Charlatan

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I just saw these to invitations to party when Obama wins... they are invitations to party in places outside the US. It might be a bit of counting chickens before they are hatched (and one article suggests as much) but I am more interested in the response to Obama outside of the US.

Granted these are two fringe publications in Toronto, but there have been international polls that suggest a lot of support for Obama on the international front. For my part, I am hearing a lot of positive talk in my current hometown. The locals here are relatively ambivalent about US politics in general, but seem to be very excited about Obama.

I don't think I can remember a time when the world outside the US has been so excited about who will be the next President of the US. Not that America cares, but I don't think it will go down well if McCain is elected.

What do you make of these invitations?

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

JBX

"If the rest of the planet could vote, Barack Obama would win the American 2008 election in an unprecedented landslide. It's safe to say that much of the world is waiting anxiously for the Obama victory -- think of the 200,000 people that saw Obama speak in Berlin last July.

Absolutely the world wants B.O. to win, it will be all the easier to liquidate the treasury under the guise of global warming and internationalism.

Truly hates the idea of USA voting in communism after fighting against it since it's inception.

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

Poppinjay

You mean like a guy who would take 700 billion of our tax dollars and nationalize the banks with it? That kind of communism? Or are you talking about the kind of communism where the government listens to your phone conversations and is planning to install troops within the country to patrol the streets?

That kind of communism?

Or could it be that the communism you're talking about is the type where a businessman can fail in all his endeavors and still be propped up by the production of others, 'cause I think I know guy who went through that.

Well, I agree. I would much rather have a president who would oversee the greatest peacetime expansion of our economy. Maybe some good republican could do that.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

tisonlyi

The people I talk to - Spaniards, Italians, Poles, UKsians and a Venezuelan - have pretty much laid out that they really want Obama to win. Most don't think, even now, that he'll make it into the office somehow.

I think people generally don't know much about his policies - they're not a million miles from McCain in reality - they just really don't like the idea of another hard right nutjob in the most powerful position on earth.

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

roachboy

spoken like a true john bircher, jbx. well done. quaint, even-----and more and more quaint every day.

the invitations are no surprise, nor is the overwhelming sentiment abroad in the world that the bush administration has been a fiasco, that the bush administration is republican and that therefore another republican administration would also be a fiasco. unless you're in the mc-cain campaign, that logic is difficult to refute.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

guyy

Any excuse to party, i suppose.

I'll drink to that.

Leto

Explain the communism part to me. I kinda lost you on that.

PS I thought that the US was fighting against ruthless totalitarianism (dressed up in Communist doctrine) all these years, and only briefly - during the McCarthy era was the concept of communism attacked. I believe that Hitler's Nazis took the boots to the communist cause earlier on.

__________________
You said you didn't give a fuck about hockey
And I never saw someone say that before
You held my hand and we walked home the long way
You were loosening my grip on Bobby Orr

http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Leto_Atreides_I

Charlatan

And yet they also have supported some of the most brutal dictatorships as well. As long as it was good for US business interests... it was acceptable:

Banzer, Colonel Hugo ---------------------------Bolivia
Batista, Fulgencio --------------------------------Cuba
Bolkiah, Sir Hassanal ----------------------------Brunei
Branco, General Humberto ---------------------Brazil
Cedras, Raoul -------------------------------------Haiti
Cerezo, Vinicio -----------------------------------Guatemala
Chiang Kai-Shek ---------------------------------Taiwan
Cordova, Roberto Suazo ------------------------Honduras
Christiani, Alfredo -------------------------------El Salvador
Fahd bin'Abdul-'Aziz, King ---------------------Saudi Arabia
Franco, General Francisco -----------------------Spain
Marcos, Ferdinand -------------------------------Philippines
Martinez, General Maximiliano Hernandez ---El Salvador
Noriega, General Manuel ------------------------Panama
Ozal, Turgut --------------------------------------Turkey
Pahlevi, Shah Mohammed Reza ---------------Iran
Papadopoulos, George --------------------------Greece
Park Chung Hee ---------------------------------South Korea
Pinochet, General Augusto ---------------------Chile
Rabuka, General Sitiveni ------------------------Fiji
Montt, General Efrain Rios ---------------------Guatemala
Salassie, Halie ------------------------------------Ethiopia
Salazar, Antonio de Oliveira --------------------Portugal
Somoza, Anastasio Jr. --------------------------Nicaragua
Somoza, Anastasio, Sr. -------------------------Nicaragua
Smith, Ian ----------------------------------------Rhodesia
Stroessner, Alfredo -----------------------------Paraguay
Suharto, General ---------------------------------Indonesia
Trujillo, Rafael Leonidas -----------------------Dominican Republic
Videla, General Jorge Rafael ------------------Argentina
Zia Ul-Haq, Mohammed ----------------------Pakistan

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Baraka_Guru

I like how the American election has come down to "either vote for the communist or for the fascist."

I think many outside of America want Obama to win because they think he will begin the process of bringing the nation "up to speed" with the rest of the industrialized world—in regard to certain aspects of economics, social issues, and international relations, etc.

I don't know. Am I wrong?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

snowy

I think many inside the United States want to see the same thing.

And I don't know when I've ever seen the words "communism" and "socialism" bandied about so much by people who seem to lack an understanding of either concept.

__________________
If I am not better, at least I am different. --Jean-Jacques Rousseau

ottopilot

I second that!

How the world views the US is not a monolithic perception. Just as we are essentially split down the middle politically, some in other countries like us just fine... some don't. I understand the sentiment about bringing the US up to speed... if that is your perception. I personally don't see the US as needing to be just like Europe, Asia, etc. There are many uniquely great things happening around the world... some not so great things too. The filters we choose to observe the world are often tempered with ideology. I embrace our uniqueness... the good, bad and the ugly.

I hope they still feel like partying if Obama looses. He's a history-maker regardless of the outcome.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

JBX

Corrrect! That is indeed true. Forced socialism private markets was not an answer to a free market. I'm outraged about it. The wrong about the banks doesn't make B.O.'s policies correct.

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

roachboy

well, it's hard to say what "the world" thinks, obviously.
this curious little experiment from the economist gives at least something to go on, though:

Vote Obama or McCain: Global Electoral College | The Economist

mc-cain shows well in algeria, the sudan and congo.
it's unlikely that the economist draws a particularly radical demographic---but this has had quite abit of press and isn't anything to take too seriously. but still...

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

JBX

OMG - That is me. Wait is there anything wrong with this?
The John Birch Society is a political education and action organization founded by Robert W. Welch Jr. in Indianapolis, Indiana in 1958. The society does not endorse specific political candidates, but is frequently associated with traditionally conservative causes such as anti-communism, and support for individual rights and the ownership of private property.[1] It promotes U.S. independence and sovereignty and opposes globalism, especially international regional groups such as the European Union or what the society claims is a proposed North American Union.[2]

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

Baraka_Guru

It's rather tiresome, yes. I think many believe the terms are synonymous, even. This is how you get people calling Obama a communist...like he hates capitalism and wants to overthrow the system.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

girldetective

I often take a peek at world publications to see what everybody thinks because we are part of this world. I like that my presidential pick is on par with the rest of the world, it doesnt surprise me. Who would want to continue to try to work with more of the same, or at least with the same mealy-ass facade?!

Go O.

__________________
As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Poppinjay

I always take the Economist seriously. It's the only publication that sticks it to us in a fair manner.

Kind of odd that the only continent going for McCain in any sort of way is Africa.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

ottopilot

I wonder how different the results of "world opinion" would be if the choices were between McCain and Madonna.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

Otto...I think it matters what the "world opinion" is of the US....not of us as individuals, but of our top elected leader and the policies and actions of that person.

Perhaps you dont think its important.

We dont like in a vacuum protected by two oceans anymore.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

I think opinions are important, but we must consider how opinions are derived. The popular celebrity-driven world-media loves Obama. Sixpack de Joe in France is as about as informed on the intricacies of US laws and politics as Joe Sixpack in Washington DC regarding France. They're probably more up to date on their local versions of Dancing with the Stars.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Baraka_Guru

Would either Joe read (ou lit) economist.com and vote on this poll?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

roachboy

actually, otto, that's probably not true. if you read any french newspapers--at all--you'll see that the degree of coverage given the us far far exceeds the coverage given international politics--and everyday life---anywhere in the american press. across the spectrum, the french press is also far more political. from the years i've spent in france, i concluded that while there is a celebrity cult, it's not the same as the american.

and across the board, folk that i would just run into and talk with about stuff knew way more about the us that the parallel set of folk i'd run into and talk about stuff with here know about, well, most anyplace beyond the us.

the us is just simply parochial---obviously not everyone, everywhere---but in the main, in my experience, it's just like that. i think this is a basic education problem. i would hope that changes.
it kinda has to, or the americans will find themselves irrelevant.

nationalism is a thing of the past. catch up now or catch up later.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

abaya

I must respectfully disagree. A large number of my friends and acquaintances (not to mention my entire family, on both sides) are international citizens, including Europeans... and they know FAR more about what's going on in US politics than your average American knows about what's going on in other countries' politics, let alone American politics. It's not about "celebrity" status. American elections and policies have direct implications on just about every other country in the world, and it's very much in the interest of those populations to know and understand what is going on in our nation.

And yeah, see what rb said.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

ottopilot

I understand your opinion/perception, but how many people are you representing and what are their political leanings? What are their media sources? It works the same here as it does there. I can't help but to believe that the majority of the "world opinion" represented in the featured poll was influenced by popular media. Fortunately/unfortunately, mainstream world-media sources are info-tainment driven by profit centers with demographics. I believe it's very popular for the average world citizen to support Obama. He is an exciting candidate.

I'm not saying they are wrong to support Obama, but I question how well they know the candidate as the average US citizen knew anything about Nicolas Sarkozy. If you have a bias that US citizens are generally uniformed, then that's another point of discussion.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

guyy

You need to get out of US media space. Yes, readers of Die Tageszeitung or Il Manifesto or Akahata are not likely to be McCain supporters. But even readers of bland conservative papers like Canada's Globe & Mail are far more informed about the US politics than Americans are about politics in Canada. People in Canada knew whose semen was on whose dress, what colour that dress was, who Kenneth Starr was, etc. etc. Could the average American name even one Canadian political scandal? I doubt it.

Most of Canada speaks English, so access to Canadian news is pretty easy. In some parts of the US you can even tune in to CBC. How many Americans do that? There are fewer still who will try to read news in another language. Considering that native English speakers in the US tend to be monolingual while many folks in other countries have at least a reading knowledge of English, i don't see how you can possibly say the information flows are equivalent.

ottopilot

If I could only get the Mars Herald or those extra intergalactic cable channels...

As you probably guessed, I am a card carrying member of the conservative wing of the American Political Monoculture!

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

roachboy

otto--it's easier than that.
just read more broadly.
for what it's worth, the most important single experience i had with the american media shell came at the start of the first gulf war, when i happened to land in paris. french tv coverage was more removed--they had retired generals standing in front of 3-d maps of kuwait holding croupiers and moving little plastic tanks around the map as they explained tactics. at some point, a live feed of cnn became available, so that just by being there i could switch in and out of a media context that was quite different when i had been in the states just a few days previously. i am not sure i can explain to you how strange this experience was, being able to turn american coverage on and off, being in a quite different media environment and so relativizing what the american context was simply by virtue of not being in a space that was structured by and around it.

i think that experience changed many things.

i dont write this to convince you of anything, but more to explain my relation to what you sometimes write.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

MrFriendly

I think you'll find that in Australia, a large number of average Australians resent US political influence, and the fact that our last Federal Government was only to happy to kiss the arse of George W Bush is still a rather large sore spot for a lot of us.

Both foreign and domestic US policy is talked about quite a lot in the media here, and in quite some depth in some publications. We kind of have to know what's going on because our economy will quite often shadow your economy. The heart of all this is that US policy affects us, a lot. So, every time a US election springs up, all we really get to do is sit back with white knuckles hoping that the next guy to get into power doesn't fuck things up any worse.

And also, I'd like to know why Americans have this morbid fear of socialised services? We have quite a number of important services here sill owned and run by federal and state governments, it's never been a big deal, and usually any attempted to privatise those services with met with fierce resistance.

__________________
You are not a slave

abaya

Same here in Iceland. Big time. I mean, fuck... we're going bankrupt right now, with no small thanks going to the meltdown in the US. You think Icelanders don't give a shit about what goes on in US politics? No, even Jón the Fisherman has a damn good idea of how US politics works, far more than Joe the Plumber knows about what goes on in Iceland. FAR MORE. Not all of us have that morbid fear. I would welcome it with open arms, believe me.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Baraka_Guru

It's been hinted at before, but even Joe the Lumberjack up here in Canada knows a great deal about what's going on. We all follow it--even casually--because it has an impact that goes beyond economics, even.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Nimetic

To be honest, I just want it to be over.

JBX

A talking head finally asked some tough questions of Biden that should have been asked of B.O. , it's some good stuff.

__________________
"Youth and Strength is no match for Age and Treachery"

dc_dux

Yeah...I thought it was good stuff how Biden called her out on the bullshit about ACORN and Obama being a marxist.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Charlatan

I'm not sure what that video has to do with the opening post but it was nice to see Biden shut down her asinine questions.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

guyy

People are really into it. I went to the post office to pick up a package for my daughter and forgot my wallet. I had my US passport in my shirt pocket. When the post office guy asked to see some ID i took out the passport. "Did you vote?!" It was the same at the stationers when i stopped in to pick up a notepad just as a Quebecoise resident of the US was emphatically expressing her dislike for living south of the border. The proprietor and i laughed and i told him i was American. "Did you vote?!" He was happy to have been a witness for some of his customers' absentee ballots. Both of these guys were Greek, and the Greeks here in Montreal are very political. All the same, i hear people in the cafes are talking about it, too.