09-10-2008, 07:35 PM | #1 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: the center of the multiverse
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"It's like a really bad Disney movie... "
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EDIT: Hmm. The BBcode doesn't seem to be working, eventhough I followed the instructions given by Halx. Last edited by Cynthetiq; 09-10-2008 at 07:46 PM.. Reason: fixed embed; strange, it's embedding but not allowing it for some reason |
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09-10-2008, 07:47 PM | #2 (permalink) |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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not on our end. it's on youtube's end.
as far as him saying something... wait.. he understands or has seen the actuary tables? really? 1 out of 3 chance? really?
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
09-10-2008, 07:58 PM | #3 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: the center of the multiverse
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But even if it's only, say, a 1 in 20 chance: the consequences of that possibility becoming a reality, and thus our country – the world, even! – ending up with a President Palin, makes even those low odds, alarming. I, too, want to know if Palin zealously believes that dinosaurs existed a mere 4,000 years ago. |
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09-10-2008, 08:10 PM | #4 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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While it's always a possibility, I'm not sold on the idea of the fear aspect of this. To me that's just stupidity in a glass.
__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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09-10-2008, 08:11 PM | #5 (permalink) |
eats puppies and shits rainbows
Location: An Area of Space Occupied by a Population, SC, USA
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This is just one more reason that Matt Damon is the man. He just asked the same question I ask of every political candidate.
It's good to know that an actor can actually not suck when giving political views, even if it is something that's on everybody's mind.
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It's a rare pleasure in this world to get your mind fucked. Usually it's just foreplay. M.B. Keene |
09-10-2008, 08:18 PM | #6 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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1 in 3? Is that Jason Bourne talking about his odds of being successful against the secret service?
McCain isn't that old. Hell, I would have a hard time with the non-stop campaigning and I'm not even 30. He will have the best medical care and he's healthier than a lot of people. |
09-10-2008, 08:26 PM | #7 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: the center of the multiverse
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Besides, my concern is not so much for the possibility of a President McCain, as it is for a President Palin. Here's another thing I'd like to know about Palin: Does she sincerely, ardently believe in the Rapture? Because if she does, that's even worse than her believing dinosaurs existed a mere 4,000 years ago. Why? Because, the world doesn't want a U.S. President, in charge of the world's most powerful military, who believes God is going to miraculously teleport her and her fellow fundamentalist Christians away from the earth, and thus sparing them of the Battle of Armageddon and its aftermath. |
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09-10-2008, 08:37 PM | #8 (permalink) |
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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I'll admit to being impressed that he is familiar with the actuarial table and understands it's significance to the election. McCain is 3 years away from the average lifespan of an American male, he does have some health problems, and he's applying for the most stressful job in the world. It matters.
I think it's clear which one wrote Good Will Hunting. |
09-10-2008, 08:56 PM | #9 (permalink) |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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First of all it's total bullshit that McCain is the oldest man to ever run for president.... Ronald Reagan was born 4 days after my now 97 year old grandmother.... his b-day was 2/6/11 my grandmother's b-day is 2/2/11. That made him 73, in 1984 when he ran for his second term, and almost 74 when he was sworn in for that term. A year older than McCain.
Both my grandfather's, were extreme alcoholics and one lived to be 86 after suffering a perforated ulcer Easter weekend 1986 at the age of 74. They said he was dead then. He pulled out, lived 14 more years smoking Camel non filters and never drank again. The other lived to be 76 and had had a stroke at age 70. Neither had great insurance, especially compared to what a president has. I believe McCain could be very sharp and healthy for quite some time, specially with the best medical care in the world. The last president to die in office was JFK. The last president to die of natural causes was FDR in his 4th term in 1945 and everyone knew he was going to die, that is why they chose Harry S Truman as his VP. Today, people age differently, we are ale to live longer, be active and productive well into our 60's and 70's. My grandmother and her friends were active well into their 80's. I take great umbrage and find it despicable this day and age for ANYONE to condemn a person based on age. To me, that is the same as passing judgment against someone because of their race, their religion, their sex, their sexual preference and so on. It is fucking disgusting and another reason for me to be truly disgusted and apathetic towards the Dem. Party I once loved. The Dem Party I supported and loved fought against ALL prejudice and discrimination..... Today, they use ageism the same way some use racism, sexism, homophobia and so on. You don't like McCain's politics and platform, fine...... but don't you dare fucking use his age against him. That would be like someone using Obama's race against him, Hillary or Palin's sex against them, Lieberman's religion against him, Barney Frank's sexual orientation against him. It's pathetic. BTW.... as my father used to tell me and it is apparent when studying all he recent presidents... the president is a figurehead, the true power lies in whom he places in his cabinet and how well his advisers advise him. It is still the president's decision, but 99% of the time it is on the advice of his advisers and thorough research as to how he may react. I personally believe McCain will put in his cabinet far more qualified and better people than Obama.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 09-10-2008 at 09:01 PM.. |
09-10-2008, 08:56 PM | #10 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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Again, I'm more worried about what Mr. McCain/Obama will do as opposed to what the VP will do. While it is a possibility the focus of the prize is really who sits there first and foremost
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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09-10-2008, 09:11 PM | #11 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I don't hear as many people say "Obama will have a bullseye on him from some nutcase because of his race", which is just as much if not more a possibility than McCain dying in office. VOTE FOR WHOM YOU BELIEVE WILL DO THE BEST JOB AND HAVE THE MOST QUALIFIED AND BEST PEOPLE IN THEIR FIELDS SURROUNDING THEM.... DON'T VOTE AGAINST SOMEONE SIMPLY BECAUSE OF THEIR AGE, RACE, SEX, SEX ORIENTATION, RELIGION AND SO ON. If we all do the above, then I truly believe the best candidate in this year's field will win. If we vote due to our prejudices and biased fears based on the individual and not his policies and platforms.... we will end up with the worst candidate.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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09-10-2008, 09:19 PM | #12 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: the center of the multiverse
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09-10-2008, 09:21 PM | #13 (permalink) | ||
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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09-10-2008, 09:26 PM | #14 (permalink) | ||||
... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.
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Look, the current (2008) average life span of an American male is about 3 years off for McCain. Couple that with the fact that he'll be in the most stressful job in the world and he has a long history of medical problems including cancer... Let's please not pretend that he's the picture of health and vitality, that would be very dishonest. Quote:
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09-10-2008, 09:31 PM | #15 (permalink) |
Psycho
Location: the center of the multiverse
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Well, we really don't know yet how good of a job McCain would do as President, should he be elected. But we're already getting a pretty good idea of what kind of people he would place in the field surrounding him, and perhaps even an idea of the sort of thought process he'd have choosing those people. Because, surely Palin isn't among the most qualified and best people for the job of Vice President. And so, we're left wondering why McCain even chose her, in the first place.
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09-10-2008, 09:35 PM | #16 (permalink) | ||
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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I have a news flash for you, ANY president can die in office. Bush I could have died and we'd have had Quayle.... now that was a person to fear. Clinton could have died or been impeached and we'd have had Tipper as first lady and with that power God only knows what she would have done with PMRC and censorship. Look at Bush II with Cheney, that man scares any sane person in the US and unfortunately, he did run the country.... LOL bad example.... Obama has Biden, who I like a lot but the more I read into him and his sons the more I realize how corrupt he may be. But I don't vote for the VP, never have or I would never have voted for Clinton. As it was in 2000, I voted for Nader because of a dislike for Gore. -----Added 11/9/2008 at 01 : 40 : 42----- Quote:
If you truly believe that Obama is the best candidate vote for him. I don't. I am not a great fan of McCain's but to me he is the better choice.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 09-10-2008 at 09:40 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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09-10-2008, 09:41 PM | #17 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: the center of the multiverse
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If I say "there's a good chance you'll die of cancer if you smoke cigarettes," I don't mean it's more than likely you will die of cancer from smoking cigarettes; I mean there's a significant (even if small) chance you will die from it; and, considering the consquences - i.e. death - it makes smoking cigarettes not worth that chance. Last edited by Cynosure; 09-10-2008 at 09:43 PM.. |
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09-10-2008, 09:44 PM | #18 (permalink) |
Pickles
Location: Shirt and Pants (NJ)
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My main concern with McCain dying isn't really with his age as it is with him having to have hunks of cancer chopped off his body every other week. The possibility of a candidate dying before his/her term is up and being replaced by a whack job is a real and legitimate concern.
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We Must Dissent. |
09-10-2008, 09:52 PM | #19 (permalink) | ||
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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Obama choosing Biden..... that is a puzzler, I have my theories on that but they are not for this thread. McCain choosing Palin, helps him get the Conservative, Religious Right that may have sat out if he had chosen say Lieberman. It also helps get some women's votes. But when the time comes, I see McCain pulling into his cabinet better qualified people than Obama. I truly believe McCain will surround himself not with cronies like Bush but be more independent with his choices like Clinton was. McCain may make Lieberman Secretary of the Treasury or something. He may jump the aisle and find someone like a Mario Cuomo for secretary of the Interior or whatever. Those would e nice choices and I do think Lieberman will most definitely be in his cabinet somewhere... Cuomo not so much but one can dream. -----Added 11/9/2008 at 01 : 59 : 06----- Quote:
Johnson did not like many of JFK's policies or platforms, but because he died in office and the nation started loving the man, Johnson pushed through a lot of those policies he didn't agree with. I think Palin would do her best if something happened to McCain to keep his platform alive. She would want the 2012 election and she is not going to go out and destroy the nation.... especially with a Democratic Congress. Biden on the other hand.... again I will save that for another thread. All I have to say here is Biden, IMHO has too much of an ego and would decide to run things his way.... which got him how many votes in the primaries?
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 09-10-2008 at 09:59 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
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09-10-2008, 10:23 PM | #20 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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The two most likely McCain cabinet members mentioned are former Sen. Phil Gramm, who is his chief economic adviser, as Sec of Treasury...which would mean more supply side economics focused on tax breaks for top taxpayers and corporations. And Randy Scheunamann, who is his top national security adviser, as his WH National Security Adviser.... Randy Scheunemann was the President of the Committee for the Liberation of Iraq, which was created by the Project for the New American Century (PNAC), of which he is a board member. He was Trent Lott's National Security Aide and was an advisor to U.S. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on Iraq. He is 2008 U.S. presidential candidate John McCain's foreign-policy aide.....more of the same neo-con foreign policy. Cuomo in a McCan cabinet? Poor Mario would have nightmares tonight if he heard that suggestion! Lieberman maybe, but I doubt you would see any other current senators in his cabinet....its hard to emphasize enough how many of his colleagues dislike the man personally, while campaiging for him publicly.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-10-2008 at 10:40 PM.. |
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09-10-2008, 10:33 PM | #21 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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In all honesty, I'd have loved to see Cuomo run in 2000, 2004 or this year. I have no doubt he would have won in 2000 or 2004 by landslide. This year unfortunately, as with McCain, his age would have become an issue.
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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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09-10-2008, 10:41 PM | #23 (permalink) |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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John F Kennedy died in office too. At the ripe old age of what, 45? 46?
Seriously, the age thing is getting old. On to the issues!
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"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
09-10-2008, 10:44 PM | #24 (permalink) |
Location: Washington DC
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IMO, potential cabinet members is an issue.
I would like to see both candidates lay out a list of potential names for the top positions.....State, Defense, Treasury, Attorney General, National Security Adviser.
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire |
09-10-2008, 10:51 PM | #25 (permalink) | |
Lennonite Priest
Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA
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That way we have some idea who we are getting in power.
__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" |
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09-11-2008, 12:33 AM | #26 (permalink) | |
All important elusive independent swing voter...
Location: People's Republic of KKKalifornia
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Any thoughts? Theories? DC, you have an inside track inside the Beltway. Any illuminations? What are the chances of a bipartisan or multipartisan cabinet for either candidate? Any chance Colin Powell gets picked up by either side for SECDEF or SECSTATE? I can't really think of anyone else at the moment for any of the positions. Maybe Eric Shinseki for SECDEF or something. It would be poetic justice to have him back. How about the Supreme Court for that matter? Will Ginsberg resign soon? Will there be any slots open for the next POTUS to appoint?
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"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but to the one that endures to the end." "Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!" - My recruiter |
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09-11-2008, 02:25 AM | #27 (permalink) |
Living in a Warmer Insanity
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico
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Well Stevens is 88, Ginsburg 75 and Scalia is 72. I think there a good chance in the next four years at least one appointment will be made.
McCain is old. Is it an issue? I wouldn't base my vote on his age. Hell he probably get better health care then 99% of the rest of the world. People made a big issue out of him not releasing his medical records. So? He seems to be trucking right along on the campaign trail. His moms in her 90's. People are living longer. I wouldn't let his age influence my vote. I actually might have voted for McCain 4 years ago. He's changed on many of the issues he stood for back then. Now he's either just saying what he thinks the base of his party wants or he's a Bush mini me. Either way I'm not voting for the guy.
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I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club |
09-11-2008, 04:38 AM | #28 (permalink) | |
Tilted Cat Head
Administrator
Location: Manhattan, NY
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My point still stands, you're looking at this from an ageism point of view. It doesn't matter how you wrap it or lawyer it out, it is ageist. Now you can rail against it even more to defend the position that you say you don't have, or just like your words are already doing so, admit that it is what it is, and move forward from it. To point to pan's post, it's definitely a possibility that ANY sitting president can die in office for any reasons, but one generally votes the top of the ticket.
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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. |
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09-11-2008, 05:49 AM | #29 (permalink) | |
Psycho
Location: the center of the multiverse
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Or I can start making absolute statements about you personally and your stance, as you are with me. But I choose neither one of those options. Instead, I'll simply no longer discuss the matter (with you, at least). |
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09-11-2008, 04:38 PM | #30 (permalink) | ||
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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Palin leaves open option of war with Russia - Yahoo! News
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09-11-2008, 05:38 PM | #31 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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read the frickin' interview. He posited as a premise for the qeustion that Georgia or Ukraine was admitted to NATO and THEN Russia invaded. As a NATO member we'd have some treaty obligations. Or do you think she should repudiate treaty obligations on national TV?
Sakes alive, read original docs, not the spin from the networks. They're trying to shock you - haven't you figured that out yet? Same old networks they have always been - you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig, you know. Quote:
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09-11-2008, 07:18 PM | #32 (permalink) |
immoral minority
Location: Back in Ohio
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I know, but she will have a problem in the debates if she answers like that. And there is no mention of diplomacy or working with our allies to put pressure on Russia. Economic sanctions is a pretty vague answer that probably wouldn't do very much to change their minds.
And while no one may be able to admit that we should back out of our obligations, I would hope they would really think about what will happen in the long term if we have to defend Georgia or another former soviet state against Russia. Is it really worth that much human life lost in war? |
09-12-2008, 02:37 AM | #33 (permalink) | |
Junkie
Location: Right here
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During his second term, Reagan was the first president ever to invoke the acting president clause of the 25th amendment during his cancer surgery. Later, his staff contemplated invoking the 25th amendment again because they thought he was becoming inept and inattentive. They thought he was losing his mind...now of course we know that he was suffering from the onset of Alzheimers. If you want to compare McCain's age to Reagan's age during his 2nd term, I guess it's your choice but history undermines any argument that it's a good idea to put 70+ presidents in office.
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"The theory of a free press is that truth will emerge from free discussion, not that it will be presented perfectly and instantly in any one account." -- Walter Lippmann "You measure democracy by the freedom it gives its dissidents, not the freedom it gives its assimilated conformists." -- Abbie Hoffman |
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09-12-2008, 07:18 AM | #34 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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smooth, the US isn't the first country to have people in their 70s or even 80s in office, run for office. The point isn't generalizable from the small data set you're considering. I agree that Reagan was showing signs of Alzheimer's setting in toward the end of his second term, but surely you know that aging is highly idiosyncratic. McCain's mother is 96 y.o. and still very vigorous. In fact, (under the heading of "hilarious stuff") I saw a posting somewhere (I forget where) with the title "who is older?" Underneath were two pictures - McCain's 96-y.o.-mother and Keith Richards. And McCain's mom looked much better.
-----Added 12/9/2008 at 11 : 19 : 49----- Oh, and ASU, if you read through the rest of her comments, she actually was careful not to commit to a military approach, only that it shouldn't be off the table. I'll grant you that she isn't fluid yet on foreign policy, and that she was to a large extent spitting back stuff she had memorized. Last edited by loquitur; 09-12-2008 at 07:19 AM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost |
09-12-2008, 08:09 AM | #35 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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This isn't the first time this has come up. McCain's father and grandfather died at 71 and 61 respectively. Does that factor in? Maybe the men in his family jump 10 years each generation and McCain has until 81.... I dunno.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
09-12-2008, 08:29 AM | #36 (permalink) |
Junkie
Location: NYC
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Baraka, I don't think it tells you anything necessarily about McCain (though it's suggestive), but it does remind you that just because someone got Alzheimer's at 68 doesn't mean everyone gets it at 68. These are individual things, and some people are fitter than others. I'm not a biologist or a doctor, and I'd certainly agree that older people have more medical issues than younger people, but it does not follow from that every person over 70 is at death's door. David ben-Gurion, for example, was active in politics until he was 82. Nelson Mandela was 77 when he was elected president of South Africa (and from what I understand he is still in good shape). The examples go on and on.
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09-12-2008, 08:57 AM | #37 (permalink) |
warrior bodhisattva
Super Moderator
Location: East-central Canada
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Yeah, I agree. Health issues didn't get Fidel Castro until he hit 82. And Robert Mugabe is 84.
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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot |
09-12-2008, 12:32 PM | #39 (permalink) | |
Une petite chou
Location: With All Your Base
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So, back to the OP, before everyone started on a tirade about age... Matt Damon is a trip.
He's not one I'd have suspected would open his mouth and be definitive about things... I agree that it's nice to see celebrities questioning things like those of us in "real life" without screaming at each other. DOES Palin believe that dinosaurs existed?
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Here's how life works: you either get to ask for an apology or you get to shoot people. Not both. House Quote:
The question isn’t who is going to let me; it’s who is going to stop me. Ayn Rand
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09-12-2008, 01:50 PM | #40 (permalink) | |
Location: Washington DC
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In a debate when running for governor, she said creationism should be taught alongside evolution...then later backtracked a bit:
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Without any specific personal endorsements of teaching creationism (other than the one above, including the limited "retraction)...to hold her accountable for the positions of the church she attends would be the same as holding Obama accountable for the the positions of his church. But yes, personally, I think she believes that dinosaurs lived along side Adam and Eve and she would feel right at home at the Creation Museum where she could "travel back 6,000 years to the dawn of creation" through Disney-like movies!
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"The perfect is the enemy of the good." ~ Voltaire Last edited by dc_dux; 09-12-2008 at 02:08 PM.. |
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