Mojo_PeiPei

I disagree in a sense. Criticism is broad of Bush, but just because his approval rating is 20%, I still think that the majority of people were/are not ok with the way people left of center tend to talk about him. Even if you criticize or attack policies, the way much of the left has reacted to Shrub is pathetic and for sure gave birth to a climate where the office of the Pres. is no longer respected. Just so happens that people in the far right are on the outside looking in now, its not out of the realm of possibility they are seeing fit to doll out a little bit of the "lefts" own medicine.

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dc_dux

I would reverse it.

Bush's approval rating is so low because an overwhelming majority of the country hasnt liked what he has done...both in terms of policies and practices.

But if you think people were not ok with the criticisms of Bush (I disagree), I would imagine those same people would not be ok with the criticism of Obama, particularly before he has taken office.

I would think you would want to discourage such criticisms instead of fueling it if you believe it alienates the majority of voters.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Mojo_PeiPei

I don't really think we disagree all that much. All I'm trying to state is, it's one thing to disagree with a man's policies, or fault his policies, or fault him. But when you start throwing shit and calling him a terrorist/war criminal/seal clubber you are crossing a line. The lefts mantra of "he's not my president" for the last 8 years is case in point of my fundamental lack of respect for him and the office.

And as for Clinton, much of his criticism and heat he took stemmed from his personal life and choices thereof. As a matter of politics, I don't really recall him catching the same type of heat (not saying he took any less, just a different nature) as Shrub. But at the same time that is a fair parallel, I still think Bush got it much worse.

But if every president is dogged, then whats the big deal here? Would just seem to be more of the same.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

dc_dux

Again..I would say the birth of the the climate came during the Clinton presidency...from day one before any such attacks were warranted and far more vicious than anything Bush experienced.
-----Added 12/11/2008 at 09 : 19 : 36-----
But as you say...its more of the same

The difference is many voters, particularly swing voters, made it clear that they dont want more of the same....which is why, IMO, Republicans and their talking heads are "cutting off their nose to spite their face" (ie playing to their base) with the spurious attacks....a losing strategy if they want to appeal to those growing number of swing voters.

Think about it objectively.

Do you really believe Republicans/Conservatives will win back moderate centrist voters by taunts of socialism (when in fact they are programs/policies that will benefit many of those middle income swing voters) or "a Communist Jihadist seizing the White House in a democratic coup."

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

i want to say something on this, but in a different direction slightly.

a couple years ago i started to realize, particularly with reference to what i was doing here, that a consequence of deciding to participate in debates was that i had to accept the dominant conservative ideological frame of reference as something worth the trouble of arguing against, and that this was a mistake. i have been tired of the restricted and restricting games that this ideology imposed on all of us since. if you want to interact with folk in a space like this, you have to operate inside the shared frame of reference. everyone adapts to it, it builds on itself, becomes part of the culture of the board.

it also occured to me at about the same time that participating in debates was for me an expression of hopelessness, and that something of that was inverted into a desire to do *something* to go after the ideology that i was not in a position to do anything about in the larger scheme of things. initially, i was motivated in significant measure by anger at what i saw happening around me. and initially i found it fun to play trash the conservatives. it didn't do anything in the bigger scheme of things--but i felt vaguely better for it.
then it was less fun.
then it became tiresome.

i don't have particular expectations about obama--i don't know what his administration will look like yet, i don't know what policies he will enact. i know about the campaign, what it said, how it was conducted. i am waiting to see what happens. i do not expect anything in particular.


i see no reason to continue operating within the outmoded, tired framework that we have all been operating within since we started here--tfp is itself a creature of the bush period, and so reactions to the bush administration is a significant aspect of the history of politics here. now that period is over.

it is over.

so i see no reason why any of us need to continue operating within that outmoded, tired framework.

by that i mean i see no reason why we have to continue replicating in our interactions the dominant political discourse of the past 8 years--whether you supported the administration or opposed it, here you replicated the bigger context. i did it. everyone did it, one way or another. consider it a sign of the times--there is no outside.

i think we should change things around. if we keep interacting as if the politics of the last 8 years were still a necessary frame of reference, soon we'll be as firmly part of the past as the bush administration is.

let's consider how we might change this place.
the corpse of what was can only twitch for so long.
sooner or later it will stop.
what do we do then?

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-----Added 12/11/2008 at 10 : 38 : 53-----
there are a few things i wanted to take out of the above, but for some stupid reason i am not allowed to edit. i am thinking Giant Conspiracy. or the browser update. or something else. anyway, i'm leaving it as is because, well, i don't have a choice.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite