KirStang

Hahaha, this reminds me of the Family Guy episode where all the towns people are "Why the f*ck do we need guns for?" So they burn all the guns. Immediately after, mutated Stewies come and destroy the town while they scream, "quick pull the guns out of the fire!"

In all seriousness, I have taken so many new people shooting who then realize that guns aren't actually evil...

*Edit:* Btw, this thread needs to die. Nobody's really listening to the opposition.

dc_dux

I havent seen any "gun grabbers" here but I can't speak to what you see in your head.

I have pointed out repeatedly that the OP is based, in large part, on false and misleading information perpetrated by the NRA and "gun nuts" (I would not normally use that term, but it seems fitting to respond in kind on behalf of the unseen "gun grabbers")

I think it would also be clear to most objective observers that additional federal gun control legislation is not on Obama's agenda nor is there enough support for it in Congress in the highly unlikely event that Obama would chose to make it an issue.

And finally, the Heller case made it clear, again to most objective observers, that 2nd amendment rights are not absolute.

If that is "fear and ignorance" then I guess it is the burden we "gun grabbers" must bear.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Derwood

Who said guns are evil? Who said the government should take your guns away? Find one post in the past 17 pages that say either of those things. I HATE this response to anything deemed "anti-gun" by the pro-gun people. It's possible to personally dislike guns and not want to own one, and/or to feel that citizens don't need AK-47's in their gun racks, without thinking guns are evil or need to be seized.

Slims

How can you argue that additional gun control legislation is not on Obamas agenda when he says quite clearly that it is on the whitehouse.gov website?

I can understand and agree with the argument that he has bigger fish to fry and it won't be at the top of his to do list, and I also agree that many senators/congressmen will be loath to support anti-gun legislation due to the fallout from the '94 ban. However, it IS on his agenda (and the democratic parties agenda) and therefore could possibly end up in a bill whenever the opportunity presents itself.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

dc_dux

Because its on the WH website or the DNC platform doesnt put it on the agenda in any "real time" political terms. They are broad policy statements, quite different from an action agenda. IMO based on the realities of the political landscape, it is not on the top of his to-do list or the bottom of his to list or anywhere on his list....everything in a policy statement doesnt make its way into a component of a legislative agenda.

But it makes a convenient red herring for the NRA and gun rights advocates to continue to spread misinformation like....

....the notion that something "could possibly end in a bill" (just another myth).

Gun control legislation is not like an earmark...it just doesnt appear or "end up" in a bill...it would have to take the form of a "substantive" amendment and it only takes one Senator to kill it instantly or at the very least to force it to go through a rigorous process in at least one house and then kill it later.

You just simply cant ignore the political realities.
-----Added 3/2/2009 at 10 : 26 : 53-----
Stop with this experience bullshit, please!

One doesnt need to have been a reporter to have an opinion on or understand the rights of a free press under the 1st amendment.

One doesnt need to have gone through the criminal justice system to have an opinion or understand the rights of a defendant under the 4th and 5th amendments.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Derwood

you're the one sliding down that slippery slope, not me. my opinion that citizens don't need AK-47's doesn't mean I think they should be taken away.

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

dksuddeth

so what you're advocating then is not removing the right to have those weapons, just removing the inventory of them, right?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

I'm not advocating anything pro-active at all, just expressing my personal opinion about them

dc_dux

Have you been hiding under a rock with your ak 47?

Nobody is trying to restrict the 1st amendment?
Take some time to look at how the Bush administration has tried to restrict media (and public) access to government documents.

Nobody is trying to expand the power of the government under the 4th and 5th amendments?
Ask dk about search and seizure or warrantless wiretaps or eminent domain.

Your suggestion that you should have experience with guns in order to express an opinion on the 2nd amendment is just ignorant.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

don't get me started. LOL

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

I cant talk about anymore.

I have never been subject to search or seizure or eminent domain.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

KirStang

Curious. Do tell. (I'm not challenging you, really am curious).

Lack of direct experience undermines some credibility as compared to those who do have experience. Compare, the attorney to the layman about the Criminal Justice system. Who's more credible?

I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, I'm saying getting direct experience will balance out your opinion and give you greater credibility.

I've been on both sides of the fence regarding guns. I do think guns have been politicized far too much. They used to sell pistols at Sports Authority. Then Columbine happened and all of a sudden guns were treated like radioactive substances.

timalkin

..

__________________
Trinity: "What do you need?"

Neo: "Guns. Lots of guns."

-The Matrix

Plan9

Social harm stuff. Much in the way that cars must have certain safety features and potheads protest when they're not snacking.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

dc_dux

On restrictions of a free and unfettered press guaranteed by the 1st amendment:

In the last eight years, federal agencies had restricted media and public access to government documents because of a 2001 memo from Attorney General John Ashcroft....according to a GAO report.

Almost a full third of the total number of FOIA officials surveyed (31 percent) reported that because of the memo there was a decreased likelihood that their agencies would make a discretionary release of information. Additionally, one-fourth of the FOIA officials surveyed reported that Ashcroft’s memo has changed the use of specific FOIA exemptions. For a single memo the impact indicated by this simple survey is considerable.

GAO Report Indicates Less FOIA Information Under Ashcroft - September 22, 2003 Vol. 4 No. 19 - OMB Watch

I find this amusing if not insulting.

Its funny how many conservatives like to describe liberals as "elitist." IMO, to suggest that someone needs experience with guns to have a knowledgeable opinion is far more "elitist" than anything I've read from any gun control supporters in this discussion

In fact, as far as experience = knowledge, I havent seen "greater credibility" but rather quite a bit of misrepresentation (by gun rights advocates) of Obama's position and voting record on gun control, on how gun amendments can be "snuck into bills," etc.

The opinions and knowledge on the 2nd amendment of those who have no direct experience with guns may differ from those who have weapons for sporting purposes whose opinions and knowledge may differ from those who want a gun for home protection whose opinions and knowledge may differ from those who just want to own a gun for whatever reason whose opinion and knowledge may differ from those who have used a weapon against another human being.

All of the above represent segments of society that are impacted by gun legislation and no one groups opinion is more valid than the others.
-----Added 4/2/2009 at 09 : 20 : 10-----
I dont speak for people who want to ban guns and I dont presume, like you do, to know their reasons.

And I respect their right to express their opinion for whatever reason. They are citizens too and I dont treat them as less than equal to have an opinion with which I might agree or disagree.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

KirStang

Thought this was pertinent.

dc_dux

I would attribute much of the "scare" to the NRA's misrepresentation of Obama's record that the above "news" report perpetuates.

A $10 million communications campaign can spread a hell of a lot of misrepresentations!

Lou Dobbs...an objective reporter?
-----Added 5/2/2009 at 12 : 25 : 03-----
I think this is pertinent...from the standards of professional journalists offered in another thread:

--Test the accuracy of information from all sources... Deliberate distortion is never permissible.

-- Identify sources whenever feasible. The public is entitled to as much information as possible on sources' reliability.

-- Distinguish between advocacy and news reporting. Analysis and commentary should be labeled and not misrepresent fact or context.

It would have been more professional and objective if Dobbs had given an administration spokesperson the opportunity to respond to the allegations. Don't you think?

But then again that might well have undercut Dobbs' agenda.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

KirStang

I must say some more conservative branches are using scare tactics. However, with many people in power who're anti-gun, that gives me valid cause to be worried.

Rahm Emmanuel, the White House chief of staff seems firmly anti-gun. Same with Eric Holder.

dc_dux

The difference in the videos....Emanuel speaking at a clearly identifiable Brady event so its clearly an advocacy speech (with a counter-message imposed on the vid...nice touch!). The Dobbs video presented as a "news" story with the headline "freedom under fire."

The art of communications manipulation!

Fine....be worried.

I think you are wasting your energy on a non-issue in terms of the Obama agenda....with so many pressing issues on the agenda where he wants bi-partisan support.

Particularly if you look at objective "vote counting" in the Congress...it only takes 40 senators to block any legislation and there are at least 4-5 Democratic Senators, along with nearly every Republican Senator, who are not gun control advocates...that makes 44-45.....any bill --> DOA...just like the 110th Congress where the Senate didnt evern bother introducting a companion bill to the one that comes up in the House every term (with a handful of die hard sponsors).

But it does keep the $$$$ flowing to the NRA to pay for those $multi-million communications campaign (more than 10x what the "other side" spends)!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

KirStang

You make a good point about filibuster. We'll see where the gun control issue goes as the year(s) progress.

Btw, Emmanuel makes a huge correlation = causation error.

He also talks about a jump in hand gun crimes, yet the AWB was targeted primarily at cosmetic *rifle* bans. Meh. We'll see.

scout

It keeps the money flowing to groups like the Brady bunch also. It isn't the only the NRA that spreads lies and misconceptions.

__________________
"The beauty of the second amendment is that it will not be needed until they try to take it."
Thomas Jefferson

dc_dux

I agree the gun control side often misrepresents the facts as well.
-----Added 5/2/2009 at 07 : 27 : 45-----
Yep....I haver never suggested otherwise.

The difference....10 to 1 in spending by the gun rights side.


yes please!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

I thought it had been said that President Obama was going to be too busy to do something like this?

ABC News: Obama to Seek New Assault Weapons Ban

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

dc_dux

I just read Holder's quote:

"As President Obama indicated during the campaign, there are just a few gun-related changes that we would like to make, and among them would be to reinstitute the ban on the sale of assault weapons,"

There are many policy changes Obama might "like to make", but that is hardly the same as "intends to pursue" in light of the current agenda and continued interest in pursuing bi-partisanship.

Relax, the AWB introduced last year, with few co-sponsors, died in committee in the House w/o a hearing and did not even result in a companion bill in the Senate.

Why would he waste political capital on a bill that he knows would be DOA on arrival on the Hill?


---------- Post added at 12:01 AM ---------- Previous post was Yesterday at 11:58 PM ----------

But this does mean another NRA mass mailing on the way!

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Plan9

Thanks, I get enough of their gimmie-$$$ paranoia with the glossy ad rag they mail me every month.

Ugh.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

KirStang

Pelosi nixed the idea. Oh Holder. First you call us cowards, then you step outta sync with your party.

Senate votes to ease D.C. gun access; Pelosi nixes assault-weapons ban - On Deadline - USATODAY.com

Thank god. I was about to buy 40 more Pmags . /sarcasm.

Cynthetiq

thanks for that link...

Wait, so there was a ban on guns on the books in DC when that guy opened fire on the White House in the 90s?

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

Is everybody happy now?

The gun guys can relax and I might get voting rights in Congress

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

dksuddeth

guess not.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

again, just because he's pushing for another AWB doesn't mean he'll get it through.

dksuddeth

not what i was talking about. I was talking about the DC voting rights.

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

my bad....carry on

Force 10

Most Americans support that? /me laughs. Most Americans are on TFP, is that right?

We need to rip out all the gas lines in every single house. It's an explosive and a deadly inhalent. You could be a threat to your neighbor if you use them improperly. Same with the chemicals under your sink, your baseball bats, fuck it...lets ban knives like Europe. It's working out real well over there.

All my neighbors who had Obama signs planted in their yards are the same sheep who when the hurricanes come through every year nudge up to me because they know I CAN AND WILL take care of myslef and my family. The other eight months out of the year they all whimsically flail around here waiting for the government to take my nasty guns away from me.

Keep your chin up, sir. The government will take care of you. The police are only a phone call away. Sit tight, wait for them to come and handle the paperwork after the fact.

Oh and one last thought...ALl the weapons bans and limitations our dear president is wanting to impose upon us. Yeah, those don't apply to him. He'll still have his government security, paid for by me, with their weapons of their choice, protecting him. Why? Because he's better than you or me of course. He should have the right to protect himself on a higher level than you or me. Right? I mean his life is worth more, right? My beautiful, smart daughter...nah, fuck her she's a civilian. Besides, I might hurt someone If I have something rational and valid to protect her with. No way could I have the brains to handle a weapon as responsibly as the guys I pay to protect Obama. No way. I'm just a citizen.

Baraka_Guru

I'm sorry, Ruprex. Was that supposed to be a response to what I wrote, or did my words just set you off on a rant?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Derwood

I still don't know where people live who act like we live in the wild west. It's clearly not where I live

Telluride

The guns that some people want to ban are way more cool than those available in the Wild West.

__________________
"I am certain that nothing has done so much to destroy the safeguards of individual freedom as the striving after this mirage of social justice." - Friedrich Hayek

dksuddeth

I still don't know why people try to use the 'wild west' analogy to somehow signify anyone wearing a gun is some sort of cowboy. People wore guns in the wild west so they could defend themselves from human predators. we have human predators in this day and age, so why wouldn't people still wear a gun?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Derwood

That's my point. Where do you all live that you live in daily fear of "human predators" coming to hurt you or take your stuff? And how dangerous are these "human predators" that you need assault weapons to defend yourself rather than a hand gun or a shotgun?