Should Friday's Presidential Debate Be Postponed? - Page 3 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Rekna · 09-25-2008, 05:27 PM

no I am right. Earlier today Republicans indicated that they were close to a deal and so did the democrats then McCain arrived and it all went away.

Google online for news stories and you will find lots like this:

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au...-20142,00.html

Quote:

TOP US lawmakers from both parties have announced a "fundamental agreement" on a billion bailout of the US financial sector.

They predicted the measure would pass both chambers of Congress.

"I believe that we will pass this legislation before the markets open on Monday," Senator Bob Corker said.

The group of nine lawmakers declined to offer details of the agreement, but a Senate aide familiar with the agreement said it would immediately provide billion ($300 billion) to the Treasury Department to purchase soured assets from a wide range of financial institutions.

An additional billion would be available with a certification from President George W. Bush that the money was needed to deal with the financial crisis. The remaining billion would be subject to a vote by Congress, which would have to choose to rescind the funds.

The aide said the bipartisan group also reached an agreement on allowing the federal government to take warrants from firms that may sell their assets, as well as limits on executive compensation for firms that participate.

Lawmakers still need to determine whether the executive compensation restrictions apply to all of the firms that participate in the program or just those whose assets are directly purchased by the United States government.

House Financial Services Committee chairman Barney Frank, discussing the agreement on CNBC, said there would be "no golden parachutes" and there would be expanded proxy access for shareholders to vote on executive pay.

"A restriction (is) on the situation in which the CEO takes risk and it pays off, he gets a lot of money, but if it goes bust, he doesn't lose any money," Mr Frank said on CNBC.

"That's not just a matter of dollars, that's giving a perverse incentive, that's encouraging more risk than should be taken rationally."

The group also agreed on an oversight regime for the Treasury purchase program, the aide said, including the creation of an inspector general and two oversight bodies to watchdog the program.

One oversight board would be appointed by Congress, while the other would effectively be a presidential appointment and include representatives from the Federal Reserve, Securities and Exchange Commission, and Federal Deposit Insurance Corp, the aide said.

The agreement also requires that Treasury use any profits from the program to reduce the national debt, calls for the Government Accountability Office to audit the program, and requires regular reports to Congress on the use of the funds.

In an effort to reduce the number of foreclosures, the lawmakers also agreed that the new program should require loan modification for homeowners whose mortgages are owned or controlled by the federal government, according to a separate Senate staff member familiar with the negotiations. They also agreed that a portion of any future profits from the program, if there are any, should be directed to fund federal affordable housing programs.

Staff were expected to work furiously to draft the proposal, which lawmakers said they were optimistic could quickly pass Congress and be signed by Bush.

"I now expect that we will indeed have a plan that can pass the House, pass the Senate, be signed by the President, bring a sense of certainty to this crisis, that is so roiling in the markets," Senator Robert Bennett told reporters.

The White House welcomed the news.

"It's good that progress is being made," said White House spokesman Tony Fratto. "We'll want to hear from the congressional leaders and Secretary Paulson and take a look at the details," he added, referring to Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson.

Senate Banking Committee chairman Christopher Dodd said negotiators now plan to present their plan to rank-and-file members of their parties as well as the Bush administration.

He said lawmakers were prepared to "act expeditiously" to allow the federal government to buy billions of dollars in distressed assets from financial companies.

Mr Frank, Mr Dodd and other key lawmakers travelled to the White House to meet with Bush and the two main US presidential candidates - Senator John McCain and Senator Barack Obama, for an afternoon meeting to discuss the bailout plan. President George W. Bush, speaking ahead of the meeting, said he was hopeful "that we can reach an agreement very shortly".

The one major stumbling block remaining could be House Republicans, who were reluctant to endorse the Wall Street rescue plan and were pushing alternative proposals.

Senator Richard Shelby, the ranking Republican on the Senate Banking Committee, said lawmakers still haven't reached an agreement on financial bailout legislation.

Speaking with reporters after a meeting in the White House, Senator Shelby reiterated his opposition to the billion plan.

"I don't believe we have an agreement," Senator Shelby said. "There are still a lot of different opinions."

Asked about Mr McCain and Mr Obama's participation in the meeting, Senator Shelby said: "They were very courteous with each other, very respectful."

There were multiple politicians on both sides that said a deal was close. And after McCain got in it was not.

-----Added 25/9/2008 at 09 : 28 : 53-----
Now it comes out the McCain is pushing his own plan which is basically less regulation and more corporate tax breaks. So we are going to reward their bad behavior? Isn't this like keeping the fox out of the hen house by adding more foxes?

Tully Mars · 09-25-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

no I am right. Earlier today Republicans indicated that they were close to a deal and so did the democrats then McCain arrived and it all went away.

Google online for news stories and you will find lots like this:

Deal agreed on Wall Street bailout plan | The Australian

There were multiple politicians on both sides that said a deal was close. And after McCain got in it was not.

-----Added 25/9/2008 at 09 : 28 : 53-----
Now it comes out the McCain is pushing his own plan which is basically less regulation and more corporate tax breaks. So we are going to reward their bad behavior? Isn't this like keeping the fox out of the hen house by adding more foxes?

Thanks for that post. It's hard for me to get news some days. I was watching the BBC in Spanish with English sub's at lunch today. What I got was he went down there to get the GOP on board.

And...

Quote:

Now it comes out the McCain is pushing his own plan which is basically less regulation and more corporate tax breaks. So we are going to reward their bad behavior? Isn't this like keeping the fox out of the hen house by adding more foxes?

Holy crap! Seriously, the answer is less oversight? The more he talks the more fearful I am of my savings and 401K.

Charlatan · 09-25-2008, 06:21 PM

Less oversight? Now we know who's buttering his bread.

roachboy · 09-25-2008, 06:34 PM

well, the media fog machine, which i've been watching a bit on tv this evening, seems to want us to see the house reactionaries as leading this because they're thinking primarily about "rebuilding the party"--they do not think mc-cain is trustworthy, not one of them---they owe nothing to bush and do not know paulson--bush is now worse than a lame duck.

from what the talking heads are saying, during the meeting, mc-cain sat there and the house rightwing republicans did the talking.

i think this was co-ordinated, but it's a little hard to say to what end exactly. i don't see mc-cain able to do much "leading" in this context, but who knows where the theater stops and starts in this?

while all this was going on, the feds seized washington mutual outright.

and as an aside, take a look at this unrelated article, which is beyond startling, and which surfaced this afternoon as well, while the shit was hitting the fan in washington:

Israel asked US for green light to bomb nuclear sites in Iran | World news | guardian.co.uk

lots of fog.

Willravel · 09-25-2008, 06:56 PM

The Page - by Mark Halperin - TIME

Very interesting...

Rekna · 09-25-2008, 09:08 PM

CNN reports that McCain was silent for the first 40+ minutes of the meeting and hardly said a thing at all. They are also saying that Obama did the opposite and was involved in the discussions and tried to bring both sides together.

So tell me who is Presidential out of these two and who is not?

Makedde · 09-25-2008, 09:17 PM

Obama says that a Presidental hopeful should be able to concentrate on more than one thing at the same time. I believe him to be correct about this. The debate should go ahead, there is no good reason why it shouldn't.

Unless of course, McCain only wants to postpone this debate so he can brush up on his debating skills...

filtherton · 09-25-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

CNN reports that McCain was silent for the first 40+ minutes of the meeting and hardly said a thing at all.

It's all part of McCain's maverick image. You should have seen him buzz the control tower, though. It was classic McCain.

Charlatan · 09-25-2008, 10:13 PM

Crisis Politics in action folks.

pan6467 · 09-25-2008, 10:55 PM

If this were a "normal" crisis I would agree that a president should multi-task. But this is a HUGE fucking crisis that the outcome can negatively affect our nation for YEARS. These men are paid to be on the Senate floor for these problems and should do the job they have NOW.... not be concerned about their own personal ambitions and seeking other jobs.

They have plenty of time for debates later, this crisis demands our governments full attention NOW..... not later. This is what we pay these people for, to do a job, not to pontificate and go elsewhere and ignore what they are originally elected to do.

These men could sit down together, put politics and partisanship aside and show true love of country by working on a plan TOGETHER as the leaders we expect them to be. FUCK POLITICS, FUCK THE ELECTION...... DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR ONCE AND WORK TO BETTER THE COUNTRY NOT DIVIDE IT FURTHER. Let them get together with Bush and the Congressional leaders, work a deal and come out with a plan that neither party, nor candidate takes credit for but both sides agree that the plan is the best they could come up with for the WHOLE country, not just their side.

But that won't happen. The powers that be behind the scenes won't allow it.

BTW..... what will the election matter if our economy and this crisis blows sky high before Nov. 4th? Why not demand our politicians work together and do what is right for the country?

Sorry, but I can't fathom ANYONE, stating they have the country's best interests at heart, yet, claiming that a being at a debate is more important right now. Nor can I fathom, ANYONE, saying that, "the college spent a million, they need to have the debate or that money was wasted." WTF??????? That million is chump change compared to the 700 BILLION, maybe a TRILLION when all is said and done that taxpayers will have to pay out.

Sorry, saving our economy and doing their jobs is the most important task they have right now. THESE MEN WANT TO BE OUR LEADER..... THEN THEY NEED TO SHOW FUCKING LEADERSHIP.

flstf · 09-26-2008, 02:03 AM

I don't know pan, it would probably take Obama more than a week and McCain more than a month to begin to understand what the problem is much less what to do about it. I believe one or both of them may have some economic advisors on their staff who worked for some of the companies generating toxic paper and they may have some insight.

Poppinjay · 09-26-2008, 02:25 AM

Quote:

Raise on White Castle burgers in Illinois. McDonald's best fries in the world. Jonny Rocket's best fast food burger. In-and out was o.k.. Now I live in NC. and hate pulled pork.

There's no talking to you.

And Pan, no matter how many times you insert the word "fuck" does not make you right nor your point relevant. Should they suspend sleep until the crisis is resolved? Should they wrap themselves in a little cocoon?

I think the worry is more that McCain's foreign affairs experience he wants so badly to tout would look irrelevant in a debate right now.

Also, time to turn in your avatar.

roachboy · 09-26-2008, 03:12 AM

or it could well be that the far right in the house is willing to play chicken with the administration, with the rest of congress, with the economic situation and so forth in order to (a) bring mc-cain to heel and (b) use the crisis inside the crisis to introduce their whacked-out "cut capital gains taxes and reduce regulation" line as if it were a real plan. and this may be happening because the mc-cain campaign decided to engage in the theater of "suspending" the campaign (by moving it to congress)---so maybe this is the price being exacted for mc-cain's little coup de thêatre.

and this is the point where the neo-liberal counter-crisis begins.
confronting an ideological waterloo, the gringrich-inspired wing of the right sends in the True Believers.
their only tactical advantages are surprise and the fact that they have their positions written down. tv works to their advantage because it can give them the illusion of sang-froid.
the weakness of the banking committee/negociation process is, seemingly, that the agreements which were reached were in principle and that the language of the actual bill isn't down yet.
so what set this up, intentionally or not (hard to say) is the 2.5 page, clearly unacceptable proposal from the administration.

mc-cain now finds himself in a terribly awkward situation--to move in the palin direction would require that he embrace the far right's move.
to act "presidential" he cannot embrace their move.
what i suspect the idea is that mc-cain will not "act presidential" but rather that he will carry shit for the far right---you want to be a leader, john? this is what you are doing to do, these are the positions you are going to advocate for, this is how you are going to do it, now go "lead" like a good boy.

what seems clear is that the only weapon these clowns have is going all bartelby in the middle of this accelerating situation of accelerating acceleration (everyone says so, one way or another---and that seems what all this is at bottom)....which means that they must see the writing on the wall and have decided that they've nothing to loose.

so the crisis of neoliberalism is now at a new level of explicitness.

and it is obvious that in this crisis, ideology trumps everything else.
conservatives have little room to manoever, no flexibility---this is the downside of collapsing economic ideology into identity.

Baraka_Guru · 09-26-2008, 03:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Sorry, but I can't fathom ANYONE, stating they have the country's best interests at heart, yet, claiming that a being at a debate is more important right now. Nor can I fathom, ANYONE, saying that, "the college spent a million, they need to have the debate or that money was wasted." WTF??????? That million is chump change compared to the 700 BILLION, maybe a TRILLION when all is said and done that taxpayers will have to pay out.

I'm sorry, but I don't know what a college's $1 million to host this debate has to do with taxpayers billions that will be used to bail out the economy. And this sounds like you're suggesting these two senators are the be all and end all of the fate of the economy. I'm rather accused by these assertions. They don't add up. They aren't even a part of the same formula.

Quote:

Sorry, saving our economy and doing their jobs is the most important task they have right now. THESE MEN WANT TO BE OUR LEADER..... THEN THEY NEED TO SHOW FUCKING LEADERSHIP.

So, you want them to wait a few months before holding a debate? When will be an opportune time to hold it? After there's a plan? Their plan? Will these two senators come up with their own plan? Will they spearhead a plan? Probably not.

The debate should go on. The American people need it. They need to know how each of these potential presidents would handle the "fucking" economy over the next four to eight years. Or is voting to put someone in such a powerful position meant to be a shot in the dark?

I think we have very different ideas of what leadership is.

ASU2003 · 09-26-2008, 03:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

CNN reports that McCain was silent for the first 40+ minutes of the meeting and hardly said a thing at all. They are also saying that Obama did the opposite and was involved in the discussions and tried to bring both sides together.

So tell me who is Presidential out of these two and who is not?

Some of the smartest people don't say very much until they have heard both sides and have thought about what the correct course of action is.

hannukah harry · 09-26-2008, 03:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

Some of the smartest people don't say very much until they have heard both sides and have thought about what the correct course of action is.

i thought about saying something about that too... like that saying about the difference between a wise man and a fool, being that the wise man doesnt' say anything and the fool keeps yappin (as a horrible paraphrase), but then i remembered reading that mccain said he'd support the bailout if it included his 5 points, but then later heard he told reports that he hadn't even read the proposed bailout. didn't seem so wise then.

asaris · 09-26-2008, 04:35 AM

I do find it odd that the parties were close to a consensus until McCain got there, and then all of a sudden couldn't get an agreement. It also says something that while Obama brought a Senate staffer, McCain brought a political staffer. My guess is that McCain wants to delay the debate until next week so that they'll have to cancel the V-P debate. There's no reason for Obama or McCain to be in DC 24 hrs a day. Neither one is on a relevant committee, and neither one has the necessary expertise. By all means they should brush up on it enough to cast an informed vote, but I don't see any reason why they have to be part of the negotiations.

Tully Mars · 09-26-2008, 05:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

They have plenty of time for debates later, this crisis demands our governments full attention NOW..... not later. This is what we pay these people for, to do a job, not to pontificate and go elsewhere and ignore what they are originally elected to do.

You realize the entire Senate isn't meeting and neither of these two men are on the committees involved in hammering out the hopeful solution to this crisis, right? Injecting the presidential selection process into this process may not result in a good solution, if there is a good solution. We may have let this get to the point where our only options are bad and worse. But I fail to see how adding more politicians to the mix, especially the two major candidates for POTUS, will result in the best plan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

These men could sit down together, put politics and partisanship aside and show true love of country by working on a plan TOGETHER as the leaders we expect them to be. FUCK POLITICS, FUCK THE ELECTION...... DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR ONCE AND WORK TO BETTER THE COUNTRY NOT DIVIDE IT FURTHER. Let them get together with Bush and the Congressional leaders, work a deal and come out with a plan that neither party, nor candidate takes credit for but both sides agree that the plan is the best they could come up with for the WHOLE country, not just their side.

Ok, so screw the debates, screw the election. How far are you willing to take that plan? Are you suggesting Bush remain in office until the crisis is over? Will we know when the crisis is over?

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

But that won't happen. The powers that be behind the scenes won't allow it.

I agree, it all about what happens behind the scenes. It's all about who can look like they're doing what's right by the country. It's all about who can get the best sound bite. Again, having the two major party candidates in the mix isn't a good idea at all, IMHO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

BTW..... what will the election matter if our economy and this crisis blows sky high before Nov. 4th? Why not demand our politicians work together and do what is right for the country?

It's going to matter because the world goes on, life doesn't stop because of a financial crisis. Every four years the US elects a President. When it's a new President, as it will be this year, he inherits whatever problems/benefits the last President leaves.

ottopilot · 09-26-2008, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rekna

no I am right. Earlier today Republicans indicated that they were close to a deal and so did the democrats then McCain arrived and it all went away.

Google online for news stories and you will find lots like this:

Deal agreed on Wall Street bailout plan | The Australian

There were multiple politicians on both sides that said a deal was close. And after McCain got in it was not.

-----Added 25/9/2008 at 09 : 28 : 53-----
Now it comes out the McCain is pushing his own plan which is basically less regulation and more corporate tax breaks. So we are going to reward their bad behavior? Isn't this like keeping the fox out of the hen house by adding more foxes?

Believe what you like... which seems to be the most important quality in a win-at-all-costs partisan war. No surprises here.

Tully Mars · 09-26-2008, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

Believe what you like... which seems to be the most important quality in a win-at-all-costs partisan war. No surprises here.

Hmm, trying to find answers this morning. I don't know what happened. I'm wondering if McCain had anything to do with this (and I seriously question whether his being there is a positive) or whether the GOP people who seemed on board got flooded with angry calls from voters who will be re-electing them (or not) soon.

Willravel · 09-26-2008, 07:47 AM

America: John, stop acting like a child and debate Barack.
McCain: McCain will go to debate - Politico Staff - Politico.com

Rekna · 09-26-2008, 07:48 AM

It seems to me that McCain would rather "Win an election than save the economy". How unpatriotic of him.

For those of you who think McCain is right what do you think of his plan that decreases regulation and removes capital gains taxes?

Glory's Sun · 09-26-2008, 07:51 AM

The Debate is going to be held as scheduled.

The only reason McCain didn't want to debate was so he could look like a hero in the bailout deal. Too bad the timing didn't work out for him.

pan6467 · 09-26-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

You realize the entire Senate isn't meeting and neither of these two men are on the committees involved in hammering out the hopeful solution to this crisis, right? Injecting the presidential selection process into this process may not result in a good solution, if there is a good solution. We may have let this get to the point where our only options are bad and worse. But I fail to see how adding more politicians to the mix, especially the two major candidates for POTUS, will result in the best plan.

Right now, these 2 men are supposed leaders of their respective parties. This is something that there is no "quick" fix for, but something BOTH men could go into and work so that a deal is made and something is done.

I feel injecting 2 senators that are looked at as leaders of their party should be there, presidential candidates or not.

Quote:

Ok, so screw the debates, screw the election. How far are you willing to take that plan? Are you suggesting Bush remain in office until the crisis is over? Will we know when the crisis is over?

Screw A DEBATE. By the end of this weekend hopefully something is done and worked on. Then the debates can go on.

Look if Pearl Harbor, 9/11 or another past major event had happened, do you honestly believe 2 US senators would say "Fuck that, we have debates."

To me, it's a matter of them being there, saying, "fuck politics, we're going to work together on this and then resume our campaigns." THAT is bringing America together.

One saying, I'll go and work on this and suspend things until it's done...... is a gamble. While noble, it can be looked at as grandstanding.

The other saying, "Well a president has to multi-task and we need this debate." Is just as much a gamble and also can be looked at as grandstanding.

Why couldn't one or both say, "in this time of uncertainty, I ask my colleague to join with me and help work out a plan with Congressional leaders and the President."

THAT would be the true showing of leadership and wanting the best for the country.

Quote:

I agree, it all about what happens behind the scenes. It's all about who can look like they're doing what's right by the country. It's all about who can get the best sound bite. Again, having the two major party candidates in the mix isn't a good idea at all, IMHO.

This we can agree on. It is sad that even a serious problem that will affect us all and can seriously damage our country and we can't even have the 2 major POTUS candidates agree that they need to work together for what is best for ALL not just their chance for getting elected.

Quote:

It's going to matter because the world goes on, life doesn't stop because of a financial crisis. Every four years the US elects a President. When it's a new President, as it will be this year, he inherits whatever problems/benefits the last President leaves.

True, but again, banks failing and the economic future of our country holding on by a thread doesn't happen often.

It's a moot point...... McCain will go down and debate and then go back and continue working on this.

It is sad that even saving our country has become fucking partisan.

I am ashamed to be an American right now. We should all be working together and not separately. "WE can work it out"...... but WE have to work together, we need to STOP, BREATHE and WORK TOGETHER as a country not as 2 separate egotistical self righteous parties 2 that care only about getting themselves elected.

dc_dux · 09-26-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Why couldn't one or both say, "in this time of uncertainty, I ask my colleague to join with me and help work out a plan with Congressional leaders and the President."

THAT would be the true showing of leadership and wanting the best for the country.

IMO, the person who demonstrates greater leadership skills is the one who identifies general guiding principals on an issue, recognizes that there are others with greater expertise and steps back to let those persons work out the details., until such time that their presence is needed.

The more political person is the one who feels the need to insert himself into the discussion at the most basic level in order to present himself as a critical "player" in the game.

Viewers will decide which was which in the theatrical display that we witnessed over the last 24-48 hours.

Glory's Sun · 09-26-2008, 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pan

It's a moot point...... McCain will go down and debate and then go back and continue working on this.

I'm pretty sure that Obama is doing his part as well. He was in the meeting with Bush jr. yesterday. McCain really isn't doing anything. He's not on the committee.. he's just there to say "Let's get something done" and to try and look like the hero in all this. He honestly doesn't have any say so in the matter except to tell his party to get it done.

dc_dux · 09-26-2008, 08:24 AM

Quote:

It's a moot point...... McCain will go down and debate and then go back and continue working on this.

What is McCain going to come back and work on...other than his ego?

The work will go on more productively w/o either candidate sticking their hands into it. The difference is that Obama has laid out his guiding principles on the issue and McCain continues to insist that his presence is needed.

Quote:

I am ashamed to be an American right now. We should all be working together and not separately. "WE can work it out"...... but WE have to work together, we need to STOP, BREATHE and WORK TOGETHER as a country not as 2 separate egotistical self righteous parties 2 that care only about getting themselves elected

Our political process may be frustrating at times...I may have serious issues with our leaders from time to time (like the last eight years) and be ashamed and embarrassed that they may represent the face of America to the world ...

but I have never been ashamed to be an American.

Poppinjay · 09-26-2008, 08:34 AM

Yeah, I don't undertand that either. Equating the failure of the banks with Pearl Harbour is a bit much, too.

Rekna · 09-26-2008, 08:54 AM

Did McCain really suspend his campaign or just duck on on Letterman. His officies were all still open, his people still did phone banking and such, he didn't actually pull adds, and to top it off he already won the debate http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...Friday_WSJ.JPG. If he was truly serious about suspending his campaign and not going to the debates then why did they already buy and release an add saying he won the debate which hasn't even took place yet?

ratbastid · 09-26-2008, 09:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Right now, these 2 men are supposed leaders of their respective parties. This is something that there is no "quick" fix for, but something BOTH men could go into and work so that a deal is made and something is done.

I feel injecting 2 senators that are looked at as leaders of their party should be there, presidential candidates or not.

pan, if you understood how Congress works, you'd never say such an absurd thing.

These two men are NOT the leaders of their parties. They are their parties' Presidential Nominees. They're not on the Banking committee. Neither of them is in the Senate leadership. One of them is going to be the next president, but that doesn't magically give them "fly in and fix things single-handed" authority.

They're not in on Banking committee meetings. They're not participants in that part of the Congressional decision-making.

Plus, all signs indicate that McCain was actually obstructive to the plan that was forwarded yesterday afternoon, while Obama tried to bring the sides together--which is exactly what you yourself claim you'd want him to do. He did that! Precisely what you want! So now please ignore all this and post another screed.

Glory's Sun · 09-26-2008, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

pan, if you understood how Congress works, you'd never say such an absurd thing.

These two men are NOT the leaders of their parties. They are their parties' Presidential Nominees. They're not on the Banking committee. Neither of them is in the Senate leadership. One of them is going to be the next president, but that doesn't magically give them "fly in and fix things single-handed" authority.

They're not in on Banking committee meetings. They're not participants in that part of the Congressional decision-making.

Plus, all signs indicate that McCain was actually obstructive to the plan that was forwarded yesterday afternoon, while Obama tried to bring the sides together--which is exactly what you yourself claim you'd want him to do. He did that! Precisely what you want! So now please ignore all this and post another screed.

quoted for truth and .. because you said it much better than I did

roachboy · 09-26-2008, 09:10 AM

pan--did you not see what happened yesterday? were you not paying attention?
what you think a Great Idea--we have A Meeting of the Whole Team and we all pull together at once, as if the National Will can be sent through all available wires endowing the Leader with SuperHuman Powers and once that happens BAM! into fragments go those pesky problems---that Great Idea, which works out pretty well in superhero comics, is what cowboy george tried yesterday--and it was torpedoed by the far right of the republican party in the house.

what you are watching is faction fighting WITHIN the republican party taking precedence over everything else.
what you are watching is a bit of gamesmanship from the right.
whether you think it'll work, whether you think the far right in the house--the gringrich people---are positioning themselves relative to some conservative base already assuming that mc-cain is cooked, so they're positioning themselves for a subsequent fight or not, the division you're complaining about is coming from your new and improved conservative side of the aisle.

personally, i think the far wing of the republican party just did a job on mc-cain. more damage than a dozen unscripted sarah palin answers to perfectly simple questions.
and i think that is funny.

by the way, central banks had to move to squash a total freeze-up of interbank lending this morning thanks in significant measure to the republicans little stunt:

Quote:

Central banks step in as bail-out fears mount

By Norma Cohen, Economics Correspondent

Published: September 26 2008 08:09 | Last updated: September 26 2008 13:41

The Bank of England moved on Friday to inject longer term cash into money markets as part of a co-ordinated effort with the US Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank and the Swiss National Bank.

The intervention came after White House talks over a $700bn bailout for the US financial system broke up late on Thursday without agreement.

Money market traders said that interbank lending for terms longer than a day had come to a near standstill as counterparties feared that they may be lending to a bank that could suddenly become insolvent.

The Bank of England said it would extend $30bn in cash for a week against eligible collateral, drawing on currency swap lines put in place earlier this month with the Fed.

”These operations are intended to address funding pressures over quarter-end,” the Bank said.

The Bank will also make $10bn available for overnight borrowing. It had previously agreed to provide $40bn daily in overnight money last week, but so far, there has not been demand for the full amount.

Moreover, the Bank said it will inject longer term money into the sterling markets, as banks had been pressing it to do. It said it will extend its long-term repurchase operations against extended collateral, including mortgages. As of September 29, it will offer £40bn for maturity on January 15, taking banks through the year end when cash is generally hoarded by banks.

Bankers welcomed the move. Stuart Gulliver, chief executive of Global Banking and Markets at HSBC, said: ”It’s what the market was looking for. It shows a willingness to listen and will alleviate stresses in the UK bank system right through year-end.”

Money market rates have been distorted as banks parked money overnight, with overnight funds rates far below the Bank of England’s 5.0 per cent rate. However, as of Thursday, money borrowed for three months on an unsecured basis was trading at a crisis high of about 1.5 percentage points above the three-month forward overnight rate, known as SONIA.

The Bank said it would continue to drain reserves from the short term money markets to help keep those rates in line with its Bank Rate.

In addition, it said it and other central banks will continue to work closely and ”are prepared to take further steps as needed to address the ongoing pressures in funding markets.”

Additional reporting by Peter Thal Larsen

FT.com / In depth - Central banks step in as bail-out fears mount

but in your world, pan, the problem is the debates?

i am not familiar with your world.
what color is the sky there?

Rekna · 09-26-2008, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i am not familiar with your world.
what color is the sky there?

It's obviously Red along with everything else.....

dc_dux · 09-26-2008, 09:35 AM

A McCain campaign web ad released this morning declared that "McCain Wins Debate!"

Another ad spotted by our eagle-eyed observer featured a quote from McCain campaign manager Rick Davis declaring: "McCain won the debate-- hands down."

The Fix

this was even before he announced that he would attend the debate!

pan6467 · 09-26-2008, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

These two men are NOT the leaders of their parties. They are their parties' Presidential Nominees. They're not on the Banking committee. Neither of them is in the Senate leadership. One of them is going to be the next president, but that doesn't magically give them "fly in and fix things single-handed" authority.

One, they are leaders by proxy of their respective parties. The fact that they are their party's presidential nominee makes them that, even if just as figureheads.

In 1992, was the battle cry no "It's the economy, stupid"? And yet, now, it's the candidates should not be involved, they need to debate and not be involved.

Yet, if this were reversed and it were Obama saying, "I'm going to Washington and put my campaign on suspension until something is done." While McCain said, "Let's debate.... if I'm needed I can do it over the phone... have to multi-task." I imagine most of you would applaud that and demonize McCain.

That's politics. Sad but true.

Neither of them can go in single handedly and solve it, however, BOTH need to be there because one, WILL have to govern when the "deal" truly begins to affect the country. If I were either of those guys, I would want to be a part of this because it directly will affect my presidency and the future of this country.

But that's just me.

Quote:

They're not in on Banking committee meetings. They're not participants in that part of the Congressional decision-making.

Again, see above..... one of them is the future president.... I want them there because I want them to know what the fuck is going on because it will affect the future and how they govern.

But let's leave this partisan and truly destroy this country, let's not try to work together and make sure that the country's economy is going to survive.

Quote:

Plus, all signs indicate that McCain was actually obstructive to the plan that was forwarded yesterday afternoon, while Obama tried to bring the sides together--which is exactly what you yourself claim you'd want him to do. He did that!

We truly do not know what the Hell is going on. We hear both sides pontificating and blaming the other but we have NO IDEA the reality that is going on. For one to say "it's McCain's fault or Obama's fault" is just spewing partisan bullshit. It's all partisan right now and it's fucking bullshit.

This affects EVERYONE, we need to demand they put partisanship aside and work for what is best for ALL people.

But, both sides are equally trying to blame the other and neither is saying, "Let's just get this done. Let's do what we have to, TOGETHER."

One side says "the insertion of Presidenial politics hurt." One side says "having BOTH men there was extremely helpful". So they can't even agree on that.

THIS IS OUR FUTURE, WE FACE HYPER INFLATION, BANKS CLOSING, OUR WHOLE ECONOMIC FUTURE IN DOUBT AND IT IS BECOMING PARTISAN BULLSHIT FODDER...... WE ARE IN TROUBLE PEOPLE. ONE OF THESE MEN WILL BE RUNNING THE COUNTRY AND IMHO, THAT PERSON BEST BE PREPARED AND BE INVOLVED NOW IN WHAT IS GOING ON.

THIS IS NOT A PARTISAN ISSUE....... THIS IS AN ISSUE THAT WILL AFFECT ALL OF US.

But, according to some on here all of a sudden it's not important.... the debates are.

700 BILLION taxpayer dollars, where they go, how they are used to bail out this economy is far more important.

The fact Ford and GM are saying they may need bail outs is serious.

We are in trouble....... but instead of trying to work TOGETHER let's keep it all partisan.

You say, "Fuck the country, I want my side to win." That's easy... the Dems have the votes... they don't need the GOP votes to pass whatever they want. Just get enough for Bush to sign and you're done.

I say, "Fuck the partisan bullshit, I want my country to come through this and have a plan to be stronger." The only way that becomes possible is if both sides work together. Which if here is any indication of what our politicians, our elected leaders, are acting..... then we are truly doomed because neither side is willing to even listen to the other. And that ain't what's best for America.

Glory's Sun · 09-26-2008, 09:54 AM

You know what the best resolution for the bailout would be? For it not to happen and these smucks who have been living a life of champagne showers find out how hard it can be.

I'm not demonizing McCain with one exception and that is that he is only using this to make it look like he walked in and waved his Magic Maverick Wand and it was solved. Both candidates are fully aware of whats going on. To say they aren't is nothing but pure panic and only adds fuel to the fire.

You call for bi-partisan solutions.. yet it's the Republican party who is not living up to this. The Dems are simply wanting to make sure that people are going to get what they need not what they want..what they want is a blank check..which the Repubs are willing to give them.. which is a huge mistake.

dc_dux · 09-26-2008, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

One, they are leaders by proxy of their respective parties. The fact that they are their party's presidential nominee makes them that, even if just as figureheads.

In 1992, was the battle cry no "It's the economy, stupid"? And yet, now, it's the candidates should not be involved, they need to debate and not be involved.

Yet, if this were reversed and it were Obama saying, "I'm going to Washington and put my campaign on suspension until something is done." While McCain said, "Let's debate.... if I'm needed I can do it over the phone... have to multi-task." I imagine most of you would applaud that and demonize McCain.

pan....comparing a campaign slogan and broad campaign theme with inserting oneself into the minutiae of negotiations for a legislative solution? wtf?

No one has suggested that the "candidates should not be involved" ...simply that their roles should be to articulate their position to the public while consulting with their party representatives who are the negotiators on the issue, not micromanage the process.

IMO.....A good leader should not need to micromanage. He/she should set the parameters (core principles)...step back and delegate to those with expertise...consult with those experts in private during the process of negotiation...and only reinsert him/herself into the process when requested or at the very end in order to seal the deal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I say, "Fuck the partisan bullshit, I want my country to come through this and have a plan to be stronger." The only way that becomes possible is if both sides work together. Which if here is any indication of what our politicians, our elected leaders, are acting..... then we are truly doomed because neither side is willing to even listen to the other. And that ain't what's best for America.

The two parties WERE WORKING TOGETHER since last weekend ...the WH with Senate Dems and Repubs, House Dems and moderate House Repubs....with a minority number of the most conservative House Republicans bitching from outside.....and then MCain inserted himself into the process.

Who politicized it...if not McCain?

I've never been impressed with the tactic of wrapping the flag around oneself as a reasoned approached to problem solving....but McCain believes it will work and evidently, you bought into it.

Tully Mars · 09-26-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dc_dux

A McCain campaign web ad released this morning declared that "McCain Wins Debate!"

Another ad spotted by our eagle-eyed observer featured a quote from McCain campaign manager Rick Davis declaring: "McCain won the debate-- hands down."

The Fix

this was even before he announced that he would attend the debate!

I can't get your link to work.

But I smell...

dc_dux · 09-26-2008, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I can't get your link to work.

McCain Wins Debate - The Fix

I dont doubt that Obama has similar ads ready to go (if he doesnt, he should)...but Obama was not the one who made a public pronouncement of suspending his campaign and putting “country above politics.”

pan6467 · 09-26-2008, 10:30 AM

It's not a matter of micromanaging, it's a matter of being there and knowing what is being done.

I'm sorry, if I'm getting ready to run a company and it is having a serious problem, I want to be there so that when I take over, I know first hand what the Hell is happening. If I have a certain amount of stockholders backing me and I can sway their votes or get them to work out what is best for the company and not just them.... then I would want to be there.... Afterward, I can go out and tell people what was done to help the company. That is far better leadership than me saying what I would do after a deal that I don't know what the deal is. I may have good ideas, I may have people telling me.... but I don't have first hand knowledge so I, as the prospective leader can't really talk about it except in hypotheticals and second hand knowledge.

I want a president with first hand knowledge and was there working on it. I want them to do their job and I want them to take a stand and show leadership.... not pontificate and bullshit on what they may do after the fact.

09-25-2008, 06:21 PM	#83 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Less oversight? Now we know who's buttering his bread. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-25-2008, 06:34 PM	#84 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	well, the media fog machine, which i've been watching a bit on tv this evening, seems to want us to see the house reactionaries as leading this because they're thinking primarily about "rebuilding the party"--they do not think mc-cain is trustworthy, not one of them---they owe nothing to bush and do not know paulson--bush is now worse than a lame duck. from what the talking heads are saying, during the meeting, mc-cain sat there and the house rightwing republicans did the talking. i think this was co-ordinated, but it's a little hard to say to what end exactly. i don't see mc-cain able to do much "leading" in this context, but who knows where the theater stops and starts in this? while all this was going on, the feds seized washington mutual outright. and as an aside, take a look at this unrelated article, which is beyond startling, and which surfaced this afternoon as well, while the shit was hitting the fan in washington: Israel asked US for green light to bomb nuclear sites in Iran \| World news \| guardian.co.uk lots of fog. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-25-2008, 09:17 PM	#87 (permalink)
Makedde Tilted Location: Australia	Obama says that a Presidental hopeful should be able to concentrate on more than one thing at the same time. I believe him to be correct about this. The debate should go ahead, there is no good reason why it shouldn't. Unless of course, McCain only wants to postpone this debate so he can brush up on his debating skills... __________________ Sun flames and moons glow, timeless the tides will flow, what will I face, what will be mine, fortune and fate the other side...

09-25-2008, 10:13 PM	#89 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Crisis Politics in action folks. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

09-25-2008, 10:55 PM	#90 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	If this were a "normal" crisis I would agree that a president should multi-task. But this is a HUGE fucking crisis that the outcome can negatively affect our nation for YEARS. These men are paid to be on the Senate floor for these problems and should do the job they have NOW.... not be concerned about their own personal ambitions and seeking other jobs. They have plenty of time for debates later, this crisis demands our governments full attention NOW..... not later. This is what we pay these people for, to do a job, not to pontificate and go elsewhere and ignore what they are originally elected to do. These men could sit down together, put politics and partisanship aside and show true love of country by working on a plan TOGETHER as the leaders we expect them to be. FUCK POLITICS, FUCK THE ELECTION...... DO WHAT IS RIGHT FOR ONCE AND WORK TO BETTER THE COUNTRY NOT DIVIDE IT FURTHER. Let them get together with Bush and the Congressional leaders, work a deal and come out with a plan that neither party, nor candidate takes credit for but both sides agree that the plan is the best they could come up with for the WHOLE country, not just their side. But that won't happen. The powers that be behind the scenes won't allow it. BTW..... what will the election matter if our economy and this crisis blows sky high before Nov. 4th? Why not demand our politicians work together and do what is right for the country? Sorry, but I can't fathom ANYONE, stating they have the country's best interests at heart, yet, claiming that a being at a debate is more important right now. Nor can I fathom, ANYONE, saying that, "the college spent a million, they need to have the debate or that money was wasted." WTF??????? That million is chump change compared to the 700 BILLION, maybe a TRILLION when all is said and done that taxpayers will have to pay out. Sorry, saving our economy and doing their jobs is the most important task they have right now. THESE MEN WANT TO BE OUR LEADER..... THEN THEY NEED TO SHOW FUCKING LEADERSHIP. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

09-25-2008, 06:56 PM	#85 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	The Page - by Mark Halperin - TIME Very interesting...

09-25-2008, 09:08 PM	#86 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	CNN reports that McCain was silent for the first 40+ minutes of the meeting and hardly said a thing at all. They are also saying that Obama did the opposite and was involved in the discussions and tried to bring both sides together. So tell me who is Presidential out of these two and who is not?

09-26-2008, 02:03 AM	#91 (permalink)
flstf Easy Rider Location: Moscow on the Ohio	I don't know pan, it would probably take Obama more than a week and McCain more than a month to begin to understand what the problem is much less what to do about it. I believe one or both of them may have some economic advisors on their staff who worked for some of the companies generating toxic paper and they may have some insight.

09-26-2008, 03:12 AM	#93 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	or it could well be that the far right in the house is willing to play chicken with the administration, with the rest of congress, with the economic situation and so forth in order to (a) bring mc-cain to heel and (b) use the crisis inside the crisis to introduce their whacked-out "cut capital gains taxes and reduce regulation" line as if it were a real plan. and this may be happening because the mc-cain campaign decided to engage in the theater of "suspending" the campaign (by moving it to congress)---so maybe this is the price being exacted for mc-cain's little coup de thêatre. and this is the point where the neo-liberal counter-crisis begins. confronting an ideological waterloo, the gringrich-inspired wing of the right sends in the True Believers. their only tactical advantages are surprise and the fact that they have their positions written down. tv works to their advantage because it can give them the illusion of sang-froid. the weakness of the banking committee/negociation process is, seemingly, that the agreements which were reached were in principle and that the language of the actual bill isn't down yet. so what set this up, intentionally or not (hard to say) is the 2.5 page, clearly unacceptable proposal from the administration. mc-cain now finds himself in a terribly awkward situation--to move in the palin direction would require that he embrace the far right's move. to act "presidential" he cannot embrace their move. what i suspect the idea is that mc-cain will not "act presidential" but rather that he will carry shit for the far right---you want to be a leader, john? this is what you are doing to do, these are the positions you are going to advocate for, this is how you are going to do it, now go "lead" like a good boy. what seems clear is that the only weapon these clowns have is going all bartelby in the middle of this accelerating situation of accelerating acceleration (everyone says so, one way or another---and that seems what all this is at bottom)....which means that they must see the writing on the wall and have decided that they've nothing to loose. so the crisis of neoliberalism is now at a new level of explicitness. and it is obvious that in this crisis, ideology trumps everything else. conservatives have little room to manoever, no flexibility---this is the downside of collapsing economic ideology into identity. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-26-2008, 04:35 AM	#97 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	I do find it odd that the parties were close to a consensus until McCain got there, and then all of a sudden couldn't get an agreement. It also says something that while Obama brought a Senate staffer, McCain brought a political staffer. My guess is that McCain wants to delay the debate until next week so that they'll have to cancel the V-P debate. There's no reason for Obama or McCain to be in DC 24 hrs a day. Neither one is on a relevant committee, and neither one has the necessary expertise. By all means they should brush up on it enough to cast an informed vote, but I don't see any reason why they have to be part of the negotiations. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

09-26-2008, 07:47 AM	#101 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	America: John, stop acting like a child and debate Barack. McCain: McCain will go to debate - Politico Staff - Politico.com

09-26-2008, 07:48 AM	#102 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	It seems to me that McCain would rather "Win an election than save the economy". How unpatriotic of him. For those of you who think McCain is right what do you think of his plan that decreases regulation and removes capital gains taxes?

09-26-2008, 07:51 AM	#103 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	The Debate is going to be held as scheduled. The only reason McCain didn't want to debate was so he could look like a hero in the bailout deal. Too bad the timing didn't work out for him.

09-26-2008, 08:34 AM	#108 (permalink)
Poppinjay You had me at hello Location: DC/Coastal VA	Yeah, I don't undertand that either. Equating the failure of the banks with Pearl Harbour is a bit much, too. __________________ I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

09-26-2008, 08:54 AM	#109 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	Did McCain really suspend his campaign or just duck on on Letterman. His officies were all still open, his people still did phone banking and such, he didn't actually pull adds, and to top it off he already won the debate http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv...Friday_WSJ.JPG. If he was truly serious about suspending his campaign and not going to the debates then why did they already buy and release an add saying he won the debate which hasn't even took place yet?

09-26-2008, 09:35 AM	#114 (permalink)
dc_dux Location: Washington DC	A McCain campaign web ad released this morning declared that "McCain Wins Debate!" Another ad spotted by our eagle-eyed observer featured a quote from McCain campaign manager Rick Davis declaring: "McCain won the debate-- hands down." The Fix this was even before he announced that he would attend the debate! __________________ "The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-26-2008 at 10:14 AM..

09-26-2008, 09:54 AM	#116 (permalink)
Glory's Sun Registered User	You know what the best resolution for the bailout would be? For it not to happen and these smucks who have been living a life of champagne showers find out how hard it can be. I'm not demonizing McCain with one exception and that is that he is only using this to make it look like he walked in and waved his Magic Maverick Wand and it was solved. Both candidates are fully aware of whats going on. To say they aren't is nothing but pure panic and only adds fuel to the fire. You call for bi-partisan solutions.. yet it's the Republican party who is not living up to this. The Dems are simply wanting to make sure that people are going to get what they need not what they want..what they want is a blank check..which the Repubs are willing to give them.. which is a huge mistake.

09-26-2008, 10:30 AM	#120 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	It's not a matter of micromanaging, it's a matter of being there and knowing what is being done. I'm sorry, if I'm getting ready to run a company and it is having a serious problem, I want to be there so that when I take over, I know first hand what the Hell is happening. If I have a certain amount of stockholders backing me and I can sway their votes or get them to work out what is best for the company and not just them.... then I would want to be there.... Afterward, I can go out and tell people what was done to help the company. That is far better leadership than me saying what I would do after a deal that I don't know what the deal is. I may have good ideas, I may have people telling me.... but I don't have first hand knowledge so I, as the prospective leader can't really talk about it except in hypotheticals and second hand knowledge. I want a president with first hand knowledge and was there working on it. I want them to do their job and I want them to take a stand and show leadership.... not pontificate and bullshit on what they may do after the fact. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"