ACORN - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Rekna · 10-14-2008, 10:53 AM

The McCain campaign has been attacking ACORN lately while trying to tie Obama to ACORN. I trust the McCain campaign will also attack the speaker twoard the middle & end of this video for his support of ACORN.

YouTube - McCainAcorn

aceventura3 · 10-14-2008, 12:38 PM

I think McCain is "attacking" the voter fraud issue. They are asking Obama to take a stand against any illegal activity, criticizing the ACORN organization if the allegations are false. The longer Obama fails to show leadership on the issue the bigger it gets.

Yea, doesn't this support McCain's claim of being a maverick, being willing to reach-out to those on the other side. Doesn't this indicate that he would be willing to listen to the voices of those many on the right would consider extreme?

On another note, what is going to happen in groups like ACORN, given their anger, when Democrats control Congress and the White House? Who are they going to be angry at, when things don't really change? Does anyone believe under Obama/Biden/Pelosi/Reid that the "rich" won't get richer? That wars won't end? The big corporations wont make profits? That the business cycle won't end? That Chicago schools will still be among the worst in the nation?

Time for a reality check, don't you agree?

Rekna · 10-14-2008, 12:41 PM

How did ACORN break the law?

Derwood · 10-14-2008, 12:42 PM

Voter Registration Fraud =/= Voter Fraud

Rekna · 10-14-2008, 12:44 PM

=/=?

do you mean != or ~=?

YaWhateva · 10-14-2008, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

=/=?

do you mean != or ~=?

=/= is the same as != I believe. It means does not equal.

Rekna · 10-14-2008, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YaWhateva

=/= is the same as != I believe. It means does not equal.

Never seen it written like that before...

aceventura3 · 10-14-2008, 01:33 PM

The acts of a few should not necessarily reflect negatively on an entire organization. However, the leaders of the organization and its supporters should stand up for the organization and address any wrong doing. What has Obama done? what has the leaders of ACORN done?

kutulu · 10-14-2008, 01:54 PM

ACORN is cooperating. Shit the whole reason why the govt knows about the phony registrations is because ACORN alerted them about their existence.

Quote:

The Republican voter fraud hoax
Donald Duck and the Dallas Cowboys won't steal the election for Obama. Acorn's only crime is registering Democratic voters

Brad Friedman
guardian.co.uk,
Monday October 13 2008 20.30 BST

Barack Obama and the Democrats are stealing the election. Massive voter fraud is being carried out, even as we speak, by their henchmen, known by the innocuous sounding Association for Community Organisations for Reform Now, or Acorn. Clever bastards.

The only problem? Despite the screaming wall-to-wall coverage of "Democratic voter fraud in 11 swing states" as seen on Fox News and even the once-respectable CNN, none of it's true. None of it.

In just the last week, we've had a phoney stunt raid in swing state Nevada (where Acorn had been cooperating with officials for months, concerning problem canvassers they'd long ago fired); a Republican election official in swing state Missouri tell Fox News that she's being beseiged with fraudulent registration forms from Acorn (in a county where they've not done any registration work since August); a Republican sheriff in swing state Ohio, who, the very next day, suddenly requested the names and addresses of hundreds of early voters (with evidence of exactly zero wrong doing, but lots of Democratic-leaning college student in the particular county, and John McCain's state campaign chair as a partner in the investigation); and a screaming front page headline in Rupert Murdoch's New York Post about a guy who claims he was somehow tricked by Acorn into registering 72 times (but read the article closely to note he says he registered at the same address each time, which, even if true, would allow him - you guessed it - precisely one legal vote.)

It's an old Republican scam, but it's never been carried out with more zeal than this year. The Republicans have been putting so much time, money and resources into the propaganda leading up to this over the last four years, we should have expected no less.

As luck would have it, the Democrats have a man who, as an attorney years ago, actually had the temerity to join the US department of justice in representing Acorn in a successful lawsuit, forcing the state of Illinois to follow the law by allowing citizens to register to vote at the department of motor vehicles. What a scoundrel.

That, of course, was before the department of justice, under George Bush's corrupt command, would itself become politicised by the very Republicans so desperate to keep low-income voters from voting, that they were willing to fire their own US attorneys for failing to bring phoney charges of voter fraud in key swing states like Nevada and Missouri.

So what are the crimes that have caused all the Sturm und Drang on US television and talk radio, and in several otherwise respectable newspapers and even by the McCain campaign itself?

The only actual crime here is that Acorn managed to register some 1.3m low-income (read: Democratic-leaning) voters over the past two years. The rest is, pretty much, just made up.

But in the bloody and desperate trenches of the Republican war on democracy, that's more than enough to kick in a last minute surge of lies that may - with the help of a compliant and lazy corporate US media - wreak enough havoc, scare enough voters, confuse enough people and plant enough seeds to call an Obama victory into doubt on November 4.

If you can't win it, steal it. If you can't steal it, claim the other guy stole it. If you can't claim the other guy stole it (yet), say they're about to and then kick up smoke that maybe someone will believe you. (Heckuva job, CNN.)

Here are the facts. Acorn verifies the legitimacy of every registration its canvassers collect. If they can't authenticate the registration, or it's incomplete or questionable in other ways, they flag that form as problematic ("fraudulent", "incomplete", et cetera). They then hand in all registration forms, even the problematic ones, to elections officials, as they are required to do by law. In almost every case where you've heard about fraud by Acorn, it's because Acorn itself notified officials about the fraud that's been perpetrated on them by rogue canvassers. Most officials who run to the media screaming "Acorn is committing fraud" know all of the above but don't bother to share those facts with the media they've run to. None of this is about voter fraud. None of it. Where any fraud has occurred, it's voter registration fraud and has resulted in exactly zero fraudulent votes.

You'll hear that Donald Duck, Mary Poppins, Dick Tracy, Mickey Mouse and (new this year) the starting lineup of the Dallas Cowboys football team have all had fraudulent registrations submitted in their names. That's true. And we know this, why? Because Acorn told officials about it when they followed the law and turned in those registrations, flagged as fraudulent.

What you won't hear is that federal law requires anybody who does not register to vote in person at the county office to show an ID when they go to vote the first time. So, unless Donald Duck shows up with his ID, he won't be voting this November. You needn't worry, no matter how much even John McCain himself cynically and dishonourably tries to mislead you.

If it quacks like a duck, in this case, it's likely another Republican Acorn voter fraud lie. They haul it out every two years.

Just days before the 2004 presidential election, rightwing whack job Michelle Malkin claimed that Acorn was registering terrorists to vote in swing state Ohio. Problem was, that was a lie.

In 2006, again just days before the election, the new US attorney in swing state Missouri (recently appointed, since the one before him refused to bring such charges), filed voter fraud indictments against Acorn workers in the state. Problem was, bringing election-related indictments that close to an election was a violation of the department of justice's own written policy. And Acorn had nothing to do with it, other than turning in the employees to officials.

Getting the picture? It's a hoax. All of it.

But it's been an effective one, as it's served to distract from very real concerns about tens of thousands of voters who have been illegally purged from the voting rolls in dozens of states, as the New York Times reported in a remarkable front page investigative story. That story followed a report the week before from CBS News detailing still more wholesale purges of voting rolls in some 20 states.

That will be the November surprise, when thousands, if not millions show up to vote only to find they are no longer welcome to do so and are forced to vote on a "provisional ballot" which may or may not be counted.

These real concerns of election fraud, such as voting roll purges, electronic voting machines that don't work and so much more that actually matters, have been obscured by the smoke and mirrors and sleight of hand of the Republican party's phoney Acorn voter fraud charade.

And where they can, they'll parlay it all into new photo ID restrictions at the polls (knowing full well that some 20m, largely Democratic-leaning voters don't own the type of ID they'd need to jump over that next Republican hurdle.)

Yet, with all of the unsubstantiated, wholly bogus claims of voter fraud being carried out by Democrats, there remains at least one case of absolutely ironclad, documented, yet still-unprosecuted case of voter fraud that, for some reason, Republicans don't much like to talk about.

We can only wonder why.

roachboy · 10-14-2008, 02:07 PM

and the reasons that the republicans are pissed about acorn has to do with the illegal firing of the new mexico attorney general by gonzalez because he did not prosecute acorn for such a situation for lack of evidence.

if there was real voter fraud, then it should have been prosecuted. fact is that conservative have no legal case, they have nothing to really go on, but they just hate the idea of autonomy for poorer folk. given that, the resulting smear campaign is not in any way surprising.

btw i am not a huge fan of alinsky, but i support what acorn does in general.

Rekna · 10-14-2008, 02:39 PM

The California GOP had this same problem in 2004 and republicans didn't complain about the voter registration fraud then....

jewels · 10-15-2008, 02:00 AM

WTF does Obama have to do with this?

There's no fraud, just a miscounted number of new registrations. Just more smoke in the road. It's simple and I've seen it personally for the past six years. The homeless they hire get paid per registration. Maybe they ought to come up with a new pay plan, but it's not criminal behavior, nor is it fraud.

Unless the registrant shows up with ID. Hasn't happened yet.

ASU2003 · 10-15-2008, 03:08 AM

They just need to bring up the fact that people in the big cities have to wait in line for 2 hours to get to vote, while the people in the suburbs and countryside may have to drive a little farther, but get right in and out.

Rekna · 10-15-2008, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

WTF does Obama have to do with this?

There's no fraud, just a miscounted number of new registrations. Just more smoke in the road. It's simple and I've seen it personally for the past six years. The homeless they hire get paid per registration. Maybe they ought to come up with a new pay plan, but it's not criminal behavior, nor is it fraud.

Unless the registrant shows up with ID. Hasn't happened yet.

actually they get paid per hour not per registration.

Derwood · 10-15-2008, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

=/=?

do you mean != or ~=?

I mean "does not equal"

aceventura3 · 10-15-2008, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

WTF does Obama have to do with this?

This issue is an attempt to get the Obama campaign off point and to get Obama rattled. McCain is trying to win. You may say that this is unfair politics. It is. But life is not fair. If Obama stays on point, stays calm, he will get through this with no harm done. We will see if the issue comes up in the debate, if he handles the question well - the issue is dead tomorrow. Right now he is "hiding" in my view, not taking direct questions and coasting to election day. I don't like that. And, yes Republicans play political games, I can admit it. Democrats do it too, can you admit that before getting all "there they go again...Rove...Etc...Etc".

roachboy · 10-15-2008, 07:41 AM

what obama is doing, ace, is not allowing the mc-cain campaign to force idiotic turns in the issues. it is the mc-cain camp that is at the disadvantage, the mc-cain camp which is finding it's ship sinking, and so the mc-cain camp which is in a desperate position. unable to work out that a big part of the explanation for this situation is the strategy of the campaign itself, they just go on and on. mostly about nothing. this particular "issue" is nothing.

it's a shame that in order to support mc-cain you feel compelled to repeat whatever the campaign says or does as if you came up with the idea, ace.

docbungle · 10-15-2008, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

Does anyone believe under Obama/Biden/Pelosi/Reid that the "rich" won't get richer? That wars won't end? The big corporations wont make profits? That the business cycle won't end? That Chicago schools will still be among the worst in the nation?

Time for a reality check, don't you agree?

Who, pray tell, have you been listening to? Certainly not Obama. Reality check, indeed.

aceventura3 · 10-15-2008, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

what obama is doing, ace, is not allowing the mc-cain campaign to force idiotic turns in the issues. it is the mc-cain camp that is at the disadvantage, the mc-cain camp which is finding it's ship sinking, and so the mc-cain camp which is in a desperate position. unable to work out that a big part of the explanation for this situation is the strategy of the campaign itself, they just go on and on. mostly about nothing. this particular "issue" is nothing.

it's a shame that in order to support mc-cain you feel compelled to repeat whatever the campaign says or does as if you came up with the idea, ace.

I doubt the McCain campaign would endorse what I wrote above, so I am not sure how you reached you conclusion or if you even read what I wrote.

You call the McCain campaign attempting to gain traction "idiotic", I call call it what it is-an attempt to win by causing Obama to lose focus or make a mistake. I continue to be amused by Obama supporters who don't seem to realize this is a competition, a winner and a loser, and that the one behind will try new strategies to get the upper hand. And, of course your guy would never actually try to win.

Poppinjay · 10-15-2008, 08:10 AM

Quote:

But life is not fair.

I find that largely, it is. Except when dealing with Republicans who stick fast to the rule that all wealth is made by segmented suffering.

But c'mon, a Republican whining about voter fraud? That's rich, and not in a 7 homes kind of way. More in an Alanis Morrisette song way.

aceventura3 · 10-15-2008, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

Who, pray tell, have you been listening to? Certainly not Obama. Reality check, indeed.

I took a few liberties with what I read here. To me it seems that most of what is wrong is or has been the fault of Bush, Republicans, and now McCain. So, when Bush is out of office, Republicans have no power in Congress, and McCain loses the election, how is the world going to change? I think Democrats have over-promised. My hyperbole and rhetoric aside, don't you agree with that?

roachboy · 10-15-2008, 08:13 AM

what i said, ace, was idiotic turns in the issues. what i meant was that the mc-cain people know they cannot win unless they are able to get one or more of these empty turd-bombs they've been tossing out to stick. there's no motivation for obama to acknowledge most of them. if i were running his show, i wouldn't do it.

aceventura3 · 10-15-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

I find that largely, it is.

Are you Paris Hilton? Member of the royal family? A Kennedy? Life is fair?

Quote:

Except when dealing with Republicans who stick fast to the rule that all wealth is made by segmented suffering.

Most Republicans I know, simply go to work, care for their families, save, invest, try to enjoy life, are optimistic and look to a better tomorrow. The I don't know the ones you reference.

Quote:

But c'mon, a Republican whining about voter fraud? That's rich, and not in a 7 homes kind of way. More in an Alanis Morrisette song way.

I will say it again. ACORN is an issue designed to get Obama off of his game. It is a political strategy to win an election. The efforts of ACORN won't impact the election based on any illegal activity. For whatever the reason, the issue has liberals concerned. Perhaps the strategy is working.

YaWhateva · 10-15-2008, 08:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I continue to be amused by Obama supporters who don't seem to realize this is a competition, a winner and a loser, and that the one behind will try new strategies to get the upper hand.

What I find funny is that these aren't 'new' strategies at all. It's the same tired diatribe that has been happening for some time now.

aceventura3 · 10-15-2008, 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

what i said, ace, was idiotic turns in the issues. what i meant was that the mc-cain people know they cannot win unless they are able to get one or more of these empty turd-bombs they've been tossing out to stick. there's no motivation for obama to acknowledge most of them. if i were running his show, i wouldn't do it.

This is what I love about strategy. You may be correct or you may be wrong. If I were Obama I would be more aggressive, out front and ahead of these issues and not give the impression that I fear them. If I were Obama I would have early on stated the good works done by ACORN, condemn the questionable acts of a few of the members, request authorities to investigate and then move on.

Rekna · 10-15-2008, 08:24 AM

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what laws ACORN broke..... ace care to tell me?

aceventura3 · 10-15-2008, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YaWhateva

What I find funny is that these aren't 'new' strategies at all. It's the same tired diatribe that has been happening for some time now.

On one hand people say McCain is all over the place and not focused and now you say he is doing the same old tired stuff. Which is it?

Poppinjay · 10-15-2008, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Are you Paris Hilton? Member of the royal family? A Kennedy? Life is fair?

No, I'm "Joe Sixpack" or maybe "Eddie Lunchbucket". I get as much as I give out of life, and will someday die to make room for somebody else. I like to call him Ben Baloney Sandwich. Life is fair. How is it not?

Quote:
Except when dealing with Republicans who stick fast to the rule that all wealth is made by segmented suffering.

Quote:

Most Republicans I know, simply go to work, care for their families, save, invest, try to enjoy life, are optimistic and look to a better tomorrow. The I don't know the ones you reference.

Well, John McCain for one. Ronald Reagan was huge on that idea. He was all over that. It's us against them. The other guys. The enemies.

aceventura3 · 10-15-2008, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what laws ACORN broke..... ace care to tell me?

People break laws, not organizations. I believe some members of ACORN are accused of forging voter registration documents.
-----Added 15/10/2008 at 12 : 28 : 24-----

Quote:

Originally Posted by Poppinjay

Well, John McCain for one. Ronald Reagan was huge on that idea. He was all over that. It's us against them. The other guys. The enemies.

I am sure that is what McCain was thinking when he was a POW who refused release because he was not entitled.

docbungle · 10-15-2008, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I took a few liberties with what I read here. To me it seems that most of what is wrong is or has been the fault of Bush, Republicans, and now McCain. So, when Bush is out of office, Republicans have no power in Congress, and McCain loses the election, how is the world going to change? I think Democrats have over-promised. My hyperbole and rhetoric aside, don't you agree with that?

Well, that should go without saying, shouldn't it? I mean, everyone running for office over-promises. Who hasn't, in your lifetime? I think that point is moot. McCain has over-promised as well. Obviously. The difference is by how much. Obama is striving to be the best he can be. McCain is striving to finish in first place. I see a major difference in their approaches. McCain has thrown so many things out there, it's all just barely holding together with duct tape and barbed wire.

Your simplistic implications that Obama has promised to "end war" and stop people from "getting rich" and stop companies from "making money" are ridiculous. What this shows, more than anything, is a buying into of the McCain camps utter nonsense: keep repeating falsehoods until people start believing them. And if you don't believe them, then why are you repeating them here, in the form of an actual argument supporting your view?

Rekna · 10-15-2008, 08:36 AM

Why would someone forge a voter registration to say Mickey Mouse? It isn't like they would be able to vote on that.

The claim that ACORN employees created fraudulent registrations is just as likely as Republicans purposefully filled out false registrations with ACORN employees in order to make them look bad.

Poppinjay · 10-15-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

I am sure that is what McCain was thinking when he was a POW who refused release because he was not entitled.

Or when he agreed to give info to his captors? Senator "That One"? Probably not. In all honesty, I don't think he agrees with the Reagan strategy and it probably is distasteful for him to throw out these muddy slings, but this is his last shot. Palin isn't performing up to expectations as the attack dog, so he has to take on some of the duties.

YaWhateva · 10-15-2008, 08:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

On one hand people say McCain is all over the place and not focused and now you say he is doing the same old tired stuff. Which is it?

Okay then I will call him two-faced. He sits there on his stump saying, 'who is obama' and having his campaign bring up all this nonsense about Obama and then he acts like he has no clue where people come up with these ideas that Obama is a 'terrorist' and an 'Arab' and people yelling that they want him dead. His campaign planted those seeds in his follower's minds and then he acts like he is surprised at their violent outcries.

And yes, he is very erratic in his policies, not in the 'fundamentals' if his attack smears.

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I am sure that is what McCain was thinking when he was a POW who refused release because he was not entitled.

He refused because he would have had to break the Code of Conduct by saying that what America was doing was wrong and giving info to the Vietnamese. This would have probably gotten him court marshaled and would have ended his military career and possibly his future political career. You act like he was the only one who did that. Most of them refused. He was just another POW, nothing special, as Phil Butler, McCain's classmate and another soldier who was taken prisoner said. And he ended up giving information anyways.

roachboy · 10-15-2008, 08:54 AM

it isn't working, ace:

Quote:

Poll Says McCain Hurts His Bid by Using Attacks
By MICHAEL COOPER and MEGAN THEE

The McCain campaign’s recent angry tone and sharply personal attacks on Senator Barack Obama appear to have backfired and tarnished Senator John McCain more than their intended target, the latest New York Times/CBS News poll has found.

After several weeks in which the McCain campaign unleashed a series of strong political attacks on Mr. Obama, trying to tie him to a former 1960s radical, among other things, the poll found that more voters see Mr. McCain as waging a negative campaign than Mr. Obama. Six in 10 voters surveyed said that Mr. McCain had spent more time attacking Mr. Obama than explaining what he would do as president; by about the same number, voters said Mr. Obama was spending more of his time explaining than attacking.

Over all, the poll found that if the election were held today, 53 percent of those determined to be probable voters said they would vote for Mr. Obama and 39 percent said they would vote for Mr. McCain.

The findings come as the race enters its final three weeks, with the two candidates scheduled to hold their third and last debate on Wednesday night, and as separate polls in critical swing states that could decide the election give Mr. Obama a growing edge. But wide gaps in polls have historically tended to narrow in the closing weeks of the race.

Voters who said their opinions of Mr. Obama had changed recently were twice as likely to say they had grown more favorable as to say they had worsened. And voters who said that their views of Mr. McCain had changed were three times more likely to say that they had worsened than to say they had improved.

The top reasons cited by those who said they thought less of Mr. McCain were his recent attacks and his choice of Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska as his running mate. (The vast majority said their opinions of Mr. Obama of Illinois, the Democratic nominee, and Mr. McCain of Arizona, the Republican nominee, had remained unchanged in recent weeks.) But in recent days, Mr. McCain and Ms. Palin have scaled back their attacks on Mr. Obama, although Mr. McCain suggested he might aggressively take on Mr. Obama in Wednesday’s debate.

With the election unfolding against the backdrop of an extraordinary economic crisis, a lack of confidence in government, and two wars, the survey described a very inhospitable environment for any Republican to run for office. More than 8 in 10 Americans do not trust the government to do what is right, the highest ever recorded in a Times/CBS News poll. And Mr. McCain is trying to keep the White House in Republican hands at a time when President Bush’s job approval rating is at 24 percent, hovering near its historic low.

While the poll showed Mr. Obama with a 14 percentage-point lead among likely voters in a head-to-head matchup with Mr. McCain, when Ralph Nader and Bob Barr, the Libertarian candidate, were included in the question, the race narrowed slightly, with 51 percent of those surveyed saying that they were supporting Mr. Obama and 39 percent supporting Mr. McCain, with Mr. Nader getting the support of 3 percent and Mr. Barr 1 percent. Other national polls have shown Mr. Obama ahead by a smaller margin.

The poll suggested that the overwhelming anxiety about the economy and distrust of government have created a potentially poisonous atmosphere for members of Congress. Only 43 percent of those surveyed said that they approved of their own representative’s job performance, which is considerably lower than approval ratings have been at other times of historic discontent. By way of comparison, just before the Democrats lost control of Congress in 1994, 56 percent of those polled said that they approved of the job their representative was doing.

And after nearly eight years of increasingly unpopular Republican rule in the White House, 52 percent of those polled said that they held a favorable view of the Democratic Party, compared with 37 percent who said they held a favorable view of the Republican Party. Voters said they preferred Democrats to Republicans when it came to questions about who would better handle the issues that are of the greatest concern to voters — including the economy, health care and the war in Iraq.

The nationwide telephone poll was conducted Friday through Monday with 1,070 adults, of whom 972 were registered voters, and it has a margin of sampling error of plus or minus three percentage points for both groups.

After several weeks in which the McCain campaign sought to tie Mr. Obama to William Ayers, a founder of the Weather Underground terrorism group, 64 percent of voters said that they had either read or heard something about the subject. But a majority said they were not bothered by Mr. Obama’s background or past associations. Several people said in follow-up interviews that they felt that Mr. McCain’s attacks on Mr. Obama were too rooted in the past, or too unconnected to the nation’s major problems.

“What bothers me is that McCain initially talked about running a campaign on issues and I want to hear him talk about the issues,” said Flavio Lorenzoni, a 59-year-old independent from Manalapan, N.J. “But we’re being constantly bombarded with attacks that aren’t relevant to making a decision about what direction McCain would take the country. McCain hasn’t addressed the real issues. He’s only touched on them very narrowly. This is a time when we need to address issues much more clearly than they ever have been in the past.”

The poll found that Mr. Obama is now supported by majorities of men and independents, two groups that he has been fighting to win over. And the poll found, for the first time, that white voters are just about evenly divided between Mr. McCain and Mr. Obama, who, if elected, would be the first black president. The poll found that Mr. Obama is supported by 45 percent of white voters — a greater percentage than has voted for Democrats in recent presidential elections, according to exit polls.

Mr. McCain was viewed unfavorably by 41 percent of voters, and favorably by 36 percent. Ms. Palin’s favorability rating is now 32 percent, down 8 points from last month, and her unfavorable rating climbed nine percentage points to 41 percent. Mr. Obama’s favorability rating, by contrast, is now at 50 percent, the highest recorded for him thus far by The Times and CBS News.

There were still some strong findings for Mr. McCain. Sixty-four percent of voters polled said Mr. McCain, 72, was well-prepared for the presidency, which has been a central theme of his campaign. Fifty-one percent said Mr. Obama, 47, was.

But roughly 7 in 10 voters said Mr. Obama had the right kind of temperament and personality to be president; just over half said the same of Mr. McCain.

Mr. Obama’s supporters continued to be more enthusiastic about him than Mr. McCain’s supporters, the poll found, and more of those surveyed said they had confidence in Mr. Obama than in Mr. McCain to make the right decisions about the economy and health care. And while more than 6 in 10 said Mr. Obama understood the needs and problems of people like them, more than half said Mr. McCain did not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/15/us...15poll.html?hp

more generally:
Pollster.com - Political Polls, Trends, Charts and Analysis

if a player in a game undertakes a strategy and continues with that strategy despite a changing situation, and despite evidence that the strategy is a problem in the changing situation, then that player is not a very good player.

having a strategy without using it well is no better than not having one.

jewels · 10-15-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

actually they get paid per hour not per registration.

I worked in a public government site for the past six years. ACORN registrars were there constantly due to the proximity to the downtown area and access to thousands of people daily.

I've spoken with many of them and they all told me they got paid for each person registered. One or two even told me they'd make up some names to round out their pay.

If they got paid per hour, why would they be hustling and harassing people for signatures anyway?

guyy · 10-15-2008, 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aceventura3

I will say it again. ACORN is an issue designed to get Obama off of his game. It is a political strategy to win an election. The efforts of ACORN won't impact the election based on any illegal activity. For whatever the reason, the issue has liberals concerned. Perhaps the strategy is working.

So what do you think of this strategy, Ace? It seems to be failing quite spectacularly.

Carry on!

Rekna · 10-15-2008, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jewels

I worked in a public government site for the past six years. ACORN registrars were there constantly due to the proximity to the downtown area and access to thousands of people daily.

I've spoken with many of them and they all told me they got paid for each person registered. One or two even told me they'd make up some names to round out their pay.

If they got paid per hour, why would they be hustling and harassing people for signatures anyway?

You may be right i'm just going off of what I have read. It is also possible that they got paid hourly but also had a quota.

aceventura3 · 10-15-2008, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by docbungle

Well, that should go without saying, shouldn't it? I mean, everyone running for office over-promises. Who hasn't, in your lifetime?

George Bush. He ran on an agenda to cut taxes and to be aggressive on national defense, he ran for re-election on "staying the course" in Iraq.

Quote:

I think that point is moot.

I think you are afraid to answer the question. Just like Pelosi over-promised when she became speaker, Democrats are on the verge of complete power in Washington, should I say it...based on lies?

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McCain has over-promised as well. Obviously.

Assuming nothing material changes, McCain is not going to be the next President. And, he certainly won't have control of Congress if by chance he does win.

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The difference is by how much. Obama is striving to be the best he can be. McCain is striving to finish in first place. I see a major difference in their approaches. McCain has thrown so many things out there, it's all just barely holding together with duct tape and barbed wire.

Was Obama being the "best" he could be when he won his state legislative post in Illinois, or did he play to win? He played to win. Obama is political, more so than many in elected political office.

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Your simplistic implications that Obama has promised to "end war" and stop people from "getting rich" and stop companies from "making money" are ridiculous. What this shows, more than anything, is a buying into of the McCain camps utter nonsense: keep repeating falsehoods until people start believing them. And if you don't believe them, then why are you repeating them here, in the form of an actual argument supporting your view?

Obama says things like he will make us "respected" again in the world. Or, he will engage our enemies in dialog using diplomacy, exhausting all options prior to using military force, as if that has not been done, including by Bush. O.k. I am simplistic and he is not...I get it...Obama is your guy...don't say anything critical of him...and perhaps those who criticize him should just go away...because those who criticize Obama are just (fill-in your favorite adjective)...

-----Added 15/10/2008 at 03 : 15 : 48-----

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Originally Posted by Rekna

Why would someone forge a voter registration to say Mickey Mouse? It isn't like they would be able to vote on that.

The claim that ACORN employees created fraudulent registrations is just as likely as Republicans purposefully filled out false registrations with ACORN employees in order to make them look bad.

O.k., they did nothing wrong and if they did, Republican did worse. I get it.

-----Added 15/10/2008 at 03 : 23 : 25-----

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Originally Posted by guyy

So what do you think of this strategy, Ace? It seems to be failing quite spectacularly.

Carry on!

I think McCain and his people are wasting their time with this issue.

McCain is not able to clearly articulate the case against Obama. As a Republican it is maddening that he is the nominee when we could have had someone much better able to present a clear case for the future.

The problem with McCAin has always been his "mavericky" style, translated to me to mean no convictions. When he said the fundamentals of the economy were strong and then backed-off of that he lost much of the remaining respect I had for him. If he had stood firm and explained to the American people why the economy is fundamentally strong, I bet he would be ahead and the market would not have over-corrected as it has.

dc_dux · 10-15-2008, 11:34 AM

ACORN has not committed any voter registration fraud.

It complies with the law, it has a more comprehenive review process than any voter advocacy organization in the country, it identifies any questionable registration forms it may receive and it turns them over to the appropriate state/local governing body in compliance with the law.

Oh...and I think they pay by the hour, not by the number of forms collected.

There is nothing here but more fear and smear.

filtherton · 10-15-2008, 12:23 PM

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Originally Posted by aceventura3

O.k. I am simplistic and he is not...I get it...Obama is your guy...don't say anything critical of him...and perhaps those who criticize him should just go away...because those who criticize Obama are just (fill-in your favorite adjective)...

This is great. You're such a maverick, with the being critical of Obama and all. Really, you're such a visionary, and if only all the Obama supporters could see that the man isn't jesus. It must be difficult, having such valid, cogent, and hard-hitting criticisms fall on hopelessly partisan ears.

The flip side of your dramatics is that you seem completely incapable of any sort of objectivity when it comes to talking about Obama. Anything that could possibly be viewed as a blemish on Obama's record is, and anyone who fails to completely acknowledge the validity of said blemish is just hopelessly caught up in the cult of Obama.

Interestingly enough, everything that is wrong with Obama is right about Palin.

10-14-2008, 12:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	I think McCain is "attacking" the voter fraud issue. They are asking Obama to take a stand against any illegal activity, criticizing the ACORN organization if the allegations are false. The longer Obama fails to show leadership on the issue the bigger it gets. Yea, doesn't this support McCain's claim of being a maverick, being willing to reach-out to those on the other side. Doesn't this indicate that he would be willing to listen to the voices of those many on the right would consider extreme? On another note, what is going to happen in groups like ACORN, given their anger, when Democrats control Congress and the White House? Who are they going to be angry at, when things don't really change? Does anyone believe under Obama/Biden/Pelosi/Reid that the "rich" won't get richer? That wars won't end? The big corporations wont make profits? That the business cycle won't end? That Chicago schools will still be among the worst in the nation? Time for a reality check, don't you agree? __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

10-14-2008, 01:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
aceventura3 Junkie Location: Ventura County	The acts of a few should not necessarily reflect negatively on an entire organization. However, the leaders of the organization and its supporters should stand up for the organization and address any wrong doing. What has Obama done? what has the leaders of ACORN done? __________________ "Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch." "It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion." "If you live among wolves you have to act like one." "A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

10-14-2008, 02:07 PM	#10 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	and the reasons that the republicans are pissed about acorn has to do with the illegal firing of the new mexico attorney general by gonzalez because he did not prosecute acorn for such a situation for lack of evidence. if there was real voter fraud, then it should have been prosecuted. fact is that conservative have no legal case, they have nothing to really go on, but they just hate the idea of autonomy for poorer folk. given that, the resulting smear campaign is not in any way surprising. btw i am not a huge fan of alinsky, but i support what acorn does in general. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-15-2008, 02:00 AM	#12 (permalink)
jewels Eponymous Location: Central Central Florida	WTF does Obama have to do with this? There's no fraud, just a miscounted number of new registrations. Just more smoke in the road. It's simple and I've seen it personally for the past six years. The homeless they hire get paid per registration. Maybe they ought to come up with a new pay plan, but it's not criminal behavior, nor is it fraud. Unless the registrant shows up with ID. Hasn't happened yet. __________________ We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess. Mark Twain

10-15-2008, 07:41 AM	#17 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	what obama is doing, ace, is not allowing the mc-cain campaign to force idiotic turns in the issues. it is the mc-cain camp that is at the disadvantage, the mc-cain camp which is finding it's ship sinking, and so the mc-cain camp which is in a desperate position. unable to work out that a big part of the explanation for this situation is the strategy of the campaign itself, they just go on and on. mostly about nothing. this particular "issue" is nothing. it's a shame that in order to support mc-cain you feel compelled to repeat whatever the campaign says or does as if you came up with the idea, ace. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-14-2008, 12:41 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	How did ACORN break the law?

10-14-2008, 12:42 PM	#4 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	Voter Registration Fraud =/= Voter Fraud

10-14-2008, 12:44 PM	#5 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	=/=? do you mean != or ~=?

10-14-2008, 02:39 PM	#11 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	The California GOP had this same problem in 2004 and republicans didn't complain about the voter registration fraud then....

10-15-2008, 03:08 AM	#13 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	They just need to bring up the fact that people in the big cities have to wait in line for 2 hours to get to vote, while the people in the suburbs and countryside may have to drive a little farther, but get right in and out.

10-15-2008, 08:13 AM	#22 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	what i said, ace, was idiotic turns in the issues. what i meant was that the mc-cain people know they cannot win unless they are able to get one or more of these empty turd-bombs they've been tossing out to stick. there's no motivation for obama to acknowledge most of them. if i were running his show, i wouldn't do it. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

10-15-2008, 08:24 AM	#26 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what laws ACORN broke..... ace care to tell me?

10-15-2008, 08:36 AM	#31 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Why would someone forge a voter registration to say Mickey Mouse? It isn't like they would be able to vote on that. The claim that ACORN employees created fraudulent registrations is just as likely as Republicans purposefully filled out false registrations with ACORN employees in order to make them look bad.

10-15-2008, 11:34 AM	#39 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	ACORN has not committed any voter registration fraud. It complies with the law, it has a more comprehenive review process than any voter advocacy organization in the country, it identifies any questionable registration forms it may receive and it turns them over to the appropriate state/local governing body in compliance with the law. Oh...and I think they pay by the hour, not by the number of forms collected. There is nothing here but more fear and smear. __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire