An ongoing atrocity: yet another victim of the Global War on Terror - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Baraka_Guru · 04-05-2009, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Canadian can't come home, Cannon says
In last-minute reversal, Ottawa says citizen stranded in Sudan poses too great a national security risk

PAUL KORING
April 4, 2009

Abousfian Abdelrazik, a Canadian citizen, poses so grave a threat to Canada that he can't come back, Foreign Minister Lawrence Cannon said yesterday, abruptly reversing the government's written promise of an emergency one-way travel document less than two hours before his flight home was to depart from Khartoum.

"I denied Mr. Abdelrazik an emergency passport on the basis of national security," Mr. Cannon said at the NATO summit in Strasbourg.

"He was crushed by the decision, he is incredulous; ... he thinks it is surreal," said Yavar Hameed, the Ottawa lawyer representing Mr. Abdelrazik, who spent nearly two years in Sudanese prisons.

Canadian government documents, marked secret, implicate Canadian security agencies in Mr. Abdelrazik's original arrest. Canada's antiterrorism agency and the RCMP have both subsequently cleared Mr. Abdelrazik.

"The only plausible explanation is that the decision was taken at the highest political levels," Mr. Hameed said. "They will do anything to keep him from coming home and telling his story."

Mr. Abdelrazik was to reach Canada today, after more than six years of imprisonment and forced exile in Sudan, on a ticket purchased by hundreds of supporters who defied the government's threat to charge anyone with helping him because he was put on a United Nations terrorist blacklist by the Bush administration.

Instead, two hours before his flight was to depart, government lawyers faxed a one-sentence letter to his lawyers in Ottawa, saying he had been deemed a national security risk and refused travel documents.

The reversal by the government - which previously promised, in writing, to issue Mr. Abdelrazik a one-way, emergency passport to return home if he had a fully paid ticket - adds yet another dimension to the long-running and increasingly Kafkaesque labyrinth that Mr. Abdelrazik must walk.

"For this guy they are making it up as they go along. ... Parliament did not give the minister the right to do this," said law professor and human-rights advocate Amir Attaran.

In fact, the passport order seems intended to allow the government to deny a citizen a passport - and therefore the government's blessing to travel abroad if he is deemed a security threat - rather than as a means to deny a citizen the right, enshrined in the Charter, to return to Canada.

"The government is now in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms," Liberal MP Irwin Cotler said.

"For six years I have tried to go back home to my children, but the Canadian government took my old passport and will not give me another one," Mr. Abdelrazik said in a statement released as the hours ticked down to his flight home.

Government documents, marked secret, implicate Canadian security agencies in the original arrest of Mr. Abdelrazik in 2003. In prison, he says, he was beaten and tortured. He was also interrogated by a team of CSIS agents and U.S. counterterrorism agents.

"The Harper government says I am an Islamic extremist. This is a lie. I am a Muslim and I pray to my God but this does not make me a terrorist or a criminal," Mr. Abdelrazik said.

Designating Mr. Abdelrazik a national security risk - which, in effect, maroons him in exile - represents a striking change in government policy. Only 15 months ago, Mr. Cannon's predecessor formally applied to the UN Security Council to remove Mr. Abdelrazik from its terrorist blacklist.

That formal delisting request, in December of 2007, was made only after both the RCMP and the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, informed the minister - in writing - that there was no reason to oppose Mr. Abdelrazik's removal from the so-called 1267 list. He had been added to the list by the Bush administration in 2006.

Mr. Abdelrazik has been living inside the Canadian embassy for the past 11 months - granted "temporary safe haven" by the government, which accepted that he was at risk of re-imprisonment.

"He's literally stuck in limbo," Mr. Hameed said.

Government officials rejected suggestions that Mr. Abdelrazik was under de facto house arrest.

"Mr. Abdelrazik has always been free to leave the embassy," said Daniel Barbarie, a Foreign Affairs spokesman, adding that it was Mr. Abdelrazik's choice to seek haven there.

NDP MP Paul Dewar said the "government can't have it both ways, they can't say he is a threat to national security and still harbour him in the embassy."

Less than four months ago, the government promised Mr. Abdelrazik a one-way travel document if he could get a fully paid flight home on an airline willing to defy the U.S. no-fly ban.

"In order to facilitate Mr. Abdelrazik's return to Canada, Passport Canada will issue an emergency passport to Mr. Abdelrazik upon his submission of a confirmed and paid travel itinerary," Lu Fernandes, director general of the passport agency's security bureau, promised in a Dec. 23, 2008, letter. But last week, Mr. Cannon added a new - and seemingly impossible - condition.

When more than 160 Canadians chipped in to buy the ticket and Etihad Airlines agreed to fly him, Mr. Cannon raised the bar last week, saying Mr. Abdelrazik needed to get himself off the 1267 blacklist, even though the government itself had tried and failed.

"It's up to him, its incumbent on him to make sure he gets off that list," Mr. Cannon said, referring to the UN Security Council terrorist blacklist, notwithstanding the specific UN exemption that permits those on the list to return home.

"What has changed now is that [Mr. Cannon] can't blame this on anyone else - not the United States nor the United Nations. Now the Harper government has to explain to all of us the basis for denying Mr. Abdelrazik the right to return home," Mr. Dewar said.

globeandmail.com: Canadian can't come home, Cannon says

Here is a summary of facts:

Abousfian Abdelrazik, a Sudanese-born Canadian citizen, went to Sudan to visit is ailing mother.
He was placed on the U.S. no-fly list, a tool of the Global War on Terror (GWOT).
He was arrested and tortured by the Sudanese government, but has not been charged with anything.
The U.N. and Canada had both declined to aid Abdelrazik, mainly because of the U.S. position.
After nearly 7 years of forced exile and imprisonment (2 years), Abdelrazik has subsequently been cleared by both Canada's antiterrorism agency and the RCMP (Canada's national police force).
It was up to Abdelrazik to come up with a plane ticket home before Canada would issue him a passport, except he had been living destitute as a refugee in the lobby of the Canadian embassy in Sudan for a few years.
A group of Canadians had raised the money to buy him a ticket; and they even found an airline willing to defy the U.S. no-fly restriction--Etihad Airlines.
But now the Canadian government has refused him an emergency passport, due to the security risk. It's now up to him to get himself off the U.S. no-fly list, even though the government has already failed to do so.
Abdelrazik is separated from his children, who live in Montreal, Quebec.

I think this situation is absolutely abhorrent.

Here we have man who was once accused but has subsequently been cleared, and is now being essentially abandoned by the government who is responsible for him.

Here, too, we have the bullshit that has come out of the GWOT. America's refusal to remove him from the no-fly list has stranded Abdelrazik in a country that would sooner incarcerate and torture him than do anything to help him return to Canada.

I think two things should be done here: 1) The U.S. needs to take on this case as a matter of international relations. They need to review the reports of Canada's antiterror agency and the RCMP and be sure they're on the same page. If they've already done this, they need to reopen the case for an appeal, because Abdelrazik isn't going anywhere despite others allowing him to. 2) The Canadian government needs to raise the profile of this case. It is a terrible precedent to encourage. He is a Canadian citizen and should be treated as such. It is well in his rights to return home if he has been cleared to do so. That he is on the U.S. no-fly list is no excuse. I seriously think the Canadian government should defy this bullshit.

What do you think?
Who is responsible for what here?
Is this racism?
Do you think the Canadian government is in violation of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms?
Should Obama reconfigure antiterrorism laws and the conditions of the no-fly list?
Does anyone know how hard it is to get off the U.S. no-fly list? Is it even possible?
What do you see happening down the road in the GWOT when it comes to its victims in cases such as these?

dksuddeth · 04-05-2009, 09:06 AM

so a canadian citizen went to his country of origin to visit a relative and now the canadian government will not fly him back home or give him a passport to fly home because the US said not to? Is Canada not its own sovereign nation anymore? or is this just another issue that people want to use to blame old Bush foreign policy on and force Obama to capitulate further that we just suck ass?

Baraka_Guru · 04-05-2009, 09:15 AM

dk, pretty much. I think Canada's decision was a purely political one. I don't want to think about it, but I'm willing to believe this has a lot to do with what is going on politically in Afghanistan. The Canadian government wants to stay on good terms with the U.S. in hopes that they will bolster their pretense there. To defy the no-fly list is to defy the U.S. "integrity" on the GWOT. And since Afghanistan is pretty much the front, why would Canada choose to defy it now?

I think this has little to do with Bush vs. Obama, as the Canadian government doesn't seem to play games like that. The Tories are too serious and stuffy for that.

And I'm not sure the Canadian government is concerned about sovereignty in this issue either. There's Omar Khadr as well. When we think of sovereignty these days, we think of kick-ass icebreakers in the north in addition to taking a leading role in Afghanistan. I think Canada is more concerned about playing politics with the U.S. when it comes to the GWOT, and I think it's a mistake in some respects.

The other issue is what will happen when (or if) this guy gets home from Sudan. The media fallout could be devastating to the Tories.

It's hard to tell what they're thinking.

Bill O'Rights · 04-06-2009, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru;2619659[*

He was placed on the U.S. no-fly list, a tool of the Global War on Terror (GWOT).

Why? I'm sure there was a reason? I hope.

Baraka_Guru · 04-06-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Why? I'm sure there was a reason? I hope.

He was suspected of having ties to al-Qaeda, and so was placed on the no-fly list, plus the UN has him blacklisted for being a supporter, even though no nation has any charges or warrants against him.

I don't know about the evidence they may have had. All I know is they aren't doing anything about it either way.

The bottom line is that he's been cleared by two agencies, and now he's in limbo.

Bill O'Rights · 04-06-2009, 12:17 PM

If this is a case of his brother's wife's uncle used a barber who went to a bakery that bought it's flour from a company that had it's delivery trucks oil changed at the same Jiffy Lube that once changed the oil in Nawaf al-Hazmi's car then I see a huge problem. If he has been cleard by Canada's antiterror agency and the RCMP, is that information being forwarded to the appropriate U.S. authorities? If so, and assuming that the information is viable, then I agree with you 100%. But, I have to assume that there is more to this.

dippin · 04-06-2009, 12:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

But, I have to assume that there is more to this.

Well, the fact that the man is a pretty compelling witness to the fact that the US, Canada and so on actually tortured people, especially at a time when bringing charges against those who were complicit in the torture is being discussed, is a huge part of the "more" that there is to this.

Bill O'Rights · 04-06-2009, 12:40 PM

Wasn't he tortured by the Sudanese?

dippin · 04-06-2009, 12:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

Wasn't he tortured by the Sudanese?

The extraordinary renditions program is one of the things that is under debate currently.

dksuddeth · 04-06-2009, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

The extraordinary renditions program is one of the things that is under debate currently.

The question wasn't 'was he tortured IN Sudan', it was 'wasn't he tortured BY the Sudanese'? context and specifics make all the difference here.

dippin · 04-06-2009, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dksuddeth

The question wasn't 'was he tortured IN Sudan', it was 'wasn't he tortured BY the Sudanese'? context and specifics make all the difference here.

Yes, and that question is unknown about the extraordinary renditions program. In this case, for example, there are questions as to whether American and Canadian intelligence were in the room as he was tortured, and their role.

dlish · 04-06-2009, 06:37 PM

dont have time to commit much to this conversation this morning because of work, but why is the canadian government so unwilling to do more for its citizens incarcerated in jails overseas because of bush's war on terror?

lets remember omar khadr, who is still lingering in guantanamo.

silent_jay · 04-07-2009, 07:14 AM

Maybe if he were white like Brenda Martin he'd be back on his home soil again, they didn't mind spending taxpayers money to fly her back here. The conservative government here is turning into more and more of an embarrassment, first George Galloway and the JDL complaint and subsequent ban on Galloway entering Canada, and Omar Khadr as well being abandoned by the government now this.

Hopefully it makes decision time easier at the next election.

Baraka_Guru · 04-07-2009, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by silent_jay

Maybe if he were white like Brenda Martin he'd be back on his home soil again, they didn't mind spending taxpayers money to fly her back here. The conservative government here is turning into more and more of an embarrassment, first George Galloway and the JDL complaint and subsequent ban on Galloway entering Canada, and Omar Khadr as well being abandoned by the government now this.

Oh there's more. It looks like Harper is still trying to deport the U.S. war resisters and their families against the will of parliament and a good number of Canadians.

Sometimes I ask myself, "What would Chretien do?" I'd like to think, in these cases, he'd give the GWOT the political middle finger. Who knows? He didn't support either invasion of Iraq.

I'll come back to this later to address your question, dlish. It's a good one.

silent_jay · 04-07-2009, 08:16 AM

Oh how I miss Chretien. Got to love a PM who chokes out people who invade his personal space. Harper would have to ask the US what he should do before he did anything.

Baraka_Guru · 06-12-2009, 12:34 PM

A man's life hangs in the balance as the Canadian government considers whether it will appeal a court decision ordering the return of Abdelrazik. He holds in his hand a supporter-purchased plane ticket he could use today to return home to Montreal and his family.

Quote:

Montreal man still in Sudan, unable to use plane ticket
Last Updated: Friday, June 12, 2009 | 3:58 PM ET
CBC News

A Montreal man remains in the Canadian Embassy in Sudan, holding a plane ticket with Friday's date on it, but lacking the travel documents he needs to return to Canada.

Abousfian Abdelrazik's supporters purchased the ticket for him on May 27, eight days before a Federal Court judge ordered the federal government to allow him to return, ruling his charter rights have been breached.

Abdelrazik, 47, was arrested and detained as an al-Qaeda suspect while visiting his mother in Sudan in 2003 and for the past year has been living in the embassy in Khartoum.

Both the RCMP and Canadian Security Intelligence Service have cleared Abdelrazik of any terrorist connections, but the Conservative government refuses to issue him travel documents to return home, because his name was added to a UN Security Council list banning travel for terrorist suspects.

On June 4, Judge Russell Zinn ordered the government to facilitate Abdelrazik's return within 30 days.

Yavar Hameed, the stranded man's lawyer, said he doesn't understand why the government didn't avail itself of the paid airplane ticket, which would have seen Abdelrazik arrive in Toronto on Saturday.

In an interview with CBC News, Hameed said the uncertainty over when, or if, his client will be allowed to return to Canada is taking its toll.

"On June 4th, he was on top of the world. That lasted for a couple of hours, because then reality set in," Hameed said.

"The fact remains is that he's still in the embassy. Until he gets word from consular affairs that he's going out on a plane, everything else is just sort of this ethereal hope," he said.

Hameed said he hopes the government does not appeal the Federal Court decision.

"I'm hopeful that the federal government does not take us down that path, because we're talking about a man's life, and it's not a legal game," he said.

"It's not something that's, you know, to be a venue for advancing the law or some clarification of the facts. Let's just bring him home," he said.

In response to a call from CBC News Friday, the office of Foreign Affairs Minister Lawrence Cannon said: "The government is reviewing the federal court decision and is unable to comment further at this time."

Charlatan · 06-12-2009, 03:50 PM

Not a proud moment for Canada.

If there is some reason to believe that he is too dangerous to return to Canada, why not state what these reasons are. This doesn't smell right.

The no fly list has been show in the past to fallible. Why the reliance on it now?

Slims · 06-12-2009, 04:26 PM

It's only rendition if someone is nabbed in one country and taken to another.

This guy was captured in Sudan by the Sudanese.

How are we responsible? If he was put on the no-fly list it was for a good reason...'suspicion' means more than 'I didn't like the guy.' It is more along the lines of "We watched him meet with several high level Al Qaeda commanders and then agree to conduct attacks when he returned home."

filtherton · 06-12-2009, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slims

If he was put on the no-fly list it was for a good reason...'suspicion' means more than 'I didn't like the guy.' It is more along the lines of "We watched him meet with several high level Al Qaeda commanders and then agree to conduct attacks when he returned home."

And you know this how?

Charlatan · 06-12-2009, 08:14 PM

Errors on the no-fly list

No-fly list ensnares innocent travelers

filtherton · 06-12-2009, 08:38 PM

Government errors in my vagina?

Slims · 06-12-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Errors on the no-fly list

No-fly list ensnares innocent travelers

Your example is of people who were never put on the no fly list being confused with real terrorists who were due to similar phonetic spellings of their names.

As far as I know, this guy has never indicated he was put on the list 'accidentally' or that he is being confused with someone else. He just wants to be taken off.

Baraka_Guru · 06-12-2009, 09:21 PM

The Sudanese government had cleared him after a number of investigations.

The U.S. put him on the list. (Merely because of the charges...that is the "good" reason.)

Canada doesn't want to go through the process of having him removed.

This is a political issue. It is our responsibility, as he is a Canadian citizen. The problem here is that the Harper government is leaving full responsibility on him, but he is virtually powerless.

He is being abandoned despite otherwise having the means to return home.

Regardless, he should be returned to his nation of citizenship.

YaWhateva · 06-13-2009, 12:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slims

How are we responsible? If he was put on the no-fly list it was for a good reason...'suspicion' means more than 'I didn't like the guy.' It is more along the lines of "We watched him meet with several high level Al Qaeda commanders and then agree to conduct attacks when he returned home."

ugh, that is such a load of crap. that's insanely ridiculous. how in the hell can you prove any of that?

Shauk · 06-13-2009, 09:38 AM

if you ask me, terrorism has achieved it's goal admirably. It has us all looking at eachother distrustfully at the government level, everyone is a suspect, trust no one, omg, zomg, eep!

*sigh* I hate to quote bush as saying ANYTHING worth taking to heart, but he was right when he said we should just continue to act as we always have in defiance of the act of terrorism, and not be changed by it.

but holy shit, 8 years later and we still act like every little potential threat is the boogeyman. Let the guy go home, for the love of sanity.

nevermind, the terrorists HAVE won.

silent_jay · 06-18-2009, 02:34 PM

Seems the government is finally going to do the right thing, and let the man come back to his home, it's about time Harper...

Quote:

Ottawa will allow Abdelrazik to return to Canada

The federal government will comply with a Federal Court order to allow the return of Montrealer Abousfian Abdelrazik, who has been stranded in Sudan for six years after being labelled an al-Qaeda suspect, Justice Minister Rob Nicholson said Thursday.
A travel date for Abousfian Abdelrazik is not yet known.A travel date for Abousfian Abdelrazik is not yet known.

Abdelrazik, 47, was arrested and detained while visiting his mother in Sudan in 2003 and for the last year has been living in the Canadian Embassy in Khartoum.

Earlier this month, Federal Court Justice Russell Zinn ordered the Canadian government to fly him home early next month and provide those travel plans by Friday.

Nicholson initially said the government would need time to review Zinn's decision before deciding whether it would appeal, despite intense calls from opposition members and Abdelrazik's supporters to allow him to return.

But in his response to a question Thursday from Liberal MP Irwin Cotler in the House of Commons about the status of Abdelrazik, Nicholson said, "The government will comply with the court order."

A spokeswoman for the Foreign Affairs department said it had nothing to add to Nicholson's statement.

No date set yet for return: lawyer

Following Nicholson's announcement, Abdelrazik's lawyer, Khalid Elgazzar, told CBC News his legal team has received written confirmation from the government that Abdelrazik will return to Canada, but could not immediately disclose a travel date.

"They've given us an initial indication as to a commitment to bring him back, and I guess the logistical factors are how that's going to happen," he said in an interview from Ottawa.

Elgazzar said he contacted Abdelrazik to inform him of the government's decision and his client "had some difficulty containing his happiness."

Both the RCMP and Canadian Security Intelligence Service have cleared Abdelrazik of any terrorist connections, but the Conservative government had refused to issue him travel documents to return home because his name was on a UN Security Council list banning travel for terrorist suspects.

Rae urges Tories to accept court's Khadr decision

His lawyers successfully argued the government has violated his right to mobility under Section 6 of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

In his decision, Zinn wrote that Abdelrazik is a "prisoner in a foreign land" and "as much a victim of international terrorism as the innocent persons whose lives have been taken by recent barbaric acts of terrorists."

The judge said the government's claim that Abdelrazik couldn't fly to Canada due to his inclusion on the UN blacklist was actually "no impediment" to his repatriation.

Zinn also said CSIS was "complicit" in Abdelrazik's detention by Sudanese authorities six years ago.

Liberal foreign affairs critic Bob Rae said the government's decision also raises the question of why the Conservatives are not abiding another Federal Court decision calling on Ottawa to press for the return of Omar Khadr, the last Western citizen imprisoned at the U.S. detention centre in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

"The judge's decision in Abdelrazik was very clear, but I would add that the judge's decision in Mr. Khadr's case is very clear as well, and I would hope that the government would now turn and accept the decision in Mr. Khadr's case," Rae said Thursday.

The government announced in May it was appealing the court's ruling on the Toronto-born Khadr's case.

Khadr, now 22, has been at the Guantanamo Bay facility since 2002 when he was picked up by U.S. soldiers in Afghanistan. He's alleged to have thrown a grenade that killed an American soldier during a battle.

Ottawa will allow Abdelrazik to return to Canada

Now we wait and see how long it takes the Tories to do the right thing with Omar Khadr.

Baraka_Guru · 06-26-2009, 07:49 AM

Let's hope there aren't any troublesome stopovers. It's good to know he's finally left the embassy at least.

Quote:

Abdelrazik boards plane in Sudan

A Canadian citizen accused by the United Nations of being linked to al Qaeda flew out of Sudan today after a court order ended his six-year exile in Khartoum, his lawyers said.

Abousfian Abdelrazik, born in Sudan, has spent the past year taking refuge in Canada's embassy in Khartoum, fearing arrest over his suspected links to militants. The federal government had until recently refused to offer assistance or issue a passport to Mr. Abdelrazik, 46, who is on a UN no-fly list naming him as an al Qaeda associate.

But a Federal Court judge ruled on June 4 that Ottawa had to arrange Mr. Abdelrazik's return, a decision seen as a blow to the Canadian government's security policies. “It will be a huge relief when we get to Canada. I can't rest until that happens,” said Mr. Abdelrazik's lawyer Yavar Hameed, speaking in Khartoum before the plane left.

Mr. Hameed said no one had produced evidence to back up the UN allegations against Mr. Abdelrazik.

He added he had been concerned governments, including Washington, might to try to detain the suspect en route. “But Canada's department of foreign affairs have indicated to us they have taken all necessary precautions,” he said.

Mr. Abdelrazik posed for photographs at Khartoum airport, but declined to give a statement ahead of his arrival in Canada.

Mr. Abdelrazik was born in Sudan and gained Canadian citizenship in 1995 after entering the country as a refugee. He returned to Sudan in 2003 to visit his sick mother and was arrested and held by Sudanese authorities on two occasions.

Mr. Abdelrazik was freed in 2006 and has been living in the Canadian embassy in central Khartoum since late April, 2008. He has denied being a militant.

Canadian Federal Court Judge Russel Zinn this month ruled Canada's refusal to assist Mr. Abdelrazik was a breach of the country's Charter of Rights and Freedoms, which says no Canadian can be deprived of the right to life, liberty and security.

Abdelrazik boards plane in Sudan - The Globe and Mail

04-05-2009, 09:06 AM	#2 (permalink)
dksuddeth Junkie Location: bedford, tx	so a canadian citizen went to his country of origin to visit a relative and now the canadian government will not fly him back home or give him a passport to fly home because the US said not to? Is Canada not its own sovereign nation anymore? or is this just another issue that people want to use to blame old Bush foreign policy on and force Obama to capitulate further that we just suck ass? __________________ "no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

04-05-2009, 09:15 AM	#3 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	dk, pretty much. I think Canada's decision was a purely political one. I don't want to think about it, but I'm willing to believe this has a lot to do with what is going on politically in Afghanistan. The Canadian government wants to stay on good terms with the U.S. in hopes that they will bolster their pretense there. To defy the no-fly list is to defy the U.S. "integrity" on the GWOT. And since Afghanistan is pretty much the front, why would Canada choose to defy it now? I think this has little to do with Bush vs. Obama, as the Canadian government doesn't seem to play games like that. The Tories are too serious and stuffy for that. And I'm not sure the Canadian government is concerned about sovereignty in this issue either. There's Omar Khadr as well. When we think of sovereignty these days, we think of kick-ass icebreakers in the north in addition to taking a leading role in Afghanistan. I think Canada is more concerned about playing politics with the U.S. when it comes to the GWOT, and I think it's a mistake in some respects. The other issue is what will happen when (or if) this guy gets home from Sudan. The media fallout could be devastating to the Tories. It's hard to tell what they're thinking. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

04-06-2009, 12:17 PM	#6 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	If this is a case of his brother's wife's uncle used a barber who went to a bakery that bought it's flour from a company that had it's delivery trucks oil changed at the same Jiffy Lube that once changed the oil in Nawaf al-Hazmi's car then I see a huge problem. If he has been cleard by Canada's antiterror agency and the RCMP, is that information being forwarded to the appropriate U.S. authorities? If so, and assuming that the information is viable, then I agree with you 100%. But, I have to assume that there is more to this. __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

04-06-2009, 12:40 PM	#8 (permalink)
Bill O'Rights will always be an Alyson Hanniganite Location: In the dust of the archives	Wasn't he tortured by the Sudanese? __________________ "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony "Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

04-06-2009, 06:37 PM	#12 (permalink)
dlish Currently sour but formerly Dlishs Super Moderator Location: Australia/UAE	dont have time to commit much to this conversation this morning because of work, but why is the canadian government so unwilling to do more for its citizens incarcerated in jails overseas because of bush's war on terror? lets remember omar khadr, who is still lingering in guantanamo. __________________ An injustice anywhere, is an injustice everywhere I always sign my facebook comments with ()()===========(}. Does that make me gay? - Filthy

04-07-2009, 07:14 AM	#13 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Maybe if he were white like Brenda Martin he'd be back on his home soil again, they didn't mind spending taxpayers money to fly her back here. The conservative government here is turning into more and more of an embarrassment, first George Galloway and the JDL complaint and subsequent ban on Galloway entering Canada, and Omar Khadr as well being abandoned by the government now this. Hopefully it makes decision time easier at the next election. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

04-07-2009, 08:16 AM	#15 (permalink)
silent_jay Her Jay Location: Ontario for now....	Oh how I miss Chretien. Got to love a PM who chokes out people who invade his personal space. Harper would have to ask the US what he should do before he did anything. __________________ Absence makes the heart grow fonder

06-12-2009, 03:50 PM	#17 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Not a proud moment for Canada. If there is some reason to believe that he is too dangerous to return to Canada, why not state what these reasons are. This doesn't smell right. The no fly list has been show in the past to fallible. Why the reliance on it now? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-12-2009, 04:26 PM	#18 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	It's only rendition if someone is nabbed in one country and taken to another. This guy was captured in Sudan by the Sudanese. How are we responsible? If he was put on the no-fly list it was for a good reason...'suspicion' means more than 'I didn't like the guy.' It is more along the lines of "We watched him meet with several high level Al Qaeda commanders and then agree to conduct attacks when he returned home." __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-12-2009, 08:14 PM	#20 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Errors on the no-fly list No-fly list ensnares innocent travelers __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-12-2009, 08:38 PM	#21 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	Government errors in my vagina?

06-12-2009, 09:21 PM	#23 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	The Sudanese government had cleared him after a number of investigations. The U.S. put him on the list. (Merely because of the charges...that is the "good" reason.) Canada doesn't want to go through the process of having him removed. This is a political issue. It is our responsibility, as he is a Canadian citizen. The problem here is that the Harper government is leaving full responsibility on him, but he is virtually powerless. He is being abandoned despite otherwise having the means to return home. Regardless, he should be returned to his nation of citizenship. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

06-13-2009, 09:38 AM	#25 (permalink)
Shauk Confused Adult Location: Spokane, WA	if you ask me, terrorism has achieved it's goal admirably. It has us all looking at eachother distrustfully at the government level, everyone is a suspect, trust no one, omg, zomg, eep! sigh I hate to quote bush as saying ANYTHING worth taking to heart, but he was right when he said we should just continue to act as we always have in defiance of the act of terrorism, and not be changed by it. but holy shit, 8 years later and we still act like every little potential threat is the boogeyman. Let the guy go home, for the love of sanity. nevermind, the terrorists HAVE won.