04-14-2009, 04:08 PM | #201 (permalink) | |
Human
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Location: Chicago
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
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04-14-2009, 04:16 PM | #203 (permalink) |
Crazy, indeed
Location: the ether
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What's with the false equivalence bullshit? "moderates can go to protests they believe in, sponsored by MoveOn... and get all kinds of love?"
Where was this love. Don't start with platitudes. Where was this love? Which news organization helped fund raise for these organizations? Supported them to the degree fox news, Glen Beck, Rush and so on have supported the "tea parties?" And where are these people who worship Obama, who see him as a golden boy who can't do no wrong? Where? If this is all so prevalent, it shouldnt be too hard to find half a dozen examples in this thread alone. This siege you seem to believe to be under is entirely a fabrication of your mind. And yet you claim that anyone who is not ready to fall for a GOP sponsored event is brainwashed, obnoxious and snobbish. And that you are the one being attacked! Also, by how much, exactly, are your taxes going up under Obama? It just gets boring after a while reading the same crap without an ounce of substance and still be accused of being brainwashed. |
04-14-2009, 04:22 PM | #204 (permalink) | |
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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I agree with you. I also want to say that I'm 100% AGAINST issues like abortion and gay marriage being decided on a state-by-state basis, especially if they are being decided by popular vote. The idea that the majority of people voting about gay rights would not be gay, or that half (or more) of the people voting on abortion rights would be men just doesn't sit well with me. |
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04-14-2009, 04:29 PM | #205 (permalink) | |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Okay, I googled these protests and it looks like they only include official MoveOn members. This is a case of apples and oranges. Or are you a member of FreedomWorks? |
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04-14-2009, 04:47 PM | #206 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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move on was active in organizing the early protests against the war in iraq.
we all know how much love they got from the press. o yeah, those liberal heroes in the mainstream press stood right on up to bush administration, to conservative domination, to the foul and unnecessary war in iraq and the broader "war on terror" that made it possible. i was at alot of those protests and have a pretty good idea of just how much love there was. it was easy to see in the tiny paragraphs devoted to the demonstrations which covered the 20 people who'd show up to counterprotest at action which drew upward of a half million people as if they were operating on the same level. it was easy to see, just like translating those messages from the space alien overlords are if you peer real hard at baseball box scores is easy.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-14-2009, 04:58 PM | #207 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Indiana
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I never understand this. Why would someone in a liberal state want to force their beliefs on a state with more conservative values or vice versa? The federal government is basically supposed to protect sovereignty of the United States, issue currency, build postal roads, issue patents and a few other very limited powers. Currently they do much more than that and can't get what they are supposed to do correctly. I don't agree with states regulating smoking over local communities, but they should have the power over it instead of the federal government.
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It's time for the president to hand over his nobel peace prize. |
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04-14-2009, 05:05 PM | #208 (permalink) | |
let me be clear
Location: Waddy Peytona
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"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." "Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled." This is by design to encourage each state's regional identity under the union (diversity). Read the 5000 Year Leap.
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04-14-2009, 05:34 PM | #209 (permalink) |
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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The point is not so much about why the federal government shouldn't have authority over states, but why states, according to pan, should have authority over smaller communities. Pan specifically said that he accepts the Ohio smoking ban because it was passed by the state. I'm wondering what logic he's using that makes him OK with that but not OK with the federal government superceding the states on issues of discrimination such as gay marriage.
---------- Post added at 08:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:32 PM ---------- I understand the 10th Amendment, but what is generally being argued for here is a confederacy, which goes well beyond the 10th Amendment. Besides, we tried that once and it was a failure.
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling |
04-14-2009, 05:59 PM | #210 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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it's worse than simple incoherence logically---the particular state's rights arguments we've treated to above comes out of the reconstruction period and was used throughout it, and again in opposition to the civil rights movement, to attempt to short-circuit policies and laws that were set up to assure that african-americans were treated equally. this history is to my mind so ugly that it baffles me each time i see the same kind of arguments repeated here. and there's no wishing this history away. it doesn't change. there's an overwhelming amount of documentation that demonstrates this linkage.
the only tweak on them above, really, is now a perverse appropriation of the discourse of diversity has been tacked on. from what i can figure, the problems are structurally about the same for these folk as it was for their intellectual forebearers in the opposition to civil rights---they're freaked out that the federal government is acting because they are concerned that if it does act, they will loose. this because the petit-bourgeois right is made up of the eternal victim, is built around the mythology of its own victimization...so better inaction and incoherence, particularly in a situation of crisis--seemingly because if there's inaction and incoherence, these folk might not loose, but if the federal government act, they seem sure that they definitely will.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-14-2009, 06:53 PM | #211 (permalink) |
Functionally Appropriate
Location: Toronto
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Can someone recommend a few stodgy conservative journo-outlets similar to The Economist? I'd like to hear some more opinons on this from that set.
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Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life |
04-14-2009, 07:57 PM | #212 (permalink) |
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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Because I don't believe in sweeping generalizations like "Liberal" or "Conservative" states. I lived in Chicago for 12 years, and it was pretty obvious that while Chicago was Liberal, the rest of the state leaned more conservative. The state is considered "blue" because the Chicago area has about 75% of the state's voting body, but where does that leave the rest of the state?
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04-14-2009, 09:04 PM | #213 (permalink) | |||
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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My view is that when enough communities within a state and enough people petition for a law, like that, it is the state's responsibility to put it to vote. To me a vote on an issue such as this is far, far different than the state just saying "you cannot smoke in public places." ---------- Post added at 12:48 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:43 AM ---------- Quote:
I just think that it is not the Fed's purpose to dictate what laws such as those a state can have. I also don't believe that every state would deny legalized abortion or gay marriage. And if it doesn't pass the first time, find out what would help it pass and keep putting it on the ballot. ---------- Post added at 01:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:48 AM ---------- Quote:
Plain and simple it's called wanting to have power over others.If you are pro-abortion and you get abortion clinics everywhere including the heart of the Bible Belt where the vast majority do not want it but can do nothing about it because the Fed government states you can't..... then you have a sense of power over these people because your view and will proved more powerful than theirs. That's why extremists do not want the states allowing the people to decide their laws. If they give that power to the Fed and can vote the party in they can impose their will regardless of what the true (not some poll) majority of a state wants. Like gay marriage, I really don't believe in the vast majority that this is an issue. It only becomes an issue when you take it out of the people's hands and give that right to decide to the Fed. or state. Then, it becomes just a dictation and not a consensus of the people's will. Dictations people resent, letting the people vote and decide allows them the feeling of being heard.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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04-14-2009, 09:18 PM | #214 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Normally I'd say hubris, but I'd kinda like to legalize gay marriage in Utah out of retaliation for what they did to my state. What's your stance on retaliatory belief forcing? Perpetual belief forcing? Belief forcing escalation? Or justice?
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04-14-2009, 09:26 PM | #215 (permalink) |
Somnabulist
Location: corner of No and Where
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This is the single greatest thing ever broadcast on a cable news channel:
- Schuster: If You're Planning Tea Bagging Across The Country, 'You're Going To Need A Dick Armey'
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"You have reached Ritual Sacrifice. For goats press one, or say 'goats.'" Last edited by SecretMethod70; 04-15-2009 at 06:54 AM.. Reason: fixed youtube embed |
04-14-2009, 09:44 PM | #217 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Californians had it with Utah and others, we had ours last year through Indiana's riverboats (and other state's but they were the big ones) spending huge sums to make sure the gambling issue failed here. There is only 1 law I truly would like to see nationally and that is equal time for candidates and issues (in other words NO money being spent)... that way he who has the most money isn't guaranteed more air time or chance to bury the opposition with more ads.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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04-15-2009, 07:05 AM | #218 (permalink) | ||
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
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Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 04-15-2009 at 07:20 AM.. |
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04-15-2009, 07:21 AM | #220 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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seriously, i see nothing in pan's posts beyond anxiety.
the only coherent argument for transferring that much power to the states is that state government seems physically closer and so gives a greater illusion of control. the individual arguments don't fit together. i understand why folk would be anxious in this overall economic situation. we're all at least a bit anxious. what i don't understand is allowing that anxiety free reign to entirely shape how you see, well, everything, and even less giving yourself over to a politics entirely determined by it, speaking to and about only it.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-15-2009, 07:24 AM | #221 (permalink) |
Who You Crappin?
Location: Everywhere and Nowhere
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I'm also not sure why anyone would think that gay rights, abortion rights or the like should be voted on by the public. We're not talking about how state tax dollars are spent here or if Ohio should build a casino in Cleveland. Constitutional rights should be voted on by either the state congress or decided by the state supreme court.
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04-15-2009, 07:45 AM | #222 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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that problem is why i mentioned the ugly history of this version of state's rights arguments as they emerged during the reconstruction period.
it is a real problem. i don't think folk have thought this out.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-15-2009, 08:31 AM | #225 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Time will tell. I can't wait for the media coverage of today's Tax Day Anti-Tax Tea Party Protests. (Say that ten times fast.)
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
04-15-2009, 08:46 AM | #226 (permalink) |
Tone.
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That's one bet I'd not take against you. From what I've been able to discern many if not most of them are Limbaugh-listening dittoheads who are determined to believe that the democrats want to take their money, even though they'll end up paying less under the democratic plan. There is a certain section of society, depressingly large, that fights loudly and vigorously for their own detriment.
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04-15-2009, 08:47 AM | #227 (permalink) | |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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what a shock. it's the lead story on faux news webpage.
Anti-Tax 'Tea Party' Protests Expected Across U.S. - Presidential Politics | Political News - FOXNews.com this is particularly funny: Quote:
DAN GAINOR: Note to the Media — Just Do Your Job and Cover the Tea Parties FOX Forum FOXNews.com this is funny stuff.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
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04-15-2009, 08:56 AM | #229 (permalink) | ||
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Not that it worked well or was the best of ideas in history, but that's how Prohibition was started enough states had already outlawed alcohol in one way or another and the amendment process started. Quote:
If your gay and you cannot get married in your state go to one that allows it and get married then go back and live happily ever after. The problem with this country is you have extremists carrying clubs around and bashing people over the head, threatening lawsuits and trying to bully their will into law. There is no compromise. There is no respecting others beliefs. there's just "I'll pummel you into submission, I'll get the press to back me and I'll sue you into poverty until you accept my will." I truly believe the average citizen, who works hard and is just trying to survive is tired of it. It's all back and forth and back and forth and nothing seems to truly get done but for the people carrying the clubs bashing innocents. If you want gay marriage in your state work with people by telling them your side, why that issue is important, how it will affect them and campaign for it. Don't bash people into acceptance. IT WON'T HAPPEN. In the end all you will ever get is resentment and more prejudice, more hatred and more polarity, anger and an eventual breakdown in society that will call for a police state. If you truly want freedom, it comes from the people voting on issues that affect them or family or friends. If you want a police state continue the road we are on and ignore what the majority wants because you believe government and the guys carrying the clubs know what is best for EVERYONE and not just an extreme vocal minority.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 04-15-2009 at 08:59 AM.. |
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04-15-2009, 09:31 AM | #230 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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all I know is if it has this many liberals and democrats doing everything they can to mock and ridicule it, somebody is doing something right.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
04-15-2009, 09:45 AM | #232 (permalink) | |||
Human
Administrator
Location: Chicago
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Quote:
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__________________
Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling Last edited by SecretMethod70; 04-15-2009 at 09:47 AM.. |
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04-15-2009, 09:50 AM | #234 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Yeah if that many neo-cons and GOP'ers are pissed off something must be going right.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
04-15-2009, 10:47 AM | #237 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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this is kind of a funny read. really is it that contentious?
from: http://www.rossputin.com/blog/media/...ptorsFlyer.pdf
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 04-15-2009 at 10:58 AM.. |
04-15-2009, 10:55 AM | #238 (permalink) |
Super Moderator
Location: essex ma
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that's classic.
it's a drama queen pamphlet advising other drama queens to not be such drama queens else they be caught on camera and their image sent out over feeds not properly boxed in by the official conservative press structures interpretation and in the process be revealed as drama queens. my favorite remedy: pretend to be interested.
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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite |
04-15-2009, 10:59 AM | #239 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: bedford, tx
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---------- Post added at 01:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:58 PM ---------- strange, I don't FEEL owned.
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"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him." |
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04-15-2009, 11:04 AM | #240 (permalink) |
Tone.
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And what mindset is that? That only your skewed perception of things is the right perception? You aren't making very much sense here. . .
The fact (yes, FACT) is that 95% of us will pay lower taxes under Obama's plan, and yet a good portion of that 95% is running around to tea parties today yelling about how pissed off they are about having to pay higher taxes. They're uninformed, ignorant, wrong, and just plain stupid. |
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parties, tea |
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