Obama Releases Bush-Era Secret Terror Memos - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

dlish · 03-03-2009, 07:40 AM

so if Obama says it is torture to waterboard, will this open up the case for former prisoners (guilty or otherwise) to claim compensation, forced confessions as well as open the gate for bush and his buddies to be put on trial for war crimes?

Quote:

Obama releases Bush-era secret terror memos
Date: 3/3/2009 6:50:00 AM

Obama releases Bush-era secret terror memos

President Barack Obama's administration lifted the veil further on previous "war on terror" methods, as it ruled out the use of waterboarding as an interrogation technique because it amounted to torture.

Hours after Attorney General Eric Holder repudiated anti-terror methods enacted under former president George W. Bush, the Justice Department released nine internal memos and opinions it said gave legal grounding to the controversial policies.

The documents -- the first dating from the wake of the September 11, 2001 attacks to the last from the months following the US-led 2003 invasion of Iraq -- detail how Bush gave himself sole power over terror suspects.

"The power to dispose of the liberty of individuals captured ... remain in the hands of the president alone," said a 2002 opinion written by then-assistant attorney general John Yoo on US methods for transferring suspects.

"Congress can no longer regulate the president's ability to detain and interrogate enemy combatants than it may regulate his ability to direct troop movements," according to another 2003 opinion written for Alberto Gonzales, then counsel for Bush, which detailed prerogatives for military interrogations.

In another potentially explosive opinion, Bush's administration also gave itself ample space to skirt international law.

The president's "power to suspend treaties is wholly discretionary," according to a memo intended for John Bellinger, who was then legal advisor to the National Security Council.

Self-applied boundaries for executive power gave the White House "unconstrained discretion to suspend treaty obligations of the United States at any time and for any reason," said Obama's Justice Department in a statement released alongside the memos.

The house-cleaning move comes as Obama's administration seeks to distance itself from Bush-era policies.

"Waterboarding is torture," Holder said earlier Monday in a speech to the Jewish Council of Public Affairs. "My Justice Department will not justify it, will not rationalize it and will not condone it," he said.

"The use and sanction of torture is at odds with the history of American jurisprudence and American values. It undermines our ability to pursue justice fairly, and it puts our own brave soldiers in peril should they ever be captured on a foreign battlefield."

Holder is currently leading a review of the treatment of terror suspects.

Obama ordered the review as one of his first acts in office, as he also ordered the closing of the infamous Guantanamo Bay detention center, the CIA's secret prisons abroad and special interrogation authorities for terror detainees.

In an executive order, Obama required that all interrogations conducted at US facilities worldwide follow the US Army field manual, which bars the use of waterboarding -- a form of simulated drowning -- and other harsh interrogation techniques.

"Living our values doesn't make us weaker, it makes us safer and it makes us stronger," Obama told a joint session of Congress in a primetime address last month.

"And that is why I can stand here tonight and say without exception or equivocation that the United States of America does not torture."

The president has also vowed "swift and certain justice for captured terrorists."

Many detainees at the US naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba have been held there for years without trial, and more than 200 inmates remain.

A Pentagon report in February said that conditions at Guantanamo were in line with the Geneva Conventions but also called for easing the isolation of high-security detainees.

More than 800 detainees have passed through Guantanamo since it was opened on January 11, 2002, as a place to ship suspects in the "war on terror" begun by Bush in the wake of the September 11 attacks.

Baraka_Guru · 03-03-2009, 07:52 AM

One would assume that the breaking of laws would be followed up by reparations and/or punishment.

But that isn't always the way of the world.

It will be interesting to see what becomes of this.

aceventura3 · 03-03-2009, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

One would assume that the breaking of laws would be followed up by reparations and/or punishment.

But that isn't always the way of the world.

It will be interesting to see what becomes of this.

I am betting nothing will come of this.

I think President Obama will protect his executive powers with the same vigor that Bush did.

I think the release of these documents is some what of a diversionary tactic to, at least temporarily, pacify the anti-Bush crowd. However, I doubt any leaders in Congress really want to spend a lot of time revisiting these issues because I think they are complicit or at least knew what bush was doing and took no action to stop it before it became public.

blktour · 03-03-2009, 12:00 PM

I have been reading; The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul and he states in there parts of the Constitution and bill of rights, and says that the president doesnt have the constitutional authority to pass congress EVER.

But who will ever bring this up?

RogueGypsy · 03-03-2009, 12:47 PM

I see this as a simple win-win ploy for the current administration.

I'm not condoning Bush's tactics or those of the CIA and the other alphabet soup agencies. It all really sickens me more than anything else. Oblabla has taken verbal stand to protect our rights, but as we've seen already, what he says and what he does are two different worlds. There is more earmarked pork in the stimulus package than can be believed. Yet, his campaigns foundation was change in Washington, NO MORE EARMARKED SPENDING. If he was indeed opposed to the acts of the former administration. HLS would be dissolved immediately along with the Homeland security act, the document signed into law granting all of the heinous powers discussed in those memos. Instead he chooses to focus mainly on the rights of non-citizens. While I agree they deserve the same rights we do, what happened to out rights? And why is the HLSA still a law?

This also seems to be a lead in to the Socialist agenda flowing through Washington as I type. Now he can answer any opposition with "you let Bush do it, why not me?".

The truly terrifying element in all of this, those who have the power to change it, WE THE PEOPLE, seem to agree by majority that socialism is what we want. Poles are reporting 69% of those surveyed think the government should provide for the people. Our government is too big and disorganized to do anything efficiently. Giving them control over our lively hoods and well being, is like asking an obsessive compulsive with memory loss to count grains of sand on a beach.

All in all, I'm loosing hope for our nation. Not because of the government or the current administration. But because the people have become so lazy and disillusioned, we are beginning to believe others can make better decisions about our lives than we can. It is truly sad.

The release of these memos is just another step encouraging the masses to relinquish their rights to government. The people and the courts couldn't get this information, so WHO YA GONNA TRUST?

Hang on tight, we're in for a wild ride.

ASU2003 · 03-03-2009, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RogueGypsy

we are beginning to believe others can make better decisions about our lives than we can. It is truly sad.

Decisions like where people can smoke, making resturants use slightly more expensive oil to get rid of trans-fat, or using tax money to build renewable energy sites?

There are medical results showing that these decisions improved society's health, but I as an individual am pretty powerless to do any of those things on my own if that is the way I decide to live. Businesses didn't want to change, so the government is the only other way to get things done.

robot_parade · 03-03-2009, 08:14 PM

This is even more scary than that article reveals:

The newly released secret laws of the Bush administration - Glenn Greenwald - Salon.com

Quote:

The essence of this document was to declare that George Bush had the authority (a) to deploy the U.S. military inside the U.S., (b) directed at foreign nationals and U.S. citizens alike; (c) unconstrained by any Constitutional limits, including those of the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments. It was nothing less than an explicit decree that, when it comes to Presidential power, the Bill of Rights was suspended, even on U.S. soil and as applied to U.S. citizens. And it wasn't only a decree that existed in theory;

Truly horrifying. The Bush administration literally believed and acted as if we were in a police state from September 11 2001 right up until he left office.

And honestly, if McCain had been elected, this stuff would probably never have come out, and most likely would've continued. Obama isn't doing nearly enough in my opinion to repudiate Bush's anti-liberty policies, and is in some cases actively supporting them, but I'm absolutely certain that McCain would've been much, much worse.

FoolThemAll · 03-03-2009, 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

Decisions like where people can smoke, making resturants use slightly more expensive oil to get rid of trans-fat, or using tax money to build renewable energy sites?

There are medical results showing that these decisions improved society's health, but I as an individual am pretty powerless to do any of those things on my own if that is the way I decide to live. Businesses didn't want to change, so the government is the only other way to get things done.

I might give you that last one, but it's laughable to suggest that you're powerless to avoid restaurant secondhand and restaurant trans-fat. You're completely in power. You're an adult with the power to avoid restaurants.

You simply choose to support the childish route.

RogueGypsy · 03-04-2009, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

Decisions like where people can smoke, making resturants use slightly more expensive oil to get rid of trans-fat, or using tax money to build renewable energy sites?

There are medical results showing that these decisions improved society's health, but I as an individual am pretty powerless to do any of those things on my own if that is the way I decide to live. Businesses didn't want to change, so the government is the only other way to get things done.

If you can't take two steps to the left or say 'no' to fried food, then you definitely need others to make your decisions for you. Come on, you must be joking.

I've seen studies on trans fats, but I have yet to see a study validating any claims about 2nd hand smoke. It stinks and is unpleasant, but aside from politicians and advertisers, no one has published anything, anywhere supporting those claims. Either way, it is your decision to go to a restaurant or bar which allows smoking and serves fried food. As it is the smokers decision. So who's rights are greater? The owner chooses to serve fried food, you choose to order it. I'm just not seeing where government needs to step in here and tell us what to do. If you don't like how an owner does business, take your business else were. If it has an impact on their business (the MAJORITY feel the same way), the business will change or go under. If not, then you need to change. Step away from the smoker and quit ordering fried foods.

What has happened to us as a nation. We are the descendants of people who cared so much about their personal freedoms and right to make their own decisions, that we took on the greatest military power in the world (at the time) and kicked their ass.

If you think you want to be a socialist at least live it before trying to change our system. Move to Canada or Brittan for a few years, talk to the people, live the life and walk the walk. I'm sure they'll be happy to clue you in on what it's like to have the government make decisions for you. In Canada taxes are nearly 50% of your income. Can you afford that? If you need surgery, get in line, it's about 2 years long.

Now go find whoever told you that you are powerless to enact change and that it's better if others make decisions for you. And kick'em in the junk.

You are your own person and control your own life, whether you like it or not. Man-up or Woman-up, which ever it may be and take responsibility for yourself. Everyone has issues and problems of their own to deal with, no one needs to deal with anyone else's, but that is exactly what happens when government gets involved. They make everyones problems, your problems.

If you think you'd like to give the government 1/2 of your income, wait 2 years for medical attention and carry the burden of everyones problems. Please do so, but do it were it's already the form of government. We like our freedom here, we founded a nation on it and have defended it with millions of our own families lives. Don't dishonor our forefathers by giving away what they paid so dearly to earn.

Brcok

roachboy · 03-04-2009, 10:41 AM

so the thread is about the bush administration's policies regarding torture.
i can understand that it might make you uncomfortable.
but a discussion about transfats?
how about you make another thread to continue this important business about food.

ring · 03-04-2009, 01:10 PM

When they say, 'released the memos,' who exactly are they releasing them to?
Is this something the general public is allowed to see?, and if so, how to find it.

I am sorry if this is an ignorant question,
but the only way I can become not ignornant about things I don't know,
is to ask questions.

robot_parade · 03-04-2009, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ring

When they say, 'released the memos,' who exactly are they releasing them to?
Is this something the general public is allowed to see?, and if so, how to find it.

I am sorry if this is an ignorant question,
but the only way I can become not ignornant about things I don't know,
is to ask questions.

Excellent question. Answer:

USDOJ: OPA: Publicly Distributed Documents

The Glenn Greenwald blog I link to above discusses some of the scariness. But you can go straight to the source. Welcome to open government.

ring · 03-04-2009, 03:12 PM

Thank you.
I might need some pepto, during, and after I read this.

Wait a sec, it says,

" Due to public interest in this matter, the Department of Justice is releasing these documents in an inaccessible format. Accessible versions will be posted as soon as possible. If you have a disability and the format of any material on the site interferes with your ability to access some information, please email the Department of Justice webmaster at webmaster@usdoj.gov. To enable us to respond in a manner that will be of most help to you, please indicate the nature of the accessibility problem, your preferred format (electronic format (ASCII, etc.), standard print, large print, etc.), the web address of the requested material, and your full contact information so we can reach you if questions arise while fulfilling your request.

Portable Document Format (PDF) files may be viewed with a free copy of Adobe Acrobat Reader."

I forgot I reformatted recently and didn't have Adobe...done.

03-03-2009, 07:52 AM	#2 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	One would assume that the breaking of laws would be followed up by reparations and/or punishment. But that isn't always the way of the world. It will be interesting to see what becomes of this. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

03-03-2009, 12:47 PM	#5 (permalink)
RogueGypsy Insane Location: The Great NorthWet	I see this as a simple win-win ploy for the current administration. I'm not condoning Bush's tactics or those of the CIA and the other alphabet soup agencies. It all really sickens me more than anything else. Oblabla has taken verbal stand to protect our rights, but as we've seen already, what he says and what he does are two different worlds. There is more earmarked pork in the stimulus package than can be believed. Yet, his campaigns foundation was change in Washington, NO MORE EARMARKED SPENDING. If he was indeed opposed to the acts of the former administration. HLS would be dissolved immediately along with the Homeland security act, the document signed into law granting all of the heinous powers discussed in those memos. Instead he chooses to focus mainly on the rights of non-citizens. While I agree they deserve the same rights we do, what happened to out rights? And why is the HLSA still a law? This also seems to be a lead in to the Socialist agenda flowing through Washington as I type. Now he can answer any opposition with "you let Bush do it, why not me?". The truly terrifying element in all of this, those who have the power to change it, WE THE PEOPLE, seem to agree by majority that socialism is what we want. Poles are reporting 69% of those surveyed think the government should provide for the people. Our government is too big and disorganized to do anything efficiently. Giving them control over our lively hoods and well being, is like asking an obsessive compulsive with memory loss to count grains of sand on a beach. All in all, I'm loosing hope for our nation. Not because of the government or the current administration. But because the people have become so lazy and disillusioned, we are beginning to believe others can make better decisions about our lives than we can. It is truly sad. The release of these memos is just another step encouraging the masses to relinquish their rights to government. The people and the courts couldn't get this information, so WHO YA GONNA TRUST? Hang on tight, we're in for a wild ride. __________________ Methods, application and intensity of application vary by the individual. All legal wavers must be signed before 'treatment' begins. Self 'Medicating' is not recommend. However, if necessary, it is best to have an 'assistant' or 'soft landing zone' nearby. Any and all legal issues resulting from improperly applied techniques should be forwarded to: Dewy, Cheatum & Howe, Intercourse, PA 17534. Attn: Anonymous.

03-04-2009, 10:41 AM	#10 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	so the thread is about the bush administration's policies regarding torture. i can understand that it might make you uncomfortable. but a discussion about transfats? how about you make another thread to continue this important business about food. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-04-2009, 03:12 PM	#13 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	Thank you. I might need some pepto, during, and after I read this. Wait a sec, it says, " Due to public interest in this matter, the Department of Justice is releasing these documents in an inaccessible format. Accessible versions will be posted as soon as possible. If you have a disability and the format of any material on the site interferes with your ability to access some information, please email the Department of Justice webmaster at webmaster@usdoj.gov. To enable us to respond in a manner that will be of most help to you, please indicate the nature of the accessibility problem, your preferred format (electronic format (ASCII, etc.), standard print, large print, etc.), the web address of the requested material, and your full contact information so we can reach you if questions arise while fulfilling your request. Portable Document Format (PDF) files may be viewed with a free copy of Adobe Acrobat Reader." I forgot I reformatted recently and didn't have Adobe...done. Last edited by ring; 03-04-2009 at 04:17 PM..

03-03-2009, 12:00 PM	#4 (permalink)
blktour Psycho Location: Anchorage, AK	I have been reading; The Revolution: A Manifesto by Ron Paul and he states in there parts of the Constitution and bill of rights, and says that the president doesnt have the constitutional authority to pass congress EVER. But who will ever bring this up?

03-04-2009, 01:10 PM	#11 (permalink)
ring ░ Location: ❤	When they say, 'released the memos,' who exactly are they releasing them to? Is this something the general public is allowed to see?, and if so, how to find it. I am sorry if this is an ignorant question, but the only way I can become not ignornant about things I don't know, is to ask questions.