intecel

All I hear is that I should vote for McCain because Obama is Muslim, because Obama is tied to terrorist groups, because Obama will tax the rich more.

I have seen Obama's plan. It seems like there is more help in his plan that what i have (not) heard from McCain's plan.

So, what will McCain do for me? I haven't heard a single thing.

I am a 28 year old male, make $60k a year, homeowner.

Any thoughts?

guyy

You will be able to go to sleep knowing that you are RealAmerican.

kurty[B]

That's a good fair question intecel.

I just want to ask before this thread goes in the wrong direction. Do you want this thread to be like a Public Discussion (topic of conversation you might find yourself having at a bar or coffee shop), or to include articles and proof of any points people have to make?

I have no answer to your question, because I don't see any reasons to vote for McCain (unless you're pro-life).

__________________
In the Absence of Information People Make Things Up.

intecel

Too funny... that's exactly what I was trying to say. That is the type of response that comes out any time someone like me asks this question. I haven't yet heard an answer.

Baraka_Guru

Vote for McCain if:

• You want taxes cut;
• You want government spending increased;
• You want "mission accomplished" in Iraq;
• You don't want to go to Cuba;
• You want the possibility of more pre-emptive strikes on other nations.

There are merely some highlights. It should be enough to get you started, though.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

i don't see any reason to vote for mc-cain, but that's because i researched his positions--and because i think that the international community would assume that we in the us had collectively lost our minds were there to be another republican administration after this last one.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Daniel_

Erm - can you explain the apparent discontinuity of taking less money in tax, but sending more?

Also, didn't Bush declare "mission accomplished" a couple of years ago?

__________________

╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
╚═════════════════════════════════════════╝

intecel

I actually am looking for more public discussion on how the candidate will help the little guy (me), not the rest of the world. I am pretty set in my ways on voting for Obama because of what I have already read, and how disgusted I am with the current president and McCain's tactics.

I am pro-choice, but could care less on that issue. I am indifferent to the gay situation. I have pretty good health care through work that i only pay 1/2 of, and am fine with it.

More or less, I have seen nothing about how McCain could help me personally. I am trying to get some information from this thread about why people are voting for McCain, that are in my age / class range (and who are not racist).
-----Added 24/10/2008 at 04 : 40 : 51-----
Now, from what I've figured from each candidate's plans, my taxes will be cut under Obama, and not McCain. McCain, my taxes will stay about the same.

Is government spending going to help me? I make enough money to support my college education that I am going through. I don't own a business. I don't take welfare. What good comes out of more government spending for me?

Iraq will never be a mission accomplished. What a waste...

I don't understand the Cuba statement.

I am against unprevoked war, so I would rather have Obama in.
-----Added 24/10/2008 at 04 : 43 : 58-----
I also don't want this to turn into a thread slamming "the other guy" (or anyone else because of their ideas).

roachboy

Welcome to McCain Palin 2008 : :

i assume you've looked at this, yes?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Baraka_Guru

Certainly. Republicans have historically run deficits. They like to cut taxes and pump an increasing amount of money into things such as the military. Well, at least G. W. Bush does.

Yeah, but they way McCain is positioning himself on Iraq, it looks like he might want his own "mission accomplished."

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

intecel

Yeah I have been there. I can say the only thing that stood out (to benefit me) more is his stand on the second amendment, which seems to pretty much be GUNS GUNS GUNS!!! I Am completely for this.

I really wouldn't be opposed to Obama's idea either. Who *really* needs an assault rifle? I mean really? Also, he wants to close a loophole. Personal sales of guns at gun shows. I did this personally last year, but it was to a guy that had his CCW here in Florida, so it would have been legal/ok either way. I wouldn't have sold otherwise. How would I know if he was a convicted murderer and needed a gun quickly to kill again? I'd be fine with closing the loophole, but don't care if it stays open.
-----Added 24/10/2008 at 05 : 04 : 44-----
I guess what I'm really looking for is someone voting McCain to say: You should vote for him because ....

mcgeedo

I kind of doubt that anything I might say would persuade you. Any particular point in favor of McCain would immediately be countered by the relatively large Liberal population of this forum. As in any other campaign, each point that a candidate might make has been researched and spun and a counterpoint developed and spun.

The fundamental difference between the candidates is that one is a centerist Conservative and the other is a classic Liberal. What you'll get from each is based on that, not on a campaign pitch.

The likelihood is high that Obama will win. This is simply a reaction to Bush-hatred and the problems of the last few years, and of course the historic opportunity to elect a black President, qualified or not. Never mind that many of those problems have been caused by a Legislature that has been controlled by the Left; that they have the lowest approval rating in memory; that they have reneged on almost every committent that they made in order to be elected in the first place; that they are in large part responsible for many of the recent financial crises.

So, rather than list the reasons why you might want to vote for someone other than a radical Liberal, I think I'll just hold on for a while. Most here in the forum will disagree with me on this, but I feel that Obama will say or do anything to get elected, and that by May or so of next year, we'll begin to see what his (and his Liberal Legislature's) concept of Socialism really is. I'll bookmark this thread and put a reminder on my calendar. On second thought, I think I'll start a new thread, to save for next Spring. Won't it be interesting to read next May or June?

roachboy

i don't see even thoughtful conservatives agreeing with your assessment, mcgeedo.
to wit:

Reagan Appointee and (Recent) McCain Adviser Charles Fried Supports Obama - The Plank

make what you want of it, but to me it seems clear that yours is not a representative conservative line. the post sounded mostly limbaugh. fried is more serious and represents a REAL problem for what's left of the far right coalition that the republicans had put together.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dksuddeth

and we should care about the global community why?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Baraka_Guru

Because isolationism is bad.

* * * * *

intecel, the Cuba statement is in reference to Obama's plan to loosen up travel restrictions there. McCain will not do this.

And government spending is only good when the policies make sense and work in the grand scheme of things. None of us like waste and corruption. Do the programs make sense? Are they working? Is it worth running a deficit? (In this economic downturn, it just might.)

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

Because we all live on the same planet.

dksuddeth

who said anything about isolation?? I simply don't understand why people get concerned about other countries/peoples approval about how/why we run our own affairs. so why be concerned about international approval?
-----Added 24/10/2008 at 08 : 28 : 00-----
again, so? do i need to worry about getting saudi arabias approval to legalize marijuana? or ban guns? anything?

I realize we're all on the same planet, but each country is different because each region of people/culture is different. so why be concerned about others approval?

__________________
"no amount of force can control a free man, a man whose mind is free. No, not the rack, not fission bombs, not anything. You cannot conquer a free man; the most you can do is kill him."

Charlatan

You should care, in part, because the US being the 400 pound gorilla in international room affects and is affected by what happens in the rest of the world.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

filtherton

I don't think it's about approval. I think the idea is that it is easier to look out for your own interests if people like you; then, to a certain extent, your interests become their interests.

kurty[B]

Because I like to travel outside the United States without having to say I'm from Canada?

__________________
In the Absence of Information People Make Things Up.

mcgeedo

Do you suppose the Chinese care whether the rest of the international "community" likes them?

Derwood

This was exactly the OP's point. He doesn't want reasons NOT to vote for Obama (which, I understand, you have quite a list of), but reasons to vote FOR McCain. Two different things.

So, as a McCain supporter (I assume), give the OP the reasons you're voting for him. If your vote for McCain is really just a vote against Obama, I think that speaks to the weakness of McCain as a legit candidate.
-----Added 24/10/2008 at 08 : 46 : 17-----

like and respect are two different things.

roachboy

well, you are starting to see the consequences of this parochial american exceptionalism mythology in the way this current financial implosion is playing out. like it or not--and it really is not at all important what any of us think on this--the us is now in a position of *having to* co-ordinate it's actions with those of other countries. there was a g-8 meeting a couple weeks ago--a g-20 meeting is being convened in the coming weeks to work out some way of getting a handle on the situation that's been generated not only by the particular idiocy of american cowboy capitalism and it's structuring myth of the "invisible hand" and "enlightened self-interest" but also by the transnational circulation of these effects. while folk were pretending that the entire world was subordinate to the united states, shit has changed. the consequences of your own economic ideology applied, conservative-types, has changed the situation. nationalism is no longer functional in general, and american nationalism in particular is no longer functional--american retro-nationalism was a symptom of the the period of empire--the same ideology that reflected the period of empire also made it impossible for the americans to function effectively in that position--because it has *never* been the case that the united states is isolated----and it's parochialism and stupidity that's enabled a (formerly) politically dominant segment of the population to pretend otherwise.

that one or another of us might actually believe in, and see the world in terms shaped by, an ideology that is fundamentally only parochial and stupid really changes nothing--and that folk can't see that there's a problem simply repeats the interior dynamic of exactly the kind of thinking that's landed all of us in the present farce of a situation.

i keep writing this because it's true: nationalism is dead. catch up now or catch up later, it is of no consequence--it's dead no matter what you think.
of course, you're free to exercise your irrelevance in any way that you want, but at the least you should understand that by hanging on to this idea that the united states is separate from the rest of the world, what you're doing is performing your own irrelevance.
you'll have to deal with this sooner or later.
i don't particularly care how that happens, but it will---the writing's already abundantly on the wall---i mean look around folks, just look at what's happening in front of you.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mcgeedo

I acknowledge that McCain wasn't my first choice for a Republican candidate. Nonetheless, almost any Conservative is preferable to almost any Liberal. Being a Conservative is reason enough for me to choose to vote for McCain. It's a clear choice between ideologies.

Yes, "like" and "respect" are different. China cares about neither. Nor should we. "Fear" would be good enough for me.

Derwood

so are you a neo-con?

roachboy

well, in the end, for at least some conservative---not all, mind you---but some conservatives, what politics is about is identity. it's not what you think about situations, what policies might coherently address those situations--no no--it's about "being conservative"--and so is a matter of identity.

it's funny the extent to which an abstract categorization of oneself can be allowed to condition how one sees the world that is not oneself.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

djtestudo

And many liberals act the same way. Welcome to sociology 101: people like to form groups to use as their identity

My feeling is that if you (the OP) have gone through the issues and compared the views of the candidates to your own and you have to ask the question, it means one of two things.

1) You already know the answer and are looking for confirmation or

2) You are just trolling for a forum to either attack the candidate or demean the candidate's supporters.

I hope that it's the first reason in this case, since I definitely think you already know the answer that you want

__________________
"Final thought: I just rented Michael Moore's Bowling for Columbine. Frankly, it was the worst sports movie I've ever seen."
--Peter Schmuck, The (Baltimore) Sun

Charlatan

Anecdotally... yes.

I work with socialize with a number of Chinese nationals and they say they do care.

Don't confuse the people with the government.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

mcgeedo

I'm specifically talking about the government.

Charlatan

And everyone else here isn't talking about foreign governments.

Another example of talking past each other...

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

lktknow

I wanted to post an answer to this question, but was afraid I wouldn't be able to make my point, and then tonight when the evbening paper came, in the commentary section was the following article, he says just about what I wanted to say, only much better.



Why I'm voting for John McCain
By Charles Krauthammer, Washington Post
Article Launched: 10/23/2008 09:25:15 PM PDT


Contrarian that I am, I'm voting for John McCain. I'm not talking about bucking the polls or the media consensus that it's over before it's over. I'm talking about bucking the rush of wet-fingered conservatives leaping to Barack Obama before they're left out in the cold without a single state dinner for the next four years.

I stand athwart the rush of conservative ship-jumpers of every stripe -- neo (Ken Adelman), moderate (Colin Powell), genetic/ironic (Christopher Buckley) and socialist/atheist (Christopher Hitchens) -- yelling "Stop!" I shall have no part of this motley crew. I will go down with the McCain ship. I'd rather lose an election than lose my bearings.

First, I'll have no truck with the phony case ginned up to rationalize voting for the most liberal and inexperienced presidential nominee in living memory. The "erratic" temperament issue, for example. As if McCain's risky and unsuccessful but in no way irrational attempt to tactically maneuver his way through the economic tsunami that came crashing down a month ago renders unfit for office a man who demonstrated the most admirable equanimity and courage in the face of unimaginable pressures as a prisoner of war, and who later steadily navigated innumerable challenges and setbacks, not the least of which was the collapse of his campaign just a year ago.

McCain the "erratic" is a cheap Obama talking point. The 40-year record testifies to McCain the stalwart. Nor will I countenance the

"dirty campaign" pretense. The double standard here is stunning. Obama ran a scurrilous Spanish-language ad falsely associating McCain with anti-Hispanic slurs. Another ad falsely claimed McCain supports "cutting Social Security benefits in half." And for months Democrats insisted that McCain sought 100 years of war in Iraq.
McCain's critics are offended that he raised the issue of William Ayers. What's astonishing is that Obama was himself not offended by William Ayers.

Moreover, the most remarkable of all tactical choices of this election season is the attack that never was. Out of extreme (and unnecessary) conscientiousness, McCain refused to raise the legitimate issue of Obama's most egregious association -- with the race-baiting Rev. Jeremiah Wright. Dirty campaigning, indeed.

The case for McCain is straightforward. The financial crisis has made us forget, or just blindly deny, how dangerous the world out there is. We have a generations-long struggle with Islamic jihadism. An apocalyptic soon-to-be-nuclear Iran. A nuclear-armed Pakistan in danger of fragmentation. A rising Russia pushing the limits of revanchism. Plus the sure-to-come Falklands-like surprise popping out of nowhere.

Who do you want answering that phone at 3 a.m.? A man who's been cramming on these issues for the last year, who's never had to make an executive decision affecting so much as a city, let alone the world? A foreign policy novice instinctively inclined to the flabbiest, most vaporous multilateralism (e.g., the Berlin Wall came down because of "a world that stands as one"), and who refers to the most deliberate act of war since Pearl Harbor as "the tragedy of 9-11," a term more appropriate for a bus accident?

Or do you want a man who is the most prepared, most knowledgeable, most serious foreign policy thinker in the U.S. Senate? A man who not only has the best instincts, but has the honor and the courage to, yes, put country first, as when he carried the lonely fight for the surge that turned Iraq from catastrophic defeat into achievable strategic victory?

There's just no comparison. Obama's own running mate warned this week that Obama's youth and inexperience will invite a crisis - indeed a crisis "generated" precisely to test him. Can you be serious about national security and vote on Nov. 4 to invite that test?

And how will he pass it? Well, how has he fared on the only two significant foreign policy tests he has faced since he's been in the Senate? The first was the surge. Obama failed spectacularly. He not only opposed it. He tried to denigrate it, stop it and, finally, deny its success.

The second test was Georgia, to which Obama responded instinctively with evenhanded moral equivalence, urging restraint on both sides. McCain did not have to consult his advisers to instantly identify the aggressor.

Today's economic crisis, like every other in our history, will in time pass. But the barbarians will still be at the gates. Whom do you want on the parapet? I'm for the guy who can tell the lion from the lamb.

Charles Krauthammer is a Washington Post columnist (e-mail: letters@charleskrauthammer.com).

__________________
Never give up on something that you can’t go a day without thinking about. ~

ottopilot

That works for me.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

I cant help but laugh at Krauthammer's characterization of McCain as the "most prepared, most knowledgeable, most serious foreign policy thinker in the U.S. Senate..."

I doubt that any of McCain's colleagues in the Senate on either side of the aisle would agree.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

so if you're looking for reasons to vote for mc-cain, you find yourself having to take seriously fuckwits like charles krauthammer?
why not do what people do in a democratic polity and research mc-cain, and research obama--compare their platforms with your assessment of the overall situation--and make up your own mind?

trust me, you're smarter than krauthammer.
do the research and make a decision for yourself.
you don't need the approval of people on a message board.
just do the work and make up your own mind.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ASU2003

I'll be doing some more research into his policies and plan for the next 4 years next week. He actually has a answer to this right on the front page of his website:
JohnMcCain.com - McCain-Palin 2008

But what I like about him so far is:

1. $300 million for new battery technology (hopefully it won't be given to or bought by Chevron and then shelf the technology like they have done already...)
2. He was right about the surge and it would work in Afghanistan. Although the war should have been fought covertly, the American people wanted revenge after 9/11, not people dying 'accidental' deaths.
3. Cutting wasteful spending. There is a lot of 'extras' added to bills that if people voted against, it could be used against them politically and it isn't right.
4. Military/Veterans affairs
5. The dream that one day you will make a lot of money and don't want the government to take 50% of it.
6. (numbers made up for example) The idea that why should I work hard and make $40k, and pay 15k in taxes, but the guy who works part time and makes 25k doesn't pay anything. If you are down on your luck, you should be helped out, but there should be monetary incentives and benefits to hard work.
7. His call to service. This country would be much better if 18 year olds had to serve, work, or volunteer for 2 years instead of going into college right out of high school to do what everyone else is doing. There are a lot of older Americans that can still find a cause to work for instead of making more money as well. I know I would be happier if I had done something productive after high school, but before going to college.
8. He is willing to go against other people in his party when he knows that it isn't right.

dc_dux

ASU...just a couple observations on your list:

have you looked at McCain's voting record on veterans issues?

2007-2008 In 2007-2008 Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave Senator McCain a grade of D.

2006 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 20 percent in 2006.

2006 In 2006 Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America gave Senator McCain a grade of D.

2006 Senator McCain sponsored or co-sponsored 18 percent of the legislation favored by the The Retired Enlisted Association in 2006.

2005 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 25 percent in 2005.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Disabled American Veterans 50 percent in 2004.

2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the The Retired Enlisted Association 0 percent in 2004.

2003-2004 Senator McCain supported the interests of the Vietnam Veterans of America 100 percent in 2003-2004.

2003 Senator McCain supported the interests of the The American Legion 50 percent in 2003.

Project Vote Smart - Senator John S. McCain III - Interest Group Ratings

It looks like he had one reasonably good year for the vets, 2003.

Most recently, he was one of the few Senators who opposed the GI Bill for the 21st Century (but skipped the vote, then attended the WH signing and took credit for it)

You like his flip flop on tax policy?

That he now supports the Bush tax cuts that he opposed in 2001 and 2003 describing them as "fiscally irresponsible" because they were so heavily tilted towards the top wage earners

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Force 10

I have a thought...vote Republican Stand on your own two feet. Don't take handouts and support your constitution...or vote the other way. Tax the hard working smart people, support the underachievers by giving them more money, make everyone equal (because that's how it should be, right?) and by all means, take away my rights.

ratbastid

Between the "nail in the coffin" sensibility expressed in the last few words there, coupled with the sentiment expressed in your signature, I take it that you're downright furious about the Patriot Act? And so, you're standing up to vote Republican... why? The GOP in the White House and in the pre-2006-mid-term Congress took away more of your rights than any government in the history of our country. So you're going to vote for them to keep that power?

Derwood

can I get a link that says Obama will tax me 50% in the future?

ASU2003

It's not just Obama, but there are a lot of taxes. He will tax the people making over $250,000 more. And while I am not in that tax bracket, I would like to be. And if these people work hard they should be rewarded. If they made their money from other means, I have no problem with taxing them more.

It's too tough to cover all incomes, but here is an example. For a self-employed person who stated their own successful business:

Self Employment Tax - The Basics Explained

12.4% for Social Security. The Social Security portion of the self-employment tax is limited to $10,788.00 for 2003 if you earn equal to or less than $87,000 ($87,000 earnings limit x .124 = 10,788.00). Once you hit $87,000 of self-employment earnings, you have paid all you need to for Social Security.

2.9% for Medicare. The Medicare portion of the self-employment tax is unlimited. No matter how much, or how little you earn, you will be paying for Medicare.

Tax Brackets (Federal Income Tax Rates) 2000 through 2008

$164,550 - $357,700 = 33% (of amount after SE-taxes paid)


That's a lot before state taxes, city taxes, school taxes, property taxes, sales tax on goods you buy. And the health-care insurance(tax) is just a difference between paying a for-profit company and the government. It will cost about the same.

Sure there are tax loop-holes, write-offs and ways to reduce your taxes, but it's still a lot of taxes. (And it's still not enough to balance the budget, pay down the debt, and pay for all of the government spending)