racism.

unbelievable.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Seaver

Make every person who is directly tracked back to a slave owning past pay the decendant of the slave owned, divide the 40 acres and a mule between all the decendents. Per person that's what? $40 each?

If the nation decided to take my tax dollars to reparations I simply will short pay my taxes. Highest form of patriotism right?

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"Smite the rocks with the rod of knowledge, and fountains of unstinted wealth will gush forth." - Ashbel Smith as he laid the first cornerstone of the University of Texas

ngdawg

May I assume you mean the Cherokee, Apache, Sioux, Blackfoot, et al, nations?

Re: Germans paying back for the Holocaust: Descendants are getting their artworks, jewelry, etc. back in drips and drabs. My grandmother's family was wiped out but I don't expect nor would I ask for whatever they had or the monetary value of such.
My grandfather, the son of a well-to-do merchant, became an orphan and a refugee from Russia around the time of the Bolshevik Revolution. Do the Russians owe my family? Nah...

I am not the descendant of slave owners, I am not a descendant of any early Americans and my taxes pay for enough drivel. I am one paycheck away from homelessness and can't afford steak but I'm supposed to support restitution to a single group of people based on their heritage? Nah..

History is history. Learn from it, move on, vow to never let it happen again.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Rekna

Like I said earlier we need to fix the disparities in the education system. On top of that we need to fix the disparities in the justice system. Let's face it white people get off much lighter than minorities for comparable crimes. Why is the punishment for crack cocaine so much worse than cocaine? They are the same drug in a different form. Could it be that crack cocaine is the preferred drug of rich white people?

To many minority children in the country are growing up without a father, either because they are dead, in prison, or just a dead beat. This problem cannot be easily fixed and it is going to take time. To do this we need to change an entire culture. We need to give the children a good education and good role models. We need programs that keep the children engaged in positive activity and not the negative activities that are plaguing their culture.

What was done is done and is now unimportant compared to what we can do now. We will never change the past but we can change the future. Simply giving land/money to people will not solve these problems which is one major reason that I do not support reparations. Instead we can use that same money to change the entire culture for the good.

Charlatan

Technically this has been already happening. With specific reference to the Jews, German has been giving reparations to Israel since 1953. (LINK).

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"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

rahl

Why is his point invalid?

That is a perfect example of someone playing the "race"card

Willravel

I never said that there aren't any black assholes. We all have to deal with assholes of every race, gender, and creed. It's a part of life. That doesn't have anything to do with reparations, though.

And for the last time, no one thinks you're a racist.

JumpinJesus

What are you talking about? Who said anything about white slavery?

Every freed slave was promised 40 acres and a mule, they were given some paltry bullshit consolation prize and then had it taken away from them by Johnson. I think the less-enlightened of us call that Indian Giving. If a nation honoring it's promises to its own quasi-citizens is not a form of justice, then I'd like to hear what you believe justice is.

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"I can normally tell how intelligent a man is by how stupid he thinks I am" - Cormac McCarthy, All The Pretty Horses

roachboy

rahl--see no. 17

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

pan6467

So I open up about a personal experience and you are going to fucking mock me?????

WTF?

I was showing how the term "Racism" is abused and how some abuse it and YOU ARE GOING TO FUCKING TURN IT ON ME?????

GO TO FUCKING HELL I MAY LOSE MY FUCKING JOB OVER THIS BULLSHIT AND YOU WANT TO INFER THAT IT IS MY FAULT....... FUCK YOU!!!!!!

The incident had nothing to do with racism until HE started screaming racism, thinking it would get him out of trouble, take the focus off his wrong abusive behavior and punish me.

You prove that the problem is serious because you turned it on me?

The guy is wanted, he has a warrant, he was in Detox solely to make drug deals and I wouldn't let him use the phone to do it, so I'm the fucking racist???? He threatened me, touched me and I'm the fucking racist? Why am I the racist because I see what he's doing, taking the heat off his actions and blaming someone else????

WTF?

I even talked to a lawyer yesterday about it and there's not a whole Hell of a lot I can do about this. IT'S MY FUCKING CAREER AT STAKE!

Anyone knowing me personally knows I am not racist or prejudice in any way. YOU may think so because I don't hold beliefs like you do, but my beliefs do not prevent me from believing or seeing all people as equal.

I just don't understand people who believe the behavior of this guy is ok because he screamed racism to get out of the trouble he was in.

And if the mods want to censure me for this fine.... but FUCK YOU for that comment. HOW IS THIS MY FAULT? And yes, at this moment, as my job hangs on the line I do feel a victim of racism because he can scream it and I have to prove I'm not. I thought we were innocent UNTIL proven guilty.

Even if I do get to keep my job, I'm sure now every time a black man/woman asks for something I better give it to them. Fuck the white/asians/hispanics and native americans.... they have to follow the rules.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Willravel

I wanted to make sure Roachboy's post wasn't misunderstood. His point about the historical context was important, but I felt the descriptions about "the white southern petit bourgeois" needed clarification.
Who are you arguing against? It's certainly not me. I've always supported the idea of reparations.

roachboy

i made the point i intended to make in no. 17, pan.

maybe you didn't see it----i assumed you did and just thought your post a remarkable demonstration of what i was saying.

suffice it to say you totally misunderstood my response.

but the point i am making is pretty ugly: so your reaction isn't entirely a surprise.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Willravel

If what happened happened, I'm sorry, but he's not every black person between the Emancipation Proclamation and now. He's one man. One asshole cannot be used as a basis to judge an entire race.

samcol

Sometimes your posts are very easy to misunderstand. In many posts it seems you try to pass long sentences and lack of capitalization as being more intelligent. IE if someone can't figure out what you are getting at you win the argument automatically.

I'm not the greatest with the English language, however sometimes your posts are very difficult to decipher. Your style does not at all make for easy internet debate.

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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize.

timalkin

The election of The Messiah, aka The Great One, is enough reparation for every wrong done in the past, present or future. Now that's change we can believe in.

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Willravel

This is why the Republican party is dying. And it's hilarious. Keep attacking a popular president. Keep attacking people that voted for a popular president. Keep using simplistic attacks instead of meaningful dialogue. I'll laugh all the way to the polling station next cycle as Republicans lose more and more ground.

FuglyStick

Everyone was addressing the issue in the thread, and staying more or less on target, on both sides, till this post. Congrats, Timalkin.

I haven't abandoned this thread, but I've been reading responses to make a better reply. Thanks to those who have been contributing something.

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AZIZ! LIGHT!

pan6467

Yes, it really happened and yes, my job and career are in limbo because of it. I am not just having my professional life looked at but my personal.

I'm not saying he is. In fact there are far fewer that use the race card than do. Mainly because most know it is an excuse to allow for bad behavior. But it is used and quite effectively because the white person called racist is guilty until proven innocent and then has to make sure there is never a question again. This allows for bad behavior to continue.

It's a perfect addiction ploy. If I know I can use something that will take heat off my bad behavior and make others feel sorry for me while someone else has to take heat I will do so. I will manipulate the situation into my favor. AND WE ARE DOING THAT WITH THE AFRICAN AMERICAN COMMUNITY.

"It's not your fault you live in poverty. You were never given a chance." If we say that long enough to someone they believe it, they don't try to succeed and they use that to manipulate others to give tacit approval to bad behaviors.

We have tried to even the playing field and it is far more even now then it ever has been, but we still talk about how repressed and held down they are so that those who want to use that as an excuse or want to manipulate situations so they don't face, for example assault and battery charges, we still bend over backwards to allow them to do so.

With EQUALITY, TRUE FUCKING EQUALITY, there is no such thing as looking at the past and putting guilt on one side and allowing the other side excuses for not succeeding.

If we keep telling segments they are being held down and forces outside of their control will never allow them to move upward.... they will believe that and use that as an excuse to not try. All reparations will do in the end is give more excuses and build more hatred.

How many innocent people have lost their jobs, their livelihoods and reputations because they were falsely accused of "racism"? And we allow it. We make excuses for it.

Yet, if 1 innocent African American/black person is affected by true racism, we make sure that they get everything they can and we hold them up as examples to how bad society treats the black person.

But when we find an innocent falsely accused of racism, we don't give them their life back.... we say "FUCK YOU, you probably are a racist or were racist you just weren't in this situation." IF we even care about their innocence at all.

That is a far bigger problem and hypocrisy than going back into history and making reparations for events that no one alive ever, ever partook in.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Slims

I fail to see how I am responsible for the sins of someone else simply because we share the same skin color. Isn't that sort of categorization more or less what we are trying to get away from in this country?

Also, if you spoil your kids and give them things they haven't earned, they are far more likely to turn into deadbeats who rely on mommy and daddy. Wouldn't it be absolutely criminal to in essence do the same to the black community by giving people huge handouts which removes (if only for a little while) the need to remain competitive? Or would more affirmative action be the solution to shore up that problem?

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"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Willravel

Pan, it's not the fault of black people that blacks are disproportionately poor. And it's not the fault of non-blacks saying that it's not their fault. It's the continuing existence of inequality dating back to the beginning of our nation.
No. No "buts". Some people have worked very hard to level the playing field. And we've made some astounding progress. We're simply not done yet. It's going to take a continuing, tenacious effort to finally push things to equality from inequality. Don't stop now, we're getting closer.
Like Manic said before, this isn't about something that ended. It's about something that continued on long after black people were freed. It's something still going on today.
That's fucking bullshit and you know it. This thread isn't about the tiny, tiny amount of people that are victimized by people abusing white guilt, it's about reparations. Stop being a drama queen. This thread isn't about you being victimized. You're white.

Slavery happened. It was a crime against humanity. For that crime, the government promised to make restitution. The government bitched out. Racism, which you can link directly to slavery, is still going on. It's not too late to make amends, which were promised.

---------- Post added at 07:19 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:17 PM ----------

You're not responsible. We're all collectively responsible as the population of the republic. We bear the responsibility for our government. Our government promised compensation. Stop thinking like a conservative and start thinking like a citizen.