Cynosure

I find this kind of talk extremely disturbing, especially when coming from a potential Vice President...

The rest of this article can be found here: Palin: Iraq war 'a task that is from God' - Yahoo! News

If you believe in the Christian God, how can you even think that He is in favor of a war that was founded upon so much misinformation, if not upon outright lies? How can you continue to support a war, and continue to believe that it is God's will, when the leaders of that war condone torture, and the war itself has been exposed to be rife with corporate favortism, profiteering, and corruption? If God is with us, in this war, then why is our nation having to go so deeply into debt to finance it, borrowing massive amounts of money from foreign nations who are out fierce competitors and may even someday be opposed against us? If this is God's will and a just cause, why are we having to recycle our troops, again and again, pushing them past the brink of mental/emotional exhaustion and bringing great anguish upon themselves and their families? (No wonder, suicide among our troops is at an all-time high.)

And if you don't believe in the Christian God – or in any God, for that matter – then Palin's words and beliefs should be even more disturbing, to you.

Rekna

I believe in God and I hate it when people claim something is God's will. The bible is clear, if you say something is from God and it is not then it is from Satin. When the religious nuts get up and say something will happen because God wills it and it doesn't I always wonder if they think about this verse.... I know their listeners don't.

ottopilot

I find this kind of talk extremely disturbing, especially when coming from a potential President...

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

fresnelly

What's the verse?

'm not challenging you here, I'm just curious and would like to read it.

__________________
Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

LoganSnake

Religion has no place in politics. Any time Christian God is brought up, it is extremely disturbing.

__________________
Maturity is knowing you were an idiot in the past. Wisdom is knowing that you'll be an idiot in the future. Common sense is knowing that you should try not to be an idiot now. - J. Jacques

Baraka_Guru

Why do you say that? You don't want a president that guards against pride and despair and has the wisdom to do what is right and just?

Or are you simply stating that you expect a president of the United States to be an atheist as a requirement?

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ratbastid

Well, it's even worse in the context of what she's actually TALKING ABOUT.

To the Muslim residents of the middle east, suggestions that Western incursion into their lands and sovereignty is the divine will of a Christian god is a direct reference to the Crusades, and is deeply deeply offensive. This kind of talk is directly inflammatory, and she doesn't even know it.

Cynosure

That a President of the U.S. is a believer in God, and him wanting to be an instrument of God's will, is nothing new. There have been plenty of Presidents like that, throughout this nation's history. (Why, our very first President was like that.)

So, I don't find it disturbing just because a President or a Presidential candidate believes in God and wants to do His will. No, my argument here is more manifold than that.

I do like the first parts of Obama's prayer: "Forgive me my sins and help me guard against pride and despair. Give me the wisdom to do what is right and just."

ratbastid

I'm trying to figure out why. Too humble?

Bush took his will and wrapped it in God-talk. That's a different thing.

Aladdin Sane

The AP reports the Palin quote as "Our national leaders are sending them out on a task that is from God," she said. "That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that plan is God's plan."
This quote starts in Palin's mid-sentence. The AP piece is a hatchet job and is intended to make Gov. Palin a scary religious nut.

Here's Palin's actual quote:

“Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending [U.S. soldiers] out on a task that is from God,” she exhorted the congregants. “That’s what we have to make sure that we’re praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God’s plan.”

Even the leftwing Huffington Post has the entire quote in context and the actual video. See the video with the quote in context at Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview. The money part runs from about 5:30 to 6:15.

Let the slime fest begin.

__________________
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.

Baraka_Guru

The insurgents fighting back in Iraq and Afghanistan are saying similar things to what Palin has said here.

EDIT:
Well, then. So it is.

I'll reread the Orwell quotation in my signature....

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

ottopilot

I don't believe that at all... I just want to illustrate how easily we can escalate such claims or false perceptions with context biased factoids and distortions. I bet that if inclined, I could find all sorts of eye-brow raising religious "news" on any of these nominees.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Baraka_Guru

Fair enough. I simply found your reaction to the Obama snippet to be unjustly reactionary given the context (or lack thereof). Palin was at least contextualized to be speaking about the Iraq War. Obama, on the other hand, was at the Wailing Wall in Jerusalem. A bit different, no?

Or were you just making a point? (Re: biased factoids and distortions.)

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Cynosure

Even with the entire quote, I do not feel a bit less disturbed. Palin was not exhorting her audience to pray for insight and wisdom, to know whether or not the Iraq war is God's plan. No, she was exhorting them to pray that the Iraq war is God's plan.

That, my friends, is the exhortations of fanaticism.

roachboy

so is the idea that because, for whatever reasons, this nitwit discourse referring to "god" or "special missions" from the Commander of the Divine Spaceship is an element in the degenerate field of american political discourse, then no use of it is of any more or less weight than any other?

isn't that to simply exclude sarah palin's actual positions from consideration, to reduce her to just another pronoun at the beginning of a sentence?

because if you don't do that, then the comparison to obama makes no sense.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ottopilot

Yes... let's not forget Jeremiah Wright. Unfortunate business, but there it was.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

Leto

the fact that the Muslim god and the Christian god are one and the same leads me to believe that Western incursion is more of a power play based on economics and spheres of control, rather than one-up-gods-ship. Same goes for the crusades of yore.

aceventura3

Perhaps it does not matter that the "word of God" is a persons support of a war but the underlying principle that leads them to the support of the war. Both sides of a conflict can use the "word of God" as support for war, but what we really need is to take the next step and dig a bit deeper to understand the principles leading to the support of the war. So, if one group believes that God wants a certain other groups of people removed from the face of the earth or converted, and then another group believes that God wants people to live in freedom and that the strong is obligated to protect the weak - perhaps even those that don't believe there is a God could make a determination on which group is right and which group wrong if the two groups are engaged in a war.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

IMO, a person of faith in the WH is, for the most part, a good thing. The power is enormous and remaining grounded is essential.

It is when that person uses that faith, rather than facts on the ground or the geopolitically reality, that it becomes dangerous:
Of course, the WH denied such conversation ever took place and we will never know for sure.

But the possibility of developing and implementing such a foreign policy based on the word of God is frightening.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

abaya

This is such an extreme over-simplification of the whole situation (not to mention being fervently biased in one direction), I don't even know where to start--or whether I really want to, knowing that absolutely zero that I say will be actually heard and considered, other than to look for something to exploit in my answer.

Don't get me wrong--I am not on either side of this war--but you simply cannot take thousands of years of history and politics and write a nice little sentence to boil it all down to make sense with one particular worldview. No.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

dc_dux

This exchange with Bob Woodward in his book "Plan of Attack" is marginally better:

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynosure

Nothing short of a literal burning bush, parting of the sea, and pillar of fire should lead one into believing that a war – a war, resulting in death and suffering on a massive scale! – is God's will. In other words: a still, quiet voice in the back of your mind, and the belief that it's God talking to you, shouldn't be nearly enough to lead you into waging a war – especially if you and your allies somehow have vested interests in waging that war.

No, if you're a political leader and you're exhorting to me that it's God's will that we go to war, and that you are God's instrument in this matter, you'd better damn well have some miraclous, world shaking, irrefutable evidence to back your exhortations. Otherwise, leave God and His will out of anything you say about the matter.

ottopilot

Are you presenting Palin's statement to illustrate your concern for leaders that may employ their religious beliefs when making critical decisions regarding war or policy?

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

otto....again, its using religious beliefs, rather than facts on the ground or the geopolitics of the day, to make a policy decision.

The bible is not a foreign policy document.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

ottopilot

I understand, but you know where this is going.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

aceventura3

When you say "simplification of the whole situation", I doubt you understand my point. My comment was not related to a specific situation, but the nature of most wars in human history. Generally there is an aggressor who wants to remove a group of people from existence or convert them (to whatever - religion, political, way of life, economic, forced labor, etc) and you have another side fighting for freedom, security, the weak. There have been conflicts between parties with the same motive of removing the other group from the face of the earth, but generally history shows there was a right and a wrong, at least measured by our common moral standards.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 11 : 56 : 59-----
So, what was the point?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Cynosure

I am concerned about religious fanatics and zealots involved in politics, yes. But I am even more concerned about political leaders whose true motives and machinations are cloaked in religious beliefs and posturings.

aceventura3

If you do things (or avoid doing things) based on your principles, what difference does it make it you attribute your principles to God, a little invisible man on your shoulder, or a rag doll in your closet. The point is to understand your guiding principles.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 12 : 04 : 36-----
What about the people like Mother Teresa who felt she had an obligation from God to help people? Is she a religious fanatic? How do you measure it? Everyone has some basis upon which they make moral or value decisions, for those who don't use their religious teachings, what do they use? why is what they use better or worse than the use of religion?

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

dc_dux

IMO, a political leader who does not balance his/her ideology or guiding principles with the facts is dangerous.

I believe that has been the case with Bush and would be with Palin.

Mother Teresa was not a political leader.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Rekna

Deuteronomy 18:21-22 (New International Version)

So here it says that if someone claims a prophesy that is not true then they are a false prophet. Look up what the bible says about false prophets and you will see that it is not very generous to them.

Cynosure

The difference, of course, is when you try to convice other people of your principles, or even worse, force your principles upon them. When doing so, it's one thing to say, "And these principles of mine are founded upon my own learnings and understandings," and another thing entirely to say "And these principles of mine were given from God, and it is His will that you follow them as well." All the more so, when we're talking about something as world shaking as engaging in a full-scale war.

Whether or not Mother Teresa was a religious fanatic is beside the point. Mother Teresa saying God called upon her, personally, to live a life of servitude, to help out the poor and the wretched, is a HUGE difference from President George W. Bush saying God called upon him to lead the nation and its allies into a bloody war in Iraq.

aceventura3

Utilization of factual information is or can be a guiding principle.

Most reasonable people don't follow leaders for very long if facts don't support the message. Moses leading his people wondering in the desert may have been an exception.

I don't understand what you mean here.

Your view of political leadership differs from mine. Political leaders are not always those that have the title or those who are in an elected office.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

ottopilot

I understand completely, that's why I ask for caution in a rush to judgment on this issue. Obama recently suffered through the Rev. Jeremiah Wright scandal... and for the most part it has subsided. But for the very reasons you state regarding motives and machinations, there is a big can of worms just waiting to be re-opened by the opposition regarding Obama's judgment. Is it being influenced by his church doctrine, his spiritual leader, and Black Liberation Theology... or perhaps his involvement with William Ayers, Public Allies, and the teachings of Saul Alinsky?

There is a thread on TFP Politics entitled Rev Jeremiah Wright - or WRONG? that thoroughly covered similar concerns in all the most painful ways. I'd hate to see this discussion fall down that path.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

abaya

1) Excluding WWII (since we can agree on that), can you give me at least several examples of wars with an unquestionable distinction of right vs. wrong?

2) What "common moral standards" are you referring to? I know of many, many different moral standards across the world, and even within the singular boundary of the United States... and even just a handful of them would beg to differ with you on what constitutes their "common moral standard."

2) What "history" do you refer to? The one written by the winners or the losers (to keep it simple)? It's really just not that simple to talk about what "history" shows anyone, without providing at least the author, the date, the context in which that history was written, because all of those things affect "history" as it is written and interpreted. People who study "history" professionally know this--they get PhD's in it--and they still don't always know what "history" shows us--it's just too damn subjective, especially when it comes down to moral issues of "right" vs. "wrong."

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

roachboy

ace:

i'd go further than abaya on the last point.

"history" shows nothing.
what histories show is what the judgments of the people who gather, organize and interpret information about the past.
"history" is not a morality play.
try again.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

abaya

Seriously. Last I recall, Mother Teresa didn't have anyone killed/sent to kill others as a result of her belief in God.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

aceventura3

If I can change a person's core beliefs or their guiding principles - they deserve what they get. Bush could not convince me to support a war that I thought was wrong. He can't do it to you. why do you assume he can do it to others?


I disagree. I believe there is right and wrong. I believe some are predisposed to do what Mother Teresa did and others are predisposed to fight, and if the fight is against evil then it is good.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 12 : 32 : 59-----
People fought and people died so that she had the opportunity to do what she did. She helped people who would "fight" in their own ways for what was right. I think she probably understood those concepts and may have prayed to God to give those people guidance.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

abaya

That would make a good screenplay.
-----Added 5/9/2008 at 12 : 35 : 52-----
What facts are you basing these statements on?

I'd still like to hear your answer to my previous questions.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

aceventura3

I am sorry, but if you don't think knowledge of the past is real, "shows" us, gives us an opportunity not to repeat errors, I don't know what to say. I study history, I try to understand it, I try to learn from it, I try to apply the lessons from history. If I am unique in that regard, the so be it.

__________________
"Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on lunch."
"It is useless for the sheep to pass resolutions on vegetarianism while the wolf is of a different opinion."
"If you live among wolves you have to act like one."
"A lady screams at the mouse but smiles at the wolf. A gentleman is a wolf who sends flowers."

Cynosure

Exhibit A: The re-election of George W. Bush and his administration, in 2004.

Even then, the growing concensus (at least, among the inquiring and the informed) was that the Iraq War was founded on misinformation, and that the war was perhaps wrong. But an awful lot of people who re-elected Bush disregarded all that and continued to support the Bush administration and its war, while others who re-elected him thought along the lines of, "Well, I disagree with this war, but I continue to support our troops, and I believe Bush is the one who can get us out of this mess."