Derwood

Obama aide: Ending 'don't ask, don't tell' must wait - CNN.com

I'm so glad he's going to do this. Clinton's policy was a disaster and Bush wasn't ever going to touch the issue. Thoughts?

Baraka_Guru

I think it's about time. Well, past time. Maybe I'm exaggerating a bit; this is the U.S. after all. I'd like to hear comments from those here who are serving, have served, or know someone serving in the U.S. forces.

But for interest's sake (and for comparison), check this article out: CTV.ca | Canada's military to allow gay weddings on bases (It's dated 2005.)

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zipper

Agreed...in the AF for the past 19 yrs (only one more to go!). It is time for America's Military to acccept ALL members of this society, regardless of sexual preference.

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Willravel

Seaver

I have nothing to say against this.

However, technically it's still illegal to have sex without previously being married to said person... and even then it's illegal to do it in any way outside of missionary position while being a member of the armed forces.

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Baraka_Guru

Seaver, are those health and safety regulations?

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Seaver

Nope, in the UCMJ

One of my favorite lines, it is illegal to have "undo carnal knowledge of the opposite sex." No anal for you, sorry not yours.

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Tully Mars

Yep. UCMJ Artcile 125-

And-

I think the key word there is May direct. Prostitution's also in violation of the UCMJ. I'd be willing to bet there's a blind eye turned to this in every branch of the service somewhere tonight.

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Seaver

Heh thanks for having the direct quotes. It's been a few years for me since I've been in.

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Derwood

While I applaud the idea of openly allowing homosexuals to serve in the military, I think it's too big a job to police the inevitable harassment they will get from some of the meat heads (and there are meat heads at all levels). It's a shame that a sect of people who want to serve their country have to put up with daily bullshit from some of their fellow soldiers, not to mention a few of their commanding officers.

scout

Having been in the military I know most everyone there puts up with a daily dose of bullshit from their fellow soldiers/sailors regardless of sexual orientation. In that respect a persons sexual orientation shouldn't be off limits. It certainly isn't off limits for straight soldiers/sailors so why should it be different for gays? For the most part if you do your job effectively I don't think the majority really give a shit about your sexual orientation.

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Derwood

I'm not concerned with people busting each other's balls. I AM concerned with more serious, physical conflicts.

Seaver

I saw a Seaman driving the USS Alabama (Nuclear Missile Sub) litterally get dickslapped by a Petty Officer he owed $15 to. The guy driving the sub reached back and racked the PO dickslapping him, and the Captain only then stepped in yelling at the driver to pay attention and keep all hands on the wheel.

Some things you just don't understand unless you're in.

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ASU2003

I'm sorry, but there are more pressing matters to worry about.

The only thing I could see him doing is getting tougher punishments for hazing, intimidating, or threating in the UCMJ.

But still, wait until year 3 or 4. Is this really a big deal, or is some group (left or right) trying to bring this up?

Derwood

it's not a big deal to you, maybe.

also, his reps have said it won't happen right away, so no, it's not considered a pressing issue right now

Plan9

This is why I joined the Army.

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filtherton

Maybe they'd get more recruits if they stressed the dickslap friendly atmosphere...

murp0434

Originally Posted by ASU2003 View Post
I'm sorry, but there are more pressing matters to worry about.

The only thing I could see him doing is getting tougher punishments for hazing, intimidating, or threating in the UCMJ.

But still, wait until year 3 or 4. Is this really a big deal, or is some group (left or right) trying to bring this up?


AGREED AGREED AGREED. Also even if 'don't ask don't tell' is rescinded, the same basic policy will probably be in place forever. The military isn't especially inclined to bow to the whims of the democratic party regardless of the official policy. PS I don't care at ALL whether you're into men or women I just don't think it's as important as people make it out to be. I support gay marriage and I support gays in the military...I also have no problem with don't ask don't tell. That's basically my philosophy on life in general...unless one of us is trying to initiate sexual activity with the other, what difference does it make?

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Derwood

the big deal is that under Don't Ask, Don't Tell, you can still be kicked out of the military for being gay.

Seaver

I think this is a good move so long as fraternization policy remains the same. Fraternization prevents people from the same group going at it, for fear of the inevitable drama which could ensue. Un-needed distractions could provide a dangerous situation and cost lives.

Keep the Not In Same Heirarchy rule, and I'm all for it.

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murp0434

Didn't realize they could kick you out if you "come out." Nevermind I guess a restructuring of that policy is in order.

In other words, let me say...

+1

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Derwood

I'm totally fine with this

Sun Tzu

Maybe I should have watched the Democratic debates, this is the first I'm hearing this.

I can't help but think . . . why? I’m sure everyone here agrees with the first part of the policy. I don't see the majority openly stating "hey I'm heterosexual". There is no reason for it. Why is there any need to modify this? It is simply a logistical nightmare, not to mention potential negative morale effects in combat training and on the battlefield. Political correctness would cripple everything and the leaders would be afraid to undo the damage done.

I think it is possible for a politician that has never served in the military to make good decisions as Commander In Chief. This; however, is not an example. Focus on more important things Obama.

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Derwood

It didn't come up in the debates as anything more than a yes/no question ("Will you overturn it?")

And the current policy is a nightmare. You really support a policy that says "we can't ask if you're gay, but if we find out, you're done."? Really? It's cool to have a policy that says if you're gay and want to serve you have to pretend not to be gay?

Trying to call this a "political correctness" issue is pretty insulting to me.

filtherton

But if we let the gays force us to let them serve openly in the military, what's going to stop them from forcing us to let dogs, children, dead people, and/or polygamists serve openly too?

Derwood

you're right, we shouldn't disrupt our proud tradition of rampant homophobia in the military just to shut up those sissy whiners

zipper

What is up w/people being so afraid of a homosexual???? I have been straight for all of my 39 years and have yet to have a gay guy hit on me. So is the big fear? Trust me vagina lovers....gay guys don't hit on straight guys.

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Seaver

Sarcasm I hope?

I've been hit on a couple of times, speak for yourself

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filtherton

Sarcasm is correct.

And for the record, gay guys can't get enough of my cock.

Why Do All These Homosexuals Keep Sucking My Cock? | The Onion - America's Finest News Source

Sun Tzu

Well, I assume the talk of homophobes is being directed at me since I’m the only one in this thread disagreeing. I’m not going to give all the reasons why I’m not. I do have concerns of the effects the new policy may carry with it.

When I entered the Navy they were still asking the question "are you a homosexual?" When Clinton's modifcation took effect it wasn’t Earth shattering. Being a Navy Corpsman I worked the ER, attended Basic Underwater Demolition School, and served as a field combat medic with the Marines.

In the time working at the emergency room, I worked alongside a commissioned officer who was gay. Everyone knew it, and he was well liked. In fact, he’s probably one of the best physicians I have ever worked under. His skills were superb and he was an excellent teacher as well. He never hit on any of the males; he also never openly shouted to the world “I’m gay”. This may seem odd to some, but in the 6 years I was in the Navy I never heard a straight person proclaim their sexual preference.

In many of the things I did in SEAL training and as a field medic I wouldn’t be alone in stating that having knowledge of whose gay would be problematic. Just like Clinton’s progressive eyes were opened when he toured the tight quarters of a Submarine. That’s not good news, that not bad news, it’s just the news. There are many work situations in the military the resemble working a civilian job. There are also scenarios that unless you have experienced for yourself, it’s pretty easy to cast judgment on how far away we all are from the Star Trek Utopian society

What’s the issue here? If the military finds out someone is gay? How does that usually happen? If two guys are caught having sex on duty they’re going to be in trouble. If a man a woman are caught having sex on duty they are going to be in trouble. Is this about having the right to walk into a work area and letting everyone know about one’s homosexuality just because they should be able to? Currently there really aren’t any critical problems. I think what this really may be about is being able to put a gay ad online and not be persecuted for it. When this policy is put into place I guarantee there will be probelms. I also agree with keeping females off the front lines and out of Special Forces.

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Derwood

there will be problems in the short term but improvements in the long term.

Sun Tzu

Children, dead people, dogs . . .heh

Polygamists however- do you think they are unfairly persecuted? The common agreement here is that the goverment has no business in people's bedrooms- and I agree. Should the same be for people that choose to have multiple spouses?
-----Added 17/1/2009 at 09 : 31 : 30-----
Currently there are many areas in the military that it proably would not ever be a problem. But there are aspects where it will most definately be a problem.

Is there anyone in this thread that has combat experience or at least combat training experience that thinks its a good idea for people to be open about their homosexuality?

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Derwood

explain the problems. how is an "out" homosexual a detriment to the areas you are talking about? what's the fear?

Telluride

Agreed. Everything the government has and does is funded by taxpayers and, therefore, no citizen should be discriminated against by or by order of the government.

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Sun Tzu

Some naively assume that by abolishing the "don't ask, don't tell" policy, they'll end discrimination against gays in the military. The practical truth is that under certain conditions, particularly in combat, open homosexuality can create discomfort and threaten unit cohesiveness.

The existence of openly homosexual service members can lead to apprehension and resentment in units, and ultimately threaten military readiness and morale. The problems would start far before combat (which hopefully there is none or an end).

Unfortunately, some conditions require commanders to use their own discretion in deciding whom to remove. Congress should not interfere with that by injecting the politics of gay rights into the military.

Does everyone here also feel females should be in the SEALs, Rangers, Forced Recon, etc.

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Derwood

so you're against openly gay men in the military because the current soldiers are too insecure in their own manhoods to be able to function properly in combat with a gay guy by their side? that's a pretty weak argument, and one that bows to an out-moded way of thinking. the idea of allowing gays in the military is (in part) to normalize the idea of it so that the "lack of morale" cliches go away

Seaver

Sun, that's the exact same argument as to why Blacks and Whites could not serve together. Do you support re-segregation of the military, or do you seed that the integration of the military helped break down barriers which continued to exist in the civilian world long after.

The women serving in special forces argument is a whole other beast all together. I'd have no problem with it provided they were held to identical standards to their male counterparts... the PC fact is women are given a borderline free pass on anything physical in standards comparison. This, however, has nothing to do with sexual direction.

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Sun Tzu

There is a couple of situations I had been in where I would have felt uncomfortable- not insecure, but as a whole I would have dealt with it. Its just my opinion there is going to be many who wont deal with or deal with it in ways that will cause problems. The CNN survey shows the general public in favor of lifting the policy, but a majority of the military is still opposed to it.

Seaver there are females that can hold to the same standards. Do you really think that is the only reason they are being held back?

Ofcourse I dont believe in segregation of races in the armed forces. In fact Ithink its a great place to show how poeple of all ethnic backgrounds can work effectively with one another. Im only offering my opinion based on my experience, I think its going to lead to greater discrimination and more problems.

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Derwood

you've yet to elaborate on what these situations are.

Sun Tzu

I wont go into many of them, but how about huddled next to one another (nut to butt)in the mud for a couple of days waiting for a target. Go visit a sub like Clinton did. It opened his eyes a little.

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