jewels

Sheesh. Now that I've read all of Cyn's responses, I'm not sure why everyone's up in arms. Cyn's never minimized the crime of rape itself. I think his only error was mentioning Tawana way back. I know that raised my back for a while.

But what I believe I'm hearing is this: We're in this financial crisis. People can't buy or sell real estate. Property taxes are a huge factor. US and state governments have been privatizing for years, i.e. USPO, Florida's toll systems. Florida's budget has been cut by millions, thanks to the voters here who chose to back the $200 annual property tax cut, which is forcing the closure of County parks, loss of jobs, transportation and other service cuts (multiply that $200 break by how many homes in the State?). Police and fire departments have been cut as well, at least in South Florida. For a lousy $200.

Every state agency, every county and every city receiving funding sat down for hours and hours to determine what would get cut. I heard some of our (Broward) County Commission meetings, and it wasn't easy. It's great to read the paper and declare what a bunch of assholes they were to cut certain programs, but it's not so easy to weigh them and play fair.

With this economic crunch, we might need to find alternative means to pay for some things so we can maintain the police and fire department. Would we cut staff to buy rape kits or should we keep everyone on payroll in case we need them? These are the decisions we're talking about.

Rape is a horrific crime. Hang 'em high. But the rape kit must be paid for. If a State budget is cut and if we don't want to bill the victim, what should we do? Lay off some cops so we can buy rape kits? What options do we have? Is privatization a viable option?

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

Rekna

How about we cut that $40,000 in per diem the govern of Alaska gets every year to stay in her own home that is more than twice what would be required for Wassilla. Or how about all that money they used to fly her family around. Or if we want to make this a local thing how about the millions of dollars Wassila paid for a hockey stadium with heated seats. My point is there is lots of things that should be cut before cutting things like rape kits.
-----Added 23/9/2008 at 07 : 55 : 45-----
Wasilla to get new sports complex | Construction > Construction Overview from AllBusiness.com

There you have it 14.7 million on a hockey stadium for a city with the size of 8,000 people. They could invest this money at a low 3% interest and get $441,000 a year more than 20 times what would be needed to cover the rape kits. The money we are talking about for these rape kits is a non-argument.

filtherton

We're not in a financial crisis. The fundamentals of the economy are strong.

Paq

why not charge the perpetrator...or make the fines so expensive as to cover the cost of the rape kits..

and rekna said it best..this wasn't a town that 'needed to make necessary cuts' when they are spending like they were. sorry, no way, no how, no mccain..err, whatever

__________________
Live.

Chris

Cynthetiq

you guys again, sit and stare at the trees and can't see the forest.

I don't care about the victim vs. victimless crimes. There are costs plain and simple. If there are costs, then who pays for it? where do those monies come from? I never said there should be restrictions on anything. I asked the fucking REAL question. I never said it shouldn't be provided. I asked WHO WILL PAY FOR IT IF THE GOVERNMENT PROGRAM WILL NOT.

PLEASE PEOPLE LEARN TO READ.

But again, you all would rather troll for blood on something to make yourselves feel better at night.

As Lennon says, "Whatever gets you through the night..."
-----Added 23/9/2008 at 11 : 41 : 54-----
thank you.
-----Added 23/9/2008 at 11 : 43 : 13-----
do you understand how per diem works? It's still CHEAPER than paying for her to stay in a hotel which she is entitled to stay while on government business.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

hannukah harry

i think the point that a lot of people have tried to make, and have said many times (without re-reading the thread), is that the govt. should pay for rape kits. there is no question of who should pay for it. the govt. (be it local, state or federal) should.

__________________
shabbat shalom, mother fucker! - the hebrew hammer

dc_dux

Sorry...but I just dont buy it.

WHY DO YOU THINK YOU PAY STATE AND LOCAL INCOME TAXES ....if not for basic government services, like enforcing the law and prosecuting offenders.

I understand that many cities are facing serious budget shortfalls and making tough decisions.

I also know that there are many ways to cut local budgets, including police department budgets, w/o putting funding for the investigation and prosecuting of violent crimes on the table.

Cyn...your fucking real question just doesnt make sense to me under any circumstances.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

It may not make sense to you, but look it happened in Alaska. The government said, No we're not paying for that. So the next thing to ask is, well it needs to be paid for, who will pay for it? You can rail all you want that the government should pay for it, but what if the law didn't get passed? The question would still need to be answered.

It may not be something that makes sense to you, there's lots of things in the world that don't make sense to me, that's part of life, welcome to humanity.

In this case there was a new law that forced the government to perform, in the future, will they still have to perform? I'm going to say, maybe not. Why? Because other countries, who have poverty, graft, and corruption in government services don't get these services, why am I expecting that the USA will be much different than these other as it continues?

I'm not predicting doomsday that it will forever be that way, but in the realm of 50 states, this vast country, I'd say that in 1% of our country it has to be a possibility.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

As far as I know, it happened in ONE city in Alaska..and at a time when the VP nominee was the mayor of that city....and by any measure, that city was not among the most cash-strapped cities in the state.

There was no new law to force the city to perform.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

And isn't it all it takes to ASK that question?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

Now I'm lost.

What question?

I can understanding questioning how to fund a new municipal golf course or a new wing to the library or snow removal services or...

I just dont know many cities that would ask that question about funding for the investigation and prosecuting of violent crimes against its citizens....other than Wasllla, AK, when Palin was mayor.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that a federal law was passed that made them have to be compliant for federal funding. Isn't that you posted earlier?
So again, if that DID NOT PASS, then again, the question would still be needed to be answered.

And again, fiscal stewards get to choose how to generate revenue (tax) and pay expenses (spend). It's rather simple.

States get to pick how they deal with the federal level type stuff on some local levels, compliance in some manner, yet thumb in the eye in another.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

VAWA imposed no requirement. It established conditions to receive broader funding.

And I still get back to the fact I just dont know many cities (and I have worked with alot of cities) that would ask that question about funding for the investigation and prosecuting of violent crimes against its citizens....other than Wasllla, AK, when Palin was mayor.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

you guys are like broken records.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

We agree to disagree.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

that's the problem dc. I'm not disagree with anyone. I'm asking the simple question, but no one is interested in actually doing the diligence.

"it's not any real money..." "cut per diem spending" "many other things to cut"

but you know what... this was the discussion, this was what was affected. FACT. not supposition, not guess work, no it is the REALITY.

Here is where I diverge from the rest of you folk. I'm not interested in the decrying and emotional gnashing of the teeth. I'm interested in the operational fiscal responsiblity and stewardship of a multimillion dollar budget.

You disagree with me on what? What is it that I'm saying that you disagree with? That I'm asking where the funds are going to come from for ANY program?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

dc_dux

cyn....we are not talking about ANY program.

I've worked directly with cities and states for 15 years and I have never heard any local or state official ever ask the question about funding for the investigation and prosecution of violent crimes. IT IS A GIVEN that it is a government responsibility.

In your own words....you are sounding like a broken record.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Boo

There is more to the story of the sports complex in Wasilla. The people wanted it, voted on it and got it. The people bear the burdon of debt. The mayor just helped it along. Many kids (and adults) will find a better life because of it. What the media has "conveniently left out" is that the sports complex is used by residents of Palmer, Willow, Houston, Big Lake, Knik, Butte, etc... basically the entire Mat-su Borough..... only the size of West Virginia.

Matanuska-Susitna Borough: Living in the Mat-Su Borough

I don't think anyone knows the true population... too many remote areas and people that don't want to advertise their presence.

Matanuska-Susitna Borough:

Is that enough people to warrant a heated seat?

Saying that the mayor left the town in debt is a half truth at best. Media spin or ?

Per Diem - Sarah used her home in Wasilla as her second home. She claimed her residence in juneau as her primary. I would believe that most governors use the governors mansion as their primary. Juneau is a more expensive area to live so I would believe that the per diem rate would be higher there. I also believe that the number of days that she spent in Wasilla was smaller.
My math says that she utilized the benefits afforded Alaskas governor to minimize the actual cost to the state. Many Alaskans believe that the capital should be moved closed to the population anyway.

Wasilla is growing rapidly. Short construction seasons, lack of roads, schools, etc will continue to be problematic for at least a few more years. When the pipeline starts and the prison is complete, watch the population.

I have not heard the local theory about the rape kits. Small rumors are around, none seem credible.

I go to Wasilla most Thursdays, I will keep my ears open.

__________________
Back button again, I must be getting old.

Rekna

Won't the prison be empty because victims will have to pay for there own investigations?

Boo

Alaska currently outsources out warehousing of prisoners to the lower 48. It is expensive. Transportation is a huge expense.

I do appreciate your sarcasm. I like to believe that most people are most critical of things that they don't understand.

__________________
Back button again, I must be getting old.

Cynthetiq

Because you aren't addressing what I'm asking. You're passing by it. Again. Again. And, again.

There are lots of supposedly GIVEN that is supposed to be government responsibility. I've not challenged that at all. As fiscal needs are NOT MET by the income of the tax base, there are costs that are going to have to be met by other means. This can be by deficit spending (many cities or states cannot do this), drawing on reserves, raising taxes, or cut expenditures. All I have asked is to SAY what or who needs to happen to pay for things. Spending more than you take in and drawing on reserves to cover the shortfalls doesn't work long term. People have decried cutting the spending, so all that is left is raising taxes. If you believe it's RAISE TAXES in some fashion in order to do so, then by all means say so. Or is that too difficult to say, or admit needs to happen? Don't want to be the guy to say the words, raise taxes, because I'm all for it since my broken record hasn't changed for fiscal responsibility.

But you'd rather cop out and "agree to disagree". Again, can you tell me what you are agreeing to disagree on? Specifically what am I saying that you disagree?

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

jorgelito

Forget it Cyn, they're just looking for an excuse to bash Palin.

__________________
"The race is not always to the swift, nor battle to the strong, but
to the one that endures to the end."

"Demand more from yourself, more than anyone else could ever ask!"

- My recruiter

jewels

The point is that the times are trying the "given".

As much as we don't want to hear it, some governments, local and otherwise, have begun extreme cutbacks. If it comes down to laying off cops or passing along the cost of the rape kits, hopefully the cops can keep their jobs and we can find another way to cover the cost of them.'

Instead of saying it can't happen, 'cause it just might, can't we all get together and figure out a way to pass the cost along fairly? If it was YOUR city and you had to decide whether or not to lay off some cops, how would you handle it?

I think we're trying to work towards bipartisanship here. Let's let go of the pitbull mentality and see if it's really plausible to work together towards a solution, without being blinded by the irrelevant.

I ask again, how would you handle this situation?

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

dc_dux

Thats a very helpful contribution to the discussion....from one who suggested the need to stop with the condescending posts.


Jewels....It is a given that some governmental functions at all levels are not "put on the table" when there are other programs that can be cut. It doesnt come down to laying off cops or paying for rape kits. It hasnt anywhere that I know of and, despite budget constraints that cities are facing, there is nothing to suggest that such a choice must be made anytime soon. There are always less extreme alternatives. Particularly with federal assistance in the mix.

Cyn.....IMO, your "fucking real question" would be like asking how the federal government should pay for a standing military and supply it with the basic necessities (not expensive new untested weapon systems) to perform its core function of protecting and defending the US.

It is not a "fuckng real world" question that is subject to discussion...like how to pay for trash collection or repair potholes. We are talking about a local government's primary responsibility to uphold the law and protect and defend its citizens. IT IS A GIVEN.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

roachboy

another problem is that many of the responses to your question, cyn, respond by implicitly saying your scenario is not good so far as they are concerned. over and over there are suggestions about other places where expenditures would be cut and the money used. you don't seem to want to recognize these as responses, for whatever reason, so you say they aren't responses. beneath this is a *political* evaluation about the matter of whether rape is a serious enough crime that ancillary servicese which are made available are worthwhile public expenditures, enough so that confronted with a scenario like yours, they *would not* make the same choice as you seem willing to make.

that's the problem.
i think alot of folk--myself included--are not willing to agree with what either is or appears to be a judgment that rape is less that serious which *has* to be in place for your conclusion to follow.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Charlatan

Bill is priming the pump for 2012.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Cynthetiq

It's not about RAPE. It isn't about RAPEKITS. This isn't about a victim vs. victimless crime. It is about there being a choice made like Mrs. Palin did. I've not ever once said "Pick this over that." I've only said, "This one wasn't being paid for, how will we pay for it?" I'm not making any choices or decisions to remove something. This is something that was removed by someone else.

So you're saying that people in this thread aren't willing to make a decision to look at how things are to be paid for? They just think there's is a money tree that grows and the government harvests bills from it?

Again, people are reading many extra words into my brief statement.

I've not disagreed that it shouldn't be the responsibility of the local governement to protect and defend it's citizens. I've just asked how to pay for such things? You keep saying it's a given. Expenditures may be pared down but at some point programs and services get hit, I am asking you should local governments raise taxes? You just keep saying, It's a GIVEN. So that answer is YES?

In the 70s when NYC was broke, the police force was at it's lowest levels. Crime was extra rampant, there were many unsolved cases. It's a given, they SHOULD have done more but again, the REALITY was they couldn't. The more taxes they raised the more business and residents fled the city further eroding the tax base.

You know what happened post 9/11 in NYC? They suspended plastic/glass/aluminum recycling for several years because while it's a GIVEN that the government should be taking care of it, but sometimes it can't.

But I'm still waiting to know what is it that you disagree with that I've said. Please specifically quote my post and highlight the words and sentences you are disagreeable to.

thanks. I think you are the only one here who understands what I'm talking about. I'd like to be all noble and say, "It's a given, just spend it." But that isn't reality, the tax bases are suffering and strained as it is. Further pushing more taxes onto people may cause the downturn to deepen.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

roachboy

personally, cyn, i reject your premise.
that's all there is to it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

jewels

BTW, regarding this term, given ...

It's defined as "assumed as actual or hypothetical".

I would assert that there is no given.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

ottopilot

Yep... interesting take... it's believable.

He's just a big smarty-pants! The Clintons are political energizer bunnies... they just keep going.
-----Added 24/9/2008 at 09 : 44 : 52-----
Yes, thanks for the sanity check.

__________________
"It rubs the lotion on Buffy, Jodi and Mr. French's skin" - Uncle Bill from Buffalo

dc_dux

ditto.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

ah, so the reality of paying for things and balanced budgets is outright rejected.

okay. got it.
-----Added 24/9/2008 at 10 : 14 : 03-----

correct. as we can see Mrs. Palin decided that it wasn't a given.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

filtherton

I don't think you actually get it.

Nobody here think that government has unlimited money, or that rape kits are free. I think what most people find facile is your insistence that your "Who's gonna pay for these rape kits?" is actually useful in the context of any sort of meaningful discussion on fiscal responsibility. Believe it or not, there are some things that people find more important than rigid adherence to specific accounting philosophies.

Who's gonna pay for it? Not the rape victim. Beyond that it doesn't fucking matter.

Cynthetiq

see again, shortsighted. I didn't limit it to RAPEKITS. but you read what you want and then interepret it as you see fit without the rest of the words surround it.

I get it. You, rb, and dc aren't interested in how the fiscal operations work. It's just a GIVEN that it should be collected and spent.

right, they don't adhere to ANY accounting philosophies or responsibility, which is why the feds have huge deficit spending, state and local governments have shortfalls to FY09 budgets calling for further expenditure cutss, personal credit has topped out, home equity was used as an ATM, am I missing something where money hasn't been squeezed out?

but I've been saying all this time,"someone needs to pay for the rapekits... it's raaaape... rapekits... need to pay for them!"

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Jozrael

I think it should be paid for via taxes. Increased taxes if need be.

Don't really see the big logical leap there (no offense intended, it just seems obvious to me).

roachboy

or it could be that you are trying to pose a general problem through an very bad example.

everyone does it from time to time, but not everyone then refuses to recognize the problems that are caused for the entire discussion by your poorly chosen, badly framed example and then compounds this by acting instead like the responses you are getting say something entirely alien to what anyone who rejects your premise is actually saying.


if you want to argue for "responsibility" maybe you should start with taking some for the problems with your own arguments.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

dc_dux

I'll try one more time.

Cyn...as I understand your reasoning, you are suggesting that the fiscal decisionmaking process is or should be same, regardless of whether the program in question is rape kits, trash collection, pot hole repair or summer parks programs.

I simply disagree.

__________________
"The perfect is the enemy of the good."
~ Voltaire

Cynthetiq

really? a few people do understand what I'm talking about, so it's not as far flung as you're characterizing.

I've tried to get more understanding but people flat out have stated you don't get it, I'm not explaining it to you. Great! Good communication for discussion there!

Closest you've come.

I'm not making it as clear cut as same program for program, service for service regardless since obviously some programs and services outweigh others, but in the absence of inability to communicate, I've had to pare it down to that point.

And, your answer is just that you disagree, novel really, maybe even quaint.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Rekna

Cyn since as you say "Palin made a decision" don't we also have the right to say we feel her decision was wrong and criticize her on it? That is the crux of the issue. Palin said no to rape kits either because she thought they cost to much (unlikely in my mind), she didn't like the fact that they come with plan B (likely in my mind), or some other reason. Many of feel this was a very bad decision on her part and feel it goes to her character and leadership abilities. We have every right to say we think she was wrong.

roachboy

here's the material you started with.

here's your premise:

the responses you are getting that you refuse to understand amount to a rejection of this statement.
everything you have done is about you trying to define the implications of this.
and most of the responses have come back to you saying that your frame is not acceptable, your attempts to define the notion of "fiscal responsibility" mis-state the situation, that there are other ways of thinking about and resolving this matter, even in principle---and because there are other ways of resolving it, playing around with the funding concerning these "rape kits" comes back to the matter of the political valence you assign rape victims.

THAT is the problem.
nothing you have said from within your arguments, the premise of which is fucked up, gets back to this level, which is the source of your problems.


then you said this:

at which point you framed yourself as speaking from the position of an ass.

but you are surprised at the responses to your line of argument.
and you're pissy about it.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite