..

I'm guessing sarcasm needs to be banned now too. ;)

..

Interesting. Since this thread is more about the drug trade involved with marijuana's prohibition, I think you've made a great point. How many people were killed during Prohibition as a result of Prohibition itself? I think that's a more apt argument than the impaired driving argument.

I don't have the number of DWIs during prohibition, and luckily, since this is a pub discussion, as per the rules of the pub discussion, I don't have to research this. But for the sake of argument, I'm going to say 15,492.

After a few twix bars, I get a little nutty.

..

Yes, unnecessary deaths are always a good thing when something harmless is kept illegal.

It wouldn't be a price we'd be paying at all if marijuana were legalized. Have you looked into the history of its prohibition? It's quite an interesting story and has absolutely nothing to do with its perceived dangers. It was criminalized in 1937, I believe. Imagine how long it existed as an entirely legal substance up to that point. I wonder what happened around that time.

Any idea?

Really? So interesting, since George Washington was a hemp farmer and grew marijuana for his personal use. The same is said about Thomas Jefferson.

Authors William F. Buckley, Stephen King, and Carl Sagan can be added to that list.

Comedians Jon Stewart, George Carlin, Bill Maher, Jack Black, Rodney Dangerfield, Cheech Marin and Tommy Chong.

Not a single one of those persons was lazy or can be described by your stereotype.

As an ex pot smoker I did alot during my 20+ pot smoking years, never hurt a single individual and was always gainfully employed at a high salary.

legalize it already.

You're right, it's certainly more difficult. Still, individuals can't mass produce drugs like marijuana, cocaine, mushrooms, or acid. It is cheaper to mass produce and that leads to lower prices passed on to the consumer as well as quality control. My guess is that the same reason that factories won out during the industrial revolution would similarly lead to mass production winning out over the individual (for the most part) in this case.

Look at it this way: how many people grow their own food?

Do you realize you amuse me so?

Again, you are saying the same words. So, let me rephrase my words. I'll break it down so it is easier for you to comprehend.

1) Driving impaired means be hindered in some way to drive safely. This can be because you are:

a) intoxicated by some substance
b) unable to see clearly
c) receiving oral sex
d) talking on a cell phone
e) engaged in any other behavior that lowers your driving ability

2) I understand that you don't want anyone to harm you out of their stupidity or irresponsibility. Many people feel the same way. However, the legalization of marijuana really has nothing to do with this. Why do I say this? Because:

a) People will harm you whether intoxicated or not
b) If people are irresponsible, they are irresponsible

3) This is a bit new, but I'm throwing it in anyway to add some spice to our interchange. Perhaps, you should be a bit open-minded about this...just a bit, let a little draft in. I am terrified of guns, but I respect that people enjoy guns and feel safer with them around so I would never fight to have them made illegal. Guns are dangerous and used irresponsibly they kill people. Alcohol is legal and enjoyed by many people. Not everyone who gets drunk kills people through negligence. The same would go for pot. But the choice should be available. Pot was made illegal in quite a bogus way. Not because it was dangerous to partake in, but because there was a group of people who had a financial interest in seeing it made illegal.

..

You do realize that studies have found that marijuana users are, in fact, either just as likely or less likely to be in accidents as non-impaired people, right? (Well, those credible studies that actually take into account when the person involved hasn't been well over the legal BAC level, anyway.)

The bigger threat is cell phone use while driving. More than 4,500 people die and more than 330,000 are seriously injured due to accidents caused by cell phones every year.

---------- Post added at 08:31 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:28 PM ----------

FYI: at that time, marijuana was grown for its industrial value as hemp and as a soil stabilizer. I think you need to at least run a quick google search from now on before blasting out whatever random "facts" pop into your head so you don't keep ruining your arguments by proving yourself to be consistently wrong.

..

Remember, one may leave the pub to do a bit of research. Just paraphrase it and bring it back in your own words. I'd hate for your papers to get sloppy at the bar. Someone will always be here to carry on the conversation. Everyone needs a breather from time to time.

Sorry, carry on with the previous topic of discussion.

What the fuck does purpose have to with this?

..

my how you leap to conclusions so quickly. No one said that.... you said that all smokers of pot are lazy. See how broad stroked generalizations work?

I NEVER drove high once. Never drove drunk either. So how many did I endanger? ZERO.

In fact, I moved to a city where I could stand on the street and wave my hand an a yellow vehicle stops and picks me up and whisks me home, safe and sound. I can't speak for the driver, he's usually an Arab, so maybe he's a terrorist, you know the kind that blew up the WTC and Pentagon.... Oooh scary!!!!

Yeah, I figured you say that about the founding fathers, take some time to read about them. Learn your history. Jefferson was a slave owner too you know.... oooooh bad man!!!!!

Learn about Lincolnd, it is written that he had a medical condition and he enjoyed smoking indian hemp.

---------- Post added at 09:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:39 PM ----------

also, note that the law required that all land owners to grow hemp plants, X amount of plants per acre of land.

Take note during that time, land owners were the only people allowed to vote.

Gosh Golly!!!! Stoned voters!!!!

..

The wonderful thing about living in a supposedly free country is that you don't have to prove that something isn't dangerous to legalize it, you have prove it is harmful to ban it.

So, pray tell, in your daily routines is everything that you do beneficial?

..

Did anyone else have the thought that there might have been fewer DWIs during intoxication because perhaps there were fewer vehicles at that time than there are now? :rolleyes: Just curious.

Just FYI, if you haven't had one for awhile, a cigarette can make you majorly lightheaded and almost cause blackouts. I used to get vertigo if I tried a red (I smoked ultra lights) and more than once had to sit down or stop what I was doing for several minutes. I knew better than to do it while driving. Nicotine rushes are unpleasant and did impact the functioning of my brain on a frequent basis. And I do know that I'm not the only one.

I'm curious... How do you, TFP, define "Medical Usage" or "Medical Purposes"?
Does that include mental health? Because I know plenty of people with severe anxiety disorders, clinical depression and several other clinical diagnoses that use marijuana for treatment, despite the lack of prescription. For them, it worked better than being on numerous other psychotropic medications and they were a heck of a lot more functional after smoking pot than ingesting a xanax.
Most people agree that Marinol is doing wonders for chemo patients... but few realize that if you take more than the required dose, you can still get stoned. I'm taking the word of several teenage patients with Osteosarcoma who admitted to smoking weed prior to the rx of Marinol. So I can only go by their word. But, they still swear to it. And you can tell. :)

Well, I'm for legalization. In all forms and for all reasons, actually. There will always be people that abuse anything... we have to buy cold medicine from the pharmacist now and I got carded for buying spraypaint and rubber cement. Someone will always be stupid and do something under the influence of something that will make people gasp in horror and want to do away with that Thing. But it's a hell of a lot cheaper to legalize it if you look at decreasing amounts of insurance payouts for drugs of all kinds, decreasing the DEA salaries and war on drugs funding like several people noted, and decreasing the number of people that are taking up space in the jails and on probation lists for having just enough to qualify for "intent to sell."
Come on people now, smile on your brother, everybody gather 'round, try to love one another right now... :lol:

When you say that the ones that you know, and then generalize it to the general population, you are in effect saying EVERYONE.

You really need to find a better class of person to hang out with, I mean seriously, take a look at your friends, if you know that many pieces of shit.

As for this discussion, that's about all I have to say to you on this subject, kind of hard to have a discussion when only one side is willing to listen, and judging from your posts in this thread, you're not willing.

..

I am for legalization in some ways, then not in others.

I agree that some people may benefit from its use - for medical reasons. I also think that others will not benefit from it at all, on the contrary. I know plenty of people who are depressed and in a rut and the pot smoking doesn't help - it seems to make them more indulgent in their misery at times. Sure, some people smoke it and are fine.

One of my main reservations is that in teens, marijuana seems like a good way to come into contact with other, harder drugs. This doesn't mean that because they smoke pot, they will take other drugs. But it does increase the risk somewhat.

I have never smoked pot so I can't really say much on this topic. My 2 cents.

This made me chuckle, they'll come in contact with harder drugs, but they won't take them because they smoke pot, but it increases the risk they will take them........now that's what I call riding the fence on the gateway drug argument.:lol:

The gateway drug stuff only happens because the people selling the drugs are drug dealers who sell things like cocaine etc. If people aren't forced to go to a drug dealing looking to push something more hardcore and addictive, then they are less likely to move on to the hardcore drugs.

The gateway drug argument is an interesting one. Also the argument of peer pressure. Obviously, peer pressure exists as well as people who take a wide array of drugs, but putting all the blame on pot is another argument to cause fear.

When I was a teen, I was around pot for a few months before I actually smoked it. It was never pushed onto me and my friends were cool with the fact that I didn't partake. I started to smoke pot because i was curious about it and felt that I was ready. There was never any pressure though.

When I smoked pot, I never had an opportunity to partake in cocaine or heroin, I never saw those drugs. There was acid available, but I was actually told that I couldn't take it. Go figure out that one. People who take drugs who actually care about other people's well-being?

I'm for the legalization of all drugs. Decrease crime. Clear out prisons. Increase tax venue. I'm an extremist on it, and I'm ok with that. Punish people (and severely) who make bad choices when they use drugs. People can make their own choices about what they do to themselves. Legalizing it puts money back into the system, gives some level of quality control and allows people who have their drugs stolen to have legal recourse instead of going and shooting everyone.

People, writ large, don't agree with that, but whatever.

Pot, in particular, is less physically harmful than tobacco and alcohol and has a less severe psychological impact that being drunk. It's illegal because of simple racism. People seriously were worried that migrant workers would smoke it and wouldn't do work if they could and/or that native americans and blacks would smoke it and come assault nice white families. There are records on the books of numerous states to back that fact up. The ad campaigns against weed are just hilarious in their gross levels of misinformation.

Your arguments against legalizing marijuana, timalkin, are, frankly, dated and inconsistent. If you want to have an irrational fear of the drug, that's fine. Don't impose it on the rest of us.

I think it's called a gateway drug because people inclined to do "hard drugs" often start with MJ because it's much more available.
I've smoked pot for years, and haven't tried anything harder; To be honest, I know many people that smoke pot and are doing just fine, getting up in the morning, working many hours, preparing a successful career. As for myself, I wouldn't call myself successful, or happy with where I am in life, and might even be what tim refers to as an aimless, lazy asshole, or whatever, but it's not because of marijuana.

I've actually made a few important realizations about my life while on pot, which has helped me shift some things around for the better.
I think it's because it opens up the thought process a bit, and there can be more that comes up from the subconscious part of the mind, because thoughts seem to flow more uninhibited and uninterrupted while high. If I could describe my experience, it'd be like a monologue in your head, with some thoughts that are interesting, and some that are stupid (since the "filters" seem to be less present somehow). I realize how "typical stoner"-ish this last paragraph might sound, but you wouldn't really know if you haven't tried.
And just FYI, I'd never drive while high.

They had a huge ally in William Randolph Hearst who was more than happy to run fabricated stories of black men raping white women while crazed-out on this drug called Marijuana (back then, most people referred to it as cannabis. The Spanish name Marijuana hadn't caught on and wasn't widely known to be synonymous with cannabis).

But, why let a little truth get in the way of hyperbole and fear-mongering when it's so obvious that the idea that some people might actually enjoy getting high is reason enough to keep it illegal.

Is there a country with a similar government system to ours that has fully legalized drugs? I'm curious how they deal with it.



And as for my earlier comment (about pot not being harmless due to cartels)....yes, I know it's because it's illegal. I'm not a moron. My point was that for the past 20 years, most people I know who argued vehemently for pot always used the "pot is harmless" argument, and I'm just saying that under the current set of laws, it isn't.

Exactly. Legalize it and it will be harmless. And going based on the numbers in the Netherlands, their crime rate across the board is much lower in the world rankings than the US.

milk is a gateway drug. most junkies have had it.

and i think when chocolate first arrived in europe, like 16-17th century, people were getting fucked up drinking it.
look what happened to them.
just saying.

I was going to say that beer/wine was the gateway drug, from there it leads to scotch, vodka, rum, tequila, gin, whiskey, rye.....

However, those are made from grains, so would it be fair to say that breads are gateway drug? Of course, wine is made from grapes. Those brown bag lunches with peanut butter and grape jelly sandwiches are starting off elementary kids into the land of booze.

i maintain that it has to be milk that leads our youth astray, introducing by way of it's icky white viscousness them to temptations that lead straight down the pathway to perdition.

I blame cellular respiration, specifically the Krebs Cycle, for acting as a facilitator of all substance abuse.