pan6467

Yes, the debate should be postponed. These men are senators, THAT is their job right now, not running for president. We, the taxpayers, pay their salaries to be present and work our nation through problems such as these.

We need our government to start doing their fucking jobs and stop politicking. They need to be there as leaders of their respective parties to show support and figure out how to get through this with as little damage as possible.

So, yes, they have plenty of time for debates, they have very little time to work through this crisis. It is their job to do so, it is what we PAY them to do. If they cannot be there because they would rather stand on a stage and pontificate about bullshit that can wait a few days to be heard, they do not deserve to be president because they are not doing their job nor do they have the best interest of the country they want to lead at heart.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Poppinjay

Okay Pan, are YOU going to re-pay the University of Mississippi the million or so they would be out?

There isn't a lot of time. The registration deadline is nigh, and we need to hear some answers from these two guys. We'll be paying one of them to be president pretty soon.

At any rate, it's just a gimmick by McCain to goose his numbers. Just like choosing Palin.

Next he'll wrestle a bear or bite the head off a bat.

__________________
I think the Apocalypse is happening all around us. We go on eating desserts and watching TV. I know I do. I wish we were more capable of sustained passion and sustained resistance. We should be screaming and what we do is gossip. -Lydia Millet

dc_dux

McCain's stunt of inserting himself in the process of negotiating a compromise bill is pure politics ...and one too many cooks in the kitchen (particularly one who doesnt know how to cook)

McCain and Obama can meet with Bush this afternoon, discuss the general framework for an acceptable legisaltive solution, have their photo op w/Bush ...then go back and brief their respective caucuses this evening.

AT WHICH POINT.. McCain, Obama (and Bush) should back off and leave it to the principle negotiators (House/Senate Banking chairs/ranking member, Sec of Treasure/Fed Chair) to work out the details....

..which most likely means a bill wont reach fhe floor of the House and/or Senate before Saturday.

NO reaons why they cant be in Miss to debate tomorrow night.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ratbastid

It's most certainly NOT the job of two Senators who aren't on any of the right committees to do ANYTHING about this. A deal will get worked out in the Senate and House Banking Committees, which is where this work belongs. Neither McCain nor Obama are on those committees.

To have McCain winging heroically back to Washington to look like he's doing something is the crassest possible politicizing of the crisis, and I'm frankly shocked that those on this board who have bought it have bought it. McCain and Obama standing around "helping" won't help anything.

jewels

The future of this country will lay in the hands of he who pontificates best. Where's your man been for the past six months of voting? That reeks of hypocrisy.

I can't believe you have the cojones to call that bullshit.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

roachboy

cheap grandstanding is not what bothers me.

the way it looks from the outside, the mc-cain base has now been told that the media lies, information is not to be trusted, that there's some Elite out to get them, that competence and education are problems, that something Very Bad is happening to the economy but it's not SO bad that any rethinking of anything is required, that there is no point in debate across party lines but of course the partisanship is a problem, just as there's something Very Bad happening with petroleum the "explanation" for which lay with those pointy-headed environmentalists who prefer protecting tundra and stupid birds to allowing Us to drive our vast metallic transportation environments in exactly the way we always have, and so the solution for which lay in penetrating the ground early and often with as many Manly drills as possible. and we always say those drills are bigger than they are.

strangely, this does add up----to a total rejection of democratic process---of which, like it or not, used to it or not, informed debate is central.

instead, there is a preference for manly men engaging in the manly theater of Being Decisive in a Manly kinda way, of Making Decisions that are symmetrical with the perpetual State of Emergency that makes us all feel so very alive.

and since any trace of hope that mc-cain has of not paying a very considerable price for being the republican who follows george w bush's Decider Act rests on his continuous regeneration of some sense of contact with the base, this cheap theater seems to be about a Pantomime Leadership Style. and since the previous administration didn't do so well with implementation of anything, but managed to hold at least a minimal degree of adherence by appearing to be Manly and Decisive, so it follows that what this theater is about is the Appearance of Decisiveness, of Boldness--and only secondarily is it about anything that might actually happen.

and besides, finding out what actually happened is information and information is bad. the evil press gets in the way. look at what they did to the nice mc-cain campaign's attempts to properly frame palins field trip to the un. she got to sit near kissinger. she learned more by osmosis than most pointy-heads will learn in a lifetime of reading books....

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

flstf

If a candidate feels that they are not capable of multitasking then they should not try to do more than one thing at a time. It is wise to know your limitations.

I also don't think it will do much good to inject the economic genius of these two into this mess except for photo ops and political pandering. Neither one probably has a clue how to price the toxic paper we will be buying. Instead change the debate to economics and let them tell us why they are for more or less government oversight so we know which one is more likely to enable messes like this in the future.

aceventura3

I generally agree with your statement here, however I do think it is the job of true leaders to take a stand , be involved, and act in a proactive manner. If we are in a "melt down" (which I think is more psychological than anything else), I want to know who is going to show leadership, I want to know who is willing to take an unpopular stand doing what needs to be done regardless of political consequences. Real or not McCain simply out maneuvered Obama on this issue up to this point - assuming legislation is passed or agreed upon prior to Friday evening.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ratbastid

I don't believe this is an outmaneuver. I believe this is a way to dodge poor debate timing.

The first debate is supposed to be on national security and foreign affairs, which is an alleged McCain strong point. He doesn't want his "strong" debate lost in a week where he's down in the polls and buried by the economy issue, which is a massive loser for him. So part of what he's doing here is rejiggering the long-agreed-upon debate schedule to something more favorable. As a side-effect, he hopes to postpone the VP debate as well.

The GOP voting tactic is, limit the number of people who can vote. The higher the turnout (ie. the bigger the sample of America the popular vote is), the worse the GOP does. So they're all about knocking out potential voters.

This is a similar tactic, but it's less discourse instead of less voting. The more face-to-face talking the candidates do, the worse off McCain is going to be. So this is all about limiting and diminishing that.

How to "take a stand" and "be a leader" is to speak publicly. Standing around outside the office where the decisions are being made, not being allowed in because you're not a member on that committee? Not presidential.

By the way, the other big story that's NOT hitting the MSM these days, completely overshadowed by the "suspending the campaign" thing is the issue of McCain's campaign manager, lobbyist Rick Davis, getting paid $15k a month by Freddie Mac until last month. So I suspect that this is also a "don't notice the massive sale of the Presidency" move.

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5...vCcK8__sIXm_4g

dc_dux

McCain's leadership and taking a stand?

to say the economy was sound...then no it wasnt...but the workers are the best in the wordl

to say he was against regulation..then for regulation...then against regulation..then for regulation

to say, as president, he would fire the SEC chair....when the president has no authority to do so

to admit that as of yesterday, he hadnt even read the Paulson proposal.

His polling numbers have been dropping by the day with each passing statement like those above...

and hist latest stunt wont help with anyone but the most conservative base.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Willravel

Why would we need to postpone anything if the fundamentals of our economy are strong?

roachboy

what are "the fundamentals of the economy" anyway?
they keep moving around...

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

I use a number of measures, one is based on my personal observation - I call it the Eating Out Indicator.

One, what is the average wait time for getting seated at a restaurant for dinner? When the wait times trend up, the economy is growing. When the numbers trend down economic growth is going to slow. Lately the wait times have shown no change in the last 6 months, and were trending up a year ago.

Two, how often do I see help wanted signs at fast food restaurants, like McDonald's and what is the age range of the employees. I see help wanted signs every time I go out to eat lunch. The average age appears to be people in their late teens or early twenties with a few older people here and there. In California, while I lived there I saw an interesting trend - starting wages above minimum wage and more and more older people (usually immigrants not proficient in the english language) working in fast food. This was telling me that there was a trend away from middle class teens needing jobs - times were good/booming during most of the time I was there.

Please understand I am weird, I pay attention to these things and I have been doing it for decades. My indicators are just as good as the people featured on CNBC or in financial magazines. I remember reading a book written by a guy featured all over the place were he said the DOW would hit 40,000 by 2016, seems a bit far fetched today.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ratbastid

aceventura3

Like it or not McCain has a track record of taking unpopular stands and doing things that did not appear on the surface to be in his benefit, Obama does not. Obama ads reference McCain being instep with Bush 90%, I wonder what percent of time Obama been in step with Pelosi and Reid? Or even what percent of time Obama has been in step with Bush? Certainly Obama did not do anything out of step with party machine politics in Chicago.
-----Added 25/9/2008 at 03 : 03 : 37-----
Then there is the Costco gas line indicator. When people go out of their way to get gas at Costco, people are taking the first steps toward taking more dramatic actions on energy conservation. It is a leading indicator. Pull right up no problems, wait for one or two cars people are getting concerned, wait more than that people are going to start selling SUV's.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ratbastid

The official answer is: American Workers. Several million individual little hard-working fundamentals. Going off to work with their tin lunchboxes, riveting all day high above the city, then coming home to a house that whups got foreclosed out from under them.

Yes sir, if you don't believe our economy is strong, you must not believe in the American worker.

That was the message last week anyway. This week is, the economy is in such a crisis we have to drop everything and gallop off to Washington to stand around wringing our hands while others fix it. Darn workers. Screw everything up.
-----Added 25/9/2008 at 03 : 11 : 17-----
I'm glad to hear that as goes Ventura County's Costco gas line, so goes the nation.

Guess what? Here in my home town, gas prices have been going down, and it's less and less an issue, since the troubles a week or so ago. An hour and a half south of me, in Charlotte, half the stations are without gas and lines are going around the block.

Please go look up the word "anecdotal".

aceventura3

I suggest Peter Lynch's Beating The Street for you. Looking at macro and "anecdotal" data can give a person a slight edge. I have no problem with people mocking small jewels of information, doesn't affect me one way or the other.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

ace..the problem with your assertion is......which McCain?

I agree with you, at least to some extent, on the old "maverick" McCain.

But the new "candidate" McCain is:

now for the Bush tax cuts that the "maverick" called irresponsible

now against the "maverick's" comprehensive immigration reform and now for border security first

now using the loopholes the "maverick" created in McCain/Feingold campaign finance reform

not sure at all where he is on regulation..he flips flops from day to day

now silent on a constitutional amendment to ban abortions or ban gay marriage in the Republican platform that the "maverick" opposed

the list goes on and on....

Its no wonder he doesnt want to debate...he doesnt know which personna to bring to the debate - the old maverick or the new campaigner.

Seriously, he has boxed himself in and now has to decide whether he is the "candidate" who will pander to the conservative base or the "maverick" who will move to the center to appeal to the swing voters...he cant do both.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

aside: ace--so you're in kali and you don't frequent in-and-out burgers, but instead do macdo?

i don't get it.
in-and-out burger is one of the few things i miss about kali.


occupied with stuff, so more later...

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

aceventura3

I don't underestimate McCain. I think McCain can address his "changes" and I think he can do it in a manner that will make him look thoughtful and responsive to new and changing information. His announcement was intended to get Obama off of his game plan, rattle his cage a bit. If nothing else McCain is showing how he would lead, and from a foreign affairs point of view "gamesmanship" is a big part of getting what you want. Again, I am not saying it is wrong or right, etc., it is what it is.
-----Added 25/9/2008 at 03 : 43 : 19-----
Raise on White Castle burgers in Illinois. McDonald's best fries in the world. Jonny Rocket's best fast food burger. In-and out was o.k.. Now I live in NC. and hate pulled pork.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

His announcement was a huge gamble..and he is a gambler. To suggest putting "country above campaign" and that he cant walk and chew gum (do both at the same time) flies in the face of history and leadership....look at campaigns during the Civil War, the Great Depression, WW II.

It is too soon to conclude that it has paid off. The daily polls would suggest otherwise...but we'll know more tomorrow night.

What he definetly is NOT is a Reagan type candidate who made the campaign about his ideology. McCain's campaign is ideologically dynamic and focused soley on crafting images - of himself and Obama.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ratbastid

Oh, man, you thought you and I had differences before?

aceventura3

When Muhammad Ali beat Sonny Liston, Ali certainly was fighter who could walk and chew gum, but he still got into Liston's head. I think many believe Liston underestimated Ali, Liston thought Ali was all talk and was a nut. I listen to Obama joke about McCain, he often says things like "he has to be kidding...", "does he really expect us to believe...", you know what he says - I wonder if Obama and his supporters are getting a bit over confident, perhaps a bit too smug? Bush hired Rove and selected Chaney, McCain doesn't need a Rove or a Chaney because he is a combination of the two. I still don't like him but he is fun to watch.
-----Added 25/9/2008 at 04 : 08 : 18-----
Eastern or Western style? I don't like either, give me a good burger any day.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

LOL....McCain is surrounded by Roves and Cheneys....or veterans (clones) from the Bush campaign and/or White House "image" machine.

Seems Like Old Times

I'm still trying to understand the latest "gamesmenship" you suggest he displayed.

I see it as totally out of touch....

the economy is strong- no, I meant the American worker are the best - no, we are in a crisis, so I cant campaign

regulation...I dont know..I was against them before I was for them and now I might be against them again.

oh...and I havent read Poulson's plan as of yesterday when I declared a crisis

Particularly after Obama clearly laid out some general principles that should be part of any bailout legislation....and which apparently are included in the compromise being finalized...none of which were in the Bush/Poulson proposal:

"I will support the bailout if it ensures independent bipartisan oversight, reimburses taxpayers, caps executive compensation and helps homeowners avoid foreclosure.....the measures are safeguards that "any package needs to include for me to support it."

If McCain shows up tomorrow night and the question is asked, I'll be waiting to here how his "leadership" (stunt) helped contribute to a bi-partisan solution.

But yes..he is fun to watch...if you like train wrecks.....but I wont get too cocky or confident...I know better.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

loquitur

It's silly grandstanding. McCain wants to look serious, as if he is critical to the solution - when in reality he is one of 100 senators, and I don't think he even is on the relevant committees (I might be wrong about this; if I am, someone please let me know). He also might just be using it to tweak Obama. But substantively it's pure bullshit, left out in the field to attract flies and decompose.

What I think is really going on is that he wants to move all the debates down a few days and this is his tool to do it. Why does he want to move all the debates down? Simple - Sarah Palin needs more time to come up to speed and practice for her debate. Or is this too cynical?

ratbastid

Nope, he's not.

Nope. That's what's happening. Also see my note above about the topic of the first debate and the timing of what's going on in the world right now. He wants to have his "strong" debate--the one on foreign policy and security--when it's not going to get overshadowed by him being behind in the polls and facing this economy mess. He's hoping that later will be better for him than now. Total desperation play, but there it is.

Willravel

It's way too cynical. Governor Palin can see the debates from her house. She has all the experience debating one might ever need. As for McCain, so what that he's not voted in the Senate since April? So what that he's been for deregulation for nearly 30 years, suddenly changing his mind in the last week? He has an important role, somehow! He has to do... something...! And that something just happens to fall on the same day as a debate with one of the most talented orators to run for president in the past 40 years.

aceventura3

McCain loses the point if it is defined as you describe.

He win if it is - My opponent was locked up in Florida sitting poolside studying foreign policy in preparation for a debate while I went to Washington to help avert the "melt down" of our economy. My friends I don't need to take several days to prepare for a foreign policy debate because I lived it as a POW...I am going to fight for you the way I fought for my country during a time of war...I am willing to lead on the most important issues of the day, take stands against my own party, like remember when I supported the Surge...My oppnent won't even say our brave men and woman in uniform are winning the surge...which I supported before anyone else...

I may not have the exact order, but I would be willing to bet he hits all of those points when he announces the debate is still on.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ottopilot

This in today...

ABC News - September 25, 2008 8:26 AM (link contains video)

Bill Clinton: "Don't 'Overly Parse' McCain Request to Delay Debate"
As I asked in another thread... Why would Bill go to this trouble to make such statements? Is he working against the "multi-tasking" line of the Obama camp? Is this campaigning for 2012?

Curious.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

I bet he wears a bigger flag pin too!

At least until the follow up question....And how exactly did your going to Washington help avert the meltdown of our economy?

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

jewels

I saw him say that this morning.

Remember, Bill's the coverboy for diplomacy.

I think it's his way of a gentle reprieve of jumping on the bashing bandwagon. They didn't call him Slick Willy for nuttin'.

Then again, you can be sure the Missus will be back later.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

dc_dux

ace....Here's another question that might come up.

How are we winning the surge when Bush clearly enunciated 11 benchmarks of success...and Iraq has only met 4 of those benchmarks?
-----Added 25/9/2008 at 05 : 21 : 39-----
Or a another follow-up:

Sen McCain...From numerous reports, PM Malaki and the Iraqi parliament support the basic concept of Sen Obama's withdrawal proposal, with a marginally longer timetable. Do you agree with Malaki or are you still insisting on no timetable even if the Iraqis demand one?

Wasnt Sen Obama correct when he said we are focusing on the wrong enemy....while Iraq is no closer to political reconciliation and we are still spending $billions/month...Afghanistan is spiraling out of control, the Taliban and al Queda (those who attacked us) are regaining strength by the day.

ace...shame we cant be the moderators

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

well now here's an interesting development. mc-cain arrives, the deal collapses. suddenly, conservative republicans in the house want the same thing mc-cain supports, but before they were ok with the deal and now, suddenly, they aren't.

White House Meeting Fails to Yield Bailout Deal - washingtonpost.com

so let's assume for a moment that dodd's statement on the first page of that article (above) is accurate, and that the republican action "looks more like a rescue plan for jon mc-cain" than one aimed at however you understand the derivatives market implosion to be.

now we know that the republican study committee and that old harridan gingrich have come out in opposition to this deal on neoliberal grounds--they can't say the word neoliberal, but they blab alot about "free market principles" as if these were separate from an ideology. whatever. cowboy george goes on television last night to interrupt the continuum of entertainment and announce that everything is about to tank so hurry hurry hurry. word is from the house banking committee last night that an agreement was close, and then again this afternoon--and agreement was close, all that remained was...

john mc-cain to show up.

now friday is typically bad news day. since the reagan period, if something really shitty is happening and it involves the continuous information management system in the white house, that shitty news does come out, but on friday. preferably in the afternoon. so it looks like that's being set up, but a little early.

do you think that mc-cain is THAT afraid of a debate tomorrow? or is it that his campaign is afraid of the appearance of total irrelevance following on the decision to go act Leadership=full... or maybe there never was an agreement and an already discredited administration decided to buy itself one more day than it thought it had by releasing a fake story. now that doesn't seem right.

what we do know: mc-cain shows up, the republicans in the house decide that NOW is the time to reverse course and say no deal. so maybe now mc-cain can appear to broker a deal and appear bi-partisan in the process, resolving an entirely fake crisis. so that's mean that the house republicans are playing chicken with a pretty serious financial situation, which has now become a "Crisis" because cowboy george interrupted the flow of entertainment, in order to give the mc-cain campaign the possibility of a theatrical Moment and also, in the process, avoid a debate.

would the republicans do that? would the party of karl rove stoop to this?

it's just a coincidence.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

filtherton

I'm curious as to how McCain still has foreign policy cred. Was he hoping Lieberman would be able to whisper in his ear during the debate?

ASU2003

Isn't the debate at night? They have been saying the same thing for the past 18 months, I would think they would be able to work in DC in the morning and afternoon on Friday, get on a plane (they could share to save money), discuss topics/strategy on the plane, and get to Mississippi in time to look good to talk for a few hours.

hunnychile

He's starting to run "scared", huh?

Not surprised. And if they send in Palin for one of these, they really will be toast, dude!

__________________
"I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

Rekna

McCain has now injected politics into the whole bailout plan and it is going to go nowhere. His decision was stupid and now our financial institutions are at even greater risk.

Here is how it went down:

1) Republicans and Democrats come out and say they have reached a deal
2) McCain shows up
3) Republicans reverse coarse and say no deal

McCain is trying to make this a political issue instead of a bipartisan issue and I hope he pays for it dearly.

ottopilot

You've got 2 and 3 in the wrong order. Republicans came out the day before McCain's announcement indicating they were likely not to support the deal.

Republican anger at ‘financial socialism’ Financial Times Sept. 23 2008

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Tully Mars

Yeah I thought McCain went down there to get the GOP to reverse course again and support the proposal.

__________________
I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo

Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

jorgelito

Yep, I agree. You can't count out McCain yet. The Democrats would be wise to realize this and act accordingly.



I live in Cali; In N Out is waaaaaaaayyyyyyy overrated. I do like the Christian theme however. But I prefer McDonalds.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

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