An Act of War? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Strange Famous · 05-02-2009, 01:39 PM

If the state of a foriegn power carries out the killing of a British citizen, a 20 year old woman; if this woman is raped in prison with state sponsorship, this is an act of war against the British people.

What is our government doing in relation to this abuse, this criminal attack on Britian?

This must not be tolerated.

We may not be a great power, but we are not a laughing stock on the world stage yet either. I am literally seething reading this article, and I call on a very heavy toll to be levied against the state of Laos (ie military intervention) if a full release, with at least £10 million in compensation for this woman, is not forthcoming in the next 24 hours. Any deviance from this course should be considered as an act of war against the United Kingdom of Great Britian and Northern Ireland in my opinion. We are fghting in Afghanistan for far less in terms of our national dignity.

Quote:

A pregnant British woman is facing death by firing squad if she is convicted of drug smuggling in Laos.

Samantha Orobator, from south London, was arrested at Wattay Airport in Laos in August last year after allegedly being found in possession of 1.5lb (680g) of heroin.

The 20-year-old, who had been on holiday in Thailand, has been held since her arrest at the notorious Phonthong prison, where inmates have complained of being beaten and abused.

Orobator became pregnant in December and is due to give birth in early September.

Reprieve legal director Clive Stafford Smith said her trial had been brought forward after arrangements were made for her to see a lawyer for the first time.

He has called on the British Government to intervene on her behalf.

At a press conference in central London, he said: "It's absolutely no coincidence that yesterday the Laotians announced that they were moving her trial up probably by a year to next week.

"It's pretty shocking that they would do that apparently to avoid her seeing a British lawyer before she has to go to trial.

"The notion that no lawyer should be appointed to defend her is outrageous."

He said she was "certainly not guilty" and had originally told police the drugs were not hers.

In Laos, people caught with more than 1lb (0.5kg) of heroin face a mandatory death sentence.

Mr Stafford Smith added: "We're dealing with a woman who has clearly become pregnant in prison. Nothing that happens in that prison is voluntary."

Ronke Oseni, 21, a psychology student at Kingston University, has known Orobator for 11 years. Orobator lived with her family before she left the country but Miss Oseni only found out about her friend's situation on Wednesday.

She said: "There is no one there to visit her, no one to talk to, she doesn't speak the language. I'm really scared for her. I can't even imagine what she's going through.

"The punishment does not fit the crime. They want to shoot her but what about the baby?"

She said her friend had planned to become a medical doctor and was a good student.

"It's not in her character to take drugs, she has never taken drugs in her life. When we were at school together she never got in trouble."

Miss Oseni also said Orobator had led a troubled life and had made several suicide attempts in the past, adding: "She suffered from low self esteem because she suffered a lot of abuse by men, by family, by friends."

Labour MP Stephen Pound, vice chair of the all party group on the death penalty, said the situation "cannot be over-dramatised".

He said: "A young woman who is now pregnant, is in prison in the most inhumane circumstances, and is facing the death penalty by firing squad."

He said the conditions in the prison were horrific, with evidence of "no space, no light, no exercise, no diet, no food, no consideration of the needs of a woman carrying a baby".

Earlier, a Foreign Office spokeswoman said: "We are paying close attention to her welfare and are in discussion with the Laotian authorities about her case.

"We have visited Samantha every month and we have kept in close contact with the family."

She said Foreign and Commonwealth Affairs Minister Bill Rammell will raise the issue when the Laotian foreign minister visits the UK next Thursday.

But Mr Stafford Smith said: "That's not much good. The trial will be over by then. We're calling on the Government to do everything in its power."

He said he was calling for the trial to be put back, for Reprieve lawyers and mental health professionals to be allowed into the prison, and for assurances that Orobator would be provided with a proper defence.

Orobator lived in both Camberwell and Peckham before she left, going first to Ireland where her mother Jane Orobator and three young sisters live.

SSJTWIZTA · 05-03-2009, 01:25 AM

i was watching this show "Locked up Abroad."

i was half paying attention, but the story was of a british woman that tried to smuggle heroin i believe from some country in asia.

she was caught, and the sentence was death. when she got caught the airport security guy actually looked at her, made a gun shape with his fingers and thumb, put it to his head, and made the "bang" motion, telling her this was her fate.

she didnt get it, she got out some years later and finally went to college.

Strange Famous · 05-03-2009, 02:35 AM

I mean, maybe a declaration of war is a bit over the top - but the UK is a G20 nation and we should be able to prevent our citizens being treated in this way by a country like Laos

Baraka_Guru · 05-03-2009, 06:55 AM

The execution of foreigners isn't an act of war. If you are convicted of a crime in a foreign nation--and if your government does nothing to extradite you and punish you locally--then you are subject to those laws.

The United States has executed over 20 foreigners since 1988; and Saudi Arabia has executed over 200.
Death Row Foreigners Worldwide

There are over 124 active death sentences of foreigners in the United States.
Foreign Nationals and the Death Penalty in the US | Death Penalty Information Center

dlish · 05-03-2009, 07:45 AM

just because the UK is in the G20, doesnt make their claim for differential treatment any more plausable.

you do the crime...

i dont believe its an act of war. was she wrongly charged and convicted? and even so, it doesnt make it an act of war.

if anyone could explain what constitutes an act of war anyways?

Strange Famous · 05-03-2009, 09:02 AM

Well we probably cant stop the United States executing a British citizen, since they are more powerful and richer than us. But we can stop Laos from doing so. If I was in power I would be making very clear to them behind the scenes that I would have some gunboats on the way if this woman is killed by their state. The killing of a 20 girl by a foriegn state is an act of aggression of the most deplorable nature. We invaded Afghanistan to depose the Taleban because of their human rights record against their own citizens, surely we ought to be able to defend one of our own with force if necessary?

spectre · 05-03-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Well we probably cant stop the United States executing a British citizen, since they are more powerful and richer than us. But we can stop Laos from doing so. If I was in power I would be making very clear to them behind the scenes that I would have some gunboats on the way if this woman is killed by their state. The killing of a 20 girl by a foriegn state is an act of aggression of the most deplorable nature. We invaded Afghanistan to depose the Taleban because of their human rights record against their own citizens, surely we ought to be able to defend one of our own with force if necessary?

Punishing someone for a criminal act not an act of aggression of a nation, it's state law there. Grated it's a terrible law, but it's still their law.

Strange Famous · 05-03-2009, 09:26 AM

If this was a man there might even be an argument to say that we have to respect the laws of another nation state - but the basic laws of human decency surely forbid the gunning down of a 20 year old girl by the law?

ratbastid · 05-03-2009, 09:26 AM

When you visit a foreign country, you're bound by the law of the land. Different cultures have different standards that underlie their law, and it's really on the traveler to be sensitive to that.

Has a miscarriage of justice been done in this case? Probably. Act of war that warrants a military response? No.

dlish · 05-03-2009, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

We invaded Afghanistan to depose the Taleban because of their human rights record against their own citizens, surely we ought to be able to defend one of our own with force if necessary?

you what? you invaded afghanistan because of their terrible human rights record against their own people? please show me how?

here i was thinking that we invaded them because of 911 and because they harboured terrorists and in simple terms were with 'them' and not with 'us'.

you seem to have the mentality that if someone is weaker, then you ought to have th right to push your weight around, regardless of whether they have their own laws. a bit self righteous dont you think?

it also comes off as a bit high schoolish where the bullies would pick on the meagre and weak little kids, just because they could.

Strange Famous · 05-03-2009, 09:37 AM

Quite simply, yes I believe if you are strong there are cases when it is justified to use that strength to protect your citizens. I believe that the fact we are more powerful than Laos means that we should bully and threaten them - to save the life of a 20 year old girl who is going to be shot down like a dog.

And obviously the UK didnt lead the attack on Afghanistan, but we are fighting there. If it was about routing out the terrorists we'd be fighting in Pakistan...

Baraka_Guru · 05-03-2009, 09:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Quite simply, yes I believe if you are strong there are cases when it is justified to use that strength to protect your citizens. I believe that the fact we are more powerful than Laos means that we should bully and threaten them - to save the life of a 20 year old girl who is going to be shot down like a dog.

I believe this is the wrong reason to bully or threaten a nation. The British already have a long history of imperialism to live down. Why do this to Laos simply because a British foreign national is up on drug charges?

I could see diplomatic attempts to extradite and charge her in Britain--but an act of aggression on a non-political matter? That itself is more an act of war than what Laos is doing, which is merely enforcing its own laws upon a civilian.

Quote:

If this was a man there might even be an argument to say that we have to respect the laws of another nation state - but the basic laws of human decency surely forbid the gunning down of a 20 year old girl by the law?

This is not a gender issue.

Strange Famous · 05-03-2009, 10:03 AM

Of course gender is a part of the issue. This is not a hardened drug trafficker we are talking about, its a 20 year old girl. doesnt that mean anything to you?

Yes, we should ask Laos nicely by all means, and even consider bribing them - but any discussion should take place clearly with a big club in our fist that is very visible to them.

What is the point of being a (relatively) powerful nation if you are to stand by and watch a young girl from Britain be gunned down like an animal? ALL the means of the British state should be employed to protect the lives of British citizens.

spectre · 05-03-2009, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Of course gender is a part of the issue. This is not a hardened drug trafficker we are talking about, its a 20 year old girl. doesnt that mean anything to you?

So, young girls can't traffic drugs?

Strange Famous · 05-03-2009, 11:11 AM

I cant think of any 20 year old female drug barons Ive ever heard of.

If she committed a crime, fair enough she should face jail time if found guilty - but there are allegations she has been raped in jail, she has mental health issues which the state are ignoring and even exploiting, she has not had fair access to the legal system to defend herself, and is facing a firing squad. Does anyone think that this is acceptable?

Perhaps citizens of Laos have to accept these conditions, I feel sorry for them if they live under such a barbaric government: but I will not accept these conditions being imposed on a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

If this was your relation would you not want the state to take action?

timalkin · 05-03-2009, 11:26 AM

Baraka_Guru · 05-03-2009, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

Of course gender is a part of the issue. This is not a hardened drug trafficker we are talking about, its a 20 year old girl. doesnt that mean anything to you?

Logically, that she's a female implies it's easier for her to get away with crime because of the perceived innocence of female youth. Emotionally, I don't want harm to come to a young woman with child. Realistically, she's up on drug charges, and it doesn't matter whether she is lacking a Y chromosome. If she were male, I wouldn't want her to face this fate.

This isn't a gender issue unless you want to make it a human rights issue concerning the allegations of abuse and her being with child. Otherwise, it doesn't matter. Males aren't any more expendable than females, nor are females incapable of committing serious drug crimes. They are actually prime candidates for trafficking.

Do we even know enough details on her case?

Quote:

Yes, we should ask Laos nicely by all means, and even consider bribing them - but any discussion should take place clearly with a big club in our fist that is very visible to them.

So sabre-rattling?

Quote:

What is the point of being a (relatively) powerful nation if you are to stand by and watch a young girl from Britain be gunned down like an animal? ALL the means of the British state should be employed to protect the lives of British citizens.

Then she should be extradited and charged to the full extent of British law.

Quote:

Originally Posted by timalkin

I'd like to make sure she had a fair trial. If she did indeed smuggle heroin into Laos, oh well. She can't be too smart. What is it they say about survival of the fittest?

I'd like to know whether there is credible evidence.

About "survival of the fittest": most people misuse and/or misunderstand the term. She's pregnant, which means she's fertile. This is a strong case for her being "fit." There are, of course, other factors. Did you mean this in an evolutionary sense or a philosophical one?

spectre · 05-03-2009, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I cant think of any 20 year old female drug barons Ive ever heard of.

It does happen.

Your attitude is the exact reason that women are preferred as drug mules, because they may be overlooked due to some idealistic notion that a young woman would/could not be a drug mule.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

If she committed a crime, fair enough she should face jail time if found guilty - but there are allegations she has been raped in jail, she has mental health issues which the state are ignoring and even exploiting, she has not had fair access to the legal system to defend herself, and is facing a firing squad. Does anyone think that this is acceptable?

Perhaps citizens of Laos have to accept these conditions, I feel sorry for them if they live under such a barbaric government: but I will not accept these conditions being imposed on a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

You're right. It is entirely unacceptable. It's downright cruel and I'm not going to argue against you on that point. Good luck convincing a nation to go to war over it though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

If this was your relation would you not want the state to take action?

Of course I would, as would anyone, but that doesn't mean the nation should. No offense, but saying "if it was your relation" is always a weak argument because whenever it comes to family, people will almost always put logic aside for emotional reactions.

This thread reminds me of a bit by Eddie Izzard:
“Pol Pot killed one point seven million Cambodians, died under house
arrest, well done there. Stalin killed many millions, died in his bed, aged
seventy-two, well done indeed. And the reason we let them get away with it
is they killed their own people. And we're sort of fine with that. Hitler
killed people next door. Oh, stupid man. After a couple of years we won't
stand for that, will we?”

My point being, all of this outrage and emotion over this one girl, but who gives a shit about all of the others who have died, right?

Something should be done, but it will be done diplomatically and will only affect her. Nothing will change there though.

I think Baraka hit this one on the head.

Strange Famous · 05-03-2009, 11:56 AM

I am more than happy for to extradited to the UK and face our justice system.

I understand legally that a woman's life is not worth more than a man's life... and that the unborn child you will be shot too is not worth more or less than any other innocent life taken - but as a human being surely you must feel as I do that to execute a pregnant woman is barbaric beyond rational comprehension?

Baraka_Guru · 05-03-2009, 12:14 PM

SF, I don't think anyone would easily disagree with you on the issue of whether this is a fair punishment for a drug crime, especially considering she's pregnant.

But many of us know the cost of war--the majority of the tab is usually picked up by the completely innocent.

Slims · 05-03-2009, 01:48 PM

I'm sorry, but if she smuggled drugs in a country where the penalty for doing so is death, then what's the problem?

If some Englishman went to Texas and committed serial homicide, he would likely face the death penalty as well. And it is entirely the right of the state to enforce it's laws...If you are not willing to abide by them, don't travel to that country and commit crimes.

asaris · 05-03-2009, 02:01 PM

I think the problems isn't so much that a different country is imposing a different penalty for a crime; it's that it's doing so without anything resembling due process. I mean, how would you like it if you were visiting Laos, and then were all of a sudden thrown into jail, and a few months later were told a court had found you guilty? Even minus the rape and abuse, it sucks. If there was something resembling due process, I wouldn't complain, but since it doesn't look like she got anything resembling a fair trial, I agree that Britain ought to apply the diplomatic thumbscrews.

roachboy · 05-03-2009, 02:17 PM

so wait. from what i gather, the trial hasn't happened yet--it's scheduled to happen in the next day or two. there are appearances of procedural problems, but its hard to say from what i am reading on this whether that amounts to saying that the laotian system isnt like the british. there's another question concerning capital punlshment given the uk's rejection of this barbaric action--this leads to human rights problems in principle---but what forum is there that this sort of question can be heard in?

at this level, then, we have yet another example of the stupidity of nation-states of the equation of sovereignty with nation-states.

there's a terrible reputation associated with the prison she's been held in but it isn't obvious that she's been treated badly simply because there's apparently been no contact from her until quite recently.

so it isn't yet obvious what's going to happen--at least that's the impression i have gathered from reading around on this situation.

dlish · 05-03-2009, 07:28 PM

SF your reasonngs give way for anarchy within the laos system.

imagine the laos nationals thinking that had they commited the same crime, they'd be dead, but because she was a young uk national, she'd get away with it. it wouldnt go down well.

we had a similar case a few years ago in bali - indonesia for smuggling marijuana - schapelle corby. a young good looking aussie surfer girl who the media supported for only 1 reason. because she was good looking. it didnt matter that she was guilty. no. fuck the rule of the land in other countries, she should be set free.

she got what she deserved - 20 years. she was lucky she didnt get death. do i have any remorse? not really. she knew what she was doing. do i have any remorse for this one? only if she doesnt get a fair trail.

im still thinking that this is the stupidist idea to go to war since ...well ..since we went to war for oil. at least with oil its helping the economy... in this case your putting a potential drug dealer back on your streets. if i had kids id be very afraid if you decided to take gordon browns job

Xerxys · 05-03-2009, 09:27 PM

No really, if she smuggled drugs, into a VERY VERY VERY unstable area like south east Asia, a country such as Indonesia, Thailand ... Laos even.

What did she expect?

Huh, I take that back, she wasn't counting on getting caught.

Rule number two of life ... The Law is the Law, and the law is always right.

spindles · 05-03-2009, 10:11 PM

basically what dlish said - the corby case was heavily played out in the media here. Anyone willing to scratch the surface came to a fairly quick 'the media is full of crap' conclusion. Just because a story appears in a newspaper does not make it the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

The_Jazz · 05-04-2009, 05:33 AM

I can't get past the concept that it's somehow proper to declare war and put soldiers into harm's way because of a single citizen who might have done wrong. Regardless of whether she did or didn't or how corrupt or not the Laotian government is, how is all-out war (since war by half-measure is a recipe for failure) even an option?

Strange Famous · 05-04-2009, 05:47 AM

I said that a declaration of war was over the top. Strategic bombing of a few selected government buildings should be sufficient.

And if Laos has any intelligence it needn't come to that at all - but I say again a nation should not stand by feebly while a vulnerable, helpless young girl is facing the possibility of a firing squad.

In the real world, full out war is not going to happen. Diplomatic channels should be tried first, and if they dont work then the presence of a couple of gunboats should pursuade Laos that the rights of British citizens cannot be abused by their tinpot govt in this way.

roachboy · 05-04-2009, 05:51 AM

there's really no redress for this kind of situation so long as nation-states hold sovereignty--that is so long as there are no trans or extra-national legal institutions. even then, there's be problems.

what's strange about this really is the extent to which it devolves onto a dick thing--it is somehow "wrong" that a citizen of a former colonial power should be treated badly by one of these "lesser" countries--you know, with the "tinpot" legal systems and all that.

dlish · 05-04-2009, 06:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

I said that a declaration of war was over the top. Strategic bombing of a few selected government buildings should be sufficient.

sorry but this is laughable...

i think your scenario for selected bombardment is more of an act of war than the implementation of Loas's laws by the sovereign government.

The_Jazz · 05-04-2009, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Strange Famous

And if Laos has any intelligence it needn't come to that at all - but I say again a nation should not stand by feebly while a vulnerable, helpless young girl is facing the possibility of a firing squad.

Or a ruthless drug runner who cares only for her own personal profit and not the lives she takes or ruins with her product.

I don't think the UK government is going to "stand by feebly" if they've got proof that she's innocent. Which I'm sure they don't. The UK could bomb Laos, but that wouldn't be much different than the US invasion of Iraq except, you know, with a prettier face.

SF - this better be Helen of Troy that you're talking about here. I still think it's horrid that you'd sacrifice hundreds of Laotians who have nothing to do with the situation for a single British woman who might not be worth the trouble. Think about the price you're putting on her life - one Samantha Orobator = 50 Laotians? 100? 500?

Strange Famous · 05-04-2009, 06:31 AM

You cannot put a price on our soverignty. I am not proposing to kill any citizens of Laos: if the government of Laos does push the situation to a confrontation that is a decision they made. If I was in power I would not be asking for regime change, or their oil, or their territory...I would be demanding that internationally recognised standards of human rights are observed in regard to a citizen of the UK. I am not saying she shouldnt be punished because she is pretty (if you look up pictures of her she isnt especially) - I am saying that if I was in power I would not stand by and watch a British citizen, who is a 20 year pregnant woman with a history of mental illness, be shot like a animal on the basis of an allegation in regards to a minor offense which does not involve violence in any way.

If she is a drug smuggler she should face consequences for her actions: but Laos is a member of the community of nations and they must fulfill their obligation to not violate basic human rights of foriegn citizens.

Of course a peaceful resolution is preferable, and whatever is being said in public we should in private be working towards this. But (again if I was in power) I would be making it very clear that the judicial murder of a British citizen would not be tolerated under any conditions and that there would be consequences to this which would be disasterous for Laos.

roachboy · 05-04-2009, 06:51 AM

i spent a few minutes again cruising around the hall of mirrors that is net-infotainment on this---you know how it is, the same wire-service articles appear in a million places, each time announced as if there's something particular about this iteration of the same wire-service article...

anyway: it appears that the trial has been pushed back for a few days at least; laotian information ministry people are due in london on the 7th to see if there's a way out of this. information is obviously sketchy at this point from non-wire service sources, which is an interesting little window onto the lack of transparency about information on the net. but i digress.

at the same time, 650g of heroin is a pound and a half. while not an epic number, it isn't exactly trivial. in the states, she'd be facing 5-10 years manditory minimum for that amount.

and it appears that rules regarding searches in border areas are a little funny---alot of the rules that one would expect to hold inside a national boundary don't quite at border checkpoints. strange.

dlish · 05-04-2009, 07:45 AM

id hate to dig up buried bones, but...

SF,

a minor offence?? you think drug trafficking is a minor offence?

no no no no...chris brown did a 'minor offence' compared to this! and you wanted to send him in for a quarter of his life.

Baraka_Guru · 05-04-2009, 08:04 AM

She was carrying enough for many doses of heroin.

Regardless, considering the situation, I'd like to see her extradited to Britain, where she should face criminal charges under British law. If she's guilty, it's really unfortunate because I'm assuming it'll mean her child will become a ward of the state.

Unless I'm mistaken, under British law, the maximum penalty for trafficking heroin is life imprisonment and a hefty fine.

Poppinjay · 05-04-2009, 08:40 AM

C'mon guys, haven't you seen Chained Heat 2? You know the only way these nubile, troubled young women get into trouble is because some ne'er do well places drugs in their purse after they fall alseep on on the Nurrgegaardem train system, then a statuesque blonde prison warden gets them involved in prostitution and on screen shower scenes.

They are all innocent.

Strange Famous · 05-04-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dlish

id hate to dig up buried bones, but...

SF,

a minor offence?? you think drug trafficking is a minor offence?

no no no no...chris brown did a 'minor offence' compared to this! and you wanted to send him in for a quarter of his life.

For clarity...

I believe that smuggling a small amount of a Class A drug is less serious than a physically powerful and fit man smashing the head of a 110 lbs women into a car window, punching her, and choking her to the point that she loses consciousness... yes. I think that this is a rational and humane perspective.

Baraka_Guru · 05-04-2009, 08:53 AM

For clarity: 1.5 lbs. isn't "a small amount." She could face life imprisonment for that in Britain.

EDIT: this is a value of up to $130,000.

EDIT: My previous post on number of doses was way off (sorry for that). She was carrying enough to make up to 20,000 doses of heroin, based on a typical dose of 0.033 grams pure heroin cut with other materials.

Strange Famous · 05-04-2009, 09:28 AM

Half a kilo? She'd probably only get "possession" for that, it isnt enough to justify "possession with intent to supply"

Cynthetiq · 05-04-2009, 09:40 AM

So even when the person disregards something like this? I'm not sure that Laos has the same print on their embarkation cards, but Singapore has had it as their card for at least 20 years now. Thailand, Malaysia also have it on their embarkation cards. I believe Laos would have it as well being in the Golden Triangle.

I believe that countries should be able to do what they want to protect their borders and their people.

05-03-2009, 01:25 AM	#2 (permalink)
SSJTWIZTA Master Thief. Master Criminal. Masturbator. Location: Windiwana	i was watching this show "Locked up Abroad." i was half paying attention, but the story was of a british woman that tried to smuggle heroin i believe from some country in asia. she was caught, and the sentence was death. when she got caught the airport security guy actually looked at her, made a gun shape with his fingers and thumb, put it to his head, and made the "bang" motion, telling her this was her fate. she didnt get it, she got out some years later and finally went to college. __________________ First they came for the Jews and I did not speak out because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the communists and I did not speak out because I was not a communist. Then they came for the trade unionists and I did not speak out because I was not a trade unionist Then they came for me And there was no one left to speak out for me. -Pastor Martin Niemoller

05-03-2009, 02:35 AM	#3 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I mean, maybe a declaration of war is a bit over the top - but the UK is a G20 nation and we should be able to prevent our citizens being treated in this way by a country like Laos __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-03-2009, 06:55 AM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The execution of foreigners isn't an act of war. If you are convicted of a crime in a foreign nation--and if your government does nothing to extradite you and punish you locally--then you are subject to those laws. The United States has executed over 20 foreigners since 1988; and Saudi Arabia has executed over 200. Death Row Foreigners Worldwide There are over 124 active death sentences of foreigners in the United States. Foreign Nationals and the Death Penalty in the US \| Death Penalty Information Center __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-03-2009, 07:45 AM	#5 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	just because the UK is in the G20, doesnt make their claim for differential treatment any more plausable. you do the crime... i dont believe its an act of war. was she wrongly charged and convicted? and even so, it doesnt make it an act of war. if anyone could explain what constitutes an act of war anyways? __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-03-2009, 09:02 AM	#6 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Well we probably cant stop the United States executing a British citizen, since they are more powerful and richer than us. But we can stop Laos from doing so. If I was in power I would be making very clear to them behind the scenes that I would have some gunboats on the way if this woman is killed by their state. The killing of a 20 girl by a foriegn state is an act of aggression of the most deplorable nature. We invaded Afghanistan to depose the Taleban because of their human rights record against their own citizens, surely we ought to be able to defend one of our own with force if necessary? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-03-2009, 09:26 AM	#8 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	If this was a man there might even be an argument to say that we have to respect the laws of another nation state - but the basic laws of human decency surely forbid the gunning down of a 20 year old girl by the law? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-03-2009, 09:26 AM	#9 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	When you visit a foreign country, you're bound by the law of the land. Different cultures have different standards that underlie their law, and it's really on the traveler to be sensitive to that. Has a miscarriage of justice been done in this case? Probably. Act of war that warrants a military response? No.

05-03-2009, 09:37 AM	#11 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Quite simply, yes I believe if you are strong there are cases when it is justified to use that strength to protect your citizens. I believe that the fact we are more powerful than Laos means that we should bully and threaten them - to save the life of a 20 year old girl who is going to be shot down like a dog. And obviously the UK didnt lead the attack on Afghanistan, but we are fighting there. If it was about routing out the terrorists we'd be fighting in Pakistan... __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-03-2009, 10:03 AM	#13 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Of course gender is a part of the issue. This is not a hardened drug trafficker we are talking about, its a 20 year old girl. doesnt that mean anything to you? Yes, we should ask Laos nicely by all means, and even consider bribing them - but any discussion should take place clearly with a big club in our fist that is very visible to them. What is the point of being a (relatively) powerful nation if you are to stand by and watch a young girl from Britain be gunned down like an animal? ALL the means of the British state should be employed to protect the lives of British citizens. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-03-2009, 11:11 AM	#15 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I cant think of any 20 year old female drug barons Ive ever heard of. If she committed a crime, fair enough she should face jail time if found guilty - but there are allegations she has been raped in jail, she has mental health issues which the state are ignoring and even exploiting, she has not had fair access to the legal system to defend herself, and is facing a firing squad. Does anyone think that this is acceptable? Perhaps citizens of Laos have to accept these conditions, I feel sorry for them if they live under such a barbaric government: but I will not accept these conditions being imposed on a citizen of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. If this was your relation would you not want the state to take action? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-03-2009, 11:26 AM	#16 (permalink)
timalkin Addict Location: watching from the treeline	.. __________________ Trinity: "What do you need?" Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns." -The Matrix Last edited by timalkin; 12-20-2010 at 07:21 PM..

05-03-2009, 11:56 AM	#19 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I am more than happy for to extradited to the UK and face our justice system. I understand legally that a woman's life is not worth more than a man's life... and that the unborn child you will be shot too is not worth more or less than any other innocent life taken - but as a human being surely you must feel as I do that to execute a pregnant woman is barbaric beyond rational comprehension? __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-03-2009, 12:14 PM	#20 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	SF, I don't think anyone would easily disagree with you on the issue of whether this is a fair punishment for a drug crime, especially considering she's pregnant. But many of us know the cost of war--the majority of the tab is usually picked up by the completely innocent. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

05-03-2009, 01:48 PM	#21 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	I'm sorry, but if she smuggled drugs in a country where the penalty for doing so is death, then what's the problem? If some Englishman went to Texas and committed serial homicide, he would likely face the death penalty as well. And it is entirely the right of the state to enforce it's laws...If you are not willing to abide by them, don't travel to that country and commit crimes. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

05-03-2009, 02:01 PM	#22 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	I think the problems isn't so much that a different country is imposing a different penalty for a crime; it's that it's doing so without anything resembling due process. I mean, how would you like it if you were visiting Laos, and then were all of a sudden thrown into jail, and a few months later were told a court had found you guilty? Even minus the rape and abuse, it sucks. If there was something resembling due process, I wouldn't complain, but since it doesn't look like she got anything resembling a fair trial, I agree that Britain ought to apply the diplomatic thumbscrews. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

05-03-2009, 02:17 PM	#23 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so wait. from what i gather, the trial hasn't happened yet--it's scheduled to happen in the next day or two. there are appearances of procedural problems, but its hard to say from what i am reading on this whether that amounts to saying that the laotian system isnt like the british. there's another question concerning capital punlshment given the uk's rejection of this barbaric action--this leads to human rights problems in principle---but what forum is there that this sort of question can be heard in? at this level, then, we have yet another example of the stupidity of nation-states of the equation of sovereignty with nation-states. there's a terrible reputation associated with the prison she's been held in but it isn't obvious that she's been treated badly simply because there's apparently been no contact from her until quite recently. so it isn't yet obvious what's going to happen--at least that's the impression i have gathered from reading around on this situation. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-03-2009, 07:28 PM	#24 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	SF your reasonngs give way for anarchy within the laos system. imagine the laos nationals thinking that had they commited the same crime, they'd be dead, but because she was a young uk national, she'd get away with it. it wouldnt go down well. we had a similar case a few years ago in bali - indonesia for smuggling marijuana - schapelle corby. a young good looking aussie surfer girl who the media supported for only 1 reason. because she was good looking. it didnt matter that she was guilty. no. fuck the rule of the land in other countries, she should be set free. she got what she deserved - 20 years. she was lucky she didnt get death. do i have any remorse? not really. she knew what she was doing. do i have any remorse for this one? only if she doesnt get a fair trail. im still thinking that this is the stupidist idea to go to war since ...well ..since we went to war for oil. at least with oil its helping the economy... in this case your putting a potential drug dealer back on your streets. if i had kids id be very afraid if you decided to take gordon browns job __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-03-2009, 09:27 PM	#25 (permalink)
Xerxys Junkie Location: My head.	No really, if she smuggled drugs, into a VERY VERY VERY unstable area like south east Asia, a country such as Indonesia, Thailand ... Laos even. What did she expect? Huh, I take that back, she wasn't counting on getting caught. Rule number two of life ... The Law is the Law, and the law is always right.

05-03-2009, 10:11 PM	#26 (permalink)
spindles Mine is an evil laugh Location: Sydney, Australia	basically what dlish said - the corby case was heavily played out in the media here. Anyone willing to scratch the surface came to a fairly quick 'the media is full of crap' conclusion. Just because a story appears in a newspaper does not make it the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. __________________ who hid my keyboard's PANIC button?

05-04-2009, 05:33 AM	#27 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I can't get past the concept that it's somehow proper to declare war and put soldiers into harm's way because of a single citizen who might have done wrong. Regardless of whether she did or didn't or how corrupt or not the Laotian government is, how is all-out war (since war by half-measure is a recipe for failure) even an option? __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

05-04-2009, 05:47 AM	#28 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	I said that a declaration of war was over the top. Strategic bombing of a few selected government buildings should be sufficient. And if Laos has any intelligence it needn't come to that at all - but I say again a nation should not stand by feebly while a vulnerable, helpless young girl is facing the possibility of a firing squad. In the real world, full out war is not going to happen. Diplomatic channels should be tried first, and if they dont work then the presence of a couple of gunboats should pursuade Laos that the rights of British citizens cannot be abused by their tinpot govt in this way. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-04-2009, 05:51 AM	#29 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there's really no redress for this kind of situation so long as nation-states hold sovereignty--that is so long as there are no trans or extra-national legal institutions. even then, there's be problems. what's strange about this really is the extent to which it devolves onto a dick thing--it is somehow "wrong" that a citizen of a former colonial power should be treated badly by one of these "lesser" countries--you know, with the "tinpot" legal systems and all that. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-04-2009, 06:31 AM	#32 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	You cannot put a price on our soverignty. I am not proposing to kill any citizens of Laos: if the government of Laos does push the situation to a confrontation that is a decision they made. If I was in power I would not be asking for regime change, or their oil, or their territory...I would be demanding that internationally recognised standards of human rights are observed in regard to a citizen of the UK. I am not saying she shouldnt be punished because she is pretty (if you look up pictures of her she isnt especially) - I am saying that if I was in power I would not stand by and watch a British citizen, who is a 20 year pregnant woman with a history of mental illness, be shot like a animal on the basis of an allegation in regards to a minor offense which does not involve violence in any way. If she is a drug smuggler she should face consequences for her actions: but Laos is a member of the community of nations and they must fulfill their obligation to not violate basic human rights of foriegn citizens. Of course a peaceful resolution is preferable, and whatever is being said in public we should in private be working towards this. But (again if I was in power) I would be making it very clear that the judicial murder of a British citizen would not be tolerated under any conditions and that there would be consequences to this which would be disasterous for Laos. __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-04-2009, 06:51 AM	#33 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i spent a few minutes again cruising around the hall of mirrors that is net-infotainment on this---you know how it is, the same wire-service articles appear in a million places, each time announced as if there's something particular about this iteration of the same wire-service article... anyway: it appears that the trial has been pushed back for a few days at least; laotian information ministry people are due in london on the 7th to see if there's a way out of this. information is obviously sketchy at this point from non-wire service sources, which is an interesting little window onto the lack of transparency about information on the net. but i digress. at the same time, 650g of heroin is a pound and a half. while not an epic number, it isn't exactly trivial. in the states, she'd be facing 5-10 years manditory minimum for that amount. and it appears that rules regarding searches in border areas are a little funny---alot of the rules that one would expect to hold inside a national boundary don't quite at border checkpoints. strange. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

05-04-2009, 07:45 AM	#34 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	id hate to dig up buried bones, but... SF, a minor offence?? you think drug trafficking is a minor offence? no no no no...chris brown did a 'minor offence' compared to this! and you wanted to send him in for a quarter of his life. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

05-04-2009, 08:04 AM	#35 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	She was carrying enough for many doses of heroin. Regardless, considering the situation, I'd like to see her extradited to Britain, where she should face criminal charges under British law. If she's guilty, it's really unfortunate because I'm assuming it'll mean her child will become a ward of the state. Unless I'm mistaken, under British law, the maximum penalty for trafficking heroin is life imprisonment and a hefty fine. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 05-04-2009 at 09:04 AM.. Reason: dosage math was wrong.

05-04-2009, 08:40 AM	#36 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	C'mon guys, haven't you seen Chained Heat 2? You know the only way these nubile, troubled young women get into trouble is because some ne'er do well places drugs in their purse after they fall alseep on on the Nurrgegaardem train system, then a statuesque blonde prison warden gets them involved in prostitution and on screen shower scenes. They are all innocent. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

05-04-2009, 08:53 AM	#38 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	For clarity: 1.5 lbs. isn't "a small amount." She could face life imprisonment for that in Britain. EDIT: this is a value of up to $130,000. EDIT: My previous post on number of doses was way off (sorry for that). She was carrying enough to make up to 20,000 doses of heroin, based on a typical dose of 0.033 grams pure heroin cut with other materials. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 05-04-2009 at 09:13 AM..

05-04-2009, 09:28 AM	#39 (permalink)
Strange Famous follower of the child's crusade?	Half a kilo? She'd probably only get "possession" for that, it isnt enough to justify "possession with intent to supply" __________________ "Do not tell lies, and do not do what you hate, for all things are plain in the sight of Heaven. For nothing hidden will not become manifest, and nothing covered will remain without being uncovered." The Gospel of Thomas

05-04-2009, 09:40 AM	#40 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	So even when the person disregards something like this? I'm not sure that Laos has the same print on their embarkation cards, but Singapore has had it as their card for at least 20 years now. Thailand, Malaysia also have it on their embarkation cards. I believe Laos would have it as well being in the Golden Triangle. I believe that countries should be able to do what they want to protect their borders and their people. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!