How many positions can one candidate have? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Tully Mars · 09-18-2008, 02:25 PM

I read this today on Newsweek-

Quote:

Speaking to a reporter from the Spanish newspaper El Pais back in early April, McCain said, "this is the moment to leave behind discrepancies with Spain." (President Bush has yet to hold a formal bilateral meeting with the center-left Zapatero, who withdrew troops from Iraq shortly after taking office in 2004.) "I would like for [President Zapatero] to visit the United States," McCain added. "I am very interested not only in normalizing relations with Spain but in obtaining good and productive relations with the goal of addressing many issues and challenges that we have to confront together." Sounds sensible enough, right?

Except it's not what McCain said Monday. Instead, the Arizona senator responded to Radio Caracol's question with some boilerplate about being "willing to meet with those leaders who are friends and want to work with us in a cooperative fashion." Pressed to be more specific, McCain simply repeated his talking point: "I can assure you I will establish closer relations with our friends and I will stand up to those who want to do harm to the United States of America." Needless to say, that's an unusual way to refer to a European democracy and fellow member of NATO--as confused Spanish commenters have pointed out in the days since McCain's remarks broke overseas. Especially if you've already said that you "would like" its leader "to visit" the U.S.

Stumper : Spain: Did McCain Know What He Was Talking About?

I'm left wondering how many position can this guy have regarding any one issue. Everything from the religous right to toture to regulations to, to, to??? Where does it end.

Rekna · 09-18-2008, 03:16 PM

McCain messed up. It sounds like he didn't know that Zapatero was the president of Spain, then after the reported informed him of that it sounded like he thought Spain was part of Latin America and lumped Zapatero with Chavez.

McCain is already hurting with Latin Americans and this most definitely wont help.

Willravel · 09-18-2008, 03:21 PM

This is the kind of thing that supports the idea that he may be becoming incontinent due to age. Many, many times he has made incredibly odd slips that go beyond the explanation of normal confusion. I originally attributed it to a combination of having to change all of his positions to win and stress, but I'm not so sure.

ratbastid · 09-18-2008, 06:17 PM

Grandpa forgot where Spain is.

It's been a bad week for Grandpa. Wonder what will happen to him tomorrow?

Willravel · 09-18-2008, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

It's been a bad week for Grandpa. Wonder what will happen to him tomorrow?

Tully Mars · 09-18-2008, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Grandpa forgot where Spain is.

It's been a bad week for Grandpa. Wonder what will happen to him tomorrow?

According to his camp he knew exactly what was being discussed- just wasn't willing to commit to meeting with Spain. Something he already agreed to do.

I watched Countdown tonight and Kieth went down a list of things where they have made serious gaffs like this and then their excuse sounds worse then the gaff.

It has reached comical stage, IMHO. Sadly much of the US voters will ignore this, never hear it or believe the GOP spin. Which, IMO, means McCain's camp. may never reach terminal stage. But I'm holding out hope.

ottopilot · 09-18-2008, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Grandpa forgot where Spain is.

It's due east of the 57th state.

ratbastid · 09-19-2008, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

According to his camp he knew exactly what was being discussed- just wasn't willing to commit to meeting with Spain. Something he already agreed to do.

...

Sadly much of the US voters will ignore this, never hear it or believe the GOP spin.

Terrifying. So Spain is the next France?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Willravel

You know, in my first version of that post, I actually did refer to him as Grandpa Simpson... Then I thought I'd be a bit more oblique. Glad I left that one on the table for ya, Will!

Tully Mars · 09-19-2008, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Terrifying. So Spain is the next France?

Well to be honest my only source on that is Kieth. Sometimes I find him drifting into Fox type behavior. His is merely directed in a different direction. I like him, I really do. But I've found myself watching him and thinking "What? that's completely out of context" or lately "those numbers don't even add up, it's simply math dude... it's on the screen next to your head. And yet you're claiming it's more in Obama's favor."

But on the topic at hand- I do find it terrifying. This morning I was reading comments on sites like Washington Post and Newsweek. The rights getting more and more crazy (can't even believe that's possible.) You have people claiming "Of course he was talking about people when he said the fundamentals of our economy is strong, the media just hates him and they'll print anything and any lie to make him look bad." And "he never said he was against regulation in regards to the markets, the media's out to get him that should be obvious to anyone by now"

Sorry I don't believe he was talking about people when he stated "the fundamentals of our economy is strong." I think he meant exactly what he said. And he was literally against regulation of the markets one morning and in favor of it the next morning.

The one overall theme the McCain people have been selling best is "the media is not to be believed, they're out to get... pay no attention to what they say." It's working and I find it very scary.

guyy · 09-19-2008, 10:49 AM

It sounds to me like he doesn't know where Spain is. The interviewer tells him she is shifting the topic to Spain, reminds him again that they are discussing Spain, then tells him Spain is in Europe, but he still doesn't get it.

He doesn't sound right in the interview. Aside from the confusion, he sounds a little down and distracted.

Tully Mars · 09-19-2008, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guyy

It sounds to me like he doesn't know where Spain is. The interviewer tells him she is shifting the topic to Spain, reminds him again that they are discussing Spain, then tells him Spain is in Europe, but he still doesn't get it.

He doesn't sound right in the interview. Aside from the confusion, he sounds a little down and distracted.

I've been pretty anti-ageism in regards to the McCain situation but he seems to be getting farther and farther "out there." I'm sure running for President is no picnic. It has to be a straining stressful ordeal. I think he's showing signs of that stress. Some of his answers are simply whacked out. If he can't handle the job of running for President without starting to loose it, how the hell is he going to be able to run the Oval Office? Surely being President has to be more challenging then running for President.

flstf · 09-19-2008, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Sorry I don't believe he was talking about people when he stated "the fundamentals of our economy is strong." I think he meant exactly what he said. And he was literally against regulation of the markets one morning and in favor of it the next morning.

I think he is just like me (and probably many others) who don't really understand how the economy got so messed up. Now he is just trying to position himself politically where he thinks most voters will react favorably without distancing himself too far from the base.

ratbastid · 09-19-2008, 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

I think he is just like me (and probably many others) who don't really understand how the economy got so messed up. Now he is just trying to position himself politically where he thinks most voters will react favorably without distancing himself too far from the base.

Well, sure. If you criticize our war, you hate our troops. If you criticize our handling of the economy, you hate our workers.

At least it's consistent!

flstf · 09-19-2008, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Well, sure. If you criticize our war, you hate our troops. If you criticize our handling of the economy, you hate our workers.

At least it's consistent!

We know from past elections that this sort of rhetoric works with many voters. The Rove inspired campaigning is rather masterful in swaying public opinion. I am still amazed that the McCain camp's recent TV ad touting the maverick nature of their candidates states "Palin stopped the bridge to nowhere". They are taking something that should be a huge negative and changing the position 180 degrees to make a positive. The sad thing is that it probably works. I imagine by next week the anti-reform McCain will become the great government overseer who will reform Wall Street and save the economy.

filtherton · 09-19-2008, 02:15 PM

I think Obama should come out with an ad touting the fact that he helped raise the flag at Iwo Jima, that he was also the first astronaut, and the first person to fly solo across the Atlantic. It would work wonders on the dumbshits who are being swayed by the obvious lies that come out of McCain's mouth.

ratbastid · 09-19-2008, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf

They are taking something that should be a huge negative and changing the position 180 degrees to make a positive.

Fortunately, it appears that America is beginning to see as what it's sometimes also known as: lying.

guy44 · 09-20-2008, 09:22 AM

Luckily, Steve Benen (formerly of the Carpetbagger Repot, now of The Washington Monthly) has been keeping a list of John McCain's flip-flops. It currently totals 76.

Here's a sample:

Quote:

National Security Policy

1. McCain thought Bush’s warrantless-wiretap program circumvented the law; now he believes the opposite.

2. McCain insisted that everyone, even “terrible killers,” “the worst kind of scum of humanity,” and detainees at Guantanamo Bay, “deserve to have some adjudication of their cases,” even if that means “releasing some of them.” McCain now believes the opposite.

Foreign Policy

7. McCain was for kicking Russia out of the G8 before he was against it. Now, he’s for it again.

8. McCain supported moving “towards normalization of relations” with Cuba. Now he believes the opposite.

Military Policy

14. McCain recently claimed that he was the “greatest critic” of Rumsfeld’s failed Iraq policy. In December 2003, McCain praised the same strategy as “a mission accomplished.” In March 2004, he said, “I’m confident we’re on the right course.” In December 2005, he said, “Overall, I think a year from now, we will have made a fair amount of progress if we stay the course.”

15. McCain has changed his mind about a long-term U.S. military presence in Iraq on multiple occasions, concluding, on multiple occasions, that a Korea-like presence is both a good and a bad idea.

Domestic Policy

21. McCain defended “privatizing” Social Security. Now he says he’s against privatization (though he actually still supports it.)

22. On Social Security, McCain said he would not, under any circumstances, raise taxes. Soon after, asked about a possible increase in the payroll tax, McCain said there’s “nothing that’s off the table.”

Economic Policy

39. McCain was against Bush’s tax cuts for the very wealthy before he was for them.

40. John McCain initially argued that economics is not an area of expertise for him, saying, “I’m going to be honest: I know a lot less about economics than I do about military and foreign policy issues; I still need to be educated,” and “The issue of economics is not something I’ve understood as well as I should.” He now falsely denies ever having made these remarks and insists that he has a “very strong” understanding of economics.

Energy Policy

48. McCain supported the moratorium on coastal drilling ; now he’s against it.

49. McCain recently announced his strong opposition to a windfall-tax on oil company profits. Three weeks earlier, he was perfectly comfortable with the idea.

Immigration Policy

54. McCain was a co-sponsor of the DREAM Act, which would grant legal status to illegal immigrants’ kids who graduate from high school. In 2007, he announced his opposition to the bill. In 2008, McCain switched back.

55. On immigration policy in general, McCain announced in February 2008 that he would vote against his own bill.

Judicial Policy and the Rule of Law

57. McCain said he would “not impose a litmus test on any nominee.” He used to promise the opposite.

58. McCain’s position was that the telecoms should be forced to explain their role in the administration’s warrantless surveillance program as a condition for retroactive immunity. He used to believe the opposite.

Campaign, Ethics, and Lobbying Reform

62. McCain supported his own lobbying-reform legislation from 1997. Now he doesn’t.

63. In 2006, McCain sponsored legislation to require grassroots lobbying coalitions to reveal their financial donors. In 2007, after receiving “feedback” on the proposal, McCain told far-right activist groups that he opposes his own measure.

Politics and Associations

66. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist John Hagee. Now he doesn’t. (He also believes his endorsement from Hagee was both a good and bad idea.)

67. McCain wanted political support from radical televangelist Rod Parsley. Now he doesn’t.

Necrosis · 09-26-2008, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flstf
They are taking something that should be a huge negative and changing the position 180 degrees to make a positive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ratbastid

Fortunately, it appears that America is beginning to see as what it's sometimes also known as: lying.

Do you use the same word when you hear Obama presenting himself as a tax-cutter? On Sunday, he stated that he would cut taxes for 95% of Americans. On Tuesday, the polls must not have satisfied him, because he promised a tax credit to many people as well. While supposedly being aware of the current state of the economy.

McCain may admit he's weak on the economy, but Obama is clueless if he thinks he can raise the taxes on 5% of the people enough to even make a difference.

Or he's lying.

flstf · 09-26-2008, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrosis

Do you use the same word when you hear Obama presenting himself as a tax-cutter? On Sunday, he stated that he would cut taxes for 95% of Americans. On Tuesday, the polls must not have satisfied him, because he promised a tax credit to many people as well. While supposedly being aware of the current state of the economy.

McCain may admit he's weak on the economy, but Obama is clueless if he thinks he can raise the taxes on 5% of the people enough to even make a difference.

Or he's lying.

You have a point but I believe that Obama really wants to reduce taxes for the middle class and give credits to the poor. At least he has a position that is a possibillity that I would not characterize as an out and out lie. I will believe it when I see it.

However there is no other way to interpret what the McCain campaign says about Palin's position on the bridge. It would be more accurate for her to say "I was for it until the country became outraged and I am now against it".
On September 20, 2006, Sarah Palin visited Ketchikan on her gubernatorial campaign and said the bridge was essential for the town's prosperity.

guy44 · 09-28-2008, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Necrosis

Do you use the same word when you hear Obama presenting himself as a tax-cutter? On Sunday, he stated that he would cut taxes for 95% of Americans. On Tuesday, the polls must not have satisfied him, because he promised a tax credit to many people as well. While supposedly being aware of the current state of the economy.

McCain may admit he's weak on the economy, but Obama is clueless if he thinks he can raise the taxes on 5% of the people enough to even make a difference.

Or he's lying.

I'm confused. Obama promised tax cuts to most Americans. According to you, he also proposed a new tax credit to Americans. But you claim that these promises somehow contradict the claim that Obama is a tax-cutter. How's that work?

mcgeedo · 09-29-2008, 06:54 AM

I'm confused, too. When Obama promised a tax cut for "95 percent of the people," was he aware that only about 60 percent of the people pay taxes at all? Did he mean 95 percent of the 60 percent, or did he mean that 35 percent of the people are gonna gtet a check for nothing? Or is he just clueless?

Also, FYI: there are a few sites keeping track of Obama's flip-flops, too.

Jozrael · 09-29-2008, 06:57 AM

Actually, I believe the words he used were 95% of taxpayers.

And that's how he's doing it.

As an additional note, I'm pretty sure even the poorest of Americans pays taxes (assuming he makes more than 500 a year). Just they're pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things (though I'm sure they don't appear that way to him).

Poppinjay · 09-29-2008, 07:28 AM

Quote:

I'm confused, too. When Obama promised a tax cut for "95 percent of the people," was he aware that only about 60 percent of the people pay taxes at all? Did he mean 95 percent of the 60 percent, or did he mean that 35 percent of the people are gonna gtet a check for nothing? Or is he just clueless?

Who's clueless? The IRS reports that about 68% pay income taxes with their federal returns. ALL working citizens (native Americans on reservations are exempt) pay taxes into social security, FICA, and other goodies. It's just that the poor are more likely to be OVERCHARGED throughout the year, so they get a refund. Additionally, people with ongoing asset expenditures get refunds, usually.

So that basically means the overwhelming majority in this country are either too poor to owe on April 15, or do not have the assets to avoid paying on April 15. Piss poor record.

09-29-2008, 06:57 AM	#22 (permalink)
Jozrael Junkie	Actually, I believe the words he used were 95% of taxpayers. And that's how he's doing it. As an additional note, I'm pretty sure even the poorest of Americans pays taxes (assuming he makes more than 500 a year). Just they're pretty insignificant in the grand scheme of things (though I'm sure they don't appear that way to him). Last edited by Jozrael; 09-29-2008 at 07:00 AM..

09-18-2008, 03:16 PM	#2 (permalink)
Rekna Junkie	McCain messed up. It sounds like he didn't know that Zapatero was the president of Spain, then after the reported informed him of that it sounded like he thought Spain was part of Latin America and lumped Zapatero with Chavez. McCain is already hurting with Latin Americans and this most definitely wont help.

09-18-2008, 03:21 PM	#3 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	This is the kind of thing that supports the idea that he may be becoming incontinent due to age. Many, many times he has made incredibly odd slips that go beyond the explanation of normal confusion. I originally attributed it to a combination of having to change all of his positions to win and stress, but I'm not so sure.

09-18-2008, 06:17 PM	#4 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	Grandpa forgot where Spain is. It's been a bad week for Grandpa. Wonder what will happen to him tomorrow?

09-19-2008, 10:49 AM	#10 (permalink)
guyy Addict Location: Cottage Grove, Wisconsin	It sounds to me like he doesn't know where Spain is. The interviewer tells him she is shifting the topic to Spain, reminds him again that they are discussing Spain, then tells him Spain is in Europe, but he still doesn't get it. He doesn't sound right in the interview. Aside from the confusion, he sounds a little down and distracted.

09-19-2008, 02:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think Obama should come out with an ad touting the fact that he helped raise the flag at Iwo Jima, that he was also the first astronaut, and the first person to fly solo across the Atlantic. It would work wonders on the dumbshits who are being swayed by the obvious lies that come out of McCain's mouth.

09-29-2008, 06:54 AM	#21 (permalink)
mcgeedo Crazy	I'm confused, too. When Obama promised a tax cut for "95 percent of the people," was he aware that only about 60 percent of the people pay taxes at all? Did he mean 95 percent of the 60 percent, or did he mean that 35 percent of the people are gonna gtet a check for nothing? Or is he just clueless? Also, FYI: there are a few sites keeping track of Obama's flip-flops, too.